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    Russian Civil Aviation: News #3

    kvs
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    Post  kvs on Sun Oct 18, 2020 3:57 pm

    Maximmmm wrote:
    George1 wrote:The case of theft in the Ka-62 helicopter program

    Imho the reason this program is such a goddamn disaster is because nobody can say what it's for.

    The only reason this is an issue is because criminal prosecutions are being carried out. When the Pentagram "loses"
    several trillion US dollars that's just an accounting problem. American and NATzO propaganda suppresses
    the use of the word corruption for most cases of domestic corruption no matter what size they are. Token cases are
    covered since a total blackout would be too obvious.

    The California high speed rail project "just ran out of money". We are talking billions of dollars spent and nothing
    delivered. This Ka-62 case is small time and got exposed. Anyone expecting zero corruption is living in cloud kookoo
    fantasy land.

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    Post  GarryB on Mon Oct 19, 2020 3:49 am

    Too many foreign components... it is essentially a new helicopter that fits between the Mi-2 which was foreign produced anyway, and the Mi-8/17 which is just a little too big for some jobs.

    I would think the Ansat and Ka-226 made an Mi-2 replacement less urgent, and I would think foreign helicopters will sneak in to fill the gap if they don't sort their shit out and get rid of the french and austrian parts...
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Mon Oct 19, 2020 4:42 pm

    GarryB wrote:Too many foreign components... it is essentially a new helicopter that fits between the Mi-2 which was foreign produced anyway, and the Mi-8/17 which is just a little too big for some jobs.

    I would think the Ansat and Ka-226 made an Mi-2 replacement less urgent, and I would think foreign helicopters will sneak in to fill the gap if they don't sort their shit out and get rid of the french and austrian parts...

    Well Ansat and Ka226 are about half of the size of the Ka60/ ka62...

    And probably you are right... too many foreign components... anyway it is not a superfluous program. The aircraft will be used and may have also a good export potential, currently hampered by the fact that several of possible customer for Russian equipment are not in Washington's friends list, so until there are foreign components those helicopters cannot be easily exported.

    Note: I am not only talking about the military version, even the purely civilian version can be blocked (as US blocked the export of ssj100 to Iran).

    Anyway the domestic engine for it should be ready in the next 3 to 4 years. Unfortunately the one in development from Saturn and announced in their website since at least 15 years went nowhere.
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    Post  kvs on Mon Oct 19, 2020 4:56 pm

    Even if it has too many foreign components, that is a great opportunity to implement domestic production of replacements.
    I think that the foreign components reflect the under-developed state of Russian industry and not just some fetish for
    magical western parts. So this product can be a driver for development.

    If you don't try, then nothing gets done.
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Mon Oct 19, 2020 5:21 pm

    A very interesting article on the widebody issue (I did not report here the translation of the part about the chinese needs and goal, please see it directly in the link below).

    The only question here is why (according to the author) should the development of a 2 engine version of the il96 will be so much expensive that it will be a problem for Russia....
    It cannot be compared with the development cost of the A380, that was much bigger than anything built by airbus before.

    https://aviation21.ru/cr929-zachem-etot-samolyot-nuzhen-kitayu-i-zachem-rossii/

    CR929 - why does China need this plane and why Russia


    Published by 10/18/2020, 11:09 PM |


    (...)
    Russia's goals:
    1. Possibility to share the costs of developing the SHFDMS.
    2. Get a capacious Chinese air passenger market.
    3. Eliminate the transfer of key technologies to Beijing.
    Currently, work is underway in Russia to resume production of the Il-96-400M. This liner should be viewed as a transitional aircraft until the CR929 appears. The Il-96-400M is unable to fully compete with the B787, A330neo or A350 aircraft. A four-engine aircraft of comparable passenger capacity will always lose in economic efficiency to a two-engine liner, especially if a four-engine aircraft is equipped with a power plant of the previous generation.
    According to the chief designer of CR929 from the Russian side, Maxim Litvinov, in the next 20 years, the Russian market for SHFDMS will comprise 50 aircraft, and the Chinese market - 450-500 aircraft. KLA sees Russia's need for wide-body aircraft until 2037 in the amount of 140 aircraft, of which 63 airliners belong to the group of up to 300 seats. The demand of Chinese airlines for ShF aircraft is 9 times more and amounts to 1,260 airliners.


