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    MiG-29/ΜiG-35 Fulcrum: News #2

    franco
    franco


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    Post  franco 18/10/22, 03:26 pm

    Ukrainian intelligence "lost" Russian MiG-29 fighters located at two military airfields


    The Ukrainian military department has discovered the "disappearance" of Russian multi-role MiG-29 fighter jets taken from two Russian airfields in an unknown direction. The planes reportedly disappeared from the airfield in Millerovo in the Rostov region and from the airfield in Kursk.

    According to Ukrainian intelligence, MiG-29 fighter jets that had been there for a long time disappeared in Millerovo, and MiG-29SMT left in Kursk in an unknown direction. According to Ukrainian sources, it is suggested that the planes were sent for modernization and restoration of technical readiness in order to involve them in a special military operation in Ukraine. It is stated that the Russian Aerospace Forces allegedly lost a large number of combat aircraftfrom the Ukrainian air defense and now intend to replace them with an older model so as not to "ruin" the new equipment.

    It is noted that all the fighters located at these airfields have not been operated for a long time.

    The Russian Ministry of Defense does not comment on the "disappearance" of fighters from airfields, it is possible that they were indeed sent for modernization, although recently there have been no reports of any contracts for the restoration of old aircraft. In principle, the Russian Aerospace Forces are slowly getting rid of already obsolete fighters, replacing them with newer models. But the option of selling restored aircraft somewhere in Africa or somewhere else is not excluded. So let Kyiv continue to look for Russian fighters that suddenly “disappeared” from two airfields.

    https://topwar-ru.translate.goog/203488-ukrainskaja-razvedka-poterjala-nahodivshiesja-na-dvuh-voennyh-ajerodromah-rossijskie-istrebiteli-mig-29.html?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en

    NOTE: I haven't a clue nor enough data to form an opinion however it is an interesting note.
    Arkanghelsk
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    Post  Arkanghelsk 17/11/22, 08:37 pm

    Mig35 is flying at Zhuhai airshow

    Export sales  ?

    This should be procured for the VKS, it is a good aircraft, lighter, cheaper, and lower RCS then platforms in Ukraine

    Even if the radar is PESA, with Izd 180 missile, and countermeasures like MAWS and DIRCM

    This plane would be a boost to VKS numbers

    It's time to shed the mig29, and the su24, and introduce a new platform which can help in the SMO and future conflicts

    Existing major users:

    Egypt
    India

    Potential users:

    Peru
    Malaysia
    Myanmar
    Argentina

    Waiting to pitch su75 is a bad idea from a business perspective, which is what export is all about

    Su75 won't be introduced until 2030+ despite what fanboys say

    Mig35 should be invested into, and develop a close to 5th generation aircraft NOW, which can be procured and brought into VKS

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    caveat emptor
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    Post  caveat emptor 17/11/22, 09:16 pm

    They are dragging their feet with AFAR radar. This plane have limited chance for export with PESA radars in this day and age, when other competitors offer AESA radars.
    As for VKS, they are showing reluctance with this plane for whatever reason they have. Order for 6 or 8 planes was made to show they have it in their arsenal and nudge potential export customers. Are plains from that order even included in VKS force?
    Arkanghelsk
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    Post  Arkanghelsk 17/11/22, 10:34 pm

    caveat emptor wrote:They are dragging their feet with AFAR radar. This plane have limited chance for export with PESA radars in this day and age, when other competitors offer AESA radars.
    As for VKS, they are showing reluctance with this plane for whatever reason they have. Order for 6 or 8 planes was made to  show they have it in their arsenal and nudge potential export customers. Are plains from that order even included in VKS force?

    24 will go to VKS

    And Egypt bought 49 mig29m2 with PESA radars

    Granted CAATSA has created an aversion, even to finalize su35 transfer , but other countries could make such a purchase

    Also they don't have to export the plane to produce for domestic needs

    I think with oil sales to India, they can wean off military export dependence and just procure what they want/need without having to piggy back off export orders
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB 18/11/22, 08:47 am

    They are installing AESA radars on their new medium range AAMs... presumably it is already likely fitted to R-37Ms or if it isn't it probably will be and the new article 815s will likely also have them too.

