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71 posters

    Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship

    PapaDragon
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    Post  PapaDragon Tue Dec 31, 2019 5:56 pm

    Isos wrote:They talked about a ASW karakurt. Maybe it is this one.

    Plus there don't seem to be any sonars on it

    And how would they use paket nk if there is no sonar ? Put their heads into water and listen with their ears ?! lol1

    Detecting torpedo coming at you is lot simpler than looking for submarines

    Torpedos aren't exactly quiet

    But if you see a sonar on that thing do share because there's nothing on it

    Wasting all that space on what supposed to be anti-sub ship at the expense of helicopter is epic stupidity

    You hunt subs with helicopters





    TheArmenian
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    Post  TheArmenian Wed Jan 01, 2020 1:01 am

    If the Intermediate Range missile Treaty was going to survive, I would have said: Build as many as possible of this 16 Kalibr version ship.

    But since the treaty is going, going, gone... It is no longer necessary to build a very large number of the Kalibr armed ships since it will be more cost effective to re-arm the existing ISKANDER launchers with Kalibr missiles.
    The 18 Karakurt and 12 Buyan-M vessels built, building and ordered are sufficient. I think funds should go elsewhere.
    magnumcromagnon
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    Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship - Page 31 Empty Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship

    Post  magnumcromagnon Wed Jan 01, 2020 1:07 am

    TheArmenian wrote:If the Intermediate Range missile Treaty was going to survive, I would have said: Build as many as possible of this 16 Kalibr version ship.

    But since the treaty is going, going, gone... It is no longer necessary to build a very large number of the Kalibr armed ships since it will be more cost effective to re-arm the existing ISKANDER launchers with Kalibr missiles.
    The 18 Karakurt and 12 Buyan-M vessels built, building and ordered are sufficient. I think funds should go elsewhere.

    It's must of been a full year and a half since you last posted, welcome back! I also agree, the INF is dead so keep on 'trucking!'
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    william.boutros


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    Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship - Page 31 Empty Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship

    Post  william.boutros Wed Jan 01, 2020 10:14 pm

    TheArmenian wrote:If the Intermediate Range missile Treaty was going to survive, I would have said: Build as many as possible of this 16 Kalibr version ship.

    But since the treaty is going, going, gone... It is no longer necessary to build a very large number of the Kalibr armed ships since it will be more cost effective to re-arm the existing ISKANDER launchers with Kalibr missiles.
    The 18 Karakurt and 12 Buyan-M vessels built, building and ordered are sufficient. I think funds should go elsewhere.

    They should probably sell those Buyan-Ms and build Karakurt with missles. They are good for Vietnam, Algeria, Syria, Indonesia and co.
    They also need to invest in a dozen stretched Gorshkov and stop producing short series of vessels.
    PapaDragon
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    Post  PapaDragon Wed Jan 01, 2020 11:50 pm


    These new Karakurts are simple evolution of regular ones not a replacement for larger vessels

    It all comes down to new missiles

    New Karakurts would be cheap floating missile trucks capable of defending themselves against torpedos and missiles/planes long enough to retaliate with Onix/Zircon against closest enemy vessel

    For enemy it would mean trading a destroyer for a tiny missile ship in the best case scenario while the worst case scenario would be... unthinkable and unacceptable

    As for land based component they need to keep making missile trucks, ones with six missiles per truck and six times as many trucks than originally planned

    Isos
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    Post  Isos Wed Jan 01, 2020 11:59 pm

    magnumcromagnon wrote:
    TheArmenian wrote:If the Intermediate Range missile Treaty was going to survive, I would have said: Build as many as possible of this 16 Kalibr version ship.

    But since the treaty is going, going, gone... It is no longer necessary to build a very large number of the Kalibr armed ships since it will be more cost effective to re-arm the existing ISKANDER launchers with Kalibr missiles.
    The 18 Karakurt and 12 Buyan-M vessels built, building and ordered are sufficient. I think funds should go elsewhere.

    It's must of been a full year and a half since you last posted, welcome back! I also agree, the INF is dead so keep on 'trucking!'

    Ships offers more flexibility in the use of kalibr than a truck that is limited to mai land borders.

    That becomes less and less important as the range of missiles increase but it is still important as we can see in Syria, operations can be far away and surrounded by enemy countries above which you can't use your weapons.

    Missile boat are a cheap way of having 8 or 16 ready to fire missiles anywhere you want.
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    hoom


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    Post  hoom Sat Jan 04, 2020 7:28 am

    Wow thats a really interesting change.