    (...)
    Russia can independently develop such an aircraft, but selling even 200-300 aircraft of this type is not a real task. First of all, due to the lack of demand for such quantities of SHFDMS in the domestic market. Secondly, in order to sell such machines abroad, very broad cooperation with foreign suppliers is required. But in the context of incessant sanctions and the refusal of foreign "partners" to work with Russian high-tech companies both under current and future contracts, this is completely unpromising. Loyal countries will buy cars with only Russian components, but such countries, as a rule, need single-piece wide-body aircraft. Therefore, it is advisable to divide on an equal footing the cost of developing a promising liner, while agreeing, that the final assembly will be carried out in Shanghai, leaving behind the design, testing and production of the most complex part of the airframe - the PKM wing. And no matter how selfish it sounds, a partner in the person of China, having a very capacious market, will provide both countries with a return on the development costs of the aircraft.

    (...)

    Russia can independently develop such an aircraft, but selling even 200-300 aircraft of this type is not a real task. First of all, due to the lack of demand for such quantities of SHFDMS in the domestic market. Secondly, in order to sell such machines abroad, very broad cooperation with foreign suppliers is required. But in the context of incessant sanctions and the refusal of foreign "partners" to work with Russian high-tech companies both under current and future contracts, this is completely unpromising. Loyal countries will buy cars with only Russian components, but such countries, as a rule, need single-piece wide-body aircraft. Therefore, it is advisable to divide on an equal footing the cost of developing a promising liner, while agreeing, that the final assembly will be carried out in Shanghai, leaving behind the design, testing and production of the most complex part of the airframe - the PKM wing. And no matter how selfish it sounds, a partner in the person of China, having a very capacious market, will provide both countries with a return on the development costs of the aircraft.
    Participation in the CR929 joint project does not imply the transfer of key technologies to Beijing. Because of this, certain circles in the PRC consider Russia not a very good partner. Basically, we are not trying to be "white and fluffy" for everyone. Naturally, China wants to get everything at once for its money invested in the development of the liner. But it doesn't work that way. India also demanded to share the key technologies of the Su-57 (PAK FA, FGFA), Russia did not agree to this, and the fifth generation fighter for Delhi is not visible even in the long term. Therefore, the "epithets" about "bad and petty partners", which are given in the publicationGuanzha, we will consider a manifestation of small human weaknesses.
    Thus, both countries want to develop their own wide-body passenger aircraft, and the joint development could reduce costs and expand the original customer base. But Beijing, given the inability to independently build a modern wide-body airliner and the capacity of its market for passenger air transportation, is vitally interested in the CR929 project. At the same time, Russia should not selfishly use China's technological dependence in this area, but participate in the joint project as widely as possible.
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    Post  Maximmmm on Mon Oct 19, 2020 8:34 pm

    Rodion_Romanovic wrote:A very interesting article on the widebody issue (I did not report here the translation of the part about the chinese needs and goal, please see it directly in the link below).

    The only question here is why (according to the author) should the development of a 2 engine version of the il96 will be so much expensive that it will be a problem for Russia....
    It cannot be compared with the development cost of the A380, that was much bigger than anything built by airbus before.



    Looks like I was bang on with my guess, domestic market is valued at around 50 planes for the larger ones.
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    Post  william.boutros on Mon Oct 19, 2020 8:54 pm

    Rodion_Romanovic wrote:A very interesting article on the widebody issue (I did not report here the translation of the part about the chinese needs and goal, please see it directly in the link below).

