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    MiG-29/ΜiG-35 Fulcrum: News #2

    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Wed Aug 26, 2020 12:29 pm

    C'mon Garry this is below your standards. It has literally nothing to do with what I said.

    How often could they have possibly used their new radars... a few hours maybe but they are soooo much better...

    It is making a brand new plane with all new components obsolete, but you accuse me of over reacting?

    This is the low in the high/low mix of Russian fighter aircraft is obsolete because it doesn't have an AESA radar yet and is not obviously superior to Rafale in every aspect.

    I didn't get the memo telling me every HATO country and every other country sharing a border with Russia is getting Rafales...


    You claim I complain from ignorance but you already know how the ROFAR antennas will be constructed... ahem

    Of course... the new photonic radars are going to be hand held and made from clothes hangar wire like all good car aerials are...


    I just go by what MiG say. Wait, do you suggest the MiG-35 naming is just a cheap PR ploy?

    The naming identifies the contents.

    MiG-29M is the single seat version of the M2...

    Maybe they don't sell so many because the people selling them don't know what they are doing... the single seat version of the MiG-29M2 has the same two seat canopy... the photo shown is the single seat canopy which was used on the MiG-29M from the 1980s but is not used for the single seat MiG-29M2.

    What is the difference with MiG-29M? Honest question

    Ready to go now as is.

    I realise that when the Typhoon and the Rafale and the Gripen and the F-35 all entered service they had all their final ready to go equipment.... newest radars, latest equipment and weapons... but if you stop being a little fanboy and wait till things are ready, perhaps you might be pleasantly surprised.


    That has no answer to my question sorry

    In the Russian military there are some MiG-29KR and a couple of early test MiG-35s, but all the rest are old model MiG-29s of a different design.

    Russian analysis that I have read suggest that would be the case in WVR true. Of course some other technologies like DIRCM have to be considered as well as other kinds of encounter and funtionality, and no I don't agree that MiG-29 or any other fighter can jam enemy AAMs with 100% effectiveness.

    Ideal situation with unaware target with no self defence equipment at all and AMRAAM has a hit rate of only 40% if lucky... AAMs are nothing like the hittiles they are made out to be in movies.

    That is hardly a merit of the MiG-29 or even apply for most of the export customers.

    So the goal of MiG is to design a super fighter superior to the Su-35 and Su-57 and to then get the Russian government to cancel those programmes and just buy MiGs... and that will make export customers happy will it?

    The MiG is made to a role and a purpose... demanding it be better than a Rafale or else it is obsolete is stupid... even India can't afford Rafales... what country with less than a billion people could afford it?

    Normal take-off weight of the M is 19 tons, remove 5 tons fuel (50% more than old MiG-29) and you have 14 tons empty. We can certainly make no accurate calculations but we can reasonably estimate empty weight of the plane. It seems to be heavy as a F-35 or more and heavier than a F-15C too. Reinforced structure common with the K and extended service life go in that direction too. Service ceiling of 16 km for the 35 instead of 18 km for the older versions are also not giving reason for optimism.

    Wow it must be crap if it is 14 tons empty and has a max return weight of 16.5 tons for landing back on a carrier... but then it has a normal take off weight that does not include any ordinance so it is obviously one of those very special planes right?


    That is a really weak excuse isn't it? Rafale can be refuelled too.

    You are right... putting inflight refuelling equipment on planes is just stupid... when they run out of fuel they should just crash... and then after quite a few have been lost we can bitch and moan about it not having enough flight range even though we never bother using the inflight refuelling probe or any external fuel tanks cause they are just a weak excuse to cover the fact that it is not a big long range plane like a Flanker and was never intended for long range operations... I mean if it was they would have external fuel tanks and an inflight refuelling probe... clown

    It is the good old Zhuk-M

    So it is total shit and can't be used in combat against anything any more...

    Where is the claim about obsolescence? I just said the performance of the EO suite is unknown.

    You are saying this aircraft is obsolescent... despite not knowing so many things about it... you don't even know its dry weight... but it is rubbish.

    Unsurprisingly, the platforms developed later have better performance.

    The aerodynamics of the western aircraft are ordinary and not better than the MiG-29 let alone the MiG-35.

    But those western planes will be fine for shooting down Syrian Su-22s and Libyan planes...

    Rafale and Eurofighter have the same size and therefore are the reference platforms against which the MiG needs to be measured. Also F-18 is a reference too.

    The Rafale is costing India more than the F-35 is costing any customer... the F-18 is known in the US as the expensive plane but amongst that company it is the cheap one... how about cost effectiveness as a measure because performance figures mean nothing if no one can afford to buy any.

    In comparison the MiG-35 is cheap...

    LMFS
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    Post  LMFS on Wed Aug 26, 2020 6:38 pm

    GarryB wrote:In comparison the MiG-35 is cheap...

    Ok, honestly that is what I can save from above. I am not making unrealistic demands from the new plane, only expecting a sound program management and communication, like the Su-35 had. It has improved as of late but has spent simply too much time in the woods to be considered a model in that regard. As to the platform, it is still capable but increasingly surpassed and that means it losses attractiveness and market value... Sukhoi said as much about the Su-27 and 35. It is not good when you have to sell based on price and coherently MiG has been demanding to develop a new fighter for ages. Sorry I don't see nothing so remarkable or offensive in what I say.

