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    Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship

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    hoom


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    Post  hoom Sun Nov 12, 2017 3:18 am

    For ship use? Simple: it can't take out an aircraft before aircraft takes out ship.
    With 20km range the Pantsir-M out ranges plenty of dedicated naval SAMs & is not far short of the 25km brand new CAMM being mounted on 8,000ton Royal Navy Type 26.
    I think its pretty fabulous AA for a 900ton boat.
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    Post  PapaDragon Sun Nov 12, 2017 4:15 am

    hoom wrote:
    For ship use? Simple: it can't take out an aircraft before aircraft takes out ship.
    With 20km range the Pantsir-M out ranges plenty of dedicated naval SAMs & is not far short of the 25km brand new CAMM being mounted on 8,000ton Royal Navy Type 26.
    I think its pretty fabulous AA for a 900ton boat.

    After some googling all I can say is shame on Royal Navy for slacking off. When did standards drop so low?

    As for these two Karakurts I stand by what I said: for land attacks from friendly waters of Black Sea they'll do fine.
    Isos
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    Post  Isos Sun Nov 12, 2017 5:03 am

    PapaDragon wrote:
    hoom wrote:
    For ship use? Simple: it can't take out an aircraft before aircraft takes out ship.
    With 20km range the Pantsir-M out ranges plenty of dedicated naval SAMs & is not far short of the 25km brand new CAMM being mounted on 8,000ton Royal Navy Type 26.
    I think its pretty fabulous AA for a 900ton boat.

    After some googling all I can say is shame on Royal Navy for slacking off. When did standards drop so low?

    As for these two Karakurts I stand by what I said: for land attacks from friendly waters of Black Sea they'll do fine.

    Yeah but they are meant to be part of naval group to fight other ships. If you want to lunch only 2500km Kalibr from oyour homeland and homewaters, you can use the container version on a truck or use the already build Buyan-M.

    Having a system like Pantsir and in big numbers in the middle of your naval group is really a bonus because it protects your bigger ships and you won't need to use the missiles of Redut from a the gorshkov class for exemple.
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    Post  KiloGolf Sun Nov 12, 2017 8:56 am

    Shtil can eat this naval Pantsir's lunch when it come to point defense.

    Unfortunately the Karakurt patrol boat concept (or better contraption) has been chosen by RuN instead of proper frigates like the Grigorovich. Why they can't evolve their frigates with the tech seen in this Karakurt is beyond me.
    SeigSoloyvov
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov Sun Nov 12, 2017 9:32 am

    KiloGolf wrote:Shtil can eat this naval Pantsir's lunch when it come to point defense.

    Unfortunately the Karakurt patrol boat concept (or better contraption) has been chosen by RuN instead of proper frigates like the Grigorovich. Why they can't evolve their frigates with the tech seen in this Karakurt is beyond me.

    these karakuts aren't mean to replace frigates they do not have the weapons for that, they are just to replace russia's missile boat groups.

    Don't get me wrong russia will use these like DD's for awhile since they won't have anything bigger in mass for awhile.

    Karakut is a good ship or it's mission which is a deep water patrol ship.
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    Post  KiloGolf Sun Nov 12, 2017 9:38 am

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:these karakuts aren't mean to replace frigates they do not have the weapons for that, they are just to replace russia's missile boat groups.

    Don't get me wrong russia will use these like DD's for awhile since they won't have anything bigger in mass for awhile.

    Karakut is a good ship or it's mission which is a deep water patrol ship.

    They aren't meant to replace them sure, but destroyers in the RuN are diminishing in numbers year after year, decade after decade. Frigate production seems to have stalled too.


    Last edited by KiloGolf on Sun Nov 12, 2017 9:52 am; edited 1 time in total
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov Sun Nov 12, 2017 9:46 am

    KiloGolf wrote:
    SeigSoloyvov wrote:these karakuts aren't mean to replace frigates they do not have the weapons for that, they are just to replace russia's missile boat groups.

    Don't get me wrong russia will use these like DD's for awhile since they won't have anything bigger in mass for awhile.

    Karakut is a good ship or it's mission which is a deep water patrol ship.

    They aren't meant to replace them sure, but destroyers in the RuN are diminishing in numbers year after year, decade after decade. Frigate production seems to gave stalled too.

    Yes that is their problem, even if they just had mostly frigates right now that would be fine. Still they seemed to stop laying them down, which is a shame.

