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    MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

    magnumcromagnon
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    Post  magnumcromagnon Wed Apr 17, 2019 3:05 pm

    GarryB wrote:Personally I think if the Indians had the coordinates of the target area they should have bought Tochka-U or Iskander missiles and attacked the place without needing all these aircraft...

    Even a Smerch battery should have flattened the area in question for rather less than these Israeli weapons probably cost them... and with no risk to aircraft.

    Their (Indian MOD) corrupt practices keeps them from spending smart.
    jhelb
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    Post  jhelb Wed Apr 17, 2019 4:13 pm

    GarryB wrote:Personally I think if the Indians had the coordinates of the target area they should have bought Tochka-U or Iskander missiles and attacked the place without needing all these aircraft...

    They already have their version of Iskander called Prithvi which is a tactical surface-to-surface short-range ballistic missile. They could have also used Brahmos cruise missile.

    But my basic point is, this is just a fake news that the Indian government decided to spread. They went inside Pakistani airspace but did NOT target anything.

    They next day (27thFeb) Indian Government said Pakistani Air Force send in F-16, JF-17 and Mirage 3 that targeted Indian military installation inside Indian territory. Where are the pieces of those munitions that were dropped by F-16, JF-17 ? If India can show pieces of AMRAAM then surely they should have pieces of munition dropped by Pakistani jets.


    medo
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    Post  medo Wed Apr 17, 2019 6:05 pm

    This Indian attack was not on a sudden target, which pop up on the hill. It was well planed in advance and is targeting static well known school object, which is not that small. Spice-2000 in automatic CCD/IIR guidance compare the picture of object in camera with the picture of object saved in memory and works together with GPS guidance, the same as with cruise missiles. WSO in the plane could still monitor bomb fly path through data link and could see if a cross of the bomb is not on the target but above it and could correct the cross back to target and hit it. Attack was planed in advance on well known object, so they study well the object itself and the area around it and on flypath and it was for sure done by computers and digital maps. I don't think Indians write coordinates in bombs by watching on paper map and reading isohipses. Target objects were alone on the top of the hill and around is forest. Most probably IAF made a mistake in altitude of target and bomb fly over it and fall in next hill instead in object and they most probably didn't use IIR camera to correct the mistake. How this could happen, when they use computers and digital maps is another story, but mistakes happened. If Indians are smart, they will take some lessons from this and this will not repeat again. Every mistake is good, if you see it and correct it, problem is, if you deny it and don't correct it.

    Personally I think if the Indians had the coordinates of the target area they should have bought Tochka-U or Iskander missiles and attacked the place without needing all these aircraft...

    Even a Smerch battery should have flattened the area in question for rather less than these Israeli weapons probably cost them... and with no risk to aircraft.

    India is obsesed with Israeli tech and they place Israeli equipment everywhere possible. They want to show superiority of Israeli weapons against "old Russian junk", so no way to use Russian Tochky-U missile or Kh-59M from Su-30MKI. They could use Brahmos as well. Russia hit the target in Syria with Onyx missile. But India decided to use Mirage-2000 with Spice-2000 bombs. This is politics of Modi in front of elections.
    medo
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    Post  medo Wed Apr 17, 2019 6:13 pm

    jhelb wrote:
    GarryB wrote:Personally I think if the Indians had the coordinates of the target area they should have bought Tochka-U or Iskander missiles and attacked the place without needing all these aircraft...

    They already have their version of Iskander called Prithvi which is a tactical surface-to-surface short-range ballistic missile. They could have also used Brahmos cruise missile.

    But my basic point is, this is just a fake news that the Indian government decided to spread. They went inside Pakistani airspace but did NOT target anything.

    They next day (27thFeb) Indian Government said Pakistani Air Force send in F-16, JF-17 and Mirage 3 that targeted Indian military installation inside Indian territory. Where are the pieces of those munitions that were dropped by F-16, JF-17 ?  If India can show pieces of AMRAAM then surely they should have pieces of munition dropped by Pakistani jets.



    Pakistan show pieces of bombs and craters they made in the forest. If India didn't target it, than they could simply say, this was a warning strike near target and everything would be OK.
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    Post  jhelb Wed Apr 17, 2019 6:46 pm

    medo wrote:Pakistan show pieces of bombs and craters they made in the forest. If India didn't target it, than they could simply say, this was a warning strike near target and everything would be OK.

    Pakistan showed a few drop tanks. No evidence of Spice 2000.

    That area is a known training ground for jihadis. Craters could well have been formed by some IED explosions that jihadis carried out during training.

    And if indeed 12 Indian Mirage-2000 entered Pakistani airspace & they couldn't shoot down even one, it shows Pakistani Air Force, Army in very poor light.

    Pakistanis are bigger liars than Indians. One of their F-16 pilot is dead, apparently lynched by Pakistani villagers, but what about the second F-16 pilot who had also ejected? Why doesn't Pakistan show him to the international media. It has been more than 45 days now.

    Even now the Pakistani airspace is almost entirely closed.


    Last edited by jhelb on Wed Apr 17, 2019 8:04 pm; edited 1 time in total
    miketheterrible
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    Post  miketheterrible Wed Apr 17, 2019 7:23 pm

    Both sides are major liars.

    India screwed up and did a shit job in their strike. Those Israeli bombs suck and all those Israeli gadgets are garbage.