    Reverts to the first version of the mast with apparently Positiv radar.
    8* Redut seems a weird choice for SAMs, fine if its quad-packed 9M100 but why make that change unless Pantsir-M development is in trouble? (Which I think it may well be given the non-appearance of production modules at the wall of Pella)
    The new Tor shown next to the Udaloy model in the other thread seems like a better fit.
    Or they are Tor modules?
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    hoom


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    Post  hoom Tue Jan 07, 2020 9:14 am

    Interesting aerial angle of one of the Kerch ships
    Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship - Page 31 SNi1wvlCTy6s_UodQm-LdA
    PapaDragon
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    Post  PapaDragon Tue Jan 07, 2020 2:39 pm

    hoom wrote:Wow thats a really interesting change.

    Reverts to the first version of the mast with apparently Positiv radar.
    8* Redut seems a weird choice for SAMs, fine if its quad-packed 9M100 but why make that change unless Pantsir-M development is in trouble? (Which I think it may well be given the non-appearance of production modules at the wall of Pella)
    The new Tor shown next to the Udaloy model in the other thread seems like a better fit.
    Or they are Tor modules?


    Whichever they are I think that their primary purpose is missile defense not anti-aircraft work

    Basically this ship would be Karakurt on steroids, twice the UKSK and enough anti-torpedo and anti-missile defenses to last long enough to all launch those missiles at the closest available target group even in worst case scenario

    Isos
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    Post  Isos Tue Jan 07, 2020 6:18 pm

    Must have happened one day or another. Contrary to what many say here, delays are an issue for russian navy.

    Rob Lee
    @RALee85
    ·
    17h
    The Russian MoD has taken the Pella Shipyard to court seeking 2.93 billion rubles over the delayed delivery of the  Mytishchi Project 22800 Karakurt-class small missile ship.

    https://mobile.twitter.com/RALee85/status/1214328586037071873
    Viktor
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    Post  Viktor Tue Jan 07, 2020 7:43 pm

    Isos wrote:Must have happened one day or another. Contrary to what many say here, delays are an issue for russian navy.

    Rob Lee
    @RALee85
    ·
    17h
    The Russian MoD has taken the Pella Shipyard to court seeking 2.93 billion rubles over the delayed delivery of the  Mytishchi Project 22800 Karakurt-class small missile ship.

    https://mobile.twitter.com/RALee85/status/1214328586037071873


    Taunting responsibility will cut delivery time.

    Basically if you are constantly improving delivery time you have two choices by which you can observe such situation. You can say as you have that Russians are constantly

    lagging when than is being said as per western press say it is because they are lazy drunks and so so or you can observe the direction of the arrow in which the process is heading

    and than observe the method by which is happening.
    Hole
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    Post  Hole Sat Jan 11, 2020 9:11 pm

    More pics from the new model.
    Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship - Page 31 22800m10
    Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship - Page 31 22800m11
    Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship - Page 31 22800m12
    PapaDragon
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    Post  PapaDragon Sat Jan 11, 2020 9:22 pm


    That's a damn fine missile ship, this is good approach thumbsup
    JohninMK
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    Post  JohninMK Sat Jan 11, 2020 10:08 pm

    A lot of firepower in a small space.
    Isos
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    Post  Isos Sat Jan 11, 2020 11:34 pm

    Pretty useless. Better put money on frigates since it is armed like a frigate. Could at least go further and be usefull for payroling far away.

    The stealth shape are no longer stealth also.
    JohninMK
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    Post  JohninMK Sat Jan 11, 2020 11:44 pm

    Isos wrote:Pretty useless. Better put money on frigates since it is armed like a frigate. Could at least go further and be usefull for payroling far away.

    The stealth shape are no longer stealth also.
    Isn't it a pretty good ship for the Baltic, Black Sea and eastern Med? Plus a good export prospect, most navies do not need 'blue water' capabilities.
    Isos
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    Post  Isos Sat Jan 11, 2020 11:54 pm

    JohninMK wrote:
    Isos wrote:Pretty useless. Better put money on frigates since it is armed like a frigate. Could at least go further and be usefull for payroling far away.

    The stealth shape are no longer stealth also.
    Isn't it a pretty good ship for the Baltic, Black Sea and eastern Med? Plus a good export prospect, most navies do not need 'blue water' capabilities.

    All of those seas are surounded by powerful countries with very good airforces. A missile boat won't last a lot against them. And frankly speaking now they can have truck mounted UKSK making the missile boats not a critical need.

    Agree for export they are pretty nice.
    Big_Gazza
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    Post  Big_Gazza Sun Jan 12, 2020 12:39 am

    Isos wrote:Pretty useless. Better put money on frigates since it is armed like a frigate. Could at least go further and be usefull for payroling far away.

    The stealth shape are no longer stealth also.

    Wut? So you think the Osa, Nanuchka and Tarantul missile boats have all been a waste of time? Or that the current 22800s are useless?

    Missile boats bring anti-surface capability to home waters. Big punch, small & inexpensive vessel. Sure they don't do layered AD, and don't do ASW, but on a hull with less than 1000T displacement what do you want?