    The only question here is why (according to the author) should the development of a 2 engine version of the il96 will be so much expensive that it will be a problem for Russia....
    It cannot be compared with the development cost of the A380, that was much bigger than anything built by airbus before.

    https://aviation21.ru/cr929-zachem-etot-samolyot-nuzhen-kitayu-i-zachem-rossii/

    CR929 - why does China need this plane and why Russia


    Published by 10/18/2020, 11:09 PM |


    (...)
    Russia's goals:
    1. Possibility to share the costs of developing the SHFDMS.
    2. Get a capacious Chinese air passenger market.
    3. Eliminate the transfer of key technologies to Beijing.
    Currently, work is underway in Russia to resume production of the Il-96-400M. This liner should be viewed as a transitional aircraft until the CR929 appears. The Il-96-400M is unable to fully compete with the B787, A330neo or A350 aircraft. A four-engine aircraft of comparable passenger capacity will always lose in economic efficiency to a two-engine liner, especially if a four-engine aircraft is equipped with a power plant of the previous generation.
    According to the chief designer of CR929 from the Russian side, Maxim Litvinov, in the next 20 years, the Russian market for SHFDMS will comprise 50 aircraft, and the Chinese market - 450-500 aircraft. KLA sees Russia's need for wide-body aircraft until 2037 in the amount of 140 aircraft, of which 63 airliners belong to the group of up to 300 seats. The demand of Chinese airlines for ShF aircraft is 9 times more and amounts to 1,260 airliners.


    (...)
    Russia can independently develop such an aircraft, but selling even 200-300 aircraft of this type is not a real task. First of all, due to the lack of demand for such quantities of SHFDMS in the domestic market. Secondly, in order to sell such machines abroad, very broad cooperation with foreign suppliers is required. But in the context of incessant sanctions and the refusal of foreign "partners" to work with Russian high-tech companies both under current and future contracts, this is completely unpromising. Loyal countries will buy cars with only Russian components, but such countries, as a rule, need single-piece wide-body aircraft. Therefore, it is advisable to divide on an equal footing the cost of developing a promising liner, while agreeing, that the final assembly will be carried out in Shanghai, leaving behind the design, testing and production of the most complex part of the airframe - the PKM wing. And no matter how selfish it sounds, a partner in the person of China, having a very capacious market, will provide both countries with a return on the development costs of the aircraft.

    (...)

    Russia can independently develop such an aircraft, but selling even 200-300 aircraft of this type is not a real task. First of all, due to the lack of demand for such quantities of SHFDMS in the domestic market. Secondly, in order to sell such machines abroad, very broad cooperation with foreign suppliers is required. But in the context of incessant sanctions and the refusal of foreign "partners" to work with Russian high-tech companies both under current and future contracts, this is completely unpromising. Loyal countries will buy cars with only Russian components, but such countries, as a rule, need single-piece wide-body aircraft. Therefore, it is advisable to divide on an equal footing the cost of developing a promising liner, while agreeing, that the final assembly will be carried out in Shanghai, leaving behind the design, testing and production of the most complex part of the airframe - the PKM wing. And no matter how selfish it sounds, a partner in the person of China, having a very capacious market, will provide both countries with a return on the development costs of the aircraft.
    Participation in the CR929 joint project does not imply the transfer of key technologies to Beijing. Because of this, certain circles in the PRC consider Russia not a very good partner. Basically, we are not trying to be "white and fluffy" for everyone. Naturally, China wants to get everything at once for its money invested in the development of the liner. But it doesn't work that way. India also demanded to share the key technologies of the Su-57 (PAK FA, FGFA), Russia did not agree to this, and the fifth generation fighter for Delhi is not visible even in the long term. Therefore, the "epithets" about "bad and petty partners", which are given in the publication Guanzha, we will consider a manifestation of small human weaknesses.
    Thus, both countries want to develop their own wide-body passenger aircraft, and the joint development could reduce costs and expand the original customer base. But Beijing, given the inability to independently build a modern wide-body airliner and the capacity of its market for passenger air transportation, is vitally interested in the CR929 project. At the same time, Russia should not selfishly use China's technological dependence in this area, but participate in the joint project as widely as possible.

