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    S-70 "Okhotnik" UCAV

    LMFS
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    Post  LMFS Tue Mar 30, 2021 11:06 am

    By Acatomic:
    S-70 "Okhotnik" UCAV - Page 17 15879210
    GarryB wrote:
    If they intend to use non after burning engines then it would be purely subsonic only... which would mean why no use the engines currently being used... I doubt the difference in performance would be enormous and it would be a useful way of using these engines in current Su-57s that are to be replaced as soon as the new engine is deemed to be ready.

    What do you mean by "engines being currently used"? Izd. 117 is currently being used, but they need a version w/o AB so that needs to be created specifically for the Okhotnik. The izd. 117 has been taken to serial production and we hear about a new engine for the Flankers, so maybe it is going to be the baseline engine for the VKS. Of course it makes sense to use it rather than older AL-31F engines, it has a longer lifetime and much better performance, and the industrial base in Russia needs to move forward from engines created 40 years ago.
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    Post  TMA1 Tue Mar 30, 2021 12:26 pm

    Hole wrote:That "thingy" is a camera for the pilot (sort of). If the automatic start/landing sequence is maltfunctioning he has to take over - and must see what is in front of the drone.

    So I might be correct from earlier post that it is for landing, similar to the sensor on the left missile bay root sensor on the su-57?

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    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Wed Mar 31, 2021 4:06 am


    What do you mean by "engines being currently used"? Izd. 117 is currently being used, but they need a version w/o AB so that needs to be created specifically for the Okhotnik. The izd. 117 has been taken to serial production and we hear about a new engine for the Flankers, so maybe it is going to be the baseline engine for the VKS. Of course it makes sense to use it rather than older AL-31F engines, it has a longer lifetime and much better performance, and the industrial base in Russia needs to move forward from engines created 40 years ago.

    The Su-57 and S-70 currently use an engine and soon a new more powerful engine will be introduced to improve the performance of the Su-57.

    The difference in performance wont be relevant to the S-70 so why no use the currently used engines on the S-70 and put all the brand new engines in the new Su-57s and also any that have already been produced when they start making them.

    You don't need an expensive state of the art jet engine in a drone.

    You don't want to increase the cost of your drones with brand new expensive engines whose ABs are removed anyway.

    So I might be correct from earlier post that it is for landing, similar to the sensor on the left missile bay root sensor on the su-57?

    I would say they are cameras that are used for normal flight and landing and taking off and I rather suspect the version of the Su-57 that was fitted with similar cameras was probably so that it could be operated by the same ground station used to control the S-70s and use the same software with the same operator views.
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    Post  lancelot Wed Mar 31, 2021 8:53 am

    That is assuming the new engines are more expensive. They might be cheaper.
    The trend is towards machine controlled fabrication and 3d printing which means machine have less parts.
    Hence less assembly time and cheaper costs overall.
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    Post  LMFS Wed Mar 31, 2021 12:33 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    The Su-57 and S-70 currently use an engine and soon a new more powerful engine will be introduced to improve the performance of the Su-57.

    The difference in performance wont be relevant to the S-70 so why no use the currently used engines on the S-70 and put all the brand new engines in the new Su-57s and also any that have already been produced when they start making them.

    You don't need an expensive state of the art jet engine in a drone.

    You don't want to increase the cost of your drones with brand new expensive engines whose ABs are removed anyway.

    As far as I know that is precisely the plan, maybe not the part of "recycling" engines used in the Su-57, because those in the S-70 are a different version, but yeah, the Okhotnik will use the izd. 117, specifically the izd. 117BD

    https://iz.ru/1070737/anton-lavrov-aleksei-ramm/nashlis-okhotniki-voennye-poluchat-tiazhelye-bespilotnye-istrebiteli
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    Post  GarryB Thu Apr 01, 2021 4:00 am

    That is assuming the new engines are more expensive. They might be cheaper.
    The trend is towards machine controlled fabrication and 3d printing which means machine have less parts.
    Hence less assembly time and cheaper costs overall.

    If they plan to make them the standard engine in the Russian AF for Flanker type aircraft then they should become cheaper simply by numbers produced and standardisation of maintenance and design, but I would expect initially they will be more expensive with new and exotic materials.

    Keep in mind that a lot of innovation and development happens on the factory floor... new ways of making things that save time or reduce waste of raw materials... simplifying the steps needed to produce an item, or improve the quality of the item.

    When things are machine made there is less chance of new techniques being applied to improve performance, but obviously with machines doing all the work they can work longer and "harder"... you just need more supervisors... perhaps have three 8 hour shifts, or 6 four hour shifts.


    As far as I know that is precisely the plan, maybe not the part of "recycling" engines used in the Su-57, because those in the S-70 are a different version, but yeah, the Okhotnik will use the izd. 117, specifically the izd. 117BD

    My understanding was that the S-70 engine was just an Su-57 engine with the AB removed... a bit like a motor car engine used in a van and a car but with the van a turbocharger is fitted to boost power, while in the car the turbocharger is removed because it does not need the extra power... but both have the same engine otherwise which has advantages of spare parts commonality and using the same engine manual etc etc.