    Pakistan did lose an F-16 or a jet of some sort. One of their men are dead and they are covering it up.
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Thu Apr 18, 2019 5:48 am

    The fog of war...
    magnumcromagnon
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    Post  magnumcromagnon Thu Apr 18, 2019 5:59 am

    miketheterrible wrote:Both sides are major liars.

    India screwed up and did a shit job in their strike.  Those Israeli bombs suck and all those Israeli gadgets are garbage.

    Pakistan did lose an F-16 or a jet of some sort.  One of their men are dead and they are covering it up.

    The more you think about it, the more you realize that the idea of integrating Israeli tech on Indian vehicles have been out right abysmal failures time and time again! Remember the Arjun MBT? Yeah literal vaporware, and has heavy integration of Israeli tech. Also the LAHAT GLATGM is nothing short of fecal mixed crud. Compare Refleks, which is a laser beam-riding missile that's nearly impossible to beat with PPS/DIRCM's and was the base design for the most capable man portable ATGM in the world (Kornet), while Lahat has a front facing seeker than can be easily defeated/dazzled with Passive Counter Measures....but most of all doesn't work as advertised:

    India drops Israeli missile for Arjun Tank
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    Post  jhelb Fri Apr 19, 2019 9:21 am

    Austin, not to score any brownie points, but it seems the naysayers were correct all along.

    No Pakistani was killed during the IAF strike. Clarified by India's External Affairs Minister

    https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/defence/no-pakistani-soldier-or-citizen-died-in-balakot-air-strike-sushma-swaraj/articleshow/68941123.cms

    Eventually, you guys will finally see the light - no airstrike took place
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    Post  GarryB Sat Apr 20, 2019 3:38 am

    Compare Refleks, which is a laser beam-riding missile that's nearly impossible to beat with PPS/DIRCM's and was the base design for the most capable man portable ATGM in the world (Kornet), while Lahat has a front facing seeker than can be easily defeated/dazzled with Passive Counter Measures....but most of all doesn't work as advertised:

    What an odd article that was.... it mentioned a fault of the missile was not being able to hit targets within 1.2km... but it is a tank round... surely within 1.2km you should be able to obliterate the target with an APFSDS round or a HEAT round at a vastly cheaper price.

    Semi Active Laser Homing is not bad per say, it does have some advantages, like not needing a clear line of sight between the target and the operator... you can bang them off and mark the target with another smaller lighter platform... like a small UAV operating over enemy forces at heights where they are tough to see.

    There are not many opponents who could actually do much about that sort of method of attack... of course smoke around the target means the missile might be targeting the top of a smoke cloud instead of the target so might fly right past the target because it wont notice hitting the smoke and wont see the tank underneath...

    Still I would think if they have gun launched missiles in their T-72s and T-90s it makes sense to just use one type of missile for the job... perhaps a joint venture to expand its performance to their specialist needs.... perhaps 10km range in open country or mountains where targets can be seen at much greater distances... the Kornet seems to work to 10km in the HE Frag armed model, so a 125mm gun accelerated model should be at least able to manage to equal that...

    Of course experience in Syria seems to have shown them that 152mm laser homing rounds can be very very effective with the right drone support too... including against moving targets...

    You would think with less than 40% of the new Arjun being Indian they would just do what the Russians did and just buy the engine and gun and armour technology from Russia and work on developing their own armour industry... considering their size and the large number of potential opponents they see in their path (ie china) then having a lot of tanks would be valuable for them.

    What they are doing now is having their high tech tank being supposed to be indigenous (Arjun) and their mass numbers tank imported (T-72/90)... except their new imports of the T-90MS seems to be superior in many ways to their supposed high tech tank.

    I would have thought logically that it would make rather more sense for them to unify the cheap and the expensive model... buy the T-90MS design completely and fully licence produce it in numbers as their Domestic high quality tank and upgrade the T-72s with features and equipment from the T-90 and use that as the numbers tank and just drop the Arjun.

    In terms of aircraft, I think they need to have a sit down and good hard think about what they are doing... I think the Tegas has enormous potential as a cheap simple light fighter, but they seem to be screwing that up... it looks from the outside like they are expecting too much from it... it does not and should not have enormous range or an enormous payload... it needs to be reasonably manoeuvrable with a good payload and medium range and cheaper to buy and operate and easy to fly and reliable and safe.

    Trying to make it a super weapon will ruin it... the MiG-21 is a good example... small but fast and cheap to run... not a lot of range and not a lot of payload, and no super dogfighter... but cheap and simple and most of the time effective enough... with R-73s and R-77s it is a serious threat to even modern enemy aircraft.
    Gomig-21
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    Post  Gomig-21 Fri Jul 03, 2020 3:59 pm

    Isos wrote:I think the newly build M are not the same as the first M version from the 90s.

    It shares a lot of new stuff from the KR and 35 versions which is not the same as the very first K version from the 80s.

    Radar is not the only critical thing in an aircraft. A very good RWR is more important.

    Egypt also ordered kh31 and kh38 for its mig-29. They also have ordered targeting pods so they will get some guided bombs too.

    And I think it has great defensive systems between the RWR and MAWS and flares etc.  There's even rumors that they bought the MSP-418K Electroic Warfare Pod which would be quite something if it works as advertised.