    It is expensive because it is not simply a 2 engine version. It starts with a new wing and doesn't end with a new landing gear. Russia does not need CR929 unless it is going to make decent money from China.
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    Post  kvs on Mon Oct 19, 2020 9:30 pm

    The author is being hyper capitalist of the purist sort. Boeing gets massive subsidies from the US government by being one of the parasite
    MIC companies. Airbus is also tied into the military welfare trough. So BSing about Russia not pursuing its own high end liner production
    takes the cake for total nonsense. The objective should be independence from NATzO and not some purist capitalist religion adherence.
    If the government needs to subsidize the domestic 50 aircraft market, then that is perfectly fine. There will be positive stimulus
    outside of this narrow production which may actually help Russian military aviation.

    Also, is Russia supposed to drop PD-35 development because it will never be deployed to thousands of aircraft? Obviously not.
    The Il-96 with two PD-35 engines should be national priority. Waiting for the "market" to make progress is like waiting for the
    cows to come back to the barn.

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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Mon Oct 19, 2020 10:10 pm

    Well anyway if the CR929 proceed, most of the development cost for a new wing can be covered by this program. They may be able to reuse it for a twin engine aircraft based on the CR929 as well. Actually they can make the new il 96, a sort of russified CR929, where all the Chinese and foreign components are replaced by russian ones. If the market is for 50 widebodies for passenger planes in Russia, than they can split it between the 2 (not to piss off china too much). In addition another 20 or so new il 96 could be produced as refueling aircrafts, maybe 5 for government use and another 30 as civilian cargo (Volga dnepr a couple of years ago was planning to buy about the same number of 777 in cargo version, in addition to the 747

    https://theloadstar.com/volga-dnepr-stuns-market-multi-billion-dollar-order-boeing-freighters/
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    Post  flamming_python on Mon Oct 19, 2020 11:26 pm

    I don't see anything wrong with Russia moving forward on the Russo-Chinese project full steam and throwing its chips in

    Let's not forget that Airbus buys its titanium wing sections from Russia

    And Boeing buys even more titanium parts and sections, and also has an R&D centre in Moscow. The 787 was designed in a large part in Russia.

    In other words Russia already profits from each widebody airliner sold.

    In this way, with the introduction of the CR929 that's going to have more Russian input and parts than ever - Moscow will preserve and increase its stake in the entire widebody market. No-one will hurry to end co-operation with it, and if a country or a bloc does than it can always buy the wideliners it needs from a competing party.

    The new Il-96 IMO isn't such a priority. With the technologies they develop and experience gained, Russia can eventually upgrade it, but there's no sense in making it a national program or investing too much.
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    Post  kvs on Tue Oct 20, 2020 1:11 am

    Russia can independently develop such an aircraft, but selling even 200-300 aircraft of this type is not a real task.

    Wow, such deep insight. Any more sky is falling BS for us? How does this "expert" know that Russia will be totally unable to sell
    any two engine Il-96 outside of Russia? Does he have a crystal ball?

    With western currency speculators obsessed with driving down the ruble forex "value", by the time this aircraft is certified it may cost
    less than 50% of anything from the super duper rich west. There will be more than a few buyers for it.

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    Post  GarryB on Tue Oct 20, 2020 7:35 am

    Well Ansat and Ka226 are about half of the size of the Ka60/ ka62...

    Of course, but in the past they have generally just gotten the job done with an Mi-2 or an Mi-8, which has been relatively inefficient when the Mi-8 was needed for a job that could have been done by a smaller aircraft like a west Jet Ranger helicopter or something.

    The lack of urgency to replace a specific aircraft that is no longer available because smaller helicopters and Mi-2s are there as well as foreign helicopters means it has never been considered an urgent issue...

    And probably you are right... too many foreign components... anyway it is not a superfluous program. The aircraft will be used and may have also a good export potential, currently hampered by the fact that several of possible customer for Russian equipment are not in Washington's friends list, so until there are foreign components those helicopters cannot be easily exported.