    I know Russia could not develop PAK-FA and a LMFS at the same time and MiG has had to endure a difficult situation. Tarasenko said in his last interview which I linked in the ARMY 2020 thread, that they fulfilled their contract in advance, but I have not seen the 6 serial MiG-35 yet, and they said they expected a new contract. Let us see if the plane finally goes to combat units.
    George1
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    Post  George1 on Wed Aug 26, 2020 7:36 pm

    LMFS wrote:
    I know Russia could not develop PAK-FA and a LMFS at the same time and MiG has had to endure a difficult situation. Tarasenko said in his last interview which I linked in the ARMY 2020 thread, that they fulfilled their contract in advance, but I have not seen the 6 serial MiG-35 yet, and they said they expected a new contract. Let us see if the plane finally goes to combat units.

    https://www.russiadefence.net/t7639p250-mig-29-ig-35-fulcrum-news-2#291707
    LMFS
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    Post  LMFS on Wed Aug 26, 2020 8:00 pm


    Yes, this was the information I was considering. The six airframes have not been delivered yet and they apparently will go to the Swifts. We have not heard anything about what the final units of the MiG-35 could be, or I at least am not aware.
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    Post  LMFS on Wed Aug 26, 2020 9:23 pm

    From yesterday's aerial demonstration:

    MiG-29/ΜiG-35 Fulcrum: News #2 - Page 12 EgVrU0RXYAEzkvV?format=jpg&name=medium
    MiG-29/ΜiG-35 Fulcrum: News #2 - Page 12 EgVrXg8WAAQUfDi?format=jpg&name=medium
    MiG-29/ΜiG-35 Fulcrum: News #2 - Page 12 EgVrZVkXoAUoybA?format=jpg&name=medium
    MiG-29/ΜiG-35 Fulcrum: News #2 - Page 12 EgVrnvYXYAA8E-1?format=jpg&name=medium

    medo likes this post

    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Thu Aug 27, 2020 1:51 pm

    I am not making unrealistic demands from the new plane, only expecting a sound program management and communication, like the Su-35 had.

    But you are.

    You are demanding the MiG-35 be better than the Rafale, which has beaten F-35s and F-22s in tests.

    The MiG-35 is not the next best Russian plane to replace all others in service... it doesn't need super long flight range because it will be replacing MiG-29s... not Su-30s. It will also make up fighter units in the more densely populated western Russia where flight distances will be shorter and its smaller size will save money and reduce operating costs.

    If you want the MiG-35 to be an F-35 then WTF is the new 5th gen MiG fighter expected to do... fight off an alien invasion?

    It has improved as of late but has spent simply too much time in the woods to be considered a model in that regard.

    You do understand that they pay for advertising... they don't get paid when they spend millions making proposals to India or Algeria or the Russian Air Force... they have to sell stuff to get it into service and get the funding to upgrade and improve their stuff...

    A better question would be with all their export sales and all the money coming in then why is the Su-27SM so shit... where the fuck is their AESA?

    They are shiny boy that can do no fucking wrong... why isn't the Su-35 carrying around an AESA main radar?

    As to the platform, it is still capable but increasingly surpassed and that means it losses attractiveness and market value... Sukhoi said as much about the Su-27 and 35.

    Surpassed by what?

    And they are making a 5th gen new fighter too.

    I am sure countries that actually get a choice (which means the list is 3-4 countries long) can either choose to buy 500 MiG-35s or for the same price 12 Rafales or maybe 24 Typhoons or 20 F-35s... but who am I fooling... which country actually gets a choice these days...

    It is not good when you have to sell based on price and coherently MiG has been demanding to develop a new fighter for ages. Sorry I don't see nothing so remarkable or offensive in what I say.

    Yes, those MiG developers are totally responsible for the Russian government decision not to go forward with a second stealth fighter programme until the first one is ready for service... lets all bitch and moan about how slack the MiG team have been... all this time doing so little... The Su-27SM is pathetic, but not a word of criticism... it is a half arsed half baked programme where a few minor things have been changed to keep an ancient fighter flying, they have done the minimum needed to get it past tests... but not a word said about that.
    The Su-30s they introduced are two seat Su-27s with a similar half baked warmed over minimalist upgrade that does nothing to significantly change the aircraft at all, but the problem is MiG not making their 5th gen super fighter without permission and without funding.... bastards... hang them for sabotage of the Russian state... Rolling Eyes

    I know Russia could not develop PAK-FA and a LMFS at the same time and MiG has had to endure a difficult situation. Tarasenko said in his last interview which I linked in the ARMY 2020 thread, that they fulfilled their contract in advance, but I have not seen the 6 serial MiG-35 yet, and they said they expected a new contract. Let us see if the plane finally goes to combat units.

    I am sure if you send him a memo to tell him that it is you that has to be satisfied, then I am sure he will jump to it and have those 6 planes flying around your boundary fence before you can say supersonic boom.

    Setting up production is expensive... even more so when you don't have any idea of potential volumes... if they order another 6 planes then they are making this plane expensive on purpose. If they order 96 planes then they will get a much cheaper plane... especially if they can get an export order for them as well.

    Did you notice that the US could care less about Egypt buying MiG-29M2s... try to work through the advantages of slipping under the radar by not being perceived as that dangerous... or not... because obviously if they are not better than a French fighter that costs 50 times more then of course they are shit.
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    Post  LMFS on Thu Aug 27, 2020 8:52 pm

    @GarryB

    it is difficult to discuss with someone that apparently does not want to understand what I say, so be it.
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    Post  GarryB on Fri Aug 28, 2020 2:29 pm

    I understand what you are saying... single engined fighters are cheaper even though they are not, and superior to twin engined fighters despite having inferior performance and not actually being cheaper than the Russian alternative, and anything without an AESA radar is obsolete no matter what its purpose because some pilot flew in a plane with an AESA radar and said it was better.

