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    MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

    Isos
    Isos

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    MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir - Page 7 Empty Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

    Post  Isos Tue Jul 07, 2020 6:51 pm

    Any helicopter is vulnerable to manpads. Mi-8 a d 24 would bring special forces with mortar/atgm teams on the hills nearby.

    Both airforces would be busy fighting enemy airforce. CAS would be impossible. And at this altidudes they would be in range of manpads. Add to that, mountainous terrain is very difficult for CAS.


    They don't need tanks there but atgm teams. Even 30mm canon can deal with light chinese tanks and engagement ranges are less than 2km. Sending tanks is suicide. Mini suicide drones would also perfectly work.
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Wed Jul 08, 2020 6:07 am

    Most of the time light tanks are intended for soft ground... swamp or mud or snow or just very wet areas when full sized tanks and armour would sink and be useless.

    Mountain warfare is something else though, with narrow foot tracks tanks would be at serious risk of rolling over, though I would say their optics and even just heaters would make them a much more comfortable option for most troops their lack of mobility and risk of driving into areas where there is no way out because of the steepness of the terrain would make operational use difficult.

    In the case of the upgraded Sprut its long range optics and powerful gun would make it very capable, but even then there would be issues with gun elevation limits... you couldn't just aim at any target you liked...

    In terms of helicopter support I would say their new Ka-226T would be their best choice, though improvements in its self defence suite would be required to operate near enemy forces.

    One of the most potent weapons the Soviets had in Afghanistan was the 160mm mortar which is big and heavy but also very powerful...

    Shoulder launched rockets were also very effective not just at hitting positions, but also for firing at snow drifts to cause avalanches onto enemy positions.

    Weapons like SPG-9M would be useful too because of their range... I would add 82mm Vasilek mortars to the mix too, being light and mobile with rather good fire power.

    Fighting in the mountains is hard, and very dangerous... I would think 100 years of talking is better than 1 year of fighting because after the fighting is over lots of people will be dead and even if it is very one sided in either direction it just means that in 10 years time the losing side will try to learn its lessons as to why it failed and fix them and then try again.... it is a recipe that has worked perfectly in Israel and will continue to do so... with no satisfactory end in sight.

    The US and UK will encourage both sides of course because it will weaken India and China immensely and the US and UK might be able to sell them some weapons... or at least take advantage of the anger and mistrust to get both india and china to do things they wouldn't normally do.
    Sujoy
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    Post  Sujoy Wed Jul 08, 2020 3:50 pm

    Mindstorm wrote:If a similar situation will arise, the bulk of the conflict (that will obviously be immensely more serious and extensive) will obviously shift to the exchanges between the respective Ground Forces component; the clashes in the air between the two Air Forces and the damages that those will be capable to inflict (if not paralized by the horrendous losses that them will suffer, in particular IAF, from the opposing air defenses) will appear like nothing more than background noise

    The situation we were analysisng is instead the much more probable minor clash on the border were, at a maximum, some squadrons of the IAF and PLAAF will be involved, here the side that will know the times and procedure for war-time operations of the enemy will gain a very distinctive advantage because will be capable to program its missions accordingly.
    That makes sense. IAF officers are somehow adamant that India enjoys aerial supremacy over China in that region. They put forward various reasons like high altitude in Tibet means PLAAF will have to operate with a reduced payload. The problem with this line of thinking is that PLAAF, PLA realises this as much. Consequently, they rely more on their massive IRBM, cruise missile regiments placed in Tibet.
    It would have been much more interesting to figure out how Russia approached this conflict. I suspect Russian heavy and light bombers armed with Kh-101/102 flying well inside Russian airspace could have very easily targeted PLA ground positions in the mountains.

    Perhaps Russia would have come up with some path breaking technology. For instance the border clash with China in 1969 encouraged the Soviet Union to design the Myasischev M-25 sonic boom generating aircraft designed to kill troops on the ground with overpressure.