    The US and UK and France and Germany will use any strings to manipulate Russia so foreign components are a definite handicap.

    Some of the products are very good and widely used so some customers might appreciate them but the problem is that even a non aligned Russian friendly company might stop cooperating if the US threatens access to the US market over this sort of crap.

    It also means the value of the ruble becomes irrelevant because you are spending all your money in rubles with no conversions or changes in value over time...

    And the lower international value of the ruble means export and domestic prices can be lower too.

    Note: I am not only talking about the military version, even the purely civilian version can be blocked (as US blocked the export of ssj100 to Iran).

    Having all Russian parts and components means real independence from western interference.

    And those Russian parts and avionics can be adapted to be used in western platforms too... the next western sanctions can be countered with requirements for aircraft operating in Russian airspace to have a certain Russian Avionics product installed and working... as an example... for safety... of course.

    Anyway the domestic engine for it should be ready in the next 3 to 4 years. Unfortunately the one in development from Saturn and announced in their website since at least 15 years went nowhere.

    Some people blame corruption and theft and all sorts of shit but ultimately without engines these cannot be completed and engines take time.

    In addition another 20 or so new il 96 could be produced as refueling aircrafts, maybe 5 for government use and another 30 as civilian cargo (Volga dnepr a couple of years ago was planning to buy about the same number of 777 in cargo version, in addition to the 747

    Would make an interesting alternative replacement for the Tu-142 MPA.... and certainly an ideal inflight refuelling tanker specificially for strategic bombers and cargo carriers...
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    Post  Maximmmm on Thu Oct 22, 2020 12:43 pm

    Some random news:

    Il-114 testing with new engines: https://sdelanounas.ru/blogs/136769/
    Planned for certification in 2022

    Testing of Russian composite wing for MS-21 going well so far:
    https://sdelanounas.ru/blogs/136771/
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    Post  kvs on Thu Oct 22, 2020 5:39 pm

    Maximmmm wrote:

    Testing of Russian composite wing for MS-21 going well so far:
    https://sdelanounas.ru/blogs/136771/

    This is not a surprise.   The only difference is the sourcing of raw materials and not the manufacturing process.   If the previous
    wing worked, then so will this one.   Russian raw inputs may actually be superior to what foreign suppliers were offering.
    Russia is the only country on the planet that has industrial volume production of carbon nanotubes.

    https://industryeurope.com/sectors/construction-engineering/ocsial-achieves-75-tonne-graphene-nanotube-production/

    The article makes it sound like there are other companies supplying the market.   There aren't.   Lab samples are not industrial
    production.
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    Post  Maximmmm on Fri Oct 23, 2020 1:28 pm

    More good stuff:

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    Post  william.boutros on Tue Oct 27, 2020 8:56 pm

    Rodion_Romanovic wrote:Well anyway if the CR929 proceed, most of the development cost for a new wing can be covered by this program. They may be able to reuse it for a twin engine aircraft based on the CR929 as well. Actually they can make the new il 96, a sort of russified CR929, where all the Chinese and foreign components are replaced by russian ones. If the market is for 50 widebodies for passenger planes in Russia, than they can split it between the 2 (not to piss off china too much). In addition another 20 or so new il 96 could be produced as refueling aircrafts, maybe 5 for government use and another 30 as civilian cargo (Volga dnepr a couple of years ago was planning to buy about the same number of 777 in cargo version, in addition to the 747

    https://theloadstar.com/volga-dnepr-stuns-market-multi-billion-dollar-order-boeing-freighters/

    Man, you need to work in business.
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Wed Oct 28, 2020 12:37 pm

    william.boutros wrote:
    Rodion_Romanovic wrote:Well anyway if the CR929 proceed, most of the development cost for a new wing can be covered by this program. They may be able to reuse it for a twin engine aircraft based on the CR929 as well. Actually they can make the new il 96, a sort of russified CR929, where all the Chinese and foreign components are replaced by russian ones. If the market is for 50 widebodies for passenger planes in Russia, than they can split it between the 2 (not to piss off china too much). In addition another 20 or so new il 96 could be produced as refueling aircrafts, maybe 5 for government use and another 30 as civilian cargo (Volga dnepr a couple of years ago was planning to buy about the same number of 777 in cargo version, in addition to the 747

    https://theloadstar.com/volga-dnepr-stuns-market-multi-billion-dollar-order-boeing-freighters/

    Man, you need to work in business.