    You just can't pls some people.
    PapaDragon
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    Post  PapaDragon Sun Jan 12, 2020 3:02 am

    Isos wrote:Pretty useless. Better put money on frigates since it is armed like a frigate. Could at least go further and be usefull for payroling far away.

    The stealth shape are no longer stealth also.

    Those frigates will last even less against enemy airforce since they are much bigger targets

    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Sun Jan 12, 2020 3:41 am

    They will be rather more use in and around Russian waters than any star destroyers they eventually produce.

    For most jobs they are more than adequate and actually quite modern and up to date with fire power comparable to much larger ships in those big powerful NATO navies that keep getting mentioned...

    Of course compared with them... these boats will be more than enough because when those big NATO super navies come to engage then MiG-31s with hypersonic 2K km range missiles to eliminate the problem and they can continue doing what they were doing...
    Isos
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    Post  Isos Sun Jan 12, 2020 9:09 am

    Big_Gazza wrote:
    Isos wrote:Pretty useless. Better put money on frigates since it is armed like a frigate. Could at least go further and be usefull for payroling far away.

    The stealth shape are no longer stealth also.

    Wut?  So you think the Osa, Nanuchka and Tarantul missile boats have all been a waste of time? Or that the current 22800s are useless?

    Missile boats bring anti-surface capability to home waters. Big punch, small & inexpensive vessel.  Sure they don't do layered AD, and don't do ASW, but on a hull with less than 1000T displacement what do you want?

    You just can't pls some people.

    This one is armed like a little frigate. It won't be cheap.

    Look at missile boat combat history. They are easy targets for airforces. They are usefull when you can protect them with bigger ships.

    Those frigates will last even less against enemy airforce since they are much bigger targets

    If they are armed with 9m96 they can engage the enemy fighters. Modern frigates haveba rcs of a small fishing boat. They are not bigger target and this ship is clearly not stealthy.
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    Post  marat Sun Jan 12, 2020 9:33 am

    Fully agree with Isos.

    This ship will have  big RCS, even classic Karakut doesn't look to be very stealthy.

    This version instead to improve that, make it even worse.

    Ship is good armed but in small space. It has at least two additional weapon systems and will need to have sonar as well. All of that need more crew and more space for equipment,  crew and supplies. Electric production should be significantly increased, and it would need stronger power plant.


    Do we now dimensions and displacement? It should be at least 1200t. It have more armament then 22380 but withouth helicopter. So crew cannot be small.



    But we will see, if RuNavy adopt this class we have to believe that they know better then we do Smile


    Last edited by marat on Sun Jan 12, 2020 9:46 am; edited 1 time in total
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    Post  marat Sun Jan 12, 2020 9:41 am

    Big_Gazza wrote:
    Isos wrote:Pretty useless. Better put money on frigates since it is armed like a frigate. Could at least go further and be usefull for payroling far away.

    The stealth shape are no longer stealth also.

    Wut?  So you think the Osa, Nanuchka and Tarantul missile boats have all been a waste of time? Or that the current 22800s are useless?

    Missile boats bring anti-surface capability to home waters. Big punch, small & inexpensive vessel.  Sure they don't do layered AD, and don't do ASW, but on a hull with less than 1000T displacement what do you want?

    You just can't pls some people.

    Why you think it will be cheap? Steel plates are cheapest part of ship. Weapons and electronic make them expensive and this ship have asw weapons and equipment in addition to already existing weapons and equipment.  So it will have all expensive stuff but in cramped ship without good range and endurance.

    Putting so many weapons and equipment on small ship doesn't look rational to me. Warship first have to be good ship. This one will be still small, with very limited range and endurance, but quite expensive.


    Last edited by marat on Sun Jan 12, 2020 10:39 am; edited 1 time in total
    Isos
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    Post  Isos Sun Jan 12, 2020 9:51 am

    But we will see, if RuNavy adopt this class we have to believe that they know better then we do Smile

    Right. They never said it's gonna be build or ordered.
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    Post  marat Sun Jan 12, 2020 9:52 am

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Isos wrote:Pretty useless. Better put money on frigates since it is armed like a frigate. Could at least go further and be usefull for payroling far away.

    The stealth shape are no longer stealth also.

    Those frigates will last even less against enemy airforce since they are much bigger targets


    Size doesn't make them bigger target if they are more stealthy do you agree? This concept isn't stealth only Paket launcher probably have bigger rcs then most modern stealth frigates.


    I wouldn't bet that this ship is for RuNavy.

    It isn't stealthy. It isn't cheap. Small range and endurance.

    EDIT> and there are some interesting statements about big new order for 20380 class, and that would be my bet. Just to improve them. Russia need navy that can go away from shores.

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