    The Electronic Warfare Pod MSP-418K is of the latest jamming and countermeasures systems
    MSP-418K is a Russian lightweight, high performance jammer for the MiG-29/35. It uses DRFM (Digital RF Memory) technology and covers the G-J-band range (4-18 GHz). The pod's weight is 150kg, dimensions are 230 x 225 x 3,800mm. It has 120° azimuth, 60° elevation coverage.

    MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir - Page 5 Upload_2017-7-15_4-26-11-jpeg

    Quadratic paralysis of missiles and radars
    It wages an electronic war on air defense systems and radar guided missiles
    It uses DRFM technology and is the first Russian Pod to use this technique
    The technology allows the Pod to transmit misleading information about the aircraft's location, speed and altitude.. It creates imaginary targets to mislead enemy radars and missiles
    MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir - Page 5 Upload_2017-7-15_4-38-29-jpeg

    It protects fighters from surface-to-air and air-to-air missiles
    MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir - Page 5 Upload_2017-7-15_4-39-49-jpeg


    Broadband G-J bands are used to detect and disturb/jam radar signals
    Coverage: 120 degrees horizontally, 60 degrees vertically
    MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir - Page 5 Upload_2017-7-15_4-43-13-jpeg

    Light weight (150 kg), easy draw and mount
    MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir - Page 5 Upload_2017-7-15_4-44-58-jpeg

    My real question is how effective really is the R-77 that the EAF bought (which was why I was asking which model do we know that they actually did buy) I know it must be one of the export models but there's so many and a bit confusing.

    There is also the issue with what happened with the Indian/Pakistani tussle on Feb-27th that resulted in a PAF F-16 shooting down an Indian MiG-21 Bison with an AIM-120C and the Indian Su-30KI which were at roughly the same distance couldn't lock onto the Pakistani F-16 because their radar signals kept telling them the range was beyond that of the R-77 they were carrying. If there is any truth to that, that is quite worrisome since we're led to believe that the R-77 has better range than the AIM-120C. I wonder why that happened to the Indians and their R-77 because that kinda worries me a little bit with the ones the EAF have if they're not as capable in range as the AIM-120C? Anyone care to indulge in this topic?

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    miketheterrible
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    Post  miketheterrible Fri Jul 03, 2020 4:11 pm

    R-77 has range of max 80km while Pakistan uses Aim-120C-5 which is 105km.

    R-77-1 at about 110km. This is used by Russia but India never purchased it. Instead they use R-27 extended variants which have pretty good range

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    Post  Gomig-21 Fri Jul 03, 2020 4:45 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:R-77 has range of max 80km while Pakistan uses Aim-120C-5 which is 105km.

    R-77-1 at about 110km.  This is used by Russia but India never purchased it.  Instead they use R-27 extended variants which have pretty good range

    That explains it for the IAF.  I know they bought the R-27 to make up for it, but I don't think the EAF bought the R-27 and they need something in line with the AIM-120C, for sure.  I'm guessing the R-77 the EAF bought is the same as the Indian one with the 80km range which is really not enough.  They should've bought the R-27 if the R-77-1 is not available for export.

    This also begs the question, what will they get with the Su-35. They need much more range in their A2A missiles with that beast of an aircraft.
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    Post  Gomig-21 Fri Jul 03, 2020 5:23 pm

    GarryB wrote:Not sure, but would say I agree with you about the MiG-35... the MiG-29M2 and MiG-35 share the same airframe but little else as most systems and parts are improved on the 35. If it doesn't have the final AESA radar yet it is still a 35 and not a 29M2.

    The PESA radar on the MiG-29M2 is a good radar... there is no point rushing an AESA that is not ready yet in to service because it will be rather expensive and a mature PESA is better than an immature AESA and much much cheaper.

    When the AESAs are ready it would not take long to swap them over.

    Yeah I'm not too worried about the AESA TBH, Gary.  Even though you get more range and it's supposed to be much harder to jam since it basically works by chirping, changing frequency every time it sends out a signal which is practically impossible to jam, as of now anyway!  

    Between its range and ability against jamming, those certainly aren't minor or negligible upgrades and make a huge difference, but there are other techniques to work around that provided the weapons in the missiles have compatible ranges to the enemy's.  

    The MiG-35 also has an advantage in that it has a IRST even though range for that is limited to 30 km at the most, it still allows the MiG to shut down its radar and use its IRST which hampers the enemy's ability to detect it.  

    It's at the longer ranges of 85km and over that concern me and where the Zhuk-AE comes in handy over the Zhuk-ME.

    The other item I see lacking in the EAF MiG-35 -- besides the ones you and I have mentioned so far -- is the OLS-K.  The OLS-K seems to be missing from the bottom of the aircraft as I don't see any glass bubble on the protrusion that belongs to that item.  

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    If the R-37M is capable of being fired from a MiG-35 using the Zhuk-ME, then the range is sufficient for that radar to use longer range missiles than the 80km R-77.
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    Post  Isos Fri Jul 03, 2020 5:57 pm

    There is no external difference between r-77 and r-77-1. We don't really know what they ordered. RVV-SD which is the export version of r-77-1 is proposed for quite long time and Egyptian air force commanders are not amateurs, they know the limits of the r-77.