    You don't think you are the first to have these thoughts... the whole concept behind the F-35 was commonality and mass production to create something everyone can use which will make it affordable... so affordable in fact that they now sell the plane and the engine separately to make it sound much more affordable...

    But then the F-35 breaks the rules.... the single engined fighter should be half the weight of the heavy fighter and should use one of the heavy fighters two engines for commonality, which the F-35 does not do.

    For the last 30 odd years on the interweb I have been hearing that the Euro canard design is the best design for all sorts of different reasons... engines together means less frontal drag and better roll rate and canards point your nose where you want to go instead of tail surfaces that push your arse where you don't want to go...

    Give it more and more time and fashions change and popular styles disappear and you wonder why they were popular in the first place.

    You say it is difficult to discuss something with someone who does not want to understand... I understand just fine.

    You are complaining that the MiG-35 even exists because right now it does not have an AESA radar.

    I could call it sabotage... if they get hundreds of MiG-35s into service with brand new AESA radars how many new 5th gen fighters are they going to sell and they turn out to be superior to the Rafale... it does not matter because the people allowed to buy Russian planes is a short list and those that can afford brand new fighters is ever shorter.... the MiG was never going to win in India, and it can't win in a lot of other places too... because it is Russian.

    Politics has always been more important than performance... the Germans could have retired their F-4 Phantoms and given their MiG-29s an SMT upgrade till the Typhoon was ready but they were afraid that with an SMT upgrade the MiG might make the Typhoon look not so wonderful and also rather expensive so they retired the MiGs and kept using F-4s.

    A lot of other planes were retired prematurely because they were seen as threats to their replacements too... upgrades of the F-14 could have created a much better aircraft than any model hornet so the Tomcat didn't get radar upgrades or even AMRAAM... and of course the Whorenet fanboys were queueing up to call the Tomcat obsolete too....
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    Post  LMFS on Fri Aug 28, 2020 8:33 pm

    GarryB wrote:I understand what you are saying...

    Nope, you don't seem to understand it... I just say that if you design a 4++ gen aircraft, you better do it before everybody and their dog have a 5G plane in the market... you seem keen on seeing much more criticism in what I say than I intended and try to portray my position as a collection of tired and unhinged cliches. I take no offence, but it does not bring the discussion further  dunno

    But in the end it is what it is, no matter what we think or who is responsible for the program's slow pace and dubious communication strategy, it keeps progressing. They are finishing state tests and still have some options with the Indians and in the export market in general. Hopefully they manage to be competitive and land some nice contracts, politics of course can help a lot as you say.
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    Post  miketheterrible on Fri Aug 28, 2020 9:17 pm

    AESA radar is a semi meme.  It is a good seller to nations like India that just love the name and think it's newer then it's better and they can slap it on everything even if it's a waste

    But the best most powerful fighter based radar right now is a PESA - Irbis E.  Only N036 AESA will be a AESA variant of that as its overall power output is still the same - 20KW.  

    Anyone who touts that it's new = it's better and blah blah blah doesn't know physics or basics of it. Yes, AESA has its pros but nothing it can't be supplimented in add on pods which would do a far better job than the AESA radar itself anyway.  Minus LPI mode which in itself is a joke cause radiation is radiation and it will be picked up by any sensitive receiver.

    It will have its purpose later on when cheaper GaAN and other modules comes out but currently, they aren't worth the cost.

    As for MiG-35, it's too late to the party. It would have made sense years ago. AESA or not.  But now it isn't wanted and that's obvious by even recent orders by Russian MoD.

    MiG better drop it and get their ass moving for the next jet if they want to stay alive. Otherwise Sukhoi will be only game in town.
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    Post  ahmedfire on Fri Aug 28, 2020 9:26 pm

    The Mig-35 is still doing it's job as an multirole fighter without having AESA radar . Requesting the AESA in hurry so that the Mig will be a "better" aircraft doesn't make sense .
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    Post  LMFS on Fri Aug 28, 2020 11:47 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:But the best most powerful fighter based radar right now is a PESA - Irbis E.  Only N036 AESA will be a AESA variant of that as its overall power output is still the same - 20KW.

    Last news I read (from Tikhomirov actually) was that N036 does not match the power of the Irbis, they said the APG-77 had just recently reached that level. I dont know if things have changed in the meantime, it was a some years ago.

    Anyone who touts that it's new = it's better and blah blah blah doesn't know physics or basics of it. Yes, AESA has its pros but nothing it can't be supplimented in add on pods which would do a far better job than the AESA radar itself anyway.  Minus LPI mode which in itself is a joke cause radiation is radiation and it will be picked up by any sensitive receiver.

    Nothing of what we say changes the fact that industry is going that way. I have named some advantages, you just named LPI too. There are enough reasons, most of them related to the flexibility of having the RF side of the radar distributed, and resisting the generational change in technology is pointless, the whole Russian RADAR industry is going AESA right now.

    The Mig-35 is still doing it's job as an multirole fighter without having AESA radar . Requesting the AESA in hurry so that the Mig will be a "better" aircraft doesn't make sense .

    It is not about them rushing, it is rather about them talking less. Repeated unfulfilled claims have the effect of saturating your potential customers.
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    Post  miketheterrible on Sat Aug 29, 2020 12:04 am

    LMFS wrote:
    miketheterrible wrote:But the best most powerful fighter based radar right now is a PESA - Irbis E.  Only N036 AESA will be a AESA variant of that as its overall power output is still the same - 20KW.
     

    Last news I read (from Tikhomirov actually) was that N036 does not match the power of the Irbis, they said the APG-77 had just recently reached that level. I dont know if things have changed in the meantime, it was a some years ago.