    Producing them in those volumes... not to mention for radar arrays for their new SAM batteries and for Naval ships which all seem to have AESA arrays added... even their tanks are getting AESA radars as are their attack helicopters... I suspect new AESA radars wont be far away or they are not value for money at the moment... but that would change with production volumes and as mentioned more and more platforms are using them so the price should be going down and the quality and performance goes up.
    caveat emptor
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    Post  caveat emptor 18/11/22, 08:59 am

    Arkanghelsk wrote:
    24 will go to VKS
    How do you figure that? As far as I know, original order for 6 planes was never followed up with another order.

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    sepheronx
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    Post  sepheronx 18/11/22, 09:27 am

    The talk about AESA debate was long over. GaN modules were used for the radar onboard the corvettes and Gorshkov frigates as was pointed out by TR1 back before being banned.

    AESA modules are used for L band radar on the Su-35.

    AESA modules used for Kh band and L band for various radar systems starting with NEBO.

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    caveat emptor
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    Post  caveat emptor 18/11/22, 05:57 pm

    Nobody said that Russians don't use AESA. I don't know why are you even implying that.  We are talking exclusively about MiG-35 and it's onboard radar. Indian press was writing, at the time, that main reason plane was disqualified from previous tender was exactly that AESA radar for the plane was not ready. Also, it seems that 6 or 8 planes that Russian army already ordered came with old PESA radar.
    Considering that this model was made primarily for export market,  absence of the AESA is seen as major shortcoming when compared with competitors.
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB 19/11/22, 05:27 am

    If they are developing new radar technologies it does not make sense to invest a lot of money on a new AESA radar array if an alternative system is almost ready... AESAs are not cheap and the MiG-35 is the more affordable alternative to the Su-35... if they put AESA radars in it and it drives the cost beyond that of the Su-35 then they wont sell MiGs to the Russian AF which is their primary customer.

    Over time mass production of AESA elements will drive down costs to make them affordable and they seem to be producing those elements in significant numbers right now.

    They already tested an early AESA radar in the MiG-35 and then they tested an improved model with rather more elements... getting the aircraft into serial production and service is more important than what radar it is currently fitted with because radars can be changed during an overhaul...

    Of course the other factor would be is there enough engine takeoff electrical power to run all the systems and an AESA radar... you wouldn't want to have to switch between jammers and radar because you can't use both...

    Of course the radar in the MiG-25 and the MiG-31 radars use a lot of power too so it is not like they don't have any experience in those areas.

    The Indians just wanted an excuse to buy the French plane because the purpose from the start was to maintain diversity and upgrade the Mirage 2000s... they were told they couldn't buy M2K production and had to buy Rafales so they created a competition that the M2K would win... if the Rafale were to win they would have to slash the price dramatically because it was a 10.4 billion programme for 126 planes and as we know it was 8 billion for 36 Rafales.

    But of course being French they paid it and didn't complain like the did when the 1.4 billion dollar Russian carrier became a 2.4 billion dollar carrier... 700million of the original price was the air component of MiG-29KRs and Ka-31s and Ka-32s...

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    sepheronx
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    Post  sepheronx 19/11/22, 08:08 am

    GarryB wrote:If they are developing new radar technologies it does not make sense to invest a lot of money on a new AESA radar array if an alternative system is almost ready... AESAs are not cheap and the MiG-35 is the more affordable alternative to the Su-35... if they put AESA radars in it and it drives the cost beyond that of the Su-35 then they wont sell MiGs to the Russian AF which is their primary customer.

    Over time mass production of AESA elements will drive down costs to make them affordable and they seem to be producing those elements in significant numbers right now.

    They already tested an early AESA radar in the MiG-35 and then they tested an improved model with rather more elements... getting the aircraft into serial production and service is more important than what radar it is currently fitted with because radars can be changed during an overhaul...

    Of course the other factor would be is there enough engine takeoff electrical power to run all the systems and an AESA radar... you wouldn't want to have to switch between jammers and radar because you can't use both...

    Of course the radar in the MiG-25 and the MiG-31 radars use a lot of power too so it is not like they don't have any experience in those areas.

    The Indians just wanted an excuse to buy the French plane because the purpose from the start was to maintain diversity and upgrade the Mirage 2000s... they were told they couldn't buy M2K production and had to buy Rafales so they created a competition that the M2K would win... if the Rafale were to win they would have to slash the price dramatically because it was a 10.4 billion programme for 126 planes and as we know it was 8 billion for 36 Rafales.