    Their mig-29M is way newer than indian Su-30MKI which is limited by its softwares to not being able to use RVV-SD. Not the case of the mig.


    the Indian Su-30KI which were at roughly the same distance couldn't lock onto the Pakistani F-16 because their radar signals kept telling them the range was beyond that of the R-77 they were carrying.

    Generally a radar can lock on at 80% of max range and the missile range isn't taken into account for the lock.

    The pilot has only a signal "launch authorized" when the computer calculated that the missile has enough range to hit the target. But that doesn't block the lock.

    Tactically you can lock on a fighter making him think you have launched a missile and let him do evasive manoeuvres (lose speed and altitude) and take the advantage or make him stop his bombing mission or realease external ordonance (fuel tanks and bombs) because he would be heavy for an air to air combat ...

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    Post  GarryB Sat Jul 04, 2020 5:40 am


    My real question is how effective really is the R-77 that the EAF bought (which was why I was asking which model do we know that they actually did buy) I know it must be one of the export models but there's so many and a bit confusing.

    First of all the Su-30MKI wasn't compatible with the newer R-77-1 or its export name RVV-SD. They had to buy the RVV-AE instead which is a much older inferior missile in most respects.

    The MiG-35s Egypt has... with or without AESA radar is fully compatible with all the newer Russian missiles so I don't see any reason why they wouldn't buy them.

    But second the longest range missile does not automatically win... air to air missiles fired at their maximum range are very low energy when they arrive and are at their easiest to avoid... if you can help it you really want to climb and accelerate before launching your missile to give it the most energy for the attack... and even then those ranges given for all missiles are ideal circumstances where the target is heading towards you at normal flight speed... ie 600-800km/h so an 80km launch of an R-77 might reach the target at perhaps 65km range...

    [qutoe]There is also the issue with what happened with the Indian/Pakistani tussle on Feb-27th that resulted in a PAF F-16 shooting down an Indian MiG-21 Bison with an AIM-120C and the Indian Su-30KI which were at roughly the same distance couldn't lock onto the Pakistani F-16 because their radar signals kept telling them the range was beyond that of the R-77 they were carrying.[/quote]

    The Su-30 is a much faster aircraft with a lot more onboard fuel if they knew what was happening around them they could easily have turned and accelerated to mach 1.5 and climbed to 12-14km altitude and by the time they got to that altitude and speed the target would have been within range and they could have launched their missile and then turned off the ABs and turned 90 degrees and flown for a bit then turn back and had a look to see if they needed to fire another missile or not.

    It rather sounds like on the Indian side every fighter type is essentially on their own with regard to information and data sharing which is a much more important problem to fix than how far their missiles will travel to hit targets.

    The fact that the Egyptians are buying jammers tells me they have a better understanding of what a force multiplier is and why they are useful... even if they are not cheap.

    I'm guessing the R-77 the EAF bought is the same as the Indian one with the 80km range which is really not enough. They should've bought the R-27 if the R-77-1 is not available for export.

    The fact that they are buying MiG-35s rather than cheaper MiG-29M2s, and they are buying jammer pods suggests to me they want tools of war that work rather than paying lip service and buying flashy shiny stuff that looks good on parades.

    Yeah I'm not too worried about the AESA TBH, Gary. Even though you get more range and it's supposed to be much harder to jam since it basically works by chirping, changing frequency every time it sends out a signal which is practically impossible to jam, as of now anyway!

    Electronic scanning is useful... it is why most Russian radars are PESA... jamming is one thing and deception and decoys is another... there is no perfect radar that sees everything all the time without being detectable.

    Not saying it is not good or worth the effort of developing, but to start with it is very expensive because essentially it is an array of thousands of radar transmit and receive radar modules... a PESA only has one. Once they have gotten the technology working and mature at that scale they will develop it further and get new capabilities not possible with PESA that will make the extra cost worth it and they will likely start introducing test models.

    They are also working on photonic radar that might render it completely obsolete...

    Between its range and ability against jamming, those certainly aren't minor or negligible upgrades and make a huge difference, but there are other techniques to work around that provided the weapons in the missiles have compatible ranges to the enemy's.

    There is also tactics to consider... if you have an AWACS platform nearby most of the time fighters operate radar silent anyway so spending 10 million dollars per fighter to fit it with a brand new long range radar you keep turned off or just listening like any other radar could do is not an ideal way to run a business.

    The cost of AESA elements often means the radar antenna itself is reduced width so the full nose space of the aircraft is not filled which reduces the effective antenna which actually reduces range.

    The MiG-35 also has an advantage in that it has a IRST even though range for that is limited to 30 km at the most, it still allows the MiG to shut down its radar and use its IRST which hampers the enemy's ability to detect it.

    More like 90km... 30km is the range of the laser rangefinder. In fact in the 1990s the Americans were worried that the IRST of the MiG-29 could detect an F-16 in a dogfight at distances greater than the F-16 could detect the MiG with its radar... an F-16 has a large powerful engine that puts out a lot of heat in full AB...

    The other item I see lacking in the EAF MiG-35 -- besides the ones you and I have mentioned so far -- is the OLS-K. The OLS-K seems to be missing from the bottom of the aircraft as I don't see any glass bubble on the protrusion that belongs to that item.