    Anyone who touts that it's new = it's better and blah blah blah doesn't know physics or basics of it. Yes, AESA has its pros but nothing it can't be supplimented in add on pods which would do a far better job than the AESA radar itself anyway.  Minus LPI mode which in itself is a joke cause radiation is radiation and it will be picked up by any sensitive receiver.

    Nothing of what we say changes the fact that industry is going that way. I have named some advantages, you just named LPI too. There are enough reasons, most of them related to the flexibility of having the RF side of the radar distributed, and resisting the generational change in technology is pointless, the whole Russian RADAR industry is going AESA right now.

    No, the whole radar industry isn't going AESA right now.  Only some are, and that is smaller radar systems.  Not all large ones are going that route.

    No, N036 was listed at 20KW of power or at least close to it.  No, APG-77 isn't that level of power output.  AESA also has on average a 10% - 20% fail rate of the T/R modules.  The whole market is now aiming at ROFAR more so than anything.  These AESA modules are just a mid step for Russia for their way to Photonic radar.  KRET has two facilities specifically for Photonic radar technology as of right now. Who knows when we will see one though.

    My father worked on NORAD's AESA modules back in the late 80's.  This shit is particularly garbage in terms of quality.  But anyway, as well, LPI mode doesn't really work, at least not against any modern receivers as most modern receivers have sensitive enough sensors to be able to pick up any form of radiation (no matter how little it is) and triangulate location.

    BTW, when we replaced our OTH Radar in the Dew Lines with AESA, we no longer could actually see into certain areas of the USSR when our old PESA module could.  Was a laughing joke among the technicians as they warned this but military wanted "BRAND NEW!!!1!". They initially were able to spot Soviet missile launches with relatively high resolution and reliability. After switching to AESA, the failure rate of pick up of launch had increased quite a bit. This was about a year after he left to get a job more local so he could be with us while we were growing up. Dew line more or less shut down for most part anyway after the end of the Cold War.

    APG-77 has about 1900 T/R modules but its design is based upon very old modules.  Maybe 5W peak per module (Maybe MAX 10W which brings it closer to IRBIS E, but count in about 10 - 20% failure rate of modules...).  But even then, it is the power that can be generated to the Radar.  So at best it has about peak of 10KW of power.  N036 has speculation as to which T/R modules it could run.  Previous ones were also 5W modules that could possibly peak to 7-10W each but failure rate was higher.  Last I read, they worked on two types of modules - GaAN which has 30W modules seen on apparently navy ships as of recently.  But there was GaAS modules posted here a while ago that were peak 15W and in a quad pack.  In theory that would mean about 15W*1,500 which would be over 20KW so if the speculations that it is closer to 20KW of power output, then that means the modules would be these GaAS modules.  Mind you, these were showcased about 3 or so years ago.  I do not know the current part of its production.  All I know is NPP ISTOK is responsible of the T/R Modules.  At least that was about first I read up on the N036 radar.

    Actually the failure rate of the modules at peak use is the reason why Russia never really pushed AESA so much even though they had production of AESA modules as early as around 2005 (maybe earlier too).  Mix in with how expensive it was....
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    Post  LMFS on Sat Aug 29, 2020 1:22 am

    miketheterrible wrote:No, the whole radar industry isn't going AESA right now.  Only some are, and that is smaller radar systems.  Not all large ones are going that route.

    Well, search radars for SAMs and ships are getting AESAs or were already, fighters receive them too, even helicopters, AAM seekers get them too, A-100 and AEW... PESA can remain relevant in some areas but the trend is rather clear I would say. If you have examples of the contrary I am happy to know more.

    No, N036 was listed at 20KW of power or at least close to it.

    Power performance was still below Irbis here:

    RADIO ELECTRONIC TECHNOLOGY #2/2015

    Pages 26 and following. If you have a link about the N036 it would be great seeing it, I have found very little information about it.

    Here, Tikhomirov's director says the Irbis is still ahead of any other radar, AESA or not:

    https://iz.ru/704641/sergei-valchenko/f-22-ne-zhazhdali-vstrechi-s-nashimi-istrebiteliami

    No, APG-77 isn't that level of power output.
     

    I am not finding the quote now, it came from a technical guy from the PAK-FA program. He said that PESA has still advantages in terms of power and the US had only recently managed to achieve the same detection range.

    The whole market is now aiming at ROFAR more so than anything.  These AESA modules are just a mid step for Russia for their way to Photonic radar.  KRET has two facilities specifically for Photonic radar technology as of right now. Who knows when we will see one though.

    Fundamentally new technology usually takes time.

    My father worked on NORAD's AESA modules back in the late 80's.  This shit is particularly garbage in terms of quality.

    Old transistors were unreliable, now every processor has millions and millions of them. Solid state is a very reliable technology. Tikhomirov's guy says in the article above:

    Test flights have confirmed, for example, one of the main advantages of systems with AFAR - a significantly greater operational reliability.

    APG-77 has about 1900 T/R modules but its design is based upon very old modules.  Maybe 5W peak per module (Maybe MAX 10W which brings it closer to IRBIS E, but count in about 10 - 20% failure rate of modules...).  But even then, it is the power that can be generated to the Radar.  So at best it has about peak of 10KW of power.  N036 has speculation as to which T/R modules it could run.  Previous ones were also 5W modules that could possibly peak to 7-10W each but failure rate was higher.  Last I read, they worked on two types of modules - GaAN which has 30W modules seen on apparently navy ships as of recently.  But there was GaAS modules posted here a while ago that were peak 15W and in a quad pack.  In theory that would mean about 15W*1,500 which would be over 20KW so if the speculations that it is closer to 20KW of power output, then that means the modules would be these GaAS modules.  Mind you, these were showcased about 3 or so years ago.  I do not know the current part of its production.  All I know is NPP ISTOK is responsible of the T/R Modules.  At least that was about first I read up on the N036 radar.