    Bottomline is, Russians/Kremlin understands warfighting having fought wars for the last 2 centuries in Europe and in Asia. Indian leadership doesn’t have that kind of experience, nor do they have that kind of foresight. Indian soldiers fought wars on behalf of the British, Uzbeks, Afghans and Arabs. Ergo, India could only develop shock troops but never could develop a military leadership.
    GarryB wrote: In terms of helicopter support I would say their new Ka-226T would be their best choice, though improvements in its self defence suite would be required to operate near enemy forces.
    Self defence suits for the Ka-226T are probably available in Russia. Not sure if Indian Ka 226T will be devoid of any such suits.
    GarryB wrote:One of the most potent weapons the Soviets had in Afghanistan was the 160mm mortar which is big and heavy but also very powerful...
    India operated the 160mm mortar but I understand Indian Army no longer uses it. Being very heavy, it's difficult to carry it in the mountains.
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Thu Jul 09, 2020 9:10 am

    Self defence suits for the Ka-226T are probably available in Russia. Not sure if Indian Ka 226T will be devoid of any such suits.

    I am not sure what level of ESM equipment they carry, but for use in combat in mountains it would probably need to be rather good and comprehensive.

    India operated the 160mm mortar but I understand Indian Army no longer uses it. Being very heavy, it's difficult to carry it in the mountains.

    The 160mm mortar is not a light weapon, but is much lighter than the equivalent 152mm gun with a similar 40kg bomb payload.

    If there are roads then I would say something like a 120mm mortar on a BTR chassis would be very useful... its steep trajectory being a huge bonus.

    Keeping the vehicles very light would be a bonus too so perhaps a 2S1 vehicle with a 122mm gun would be more useful than a 2S3 with a 152mm gun for example.

    The thinner air might make RPGs more effective and longer ranged, but ATGMs might not be as effective because of the altitude... it would be a serious test of equipment...
    Sujoy
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    Post  Sujoy Thu Jul 09, 2020 10:48 am

    GarryB wrote:The thinner air might make RPGs more effective and longer ranged, but ATGMs might not be as effective because of the altitude...  it would be a serious test of equipment...
    Yes, we are talking about altitudes of 15K feet and above so the air is thin and RPGs will be effective. But accuracy of RPGs will be an issue.

    ATGMs (Kornets, Spike etc) are essentially RPGs. Why will their performance be affected at high altitudes?
    Sujoy
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    Post  Sujoy Sat Feb 27, 2021 4:29 pm

    Exactly two years ago, Pakistan Air Force launched Operation Swift Retort to target Indian military installation. A former Indian Air Force pilots shares his thought about how the Indian Air Force reacted.

    He suggests two Su-30 MKIs held off a much larger formation of Vipers.

    https://twitter.com/joe_sameer/status/1365541344991617025?s=20
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    Post  GarryB Sun Feb 28, 2021 6:11 am

    ATGMs (Kornets, Spike etc) are essentially RPGs. Why will their performance be affected at high altitudes?

    An RPG-7 rocket is like a bullet... it is blown out of the tube by a propellent charge and then after travelling a short distance a sustainer rocket motor lights up and accelerates the rocket, but it is essentially an artillery shell with rocket assistance... if you look at the aiming reticle of the weapon near the top is a small + sign that is boresight. Quite a bit below that is a grid showing aim points at different distances and also lead lines in each direction left and right for moving targets and crosswinds....

    As the distance to the target increases the aim point gets lower and lower because it has a purely ballistic trajectory and no wings to keep it in level flight.

    A missile like Kornet also has a rocket sustainer motor, but it also has control surfaces and a gyro that keeps its nose up to allow it to maintain horizontal flight.

    It does not have any wings either but the control surfaces and rocket motor allow it to maintain a nose up attitude which results in a fairly level flight path to the target.

    As the air gets thinner and colder the nose up angle to maintain flight increases and as altitude increases the missiles ability to maintain altitude is effected too.


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