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    Non-sense on russian military equipment

    Big_Gazza
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    Post  Big_Gazza on Mon May 18, 2020 9:04 pm

    d_taddei2 wrote:Views on this article. Hmmmmm
    "Chinese military experts praised the Russian Su-35, but said it was unsuitable for air combat"

    http://defense-studies.blogspot.com/2020/05/russian-su-35-lost-against-j-16-and-j.html?m=1

    No sources in this "article", so no evidence that any of these claims are genuine, and one of the last places I would go to to find honest appraisal of the Su-35 would be some non-descript Indonesian website. Pfftt...

    "However, the fighter has flaws, and its avionics system is not very developed, so it is completely devoid of perspectives."

    Dafuq?  Seriously?  Suspect
    kvs
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    Post  kvs on Mon May 18, 2020 11:13 pm

    Big_Gazza wrote:
    d_taddei2 wrote:Views on this article. Hmmmmm
    "Chinese military experts praised the Russian Su-35, but said it was unsuitable for air combat"

    http://defense-studies.blogspot.com/2020/05/russian-su-35-lost-against-j-16-and-j.html?m=1

    No sources in this "article", so no evidence that any of these claims are genuine, and one of the last places I would go to to find honest appraisal of the Su-35 would be some non-descript Indonesian website. Pfftt...

    "However, the fighter has flaws, and its avionics system is not very developed, so it is completely devoid of perspectives."

    Dafuq?  Seriously?  Suspect

    Indonesia remains Uncle Scumbag's bitch. Nothing they have to say on this matter has any worth, in fact it is
    deliberate misinformation to undermine Scumbag's most serious military product competitor.

    miketheterrible
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    Post  miketheterrible on Tue May 19, 2020 1:20 am

    Big_Gazza wrote:
    d_taddei2 wrote:Views on this article. Hmmmmm
    "Chinese military experts praised the Russian Su-35, but said it was unsuitable for air combat"

    http://defense-studies.blogspot.com/2020/05/russian-su-35-lost-against-j-16-and-j.html?m=1

    No sources in this "article", so no evidence that any of these claims are genuine, and one of the last places I would go to to find honest appraisal of the Su-35 would be some non-descript Indonesian website. Pfftt...

    "However, the fighter has flaws, and its avionics system is not very developed, so it is completely devoid of perspectives."

    Dafuq?  Seriously?  Suspect

    Not even an Indonesia site. It's a blogspot. Only blogspots I trust are from real individuals who provides sources.

    If let's say the Chinese are telling the truth, it's a joke. Cause China's Airforce tech is like ground force tech - shit quality where they rely on stealing other people's tech. Plus no one is eager to buy their jets which gives good indication of lack of quality.


    That part you quote doesn't even make sense, especially since there is a video online showing Irbis E use and actual performance of about 400km range while it's onboard systems actually work. What has China proven? Nothing. The Russians use these jets in other countries. What has China used? They are afraid to even go into Syria
    d_taddei2
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    Post  d_taddei2 on Tue May 19, 2020 5:40 am

    Please note they are not my comments. The article came up as suggested article. And I thought I'd share the article on the grounds to show everyone the crap that's being said about su-35 I like many others totally agree against what is said in the article.
    Isos
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    Post  Isos on Tue May 19, 2020 6:08 am

    A note to take into account, right now Russia is trying to sell some su-35 to Indonesia and US want them to buy their own fighters instead... this guy was probably paid to say some shit about the su-35 because the contract seem to be happening.

    Also it is funny that some Indonesian support China when we know that right now chinese are looking at their islands like their are chinese. When they will be sending them in their concentration camps in the north with the uighurs, j-10 won't help them.
    Sujoy
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    Post  Sujoy on Tue May 19, 2020 7:22 am

    U.S propaganda has ensured that several gullible leaders across Asia, Europe and Africa believe that US weapons are the very best available. Nothing could be further from the truth.

    OTOH U.S government and it media spends billions to showcase Russian military H/W in poor light the world over.

    Ergo, we can start a thread where we identify the technological issues with western military hardware. So that at least the people who visit this forum realizes that U.S military H/W is anything but invincible.
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Tue May 19, 2020 8:14 am

    I don't really think Russia would see any RED if the Finns buy Gripens.

    They will if they then join HATO... as the swedes and other HATO countries want...

    They already have 55 F-18s. A country like Finland cannot realisticly counter Russia on its own. They buy weapons to form alliances. While Finland is not a member of NATO, they have not joined "officially" out of respect to Russia not wanting a NATO nation on its borders.

    Don't you see that a neutral Finland is much safer than one that is part of HATO... how long after they join will they be sending Finnish troops to Afghanistan or Libya?

    Finland joined Germany in attacking the USSR in WWII. There were clearly some difficult conditions negotiated that allowed Finland to not be occupied by Russia after WWII, including some significant reparitions.