    Yeah I have seen several data about TRMs, but in the end what we need is to know which of them apply to N036 and that is not so easy to find out...

    As to GaN, it is going first to EW. US is starting only now with ship and ABM radars if I am not wrong, no fighter based ones in sight that I have heard of. I would be surprised if Russia deploys them on the N036 in short term.

    Actually the failure rate of the modules at peak use is the reason why Russia never really pushed AESA so much even though they had production of AESA modules as early as around 2005 (maybe earlier too).  Mix in with how expensive it was....

    I guess they allowed themselves to exhaust the potential of PESA technology, it makes sense since in terms of algorithms there is a lot that also applies to AESA and also in economic terms. What I found not so optimal is having several companies working in parallel under proprietary technologies instead of getting some cooperation, that would have probably spared money and time, since they had to compensate for a significant Western advantage in that particular technology.
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    Post  GarryB on Sat Aug 29, 2020 5:35 pm

    Nope, you don't seem to understand it... I just say that if you design a 4++ gen aircraft, you better do it before everybody and their dog have a 5G plane in the market... you seem keen on seeing much more criticism in what I say than I intended and try to portray my position as a collection of tired and unhinged cliches. I take no offence, but it does not bring the discussion further

    What I am trying to say without offending you is that someone who judges a paint brush based on the last colour of paint it was dipped in is pretty shallow and short sighted... it does not matter if the MiG-35 enters service with its new AESA radar or if that takes a year or two extra to get into service.

    An aircraft is more than just its radar.

    It is easier to change a radar than to develop an aircraft...

    politics of course can help a lot as you say.

    Politics will always count against MiG.

    Anyone who touts that it's new = it's better and blah blah blah doesn't know physics or basics of it. Yes, AESA has its pros but nothing it can't be supplimented in add on pods which would do a far better job than the AESA radar itself anyway. Minus LPI mode which in itself is a joke cause radiation is radiation and it will be picked up by any sensitive receiver.

    Made more amusing by the fact that the MiG-35 is the Low in the Low High team for Russian 4th gen fighters...

    Perhaps they have realised that the Su-30 is not cutting it and is not as cheap to operate as they hoped it might be.... we just don't know.

    MiG better drop it and get their ass moving for the next jet if they want to stay alive. Otherwise Sukhoi will be only game in town.

    Going forward the MiG-35 is an almost Su-35 that is smaller and lighter and cheaper, and while it has slightly shorter range, it is cheaper to operate and is carrier capable, and if you want to build air fields in the Arctic being able to fly out to a carrier in the arctic ocean and land... refuel and then take off again would make it a useful plane that can be kept in smaller hangars...

    the whole Russian RADAR industry is going AESA right now.

    But certainly not fast enough to please some fanboys...

    It is not about them rushing, it is rather about them talking less. Repeated unfulfilled claims have the effect of saturating your potential customers.

    Yeah, you don't think they keep mentioning it because people like you keep asking if it is ready yet...

    Personally I think carrying a 300km range AAM called R-37M is more important than some fruity radar...

    But anyway, as well, LPI mode doesn't really work, at least not against any modern receivers as most modern receivers have sensitive enough sensors to be able to pick up any form of radiation (no matter how little it is) and triangulate location.

    My understanding of LPI was that it uses multiple frequencies at once to reduce the power output and make it impossible for a narrow band receiver to detect the entire signal which is then discarded as noise. Modern broad band receivers detect it just fine...


    I guess they allowed themselves to exhaust the potential of PESA technology,

    The USNavy does not seem to be in a hurry to replace its Nimitz class carriers with Fords just yet, and the Zumwalts also seem to not be getting a huge welcome they deserve... perhaps something that works well and is a mature system sometimes makes more sense than a jump into the dark on something that in theory might be better when it is mature but right now is a bag full of problems.

    Never Beta test for Microsoft either... always wait till the third service pack before going for a new OS.

    Military forces in Russia are know for being conservative...

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    Post  Isos on Sat Aug 29, 2020 6:00 pm


    It is easier to change a radar than to develop an aircraft...

    That's why mig-35 is a failure. It's being introduced when everyone else buys 5th generation fighters.

    Anyone buying it will know neighbour countries will have better fighters while they will be stuck with a modern mig-29 for years because it is not easy to replace a fleet of fighters.

    Even mig is developing a 5th generation fighter. For that matter it's better to wait for it.

    Perhaps they have realised that the Su-30 is not cutting it and is not as cheap to operate as they hoped it might be.... we just don't know.

    Well they operate it in Syria for years while the only mig-29SMT deployed there was sent back hile pretty fast.

    Su30 has twice the range and twice the payload. Mig-35 needs two sorties to achieve same result as su-30 in one sortie. At the end using a small fighter to reach the level of work of a bigger fighter brings its operational cost at the same level too.

    Personally I think carrying a 300km range AAM called R-37M is more important than some fruity radar...

    Without the radar you would need an external radar closer to the target to launch it at such distance and it will be pretty big rcs target. Zhuk-M and its 140km couldn't even use it IMO.

    They need the AESA with 260km range for the r-37M. That is a nice power up for the jet and help export it but no use for russia.

    Su-35 can launch it at even an f16 at max range with no problem.