    It hasn't got its AESA yet, so it clearly isn't a complete 35... perhaps there are other components they are getting customised or the export model is being produced... remember the MiG-35 was originally offered to India and was a different aircraft. This current model was a model developed after the Indians rejected it and the Russian Air Force mentioned interest in the aircraft. Personally I think if India had bought a mixed batch of say 50 MiG-35s and perhaps 150 MiG-29M2s it probably would have been in the 10-12 billion dollar ball park... if 126 35s was going to be 10 billion then only 50 would be less than 5 billion and you could probably get three times more MiG-29M2s for the same price or thereabouts.

    Anyway... if India had bought MiGs then the Russian AF might have ordered 48 and that would have been that... MiG would be fine until the Su-57 was in serial production and the new light 5th gen stealth fighter was needed... so MiG would be at the leading edge and the new light stealth fighter would be good.

    With India buying some Rafales the Russians clearly realised they still needed about 50 lighter fighters for around the place so they made all sorts of demands and ordered essentially brand new MiG-35s which is what they have now, but everything pretty much had to be better and some of it is not actually ready yet.

    Not the end of the world. The Typhoon couldn't hit ground targets till about the third tranch, and we don't need to mention the F-35.

    Tactics generally make up for any shortcomings of a platform...

    If the R-37M is capable of being fired from a MiG-35 using the Zhuk-ME, then the range is sufficient for that radar to use longer range missiles than the 80km R-77.

    The most valuable part of being able to fire the R-37M is to be able to accelerate and climb and launch to max range a missile that should be able to take down most AWACS platforms with relative ease... and taking those types of aircraft down would seriously reduce the performance of any capable opponent... AWACS platforms are expensive but also worth it...

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    Post  Mindstorm Sat Jul 04, 2020 1:10 pm

    Gomig-21 wrote:There is also the issue with what happened with the Indian/Pakistani tussle on Feb-27th that resulted in a PAF F-16 shooting down an Indian MiG-21 Bison with an AIM-120C and the Indian Su-30KI which were at roughly the same distance couldn't lock onto the Pakistani F-16 because their radar signals kept telling them the range was beyond that of the R-77 they were carrying. If there is any truth to that, that is quite worrisome since we're led to believe that the R-77 has better range than the AIM-120C. I wonder why that happened to the Indians and their R-77 because that kinda worries me a little bit with the ones the EAF have if they're not as capable in range as the AIM-120C? Anyone care to indulge in this topic?



    There is a lot of false data circulating on air to air missile range -head-on at high altitude with incoming target - caused mostly by old low level articles that has been reported over and over in the years and in this way became even reference sources for false data.

    Modern medium range air to air missiles ,taking into account the same engagement condictions of delivery, reach in the most advanced mass produced specimens available worldwide not more than 100-110 km. -Meteor,  РВВ-СД, AIM-120D-

    I remember that someone some years ago was very surprised by the declarations of Борис Обносов, general director of ТРВ,  that talking of the new ,at the time, export available РВВ-СД said that its range was approximately 10% higher than the best foreign counterpart, the reason is that in professional environment anyone know that range of AIM-120D and Meteor, in the conditions previously described, is around 100 km.

    http://www.strategycenter.net/research/pubID.181/pub_detail.asp

    The widely available AIM-120C-5 is around 50 km, in facts it is taken as the reference point for Meteor's makers to declare a range of engagement of around two times greater than the most widespread AA missile available to western airforces.

    https://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/meteor-missile-will-make-changes-to-accommodate-f35-0599/

    At the times of its introduction the export RVV-AE outranged the western counterparts of its times (for not other reason that it has a bigger volume)  and also today it outrange majority of AIM-120 models ,except the D.

    In the brief air to air clash between IAF and PAF we must take into account that ,in that particular peace-time posture instance (IAF had not uttered any war time order for its Air Force also to deny important informations on its deployment times and protocols to Pakistan military analists),  locally the numerical concentration of PAF fighters was significantly higher than IAF fighters scrambled in the area.

    In particular two IAF SU-30MKI find themseves in the same air sectors of around 10-12 PAF fighters aircraft, in those instances of overwhelming numerical superiority, you cannot capitalise the range of your air to air missiles because the enemy aircraft can spread freely theirs formation attempting to engage you from outside the field of view of your radar and anytime one of them is stably acquired by your radar, allowing an RVV-AE to be released, those particular aircraft simply turn away from you, (an AA missile against a receding target has less than 1/3 of the range previously named).

    Those two Su-30MKIs and theris pilots actually in that instance managed to do a very good and proficient action, luring those PAF fighters in wasting several AIM-120 missiles that them twarted and outmanoeuvered in the wasteful attempt to bring them down preventing them to complete theirs OCA mission; the performance was actually impressive for professionality and cold-blood.

    Moreover all the ridiculous stories on IAF supposedly disatisfied with the "range" of RVV-AE are literally the invention of technically illiterate journalists, often with foreign-controled vested interests, that directly collide with the reality where India MoD ordered mew batch of R-73E and R-VV-AE


    https://theprint.in/defence/wiser-after-balakot-india-orders-missiles-worth-700-million-from-russia/249553/

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    Post  Big_Gazza Sat Jul 04, 2020 1:38 pm

    Mindstorm wrote:Those two Su-30MKIs and theris pilots actually in that instance managed to do a very good and proficient action, luring those PAF fighters in wasting several AIM-120 missiles that them twarted and outmanoeuvered in the wasteful attempt to bring them down preventing them to complete theirs OCA mission; the performance was actually impressive for professionality and cold-blood.