    But of course being French they paid it and didn't complain like the did when the 1.4 billion dollar Russian carrier became a 2.4 billion dollar carrier... 700million of the original price was the air component of MiG-29KRs and Ka-31s and Ka-32s...

    Yes, indeed they (Russia) is gonna push Photon radar systems as they expect it to be far more rewarding than what AESA offers now even with GaN.

    MiG-29's with AESA was never really much of an option anyone was interested in. Ultimately, people were interested in the Sukhoi series with or without AESA simply because the power output on the Sukhois are far more impressive than what is on MiG-29's thus the radars used on the Sukhois can provide far output in that regard. With them also being bigger overall with a bigger payload, most saw it as a far better option for multipurpose jets for a be all end all for their rather small airforces. While it isn't ideal in grand scheme of things, it is an affordable method of doing it. Only jet out of them that could give massive improvements with GaAS and GaN modules is the Zaslon radars used on the MiG-31 as the power output on those is massive too.

    Question was always - is it worth it and necessary? Some people think so as they will say a jet is only good if it has AESA without actually understanding the technology nor understanding physics of power input vs power output. But that is something else entirely. Cost vs benefits of course.

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    lancelot
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    Post  lancelot 19/11/22, 09:27 am

    The advantages of the GaA AESA radar, especially the first generation ones, over a modern PESA design is debatable. But using GaN on the AESA changes that equation since it is a lot more power efficient.

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    sepheronx
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    Post  sepheronx 19/11/22, 10:39 am

    lancelot wrote:The advantages of the GaA AESA radar, especially the first generation ones, over a modern PESA design is debatable. But using GaN on the AESA changes that equation since it is a lot more power efficient.

    Power efficient yes, but output is overall still reliant on the overall power applied to it.

    So it benefits for everyone making AESA modules to move to GaN as it means less modules needed to provide similar performance needed and thus also means a lot cooler too.

    But it seems importance is in Photonic modules. We shall see how it works out. Russian GaN modules as far back at about 2014 or so was 35W per GaN module. I am unsure what they are at now.
    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion 20/11/22, 11:18 pm

    The MiG-35 isn't popular with any1: https://topcor.ru/29362-mw-pochemu-rossijskie-mig-35-ne-zadejstvovany-na-ukraine.html
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB 21/11/22, 08:30 am

    MW estimates that the MiG-35 requires 80% less maintenance than its predecessor, the MiG-29, but is still less cost-effective than the Su-34, Su-35, and even Su-57, as it has a shorter range, payload, and radar that limit its usefulness in potential warfare. with NATO.

    MW is Military Watch... an American magazine company...

    But if lighter fighters are so useless why does the Checkmate concept even exist?

    The fact is that Russia can't afford an all Flanker sized fighter aircraft fleet and in most conflicts don't need to fly 2,000km round trips for most missions.

    The MiG-35 is 80% cheaper to operate than the MiG-29 which in turn was probably 50% cheaper to operate than the Flanker family aircraft, which is why moving forward it makes sense to fill out your inventory with affordable aircraft.

    The concept of a high and a low fighter is sound and still makes sense.

    The old Su-30 was actually intended as a PVO fighter that would operate with smaller fighters... at the time MiG-29s with their radar turned off... the Su-30 would use its radar and avionics to find targets and the radar and radio silent MiGs operating closer to the target at higher altitude could accelerate to high speed and launch missiles at targets found by the Flanker and then turn back... a retreating target is much harder to hit for the enemy but the launch of the MiGs missiles at speed and altitude maximised their range and launching them from closer to the target means they will reach the target area before any missiles the Su-30 might launch.

    The Su-30 essentially acts as a mini AWACS platform using its superior radar range against enemy air targets... the MiG-29s could set their radar to passive detection mode and get radar reflections from the enemy targets from the Su-30 emissions to get their own information but the Su-30 could transmit target data to the MIGs without giving away their presence or location. The enemy would only know about the Su-30 because it will be using its radar.

    Operational costs means a formation of MiG-35s and a single Su-30 would be much cheaper to operate than a similar formation with Su-35s.

    The extra numbers of aircraft would mean better airspace coverage because both aircraft have similar flight speed.
    LMFS
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    Post  LMFS 09/12/22, 11:19 pm

    MiG-29/ΜiG-35 Fulcrum: News #2 - Page 24 309802
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