    Last edited by Isos on Sat Aug 29, 2020 6:05 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Post  flamming_python on Sat Aug 29, 2020 6:03 pm

    It's clearly not selling and that's the bottom line

    Not to the RuAF, not to foreign buyers

    Get an AESA on that mofo, as intended. Make sure it's cheaper than the Su-35. And that way there can be some niche for it, rather than just being overshadowed by its longer-range, heavier older brother.
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    Post  marcellogo on Sat Aug 29, 2020 8:30 pm

    flamming_python wrote:It's clearly not selling and that's the bottom line

    Not to the RuAF, not to foreign buyers

    Get an AESA on that mofo, as intended. Make sure it's cheaper than the Su-35. And that way there can be some niche for it, rather than just being overshadowed by its longer-range, heavier older brother.

    In the RuAF is absolutely clear that it is totally overshadowed by the whole of members of Flanker family, so it will just fill a niche, less important and way less decisive compared to the one filled by the other product of the same firm i.e. the MiG-31.
    Still, small as it could be such niche need to be filled anyway and so MiG own's assembly line that could not wait until PAK-DP and LMFI will be ready.
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    Post  LMFS on Sat Aug 29, 2020 9:04 pm

    GarryB wrote:What I am trying to say without offending you is that someone who judges a paint brush based on the last colour of paint it was dipped in is pretty shallow and short sighted..


    I am talking after seeing the program develop for almost 15 years. Su-35 was being developed in early 2000's, MiG probably didn't want to be left behind and presented the -35 in 2007... but they didn't have the product. 10 years later they presented the plane again... only it wasn't ready either. And so it goes.

    it does not matter if the MiG-35 enters service with its new AESA radar or if that takes a year or two extra to get into service.

    Yeah I would be happy with AESA or without it, that is what I am repeating and you refuse to understand... just do something and bring it into the market. As to the two years you say it will take for the AESA, the radar is "almost" ready for 15 years. It could come tomorrow, in ten years or never, who knows.

    It is easier to change a radar than to develop an aircraft...

    Easy, if you pay for it. What sense does it make to install Zhuk-M today and change them in two years?

    Politics will always count against MiG.

    You said it yourself, some countries don't have many chances to get what they want in the market. India would not get the F-35, so that is one competitor less. Syria will not get anything from the West and is indebted with Russia... pity they are broke, but they would buy MiGs very probably. So there are definitively some customers that would happily buy, if they had the money...

    Perhaps they have realised that the Su-30 is not cutting it and is not as cheap to operate as they hoped it might be.... we just don't know.

    Well, what we know is that they are replacing MiG units with Su-30...

    But certainly not fast enough to please some fanboys...

    And not slow enough to exhaust the infinite good will of others... after waiting for 15 years we are not "boys" anymore Rolling Eyes

    Isos wrote:Well they operate it in Syria for years while the only mig-29SMT deployed there was sent back hile pretty fast.

    Even in a theater as small as Syria they are not using it, that makes you question what the VKS expectations with MiGs are.

    Su30 has twice the range and twice the payload. Mig-35 needs two sorties to achieve same result as su-30 in one sortie

    Exactly. The MiG goes nowhere without its EFTs, the result is that the stations capable for big weapons are not usable. It is not true that it is "90% of a Su-35", not even close...
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    Post  ahmedfire on Sun Aug 30, 2020 5:26 am

    That's why mig-35 is a failure. It's being introduced when everyone else buys 5th generation fighters.

    Anyone buying it will know neighbour countries will have better fighters while they will be stuck with a modern mig-29 for years because it is not easy to replace a fleet of fighters.

    4th and 4++ gerneration fighters will serve for the next 20 years or more , that's why US airforce has intended to refresh the aging F-15C/D, a decision to replace the F-15E Strike Eagle fleet with the EX is an option. Israel is modernizing it's F-16 ,15 fleet and French navy is modernizing their Rafale to F3-R standard . The Eurofighter partners said the aircraft will serve up to 2040 .

    I doubt any state can replace it's fleet with 5th generation fighters in the next two decades at least .
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    Post  Isos on Sun Aug 30, 2020 6:13 am

    You are right. But that's not really a reason to use mig-29 as a basis for their mig-35, or at least should have they done it before 2010.

    What really matter is what US, China and Israel have because in the future they will be the main threats. Israel and US are already using f35 to bomb people. And they are all getting more and more f-35, J-20 and j-31.

    Mig-35 won't compete against them. They all have the advantage of stealth and launch their missiles first. Also export countries don't have the russian IADS to help them fight such aircraft.
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    Post  Stealthflanker on Sun Aug 30, 2020 9:49 am

    So, what actually happened to the Zhuk-AE ? What actually prevented its adoption or even offers as upgrade to VVS MIG's or in general why Phazotron phased arrays never eally got adopted. Before Zhuk AE, there were PESA's like Zhuk MFE and MSFE. But instead the more conventional Zhuk-M or Kopyo was adopted instead.

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    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Sun Aug 30, 2020 4:44 pm

    That's why mig-35 is a failure. It's being introduced when everyone else buys 5th generation fighters.

    Everyone?

    The more F-35s go into service the better... it wont make it cheaper, but it is going to make Air Forces around the world appreciate 4th gen fighters much more...

    Anyone buying it will know neighbour countries will have better fighters while they will be stuck with a modern mig-29 for years because it is not easy to replace a fleet of fighters.

    Any country buying it knows they couldn't afford Rafales and even if they could who could trust the French not to cancel at the last second before delivery...

    Typhoon? Gripen? if it can't be as good then it might as well be much much cheaper...