    Bingo.  

    Most Western "experts" failed to see the obvious. The PAF tried to execute the Pentagrams fantasy of BVR and knocking Russian-made fighters out of the air at long range with "superior American" AAMs, but the grossly out-numbered IAF Sukhois defeated the incoming Murican wunderwaffe and the PAF legged it rather than stick around.  Laughing

    Russian miltech > American hubris
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    Post  RTN Sat Jul 04, 2020 2:00 pm

    Mindstorm wrote:Those two Su-30MKIs and theris pilots actually in that instance managed to do a very good and proficient action, luring those PAF fighters in wasting several AIM-120 missiles that them twarted and outmanoeuvered in the wasteful attempt to bring them down preventing them to complete theirs OCA mission; the performance was actually impressive for professionality and cold-blood.
    The word that you are looking for is INCOMPETENT. Those Indian Air Force pilots were incompetent. They were flying Su-30MKI, Mig-21BIS, Mirage-2000 well within their own air space and yet none of those pilots could fire a single missile towards the incoming Pakistani F-16s and JF-17s.

    In all likelihood IAF pilots could not even establish a missile lock even from 50Kms away. And even if they did PAF pilots were able to break their missile lock through a combination of hard maneuvring, electronic warfare and the use of live countermeasures.
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    Post  Isos Sat Jul 04, 2020 2:17 pm

    Modern medium range air to air missiles ,taking into account the same engagement condictions of delivery, reach in the most advanced mass produced specimens available worldwide not more than 100-110 km. -Meteor, РВВ-СД, AIM-120D-

    I remember that someone some years ago was very surprised by the declarations of Борис Обносов, general director of ТРВ, that talking of the new ,at the time, export available РВВ-СД said that its range was approximately 10% higher than the best foreign counterpart, the reason is that in professional environment anyone know that range of AIM-120D and Meteor, in the conditions previously described, is around 100 km.

    That's true but if AIM-120D has 140km max range and r-77 only 80km it means that the "war time" firig range will be bigger for the AIM120. That means the US jet will fire first even if it's not at max theorical range.

    Max range is not significant against other jets but it is against bombers like b-52 or ELINT/AWACS/MPA aicraft as they have terrible manoeuvrability/speed. That allows your aircraft to defend better over longer distances and the enemy would have more difficukties to protect them. That's why mig-31 have r37 missiles with 400km range.

    Those two Su-30MKIs and theris pilots actually in that instance managed to do a very good and proficient action, luring those PAF fighters in wasting several AIM-120 missiles that them twarted and outmanoeuvered in the wasteful attempt to bring them down preventing them to complete theirs OCA mission; the performance was actually impressive for professionality and cold-blood.

    Not really. PAF fired first, indians went defensive. If the fight would have been continued, PAF fighter would launched more missiles keeping indians in defensive position (loosing speed and altitude by manoeuvring hard) leading the PAF fighters in better position to use IR missiles or use guns. That doesn't mean they would have won, it only means they oblige the indians to go in a bad position compare to them.

    Having more range than the opponent for your missiles is critical because it allow first shoot and go in the battle in a better position.

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    Post  medo Sat Jul 04, 2020 3:23 pm

    GarryB wrote:First of all the Su-30MKI wasn't compatible with the newer R-77-1 or its export name RVV-SD. They had to buy the RVV-AE instead which is a much older inferior missile in most respects.

    The MiG-35s Egypt has... with or without AESA radar is fully compatible with all the newer Russian missiles so I don't see any reason why they wouldn't buy them.

    Indian Su-30MKI have Indian made central computer, not Russian one, so it is not compatible with newer Russian missiles and this is why India integrate their own Astra AAM, which use the same ARH as old R-77, it only have longer range at 100 km. Egyptian MiG-29M are fully Russian made, so no problem to use newer RVV-SD missile.


    There is also the issue with what happened with the Indian/Pakistani tussle on Feb-27th that resulted in a PAF F-16 shooting down an Indian MiG-21 Bison with an AIM-120C and the Indian Su-30KI which were at roughly the same distance couldn't lock onto the Pakistani F-16 because their radar signals kept telling them the range was beyond that of the R-77 they were carrying.

    A little correction. It was PAF JF-17, which shot down IAF MiG-21 Bison with PL-12 AAM. It was first kill for JF-17. PAF F-16 launched few AIM-120C-5 AMRAAMs against Su-30MKI, which have to outmaneuver them. Problem was, that PAF F-16 launched missiles against Sukhois, which were flying toward PAF planes, while Su-30MKI have to lock on targets, which fly away of them. Even if missiles have the same range, it is a big difference, when computer alow you tio launch it. When target is flying closer to you, you could launch it outside of missile max range, as target Will be within missile range, when missile will reach the point of interception. When you launch missile against target, which fly away from you, than distance of launching must be far shorter than max missile range, that missile will be able to catch the target before it is out of missile range.


    It rather sounds like on the Indian side every fighter type is essentially on their own with regard to information and data sharing which is a much more important problem to fix than how far their missiles will travel to hit targets.