    Russian DD's tho are just basically frigates now if you mean the sorv and Uda's their weapons aren't comparable to modern day DD's.
    Isos
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    Post  Isos Sun Nov 12, 2017 11:20 am

    KiloGolf wrote:
    SeigSoloyvov wrote:these karakuts aren't mean to replace frigates they do not have the weapons for that, they are just to replace russia's missile boat groups.

    Don't get me wrong russia will use these like DD's for awhile since they won't have anything bigger in mass for awhile.

    Karakut is a good ship or it's mission which is a deep water patrol ship.

    They aren't meant to replace them sure, but destroyers in the RuN are diminishing in numbers year after year, decade after decade. Frigate production seems to have stalled too.

    they have Grigorovitch and project 21956 but russian navy wants more modern ships to make them the backbone for their navy. They don't really know how to design their futur ships. We had gorshkov but now they want something bigger. We have lider design but its unlikly to see them anytime soon. So they build Karakurt to replace at least their old small corvettes and missiles boats with a ship that has UKSK, which is not bad at all.

    But I would love to see a more modern 21956 with more UKSK. Because they have a real S-300 on board (or S-400F if they could navalize the S-400) with long range missiles or quad pack 9M96 missiles.
    The design is based on Udaloy I think so they won't have issues building them.
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    Post  AlfaT8 Sun Nov 12, 2017 3:56 pm

    Ok, first off, is the Pantsir that's going on this ship not gonna be armed with the new 40km range missiles??

    As for Frigates, as far as i am aware of construction of the Grigorovichs have restarted.
    And recently by some Christmas miracle, a second Gorshkov has entered sea-trails.
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov Sun Nov 12, 2017 3:58 pm

    AlfaT8 wrote:Ok, first off, is the Pantsir that's going on this ship not gonna be armed with the new 40km range missiles??

    As for Frigates, as far as i am aware of construction of the Grigorovichs have restarted.
    And recently by some Christmas miracle, a second Gorshkov has entered sea-trails.

    Yes eight years certainly is a miracle for a 5k frigate.

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    Post  miroslav Sun Nov 12, 2017 4:31 pm

    Easy everybody, we all know the problems that they are facing in the shipbuilding industry, from the technical neglect of the 90s to the general corruption, thing are nevertheless moving in the right direction, at slow pace but moving.

    By the start of 2020 we will see a significant increase if the Russian Navy's potential, more importantly the "update program" of the smaller FAC and "missile boat" fleet will be mostly over at that point (75%+) and the shipyards will be able to concentrate their efforts on bigger ships.

    We will see a significant amount of ships being commissioned in these year alone and in the next.
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy Sun Nov 12, 2017 7:39 pm

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:
    AlfaT8 wrote:Ok, first off, is the Pantsir that's going on this ship not gonna be armed with the new 40km range missiles??

    As for Frigates, as far as i am aware of construction of the Grigorovichs have restarted.
    And recently by some Christmas miracle, a second Gorshkov has entered sea-trails.

    Yes eight years certainly is a miracle for a 5k frigate.


    and 10 for 8k type 45 destroyer is OK ? Tell me please how you would approach this problem.
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    Post  KiloGolf Sun Nov 12, 2017 8:33 pm

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:and 10 for 8k type 45 destroyer is OK ? Tell me please how you would approach this problem.

    Type 45 is an example to avoid, globally.
    Álvaro de Bazán or Fridtjof Nansen are good examples for Russia to follow. Check the induction rate/time and you will be surprised. Realistic designs, a tad bit expensive, sure, but nothing Russia can't handle.
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov Sun Nov 12, 2017 9:03 pm

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    SeigSoloyvov wrote:
    AlfaT8 wrote:Ok, first off, is the Pantsir that's going on this ship not gonna be armed with the new 40km range missiles??

    As for Frigates, as far as i am aware of construction of the Grigorovichs have restarted.
    And recently by some Christmas miracle, a second Gorshkov has entered sea-trails.

    Yes eight years certainly is a miracle for a 5k frigate.


    and 10 for 8k type 45 destroyer is OK ? Tell me please how you would approach this problem.

    Depends on the DD type 45 is meh, I do not defend it. However that doesn't justify this frigate mess either.

    Ask Spain like kilo said floated out their frigates which are equally armed and in size in two years.

    How would I fix it? Cannot really answer this, you'd have to start the kremlin tho.

    Frankly, these shipyards are getting away with it because the government is allowing it.

