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    [Official] Armata Discussion thread #5

    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Thu May 14, 2020 8:18 am

    It is an interesting idea... the Russians have a history of not putting all their eggs into one basket so if several new technologies show promise the result is a better product.

    They developed APS and ERA and NERA, but they also developed composite armour and now they are modifying the basic design of the vehicles to maximise the protection for the vehicle crews... with everyone in the hull it would be simpler to implement electric armour... of course an add on external module like a NERA block on the outside to blunt any penetrator and then a single piece surface located block with insulating armour in the middle and a front electrode and a rear electrode that is attached to the standard vehicle armour would be the ideal solution... from the outside an incoming penetrator would have to run the gauntlet... smoke and chaff/flare launchers put a visual barrier in front of the tank as the round approaches... APS systems fire and intercept incoming missiles and projectiles, NERA blunts any penetrators that get through greatly reducing their penetration potential when they reach the armour of the vehicle. Then it hits the add on armour, which fires up the charge... as the penetrator penetrates the inner stuffing it touches the inner electrode and an enormous charge goes through the penetrator obliterating it... or at least that section of it... greatly reducing its mass and energy and blunting it again... and then it reaches the normal armour of the vehicle...

    Most of the time the grenade launchers will result in a miss anyway... those that get through the APS system will take down many of them, and that still leaves three layers of protection...

    Of course it does remind me of the British comments about when a Challenger tank accidentally shot a Warrior... the round was stopped by an external armour panel added to improve the protection of the Warrior and everyone talked about the Warrior being as well armoured as a tank. Of course it wasn't until later that they mentioned that the round the Challenger used was a HESH, or High Explosive Squash Head round, and this example just served to shot such rounds are totally useless against any platform with spaced armour or external armour modules. It wasn't that the armour wasn't great, it was a case that the tank round was rubbish. Most tanks fitted with extra armour panels would not be effected by HESH... which is essentially a big soft ball of HE with a tail fuse so it hits a sheet of armour and squashes flat and then explodes sending massive shockwaves through the armour. It doesn't penetrate any armour, what it does is make layers of the inner armour plate to peel off and bounce around inside the tank like shrapnel. Any space or gap or layered armour is totally resistant to such rounds and anti spall liners make it even less effective... but there is a big boom and it looks impressive.

    Would be good against light vehicles most of the time, but again against spaced armour is useless.

    If you were in an old British tank in WWII and you came up against a Tiger I and you had an old short barrel 76mm gun then your best and only chance would be a HESH because a short barrel gun wont penetrate the armour, but a HESH might take out the crew anyway.

    Small calibre HESH don't work well so there is no chance of a 37mm or 45mm or 57mm HESH round being effective.
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    Post  AlfaT8 on Fri May 22, 2020 4:13 pm

    miketheterrible
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    Post  miketheterrible on Fri May 22, 2020 5:32 pm

    What?

    T-14 was always destined to use the 125mm 2A82 cannon.
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    Post  Hole on Fri May 22, 2020 9:10 pm

    Which is the best tank cannon out there.
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Sat May 23, 2020 5:10 am

    The 152mm tank gun is better than the 125mm tank gun... it is also more expensive... physically bigger and twice as heavy and the ammo is significantly larger and heavier and also more expensive.

    While the 125mm gun is still able to get the job done there is little to no reason to change guns... only internet fanbois are upset about this.

    The vehicle families have custom designed turrets... it is highly likely that like they have a new BMP turret with a 57mm high capacity gun and another turret with a 57mm grenade launcher... in addition with turrets with 30mm cannon fitted to, that they probably also already have a turret for a 152mm tank gun ready to go when needed... not a big deal.

    Sounds like this guy has a fixation for war thunder.... upgrading guns is done whether it makes sense or not in that game because that is just what you do...

    Germany having a 130mm gun is meaningless... they probably need it to ensure they think they can penetrate Armata tanks at battlefield ranges, but the only reason you would mount a 152mm gun on Armata and other vehicles like Kurganets and Boomerang is because some HATO tank has been shown with armour too heavy for the 125 to reliably penetrate at battlefield ranges.

    Only 12 year olds think the gun with the biggest calibre wins.

    Besides the American Sheridan tank has a 152mm gun too and it is a dog.
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    Post  Big_Gazza on Sat May 23, 2020 5:10 am

    miketheterrible wrote:What?

    T-14 was always destined to use the 125mm 2A82 cannon.  

    Ignore these idiots. Jew-tube fan-boi rubbish sponsored by War Thunder. Its all intended to get dumb kids onto the game and to spending money on buffs like gold ammo.
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    Post  Big_Gazza on Sat May 23, 2020 5:14 am

    GarryB wrote:Besides the American Sheridan tank has a 152mm gun too and it is a dog.

    Not sure you can call it a gun. it's more like a ISIS-brand mortar that can shoot crappy early-generation ATGMs. Laughing
    The-thing-next-door
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    Post  The-thing-next-door on Sat May 23, 2020 11:54 am

    GarryB wrote:Sounds like this guy has a fixation for war thunder.... upgrading guns is done whether it makes sense or not in that game because that is just what you do...