    Would also make sense if the S-70 is also operated by Su-30 and Su-35 aircraft also using the same engines.
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    Post  LMFS Thu Apr 01, 2021 6:54 pm

    GarryB wrote:My understanding was that the S-70 engine was just an Su-57 engine with the AB removed... a bit like a motor car engine used in a van and a car but with the van a turbocharger is fitted to boost power, while in the car the turbocharger is removed because it does not need the extra power... but both have the same engine otherwise which has advantages of spare parts commonality and using the same engine manual etc etc.

    Would also make sense if the S-70 is also operated by Su-30 and Su-35 aircraft also using the same engines.

    As far as I know such engines with and w/o AB are manufactured separately, I cannot imagine they do not need to be tuned and finished differently... it is still massive good to use the same gas generator and maybe even compressor and ancillaries in both versions, it will help so much on both the industry and operator sides
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    Post  GarryB Fri Apr 02, 2021 9:13 am

    I would think the difference would be minor... no AB section just simplifies the exhaust and means fuel does not need to be injected into the rear area of the engine... you still need the rear area where the hot core airflow mixes with the cold bypass airflow... there just isn't any direct fuel spray and ignition equipment there.

    The non afterburning Al-55 is used in the Yak-130... the afterburning version was suggested for a single seat light fighter version, so I would assume they were supposed to be interchangeable...
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    Post  LMFS Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:45 pm

    The Okhotnik strike drone will be delivered to the Russian Armed Forces in 2024

    First Deputy Chairman of the Board of the Military-Industrial Complex Andrey Yelchaninov stressed that in the near future, the ability to control several drones from the Su-57 cockpit will be implemented.

    MOSCOW, April 13. /TASS/. Deliveries to the troops of the Okhotnik heavy unmanned strike system are scheduled to begin in 2024. This was announced by the first deputy chairman of the Board of the Military-Industrial Commission (MIC) Andrey Yelchaninov.

    "It is planned to start delivering Okhotnik to the troops as early as 2024," Yelchaninov said in an interview."Rossiyskaya Gazeta".

    He recalled that the drones are capable of operating under the control of a pilot piloting the Su-57 aviation complex. "These planes and drones can interact not only with each other, but also in different types of battle formations," Yelchaninov said.

    He stressed that "in the near future, it will be possible to control several Okhotnik drones from the Su-57 cockpit. "The function of target distribution between these aircraft is being worked out. The group use of guided aircraft and unmanned aerial systems is just around the corner. And the first flights confirm this, " explained the first deputy chairman of the Board of the Military-Industrial Complex.

    "In the future, it is planned that when used together, the Okhotnik UAV under the control of the leading manned vehicle will solve any tasks for air and ground targets. In this connection, we see great prospects for building up the combat potential of the Russian Aerospace Forces, " he concluded.

    https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/11138619

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    Post  PapaDragon Wed Apr 14, 2021 12:31 am


    They keep talking about being controlled from Su-57 but the main thing is that this is still excellent platform in it's own right that will be just as useful when controlled from the ground the usual way

    S-70 and Su-57 are two programmes that can be introduced separately no problem

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    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Wed Apr 14, 2021 11:51 am

    It has interesting potential, and when used with upgraded Su-30s which would essentially be two seat Su-35s, and of course MiG-35s in the two seat layout, perhaps they could operate more than one or two.
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    Post  LMFS Wed Apr 14, 2021 4:06 pm

    GarryB wrote:It has interesting potential, and when used with upgraded Su-30s which would essentially be two seat Su-35s, and of course MiG-35s in the two seat layout, perhaps they could operate more than one or two.

    The Su-57 is going to control several of them with one pilot. The system is highly automatic and the work of the pilot is not more than the way they chose a weapon and a target today, instead of programming the flight and every tactical details of the missile that are calculated automatically.
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    Post  GarryB Thu Apr 15, 2021 5:39 am

    I understand that, but I think an aircraft with two crew could manage more drones and use them in groupings and make them more useful than one or two drones that a pilot uses while flying his aircraft.

    Not like they haven't done it before... the Ka-52 can launch and control UAVs to scout ahead with suicide drones.

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    Post  LMFS Thu Apr 15, 2021 11:45 am

    GarryB wrote:I understand that, but I think an aircraft with two crew could manage more drones and use them in groupings and make them more useful than one or two drones that a pilot uses while flying his aircraft.

    Not like they haven't done it before... the Ka-52 can launch and control UAVs to scout ahead with suicide drones.

    Yet no known 5G plane is slated for having a crew of more than one. The development path is more AI, not bigger crews. The pilot is not even required to do the "piloting" anymore, they could spend the whole mission with their hands off the stick and throttle. They become managers of the platform for a given mission, and that is only for the time being, because the militaries do not want to lose the human factor that soon, but they are increasingly only approving tactical approaches calculated by the mission systems instead of thinking the mission on their own. It seems people still do not understand that human thinking is not intrinsically superior, only it has been trained and developed for far longer. Once the systems have been properly trained we will see the AI progressing from the simpler tasks where they are already ahead of us to other, more complex ones.

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