    Corrupt guys etc, list goes on and on.
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    Post  PapaDragon Sun Nov 12, 2017 9:12 pm

    Technical issues that lead to delays I can understand

    However refusal to lay down new ships is absolutely idiotic, by the time​ they get even close to welding hull together those problematic components will be sorted out

    Someone is either fucking up or having another round of megalomaniac fantasies about some destroyer centic fleet again just when they have chance to finally sort out entire surface fleet by using frigates

    Actually it's just fuckup either way
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy Sun Nov 12, 2017 9:54 pm

    KiloGolf wrote:
    GunshipDemocracy wrote:and 10 for 8k type 45 destroyer is OK ? Tell me please how you would approach this problem.

    Type 45 is an example to avoid, globally.
    Álvaro de Bazán or Fridtjof Nansen are good examples for Russia to follow. Check the induction rate/time and you will be surprised. Realistic designs, a tad bit expensive, sure, but nothing Russia can't handle.

    +
    SeigSoloyvov wrote:

    Ask Spain like kilo said floated out their frigates which are equally armed and in size in two years.

    How would I fix it? Cannot really answer this, you'd have to start the kremlin tho.

    Frankly, these shipyards are getting away with it because the government is allowing it.

    Corrupt guys etc, list goes on and on.


    There is corruption as everywhere. But Spaniards what did they do? Well if success is to build a hull and put ready components and et voila then yes.
    develop GEturbines? Italian guns? ESSM missiles? radars? AEGIS integrated by Honeywell?

    Russians started many years ago where were less money and shipyards started to move after decades of under-funding. Could it be better? alwasy. If this a shit? absolutely no.


    Last edited by GunshipDemocracy on Sun Nov 12, 2017 10:01 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Post  KiloGolf Sun Nov 12, 2017 9:59 pm

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:Well if success is to build a hull and put ready components and et voila then yes. But you want Russia to buy ESSM or Sting Ray torpedoes? or Otto Melara guns? or GE turbines? otherwise you have to develop own first right?

    Russia already has all of that, built locally. There's no novelty here.
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    Post  hoom Mon Nov 13, 2017 3:13 am

    Oh come on, can we just talk 22800 here?

    Gorshkov was an attempt to make a fully new system from scratch, got caught in concurrency hell so they started to build the Grigoroviches which like the Spanish frigates used (mostly) existing systems with a slightly modified existing design expecting a quick build.
    Some things went a bit haywire (a bit of concurrency with the upgraded bits vs Indian 11356 and the bit where external suppliers stopped providing stuff especially engines) but the intent was clearly correct.

    Meanwhile they're building missile boats.
    Though it may appear to be in lieu of Frigates -> pathetic, the existing fleet contains a bunch of ageing missile boats in need of replacement & its perfectly sensible to be building replacements (which they can because these have been designed with full domestic systems).
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    Post  GarryB Mon Nov 13, 2017 9:14 am

    All the new vessels they are building are multirole... they have never had a multirole vessel that was smaller than a cruiser before.

    Test it for this and test it for that and then test it for this and that... it takes extra time.

    Perhaps if the British had fully tested their ships they would still have the Sheffield.

    Imagine losing your CIWS when you use satellite transmissions to London from the South Atlantic...

    The point is that the new systems are modular... once they get them working right they can start mass producing them for the entire fleet... and even scaling up the designs to make destroyers and cruisers.
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy Tue Nov 14, 2017 2:44 am

    GarryB wrote:All the new vessels they are building are multirole... they have never had a multirole vessel that was smaller than a cruiser before.

    Test it for this and test it for that and then test it for this and that... it takes extra time.

    Perhaps if the British had fully tested their ships they would still have the Sheffield.

    Imagine losing your CIWS when you use satellite transmissions to London from the South Atlantic...

    The point is that the new systems are modular... once they get them working right they can start mass producing them for the entire fleet... and even scaling up the designs to make destroyers and cruisers.

    I still dream about more anti sub stuff on 22800 though Smile
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    Post  hoom Sun Nov 19, 2017 9:12 am

    A new pic from Balancer
    Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship - Page 11 18-5618713-22800-uragan-ssz-pella-18.11.2017
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    Post  Isos Sun Nov 19, 2017 9:48 am

    It would be nice if they design a sub class for ASW armed with torpedo and 4 tubes UKSK with torpedo kalibrs and RBU lunchers instead of the gun and pantsirs.

    Another version that would be good would be an anti air version with just Shtill lunchers and Tor (with new VLS able to fit lot of missiles not like previous one on Udaloys) and jammers and without antiship missiles. Just to protect the country from cruise missiles and air attack. One can protect 80km of litoral with shtill so 800 km can be protected by 10 of them, 20 can protect 1600km. That would be a really hard defence line to go through especialy that Tor can destroy all the munitions you lunch at them and that you can put S-300 on the coast to have a long range system coupled with them.