    Even mig is developing a 5th generation fighter. For that matter it's better to wait for it.

    A 5th generation stealth fighter is not going to be as cheap as a MiG-35... no country will be able to afford an all 5th gen stealth aircraft fighter force in numbers to mean anything except the US and they are putting the F-15 back into production which means even they can't afford it.

    Well they operate it in Syria for years while the only mig-29SMT deployed there was sent back hile pretty fast.

    Well they are a bit fucked then aren't they... those Su-57s didn't stay long and were sent back pretty fast as well... Oh Ohh.... Shocked

    Su30 has twice the range and twice the payload. Mig-35 needs two sorties to achieve same result as su-30 in one sortie. At the end using a small fighter to reach the level of work of a bigger fighter brings its operational cost at the same level too.

    Fighter never operate alone, and you are assuming the Su-30 was required in the first place. A MiG-35 might be able to get the job done with one flight of four in one sortie... much cheaper than the bigger heavier more expensive Su-30s could do it.

    Otherwise there would never be a need for smaller fighters, which is clearly not true.

    Without the radar you would need an external radar closer to the target to launch it at such distance and it will be pretty big rcs target. Zhuk-M and its 140km couldn't even use it IMO.

    The R-37M is intended for shooting down JSTARS and AWACS and inflight refuelling aircraft, for which its current radar is likely just fine.

    They need the AESA with 260km range for the r-37M. That is a nice power up for the jet and help export it but no use for russia.

    Because HATO does not have JSTARS and AWACS and inflight refuelling aircraft?

    Su-35 can launch it at even an f16 at max range with no problem.

    Why waste an R-37M on an F-16?

    It's clearly not selling and that's the bottom line

    Not to the RuAF, not to foreign buyers

    The problem is that people blame MiG... it is the morons in the RuAF that wanted a Flanker fleet and weren't interested in cheaper better options in smaller packages... as usual easily impressed with size.

    Too tight to spend money on guided air to ground weapons the multirole performance of the SMT upgrades didn't impress them because it would cost money to actually get the direct benefit of a multirole force... ignoring the reduction in operational costs.

    Get an AESA on that mofo, as intended.

    Not much MiG can do about that... the current radar is better than no radar at all, but some people want it now or they will bitch and moan on the internet because they want it now... they don't care that not only is it currently not better because it is not ready, or that it will cost a fortune to put it into service whether it is ready or not, so leaving it till it actually works means a visible benefit when you do get it... instead of Ford class and Zumwalt class and LCA class problems putting it in the water before it works...

    I am talking after seeing the program develop for almost 15 years. Su-35 was being developed in early 2000's, MiG probably didn't want to be left behind and presented the -35 in 2007... but they didn't have the product. 10 years later they presented the plane again... only it wasn't ready either. And so it goes.

    Wow... was it really that simple.... I mean no MRCA programme with India, and they have done nothing else at all in that time... really?

    So I guess if it was a 2007 design it must be full of western components... that might be why production is slow now because they import western electronics one piece at a time up someones ass...

    Yeah I would be happy with AESA or without it, that is what I am repeating and you refuse to understand... just do something and bring it into the market. As to the two years you say it will take for the AESA, the radar is "almost" ready for 15 years. It could come tomorrow, in ten years or never, who knows.

    You said it was obsolete... like all the other potential options for a Russian medium fighter are better... I would love to be there when you say to the Russians they should save time and get a proven design and buy Rafales... Razz

    Easy, if you pay for it. What sense does it make to install Zhuk-M today and change them in two years?

    Once the new radars are ready I doubt they will be making them in large numbers... certainly not to start with...

    Well, what we know is that they are replacing MiG units with Su-30...

    They have no MiG-35s at the moment... what would you expect them to replace the MiG units with.... cardboard cutouts?

    And not slow enough to exhaust the infinite good will of others... after waiting for 15 years we are not "boys" anymore

    You want it sooner get your cheque book out...


    Even in a theater as small as Syria they are not using it, that makes you question what the VKS expectations with MiGs are.

    They tested SMTs there... what is there left to test in older model MiG-29s?

    Exactly. The MiG goes nowhere without its EFTs, the result is that the stations capable for big weapons are not usable. It is not true that it is "90% of a Su-35", not even close...

    Its standard EFT is the centreline one and it often does not use or need that. Most Su-27s operated on less than quarter tank levels of fuel...

    I doubt any state can replace it's fleet with 5th generation fighters in the next two decades at least .

    I hope the EU does.... nothing better than HATO pissing away its money on shit planes like the F-35... makes Russia and China and the rest of the world much safer....

    You are right. But that's not really a reason to use mig-29 as a basis for their mig-35, or at least should have they done it before 2010.

    Because leaving it to now means all the existing planes it was up against in 2010 are all totally different?

    Because after 2010 MiG has developed a whole new plane and could base it on that instead?

    The new 5th gen MiG stealth fighter is never going to be as cheap as a decent 4th gen fighter, and the Mig-35 is a decent 4th gen fighter.

    What really matter is what US, China and Israel have because in the future they will be the main threats. Israel and US are already using f35 to bomb people. And they are all getting more and more f-35, J-20 and j-31.

    As Syria stabilises and regains control of its territory and resources then buying MiGs and Flankers and air defence systems render F-35 even more useless than it is now.

    China is not a threat to anyone by their choice.

    Mig-35 won't compete against them.

    Why not? DIRCMS on the MiG-35 and modern jamming pods and a fight against any of those planes comes down to dogfighting with guns and with TVC the MiG should be better than any of the aircraft you mentioned.