    Indian Su-30MKI and MiG-29 don't have IFDL, so they could not work in groups with networking. Theoreticaly IAF jets could work through ground based ultra modern network AFNET, which prove to be total disaster as Indians were not even aware, where their own Mirage-2000 fighters are and didn't vector them against PAF intruders, although they were closer to them than Su-30MKI, which patrol deeper inside India. PAF also successfully jam Indian made communications in MiG-21 Bison and Indian made RWR Tarang on MiG-21 Bison and Su-30MKI also didn't detect any treat, although in both cases they were atacked with ARH guided missiles PL-12 and AMRAAM.


    The fact that the Egyptians are buying jammers tells me they have a better understanding of what a force multiplier is and why they are useful... even if they are not cheap.

    Not correct. Indian Su-30MKI and MiG-21 Bison are equipped with Israeli Elta EL/L-8222 jamming pods. Indian MiG-29UPG are equipped with Italian made ELT-568 jamming suite.

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    In the brief air to air clash between IAF and PAF we must take into account that ,in that particular peace-time posture instance (IAF had not uttered any war time order for its Air Force also to deny important informations on its deployment times and protocols to Pakistan military analists), locally the numerical concentration of PAF fighters was significantly higher than IAF fighters scrambled in the area.

    In particular two IAF SU-30MKI find themseves in the same air sectors of around 10-12 PAF fighters aircraft, in those instances of overwhelming numerical superiority, you cannot capitalise the range of your air to air missiles because the enemy aircraft can spread freely theirs formation attempting to engage you from outside the field of view of your radar and anytime one of them is stably acquired by your radar, allowing an RVV-AE to be released, those particular aircraft simply turn away from you, (an AA missile against a receding target has less than 1/3 of the range previously named).

    Those two Su-30MKIs and theris pilots actually in that instance managed to do a very good and proficient action, luring those PAF fighters in wasting several AIM-120 missiles that them twarted and outmanoeuvered in the wasteful attempt to bring them down preventing them to complete theirs OCA mission; the performance was actually impressive for professionality and cold-blood.

    Not correct. There were around 10-12 PAF jets, majority of them were old Mirage 5 bomb trucks, which drop bombs near Indian positions, not fighters. IAF have at least 3 pairs of fighters. 1 pair of MiG-21 Bison, from which 1 was shot down, 1 pair of Mirage-2000 patroling near border area and 1 pair of Su-30MKI patroling inside India and vectored to the theatre. PAF didn't have more fighters than IAF in that area, only IAF didn't know where their Mirages were and didn't vector them against intruders (I wonder, why IAF Mirage-2000 pilots didn't engage them themselves). Su-30MKI simply come too late and could only avoid some AMRAAMs as PAF jets were already flying back home. Only thing, that IAF Su-30MKI pilots prove was a quality of Su-30MKI TVC complex.


    The word that you are looking for is INCOMPETENT. Those Indian Air Force pilots were incompetent. They were flying Su-30MKI, Mig-21BIS, Mirage-2000 well within their own air space and yet none of those pilots could fire a single missile towards the incoming Pakistani F-16s and JF-17s.

    In all likelihood IAF pilots could not even establish a missile lock even from 50Kms away. And even if they did PAF pilots were able to break their missile lock through a combination of hard maneuvring, electronic warfare and the use of live countermeasures.

    It was whole IAF which was incompetent, not just pilots. The only missile, which IAF manage to launch was Spyder missile, which shot down IAF Mi-17 helicopter. IAF ultra modern AFNET was a total disaster.

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    Post  Sujoy Sat Jul 04, 2020 3:41 pm

    Isos wrote:
    Not really. PAF fired first, indians went defensive. If the fight would have been continued, PAF fighter would launched more missiles keeping indians in defensive position (loosing speed and altitude by manoeuvring hard) leading the PAF fighters in better position to use IR missiles or use guns. That doesn't mean they would have won, it only means they oblige the indians to go in a bad position compare to them.
    Pakistan Air Force (PAF) entered Indian air space in order to fire those BVR air to air missiles. Once they realized they missed they chose not to engage any Indian fighter jet and instead retured back to Pakistan.

    Since the MiGs climbed in the shadow of the Pir Panjal range, Pakistan’s airborne early warning and control system (AWAC) failed to detect them. Consequently, Pakistani fighters were taken aback by the sudden appearance of these Mig 21s.

    The Indian Mig 21 was shot down by AIM-120 BVR missiles from within visual range (WVR). Similarly, Pakistani F-16 was also shot down by the Mig 21 from WVR.

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    Post  Mindstorm Sat Jul 04, 2020 4:48 pm

    Isos wrote:That's true but if AIM-120D has 140km max range and r-77 only 80km it means that the "war time" firig range will be bigger for the AIM120. That means the US jet will fire first even if it's not at max theorical range.


    IF....IF....... AIM-120D would have 140 km of range (at the same conditions i have described and representing those portrayed for similar medium range  AA missiles) , in reality it has around 100 km of range at those conditions.

    Isos wrote:
    Not really. PAF fired first, indians went defensive. If the fight would have been continued, PAF fighter would launched more missiles keeping indians in defensive position

    Returning to the clash between IAF's Su-30MKI and PAF's F-16s and JF-17 fighters the element that was really important , like in 90% of military engagements in the reality, was not the A-pole range of respective medium range AA missiles - RVV-AE in this parameter enjoyed even a slight advantage over PAF's counterparts - but force concentration of fighter aircraft in that sector.