    You cannot upgrade your tanks gun in warthunder and to some extent that game favours smaller higher velocity guns over bigger ones, in that game I have both the KV-2 and SU-152 and they are not worth playing over the KV-1 and KV-85.

    Big_Gazza wrote:Ignore these idiots. Jew-tube fan-boi rubbish sponsored by War Thunder. Its all intended to get dumb kids onto the game and to spending money on buffs like gold ammo.

    There is no premium ammunition in warthunder you are thinking of world of tanks and even then it is not so mutch premium ammunition as really expensive ammunition (you can buy it with credits you earn in battle) that you can spend real money on if you are so inclined.

    Anyway the problem with warthunder is that most of the combat is at very close range and in city streets so it usually just boils down to who shoots who first with little consideration for tactics, though I do sometimes still manage to use my IS-4 at mid range.
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    Post  Isos on Sat May 23, 2020 11:24 pm

    War thunder is just a game but I like how good/realistic they made the penetration values and armor protection values. That must still be wrong values but it is realistic and you can see that even a t-55 can destroy easily a modern MBT from sides contrary to the stories of "tens of hits and no penetration" found on some forums...
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    Post  GarryB on Sun May 24, 2020 8:25 am

    The whole point is that you have to make a design choice and these choices come with consequences... with the T-14 they are in the rather ideal position of having an effective gun that is pretty much standard across their existing types using the same ammo so no unnecessary burden in terms of supply and purchase and loading. They also have a fully developed replacement gun already to go if needed.

    If there is an analogy I would say 1941 eastern front with the T-34 tank. They have a 76.2mm gun and a 57mm gun as options and they chose the former because it has a better HE round that is more useful. In this case they would also already have an 85mm gun ready to go too but the 85mm gun is bigger and heavier so you carry fewer rounds, it is more expensive... and vastly over powered... Panzer 2, 3s and 4s of the time really don't require such a big powerful gun... a 76.2mm gun with a longer barrel is a much better solution and that is what they are going with.

    Ironically if this was the situation they should put the new 85mm gun on the KV-1 so that it becomes more of a Tiger equivalent a few years before the Tiger got on the battlefield... but the 85mm gun was not ready then sadly.

    Then when the T-34 went to the 85mm gun the KV could turn into the JS with the 122mm gun... but again... not needed or possible.

    In terms of the 152mm gun they might never need it... or when all the vehicle families are fully in service they might change the Armatas to 152mm and leave the Kurganets and Boomerangs at 125mm guns.

    New generation EM guns might make much smaller calibres normal... so a 100mm rifled gun like the BMP-3s gun and a 45mm super high velocity EM gun to penetrate enemy armour... with them mounted coaxially like on the BMP-3...
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    Post  The-thing-next-door on Sun May 24, 2020 10:37 am

    GarryB wrote:

    New generation EM guns might make much smaller calibres normal... so a 100mm rifled gun like the BMP-3s gun and a 45mm super high velocity EM gun to penetrate enemy armour... with them mounted coaxially like on the BMP-3...

    Funny how when I suggested the exact same layout for a railgun armed tank you dismissed it yet now you suggest it.
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    Post  GarryB on Sun May 24, 2020 1:59 pm

    They are not mature and wont be mature for quite some time yet.

    Railguns that have the highest velocities have tiny projectiles that would be essentially useless... accelerate a half gramme mass to 20km/s and it makes a fist sized hole in an armour plate 10mm thick, but make the armour more than a few cms thick and it rapidly loses its ability to penetrate.

    You quickly work out that the sweet spot is about 3km/s any faster than that and you get better results by increasing the mass of the projectile than by increasing the speed, but even then getting any penetrator of any decent weight to such velocities in something you can fit on a vehicle is a long way from reality.

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    Post  The-thing-next-door on Sun May 24, 2020 3:12 pm

    GarryB wrote:They are not mature and wont be mature for quite some time yet.

    Railguns that have the highest velocities have tiny projectiles that would be essentially useless... accelerate a half gramme mass to 20km/s and it makes a fist sized hole in an armour plate 10mm thick, but make the armour more than a few cms thick and it rapidly loses its ability to penetrate.

    You quickly work out that the sweet spot is about 3km/s any faster than that and you get better results by increasing the mass of the projectile than by increasing the speed, but even then getting any penetrator of any decent weight to such velocities in something you can fit on a vehicle is a long way from reality.


    Agreed however this has nothing to do with the point which was that railguns are not practical for lobbing large payloads of HE around the battlefield when the enemy is not using heavy armour hence the idea of a secondary low pressure large calibre cannon to fulfill that role (as mentioned in your prior post) however I find your choice of caliber odd while you could probably get more performance out of a 100mm low pressure shell optimised for explosive payload with a 122 or 130mm low pressure gun you could probably have the power of 152mm artillery that takes up only as much space as the current 2a46m5 125mm gun.

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