    The Finns joined with Germany to take back land Stalin had seized in the winter war before Germany invaded the Soviet Union. The Finns took back their land but did not cross into Soviet territory with the Germans and did not directly assist the seige of Leningrad or other German attacks.
    I think that earned them Stalins respect if anything.

    The Finns I would say are an unofficial NATO member and have co-opertion agreements with NATO, but the red line is official membership. Finland cannot purchase any non-nuclear weapons that can actually counter Russia.

    The only reason they would need to "counter" Russia would be if they were a threat and they would only be a threat if they were part of HATO.

    That is the reality, similar to Canada NZ and Oz. If these relatively advanced nations really wanted independant security, the only option would be nuclear weapons.

    Bullshit. If we wanted real security we would have conscription and every adult male and female would be trained to shoot and fight. There is no realistic threat on the horizon that we would need fighter planes for. We couldn't afford more than one F-35 and even then we would buy it on a plan where we paid it over 10 years... we could not afford to use it, so it would stay in its wrapper anyway.

    As for Gripen, I still say its very low cost to operate. "Only" $4700 per flight hour according to Janes. Also the Czechs are extending the lease when they are pretty broke.

    It is not a cheap aircraft at all... I would not believe that figure for flight hours.

    Finland does not have 55 F-18s to counter Russia, they are for the alliance with USA. Maybe they will buy the SAAB-Boeing fighter based on the Tx...of F-18 Superhornets like Germany because alignment with Germany is also desirable.

    Any alliance with the US in that part of the world is all about countering Russia. The tactical nukes pointed at Finland will be aimed at the bases that operate F-18s.... any new fighters no matter where they come from will just add to the number of nuclear weapons pointed at Finland.

    Russia isn't going to invade Europe.... it doesn't need extra land... Europe is a threat and you deal with threats by destroying them before they can harm you. Getting in to bed with HATO will just mean Finland will be destroyed too. From a Russian perspective it just means nuclear detonations closer to their border but less guesses as to are they or aren't they. For Finland it means a much quicker death in WWIII which will likely be a relief, and for HATO it is another buffer state they can fight in where they don't risk their own cities for the conventional conflict... they just don't realise there is not going to be a conventional conflict.

    With this reasoning no country with a smaller armed forces then Russia should spend any money on its defence.

    Not at all... there are plenty of countries that need armed forces for national defence, but the whole idea of a group of small countries forming a group for collective defence so they can stand up to big countries is pretty dumb. What you effectively get is the war mongering colonial countries leading the organisation and using it for their own personal needs... HATO forces in Afghanistan and Iraq and soon Iran and perhaps Libya and Syria if they can manage it... WTF does that have to do with Finland?

    Sure it suits US and French and British interests, but how does Georgia benefit sending its troops to fight and die in wars that have nothing at all to do with them?

    Collective security my ass... more like cannon fodder for the big guys.

    The idea of Finland and Swedens defence during the cold war was to have such large defence that it would not be worth attacking them. A modern fighter a large part of that.

    Finlands security is better served by avoiding joining HATO.... an organisation designed to bait the Bear.

    And yes why should Russia care about Finland buying Gripens from semi-neutral Sweden when they are flying US made F-18s today.

    Russia wont care... it will just allocate the necessary tactical nuclear missiles to target their bases and things will carry on as normal.

    Views on this article. Hmmmmm
    "Chinese military experts praised the Russian Su-35, but said it was unsuitable for air combat"

    Wow... that is Amazing.... your plane is shit so we will only buy it if it is the right price...

    More amusing the advanced radar it is fitted with detects the position of the target but cannot quickly determine the distance to that target... how can you call such a radar advanced then?

    This guy is not even using sensible aircraft terms so I suspect he is being paid to ride down the Su-35... being Indonesian, I suspect a contract must be due there soon...
    d_taddei2
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    Post  d_taddei2 on Tue May 19, 2020 8:17 am

    Sujoy wrote:U.S propaganda has ensured that several gullible leaders across Asia, Europe and Africa believe that US weapons are the very best available. Nothing could be further from the truth.

    OTOH U.S government and it media spends billions to showcase Russian military H/W in poor light the world over.  

    Ergo, we can start a thread where we identify the technological issues with western military hardware. So that at least the people who visit this forum realizes that U.S military H/W is anything but invincible.

    And then the Western weapons come with a lot of red tape and restrictions and a massive ongoing cost along with political conditions.

    Most forget each country has their own specific needs and threats and a budget as well. If a country has a low air threat buying expensive fighter jets would be pointless if you can get away using a light fighter. Russia actually has a great inventory of equipment to suit all budgets, the west only has expensive weapons to offer, their idea of cheap is old secondhand equipment that's still expensive for what it is. While Russia has tanks AFV APC ATGW aircraft helicopters air defence etc etc all at varying prices and needs that's something West will never have. I always believe if it's fit for purpose buy it no need to go over that just to enter cock measuring contest at the expense of the public purse
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    Post  Sujoy on Tue May 19, 2020 12:28 pm

    d_taddei2 wrote: And then the Western weapons come with a lot of red tape and restrictions and a massive ongoing cost along with political conditions.