    Like the people in business that destroyed the russian civil aviation industry in the 90s?

    Or those in the West that kill their own supply chain and thrusted suppliers in their own country because they can spare some pennies by moving production to china?

    I know that a company does not care directly about the state of engineering firms and employment of highly trained engineering professionals (plus of course trained mechanics and fitters, that also cannot be taken straight from schools, but also need years of training), but a country (and a state company) should plan of it.

    Or by subcontracting some work to cheaper engineering companies in India?

    and then you need to have your own team work overtime to crosscheck or redo every analysis because they were done incorrectly or ot not up to company standard?
    In some cases at the end you need to spend even more money and pay very expensive high quality engineering consultants firms to help you with that (because in the meanwhile you reduced your headcount since you offloaded part of your engineering work to cheaper subcontractors in other countries).

    Man, you need to work in engineering!


    Why a large part of the people working in business do not have a clue of medium and long term consequences of their actions?

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    Post  LMFS on Wed Oct 28, 2020 1:10 pm

    Rodion_Romanovic wrote:Man, you need to work in engineering!

    Why a large part of the people working in business do not have a clue of medium and long term consequences of their actions?

    respekt thumbsup

    Well said. The world is seriously fucked-up due to so many arrogant managers thinking that actual engineering can be faked as easily as powerpoints. This people need to be sent back to school (with a stopover in jail) and let the ones that actually know what they are doing take care.

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    Post  Maximmmm on Wed Oct 28, 2020 1:22 pm

    LMFS wrote:
    Rodion_Romanovic wrote:Man, you need to work in engineering!

    Why a large part of the people working in business do not have a clue of medium and long term consequences of their actions?

    respekt thumbsup

    Well said. The world is seriously fucked-up due to so many arrogant managers thinking that actual engineering can be faked as easily as powerpoints. This people need to be sent back to school (with a stopover in jail) and let the ones that actually know what they are doing take care.

    I mean it's a fundamental reason boeing has fucked up so hard. The merger with mcdonnell douglas removed all the previous boeing upper management which traditionally came from engineers. Then they moved their hq to Chicago because they wanted to.
    We're not the only ones to fuck up like that.

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    Post  LMFS on Wed Oct 28, 2020 1:38 pm

    I would say it is a fundamentally Western problem, consistent with a general rot in society and economy. Russia seems to be doing much better, even when you also seem to have your share of "efficient" managers Wink
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    Post  kvs on Wed Oct 28, 2020 7:01 pm

    LMFS wrote:
    Rodion_Romanovic wrote:Man, you need to work in engineering!

    Why a large part of the people working in business do not have a clue of medium and long term consequences of their actions?

    respekt thumbsup

    Well said. The world is seriously fucked-up due to so many arrogant managers thinking that actual engineering can be faked as easily as powerpoints. This people need to be sent back to school (with a stopover in jail) and let the ones that actually know what they are doing take care.

    Management is a whole different universe. In the Canadian government they decided to adopt the management fashion that
    managers do not have to have any experience with the activity they are managing. Yes, that is the S Class nonsense that
    is popular these days. Back in the day (maybe not so good but better than now in many ways) managers would start at the
    bottom and work their way up. So engineers would be managing engineers, etc. These managers knew the nuances of their
    field (if they were competent) and did their job well.