    Newer missiles designed and made for Su-57 but available to all Russian aircraft to enable them to engage stealth aircraft should be just as potent on a MiG-35.

    They all have the advantage of stealth and launch their missiles first.

    Who says? What advantage is F-35 stealth if ground based radar can track them from other countries. A very low flying F-35 will be vulnerable to ground fire and MANPADS and will find its flight range to be much shorter than advertised...

    Also export countries don't have the russian IADS to help them fight such aircraft.

    No other country on the planet has that so that is a problem for any plane they buy.

    So, what actually happened to the Zhuk-AE ?

    When having a Christmas morning tantrum because the present you were promised isn't there, if you don't ask such questions then you know it is more about the tantrum than anything else..
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    Post  Isos on Sun Aug 30, 2020 5:08 pm

    Everyone?

    The more F-35s go into service the better... it wont make it cheaper, but it is going to make Air Forces around the world appreciate 4th gen fighters much more...

    No they won't. Even countries like Turkey are creating 5th geberation fighters.

    4th generation ones are almost done. Few contracts left that are going for su35 or rafale. The rest of them have no more export potentiel. There is no more client.

    Any country buying it knows they couldn't afford Rafales and even if they could who could trust the French not to cancel at the last second before delivery...

    Typhoon? Gripen? if it can't be as good then it might as well be much much cheaper...

    What are you talking ? Go check numbers.

    They were sold in huge numbers all the past years.

    Mig-35 : 2 produced for RuAF. And they will go to aerobatic teams. That's pathetic.

    What other state is left to buy the mig35 in decent numbers ? None.

    A 5th generation stealth fighter is not going to be as cheap as a MiG-35... no country will be able to afford an all 5th gen stealth aircraft fighter force in numbers

    Only russia, us and china have huge air forces with many type of aircraft. (Not counting the arab states who buys them for political support...).

    The rest want only 1 multirole fighter in small numbers and they will put money on a new f35 rather than on the mig-35 based on mig-29.

    Well they are a bit fucked then aren't they... those Su-57s didn't stay long and were sent back pretty fast as well... Oh Ohh.... Shocked

    Mig-29SMT is in service and according to you is 2 times cheaper than the su-30. According to your logic it should be used in Syria where the sky is pretty calm for RuAF.

    Su-57 was at the time a prototype with its wrapons not even tested. That's a stupid argument.
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    Post  LMFS on Sun Aug 30, 2020 7:04 pm

    GarryB wrote:The problem is that people blame MiG... it is the morons in the RuAF that wanted a Flanker fleet and weren't interested in cheaper better options in smaller packages... as usual easily impressed with size.

    Maybe they know a bit more than you about their fleet and their needs? They may simply need to regenerate capabilities and concentrate on the backbone of the air force at that precise moment, they are rebuilding air bases now. Maybe in the future they develop the lo part of the mix

    You said it was obsolete...

    I said it was walking to obsolescence, which is a fact for all 4G platforms. That means, it is in the later part of the operational life of the platform. It does not mean it does not have use, but it is probably its last chance so you cannot waste time.  

    They have no MiG-35s at the moment... what would you expect them to replace the MiG units with.... cardboard cutouts?

    They have MiG-35 flying since 2007 and MiG-29M are available.

    Low side of the mix is expected to outnumber the high in a proportion of 2:1, so you can understand the kind of numbers we would expect to see the MiGs being bought and deployed.

    They tested SMTs there... what is there left to test in older model MiG-29s?

    Are they still "testing" the -30/34/35 there, or just using them? If you have old -29 airframes you are going to retire, better use them in low risk conflicts, in short range / low payload missions like the ones over Syria, that would be a ideal operational theater for the MiGs and save Russia money. It is intriguing that they don't use them, honestly.

    Its standard EFT is the centreline one and it often does not use or need that.

    Often in airshows, maybe...

    If you consider the fuel load and heavy weight stations available, it is clear the Flanker is massively ahead. Two centerline stations (that can carry two AAMs each), plus intakes plus big stations in the wings means capacity to carry 8 big pieces of A2G ordnance with ease and keep stations for AAM, while in such a mission the -29 needs three bags and would deliver a low fraction of the ordnance. I am not trying to put the MiG down (it was the air force that designed it so in the end), I am just stating facts that may make clear why VKS may currently prefer Flankers. As you said yourself, they re not lacking fuel so for the same overheads in terms of labour than a MiG and a bit more fuel they get lots more of capability and flexibility.

    EFTs have massive drag indexes, so when you use them you pay twice in terms of range: one for the extra weight, and one for the extra drag. And if you want to get rid of them after having used up the fuel, then you have the cost of ejecting the EFT, so it is a losing game. In US they are just now realizing how great is to have planes that don't need EFTs to the point of seeing it as one of the biggest advantages of 5G, Russians had this already with the Flankers for 40 years. I can understand their preferences, and hence why I have proposed to make the lo side of the mix as light, cheap and simple as possible, so it really makes a difference compared to the Flankers.

    Stealthflanker wrote:So, what actually happened to the Zhuk-AE ? What actually prevented its adoption or even offers as upgrade to VVS MIG's or in general why Phazotron phased arrays never eally got adopted. Before Zhuk AE, there were PESA's like Zhuk MFE and MSFE. But instead the more conventional Zhuk-M or Kopyo was adopted instead.

    That is the million-dollar question. Phazotron regularly update their FGA models, I am sure you are aware of them, and they show them in the MiG-35, but VKS is buying the planes without them and MiG says it is not ready yet. No idea, frankly, but I hope they finally deliver something and specially they are in conditions to offer them to India because they seem to consider that important.

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