    Those SU-30MKI was outnumbered by a ratio of about 1:6......and as explained in those condition the enemy ,unless terribly incopetent, will simply not allow you to attack, you can be armed with any missile the result will not change significantly.

    In substance the aircrafts of the enemy squadron immediately spread out , after this initial manouver 3 or 4 of them close at medium range from you working effectively as baits , if your radar manage to acquire a fire solution on them among theirs combined EW, those "baits" of the squadron simply U-turn preventing you from delivering the AA missile attack (because the missiles will never reach them in the pursuit) in the mean time all the other aicraft attempt to manouevre outside the field of view of your radar ,if someone of them manage to do that, accelerate and execute an attack from relatively close range in the most disadvantageous kinematical and geometrical condition for your aircraft (this is how in the reality low observable aircraft attack enemy without that them would know the initial direction of the attack).

    Those two SU-30-MKIs cooperatively managed to cover each other's radar blind spot while contemporaneously using EW and aniti-missiles manouvers to avoid several incoming AIM-120 C-7; if any those 4 IAF pilots have done a very excellent job in stalling enemy Air Force's intrusion in Indian airspace without incurring in any loss......that in spite of the crushing numerical disadvantage.

    The unique choice that can be called in question is that of the Indian Forces central Command ,that for this minor clash in order to not reveal to PAF ....and even more to PLAAF....critically important informations and data on war-time protocols for deployment and of Air Forces and theirs arrangement in the coverage of indian air space have literally applied peace time scrambling procedure and only minor force transference in the area.

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    Post  Isos Sat Jul 04, 2020 5:21 pm

    IF....IF....... AIM-120D would have 140 km of range (at the same conditions i have described and representing those portrayed for similar medium range AA missiles) , in reality it has around 100 km of range at those conditions.

    Yes max range in best condition 140km. Normal range in battle situation 100km.

    But that also apply for russian missiles. Indian r-77 have 80km range in best conditions and something like 50km in battle condition.

    The AMRAAM equiped fighter enjoys the first launch.


    Returning to the clash between IAF's Su-30MKI and PAF's F-16s and JF-17 fighters the element that was really important , like in 90% of military engagements in the reality, was not the A-pole range of respective medium range AA missiles - RVV-AE in this parameter enjoyed even a slight advantage over PAF's counterparts - but force concentration of fighter aircraft in that sector.

    What are smocking ? RVV AE range sucks compared to AMRAAM. Even the chinese missiles on the jf-17 are better.

    The MKI could do nothing. Totally outnumbered. They just looked from far away on radar what was going on and couldn't even launch a missile. There is no success in that. Pakistani air force acomplished its mission.

    If they had a ramjet 150km r-77 or the r-37 or meteor they would have been able to launch around 20 missiles at those pakistani jets from stand off positions and probably down some of them.

    They totally failed to intercept pakistani air force.

    First, their jets that were flying (2mki, 2 bisin and 2 mirage) were not connected. The mirage didn't even know pakistani were attacking.

    Second, they knew Pakistan will attack back and didn't even prepared a squadron of MKI to be airborn in 5 minutes near the border.

    Third, their early warning awarness sucks. If Pakistan decided to strike with fighter launched cruise missile they would have made 100% hits.
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    Post  medo Sat Jul 04, 2020 6:13 pm

    Sujoy wrote:Pakistan Air Force (PAF) entered Indian air space in order to fire those BVR air to air missiles. Once they realized they missed they chose not to engage any Indian fighter jet and instead retured back to Pakistan.

    Since the MiGs climbed in the shadow of the Pir Panjal range, Pakistan’s airborne early warning and control system (AWAC) failed to detect them. Consequently, Pakistani fighters were taken aback by the sudden appearance of these Mig 21s.

    The Indian Mig 21 was shot down by AIM-120 BVR missiles from within visual range (WVR). Similarly, Pakistani F-16 was also shot down by the Mig 21 from WVR.

    No, they didn't. PAF made succesfull warning strike with droping their guided bombs near Indian army positions. Majority of PAF jets in India were Mirage 5 bombers. F-16 and JF-17 in Pakistan were just protection. F-16 jets launch some AMRAAMs just to keep IAF Su-30MKI on safe distance, that Mirages could safely return home. They bring Mirages home safely and this was their mission, not to shot down.

    Indian MiG-21 Bison was shot down inside Pakistan by JF-17 with PL-12 missile and no F-16 was shot down. IAF shot down only Mi-17.


    Mindstorm wrote:Those SU-30MKI was outnumbered by a ratio of about 1:6......and as explained in those condition the enemy ,unless terribly incopetent, will simply not allow you to attack, you can be armed with any missile the result will not change significantly.

    No, they weren't. PAF Mirages only carry bombs, which they drop as planed and no AAMs. Those Su-30MKI were not outnumbered.


    Isos wrote:What are smocking ? RVV AE range sucks compared to AMRAAM. Even the chinese missiles on the jf-17 are better.

    The MKI could do nothing. Totally outnumbered. They just looked from far away on radar what was going on and couldn't even launch a missile. There is no success in that. Pakistani air force acomplished its mission.

    Su-30MKI is armed with R-27ER/ET missiles, which have longer range than AMRAAM or PL-12. They would be able to shot down some PAF Mirages. IAF have 6 fighter jets there armed with modern AAMs. More than enough to deal with strike group of old PAF Mirage 5 jets.

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