    Now we have the idiotic belief that some manager trained in "management studies" (much like gender studies which are part
    of the larger class called basket weaving) have all the tools to manage. That they will not understand the problems and limitations
    of what they are managing is somehow not important. They just need to follow a cookie cutter template and everything will be
    hunky dory. Doing science for a living, I can say outright that this is total, unmitigated garbage "thinking". The saying "the
    Devil is in the details" is folk wisdom from thousands of years of real world experience. A manager who does not have experience
    as an engineer cannot manage engineering activity properly. No ifs and buts about it. Spending all your time in long meetings
    trying to basically teach your manager how to walk is a total and criminal waste of time. And how is the manager supposed to
    have authority if his underlings are more qualified to make most of the decisions?

    Rodion_Romanovic, miketheterrible and LMFS like this post

    miketheterrible
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    Post  miketheterrible on Wed Oct 28, 2020 7:21 pm

    kvs wrote:
    LMFS wrote:
    Rodion_Romanovic wrote:Man, you need to work in engineering!

    Why a large part of the people working in business do not have a clue of medium and long term consequences of their actions?

    respekt thumbsup

    Well said. The world is seriously fucked-up due to so many arrogant managers thinking that actual engineering can be faked as easily as powerpoints. This people need to be sent back to school (with a stopover in jail) and let the ones that actually know what they are doing take care.

    Management is a whole different universe.   In the Canadian government they decided to adopt the management fashion that
    managers do not have to have any experience with the activity they are managing.    Yes, that is the S Class nonsense that
    is popular these days.   Back in the day (maybe not so good but better than now in many ways) managers would start at the
    bottom and work their way up.   So engineers would be managing engineers, etc.   These managers knew the nuances of their
    field (if they were competent) and did their job well.

    Now we have the idiotic belief that some manager trained in "management studies" (much like gender studies which are part
    of the larger class called basket weaving) have all the tools to manage.   That they will not understand the problems and limitations
    of what they are managing is somehow not important.   They just need to follow a cookie cutter template and everything will be
    hunky dory.   Doing science for a living, I can say outright that this is total, unmitigated garbage "thinking".   The saying "the
    Devil is in the details" is folk wisdom from thousands of years of real world experience.   A manager who does not have experience
    as an engineer cannot manage engineering activity properly.   No ifs and buts about it.    Spending all your time in long meetings
    trying to basically teach your manager how to walk is a total and criminal waste of time.    And how is the manager supposed to
    have authority if his underlings are more qualified to make most of the decisions?


    This is evident in my workplace.

    Lots of managers incapable of dealing with the tasks at hand. They mostly just walk around with coffee in their hands, every now and then chit chat with some of the crew, and then call to demand numbers from me. Then they pat themselves on the back telling themselves or their colleagues of how great a job they did

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    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Wed Oct 28, 2020 9:42 pm

    Last commercial flight of the Tu-154: https://ria.ru/20201028/tu-154-1581865614.html

    There were plans to take the middle engine off to reduce fuel consumption, but they had no engines powerful enough for such a heavy plane.
    Rodion_Romanovic
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Wed Oct 28, 2020 10:34 pm

    Tsavo Lion wrote:Last commercial flight of the Tu-154: https://ria.ru/20201028/tu-154-1581865614.html

    There were plans to take the middle engine off to reduce fuel consumption, but they had no engines powerful enough for such a heavy plane.

    Well it had a long service life and transported lots of passengers, too bad that the Tu-204 did not have this possibility (even if the Tu-204 will be able to serve still for many years in some special roles).
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Thu Oct 29, 2020 9:02 am

    Well said. The world is seriously fucked-up due to so many arrogant managers thinking that actual engineering can be faked as easily as powerpoints. This people need to be sent back to school (with a stopover in jail) and let the ones that actually know what they are doing take care.

    The real problem is that the focus is on profit for the share holders and nothing else... work the workers as hard as you can with as few as you can get away with... pay them minimum wage and expect 100% effort 24/7... who cares about the customer or customer service... keep the chit chat for your own time, no gossip and how many customers can you serve per hour... volume is what counts.

    It is easy to fool a boss who has never done the job and doesn't really know what you do, but then you get a paranoid one that thinks you are scamming them and just screwing around most of the day...

    Companies with no social conscience and no morality are what are destroying communities and countries...

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