    With such boats in great quantities, the operation in Lybia would never have succeeded.
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    Post  KiloGolf Sun Nov 19, 2017 12:57 pm

    Isos wrote:With such boats in great quantities, the operation in Lybia would never have succeeded.

    8 years ago RuN's surface fleet was 100% Soviet era pieces. Also, designing ships to fight "the last war" is hardly wise.
    RuN needs Frigates and destroyers in sufficient quantities, as well as corvettes. But not only corvettes.

    NATO's SSK fleet in the Med can have a field day with such easy targets, they can erase them as it is, within a week or so.
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy Sun Nov 19, 2017 1:57 pm

    Isos wrote:It would be nice if they design a sub class for ASW armed with torpedo and 4 tubes UKSK with torpedo kalibrs and RBU lunchers instead of the gun and pantsirs.
    Another version that would be good would be an anti air version with just Shtill lunchers and Tor (with new VLS able to fit lot of missiles not like previous one on Udaloys) and jammers and without antiship missiles.


    Shtil-1 on such small boat? ekhm are you sure? thsi is not only place but also weight and place for radars.



    Isos wrote:

    With such boats in great quantities, the operation in Lybia would never have succeeded.

    Libya happened because UN SC gave permission "creatively extended" by aggressors.  And for saturation attacks there is no defense invented yet Smile




    KiloGolf wrote:
    Isos wrote:With such boats in great quantities, the operation in Lybia would never have succeeded.

    8 years ago RuN's surface fleet was 100% Soviet era pieces. Also, designing ships to fight "the last war" is hardly wise.
    RuN needs Frigates and destroyers in sufficient quantities, as well as corvettes. But not only corvettes.

    NATO's SSK fleet in the Med can have a field day with such easy targets, they can erase them as it is, within a week or so.


    Not with fleet. Those boats are for A2/AD operations against fleet (5 of them is still a salvo of 40 supersonic and soon hypersonic ASW missiles). But they cannot work alone of course. They need external AA defences as well sub ones.
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    Post  Isos Sun Nov 19, 2017 2:46 pm

    8 years ago RuN's surface fleet was 100% Soviet era pieces. Also, designing ships to fight "the last war" is hardly wise.
    RuN needs Frigates and destroyers in sufficient quantities, as well as corvettes. But not only corvettes.

    NATO's SSK fleet in the Med can have a field day with such easy targets, they can erase them as it is, within a week or so.

    Yeah but they won't have frigates and destroyers in big numbers. Even if they have they will send them fight other ships.

    What I mean is to have corvettes with  just surface to air capacities and antiship missiles. Send the 10 km from your shores and make a line of defences by espacing each corvette by the range of their missiles like 80 km from each other (if shtil has 40km range).

    Shtil-1 on such small boat? ekhm are you sure? thsi is not only place but also weight and place for radars.

    Why not. A non armoured luncher with 12 missiles for shtill at the back and some Tors at the front. Israeli proved that you can put anything you want on small ships. I agree if they keep the same lunchers as we have seen on udaloys and Grigorovitch it won't work, but they could design a non armoured version that is not as heavy.




    Libya happened because UN SC gave permission "creatively extended" by aggressors.  And for saturation attacks there is no defense invented yet Smile

    Yeah but if you have this line of defences you can destroy lot of tomahawks and even send an ASW corvettes try to destroy the sub while on the sea those tomahawks can't use the terrain to hide from potentiel surface to air missiles and escape them because it's the sea so they will be detected for sure before they reach the "ground" or the country.

    We saw that S-400 couldn't do anything in Syria because of the mountains and the road taken by the tomahawks. That's why I think it is a nice idea to put mid range and short range missiles on a same plateform and saturate the coast with them to detect everything trying to go through. Add some frigate with Redut and some land base S-400 and nothing will go through while you can Attack the enmy ships and subs easily from the air and the ground.

    I mean they created Tor for destroying guided munition and in the navy they barely don't use them. Same with shtill. They are really cheap systems with great capabilities but don't use them efficiently. They mounted tor on a destroyer like Udaloy and shtill on Sovs while they could have build a single destroyer with both of them.

    They just don't adopt the formidable IADS they have for they land forces to the navy forces. It would have been such a better navy if they did that. Even the S-300FM isn't use propelly. Look how china managed to put it into frigates and small destroy while russians are just putting it into the biggest ship they have ...

    Maybe the plateform is to small. I agree. They could use something biger and much more simplier. But they are planing to use lot of karakirt so it would be cheaper to use the same plateform for this.

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