    True. Everything that you said.

    Moreover, if a country purchases weapons from the U.S it's not the purchaser who has leverage over the US, it's the US that now has leverage over the country that purchases its hardware.

    They can raise cost of supplying components whenever they want to. They can also stop the supply of components altogether. Reducing those US made H/W into expensive paper weights.

    Furthermore, as they claim themselves their hardware always have in built back doors

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/feb/23/nsa-director-defends-backdoors-into-technology-companies

    It’s entirely possible that there is code in the seeker software in the missile that can be trigger to ignore a target, it would be next to impossible to find if done well.

    https://www.archive.ece.cmu.edu/~ganger/712.fall02/papers/p761-thompson.pdf

    miketheterrible
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    Post  miketheterrible on Tue May 19, 2020 12:32 pm

    Well, a country like Egypt that has access to all weapon systems (Rafale as example) is also now buying Su-35. Mix in the tests seen in Syria, the actual video of the Irbis-E tested, and China buying it (obviously to test it and reverse engineer its engines and avionics) and others showing interest is an indication it is a great jet. China, who could be building more J-20's instead, isn't. They are slowly going at it while calling Su-57 a failure when their shitty J-20 was spotted by Su-30MKI Bars radar from 180km away. Mix in with their crappy engines that forces them to purchase Russian engines instead.

    It is easy to trash talk Russian jets, but they get the shit done. And everyone creates new articles about how either Su-35 is shit or its magnificent (both west and east articles) gives indication people are afraid of the system itself. Only other jet I could actually say is as good as it is the Rafale in terms of overall performance.
    Isos
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    Post  Isos on Tue May 19, 2020 1:07 pm

    It is easy to trash talk Russian jets, but they get the shit done.

    Not that easy. They have provided 0 proof till today.

    Russia has provided images of a f-22 being intercepted, stories about su-35 harrassing f-18 in WVR "fight" in the east, cideo of the radar working at 400km. They use it in syria for about 5 years now and incident with the engines.

    Where are chinese proofs that their shit is worth something ? They even buy su-35 for patroling the hotest zones (in terms of tension) where they face japan and US. Where are the j16 and j10 ? They use them to watch their own population. Their missiles use r-77 technology. J16 is a total copy of su-27UB using copies of russian missiles. They have nothing to be proud of.

    J-10 exists thanks to israeli who sold them their own design of the Lavi. Their IR missile is just a copy of israeli missile which is a copy of US missile.

    Non-sense on russian military equipment - Page 3 Images15

    I could keep like that for all day long.
    miketheterrible
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    Post  miketheterrible on Tue May 19, 2020 1:58 pm

    Isos wrote:
    It is easy to trash talk Russian jets, but they get the shit done.

    Not that easy. They have provided 0 proof till today.

    Russia has provided images of a f-22 being intercepted, stories about su-35 harrassing f-18 in WVR "fight" in the east, cideo of the radar working at 400km. They use it in syria for about 5 years now and incident with the engines.

    Where are chinese proofs that their shit is worth something ? They even buy su-35 for patroling the hotest zones (in terms of tension) where they face japan and US. Where are the j16 and j10 ? They use them to watch their own population. Their missiles use r-77 technology. J16 is a total copy of su-27UB using copies of russian missiles. They have nothing to be proud of.

    J-10 exists thanks to israeli who sold them their own design of the Lavi. Their IR missile is just a copy of israeli missile which is a copy of US missile.

    Non-sense on russian military equipment - Page 3 Images15

    I could keep like that for all day long.  

    I think you might have misunderstood me.  I mean, they (the bullshitters) talk trash as its easy to make all these claims without providing proof (as you said).  But you are fully correct, there has been not a single proof provided of the Chinese jets being used.  And we have seen experience of Chinese tanks where they are sent elsewhere and tested in competitions where either their turret falls off or the tracks fall off.  As you said, all they did was copy everything.  They love to talk about how they have AESA and what not.  Well, I question its quality.  You can have AESA but if they operate at 5W modules each and with a total of what, 1000 modules and about 10% of them fail (since its Chinese I would wager its about 20% or more due to piss poor quality) they would have ranges at best 200km against a fighter sized target while Russias Su-35 has about 300km+ for fighter sized target.

    China of all people are the last to talk about what is good and what isn't.  Yes, we get it, they are good at manufacturing shit fast and cheap.  They are good at copying technology and producing microelectronics en mass.  But that doesn't mean they actually make quality stuff.

    What is funny about your picture is that Israel has done so much shit like this (handing out western tech to China) yet they dont even get a peep of shit.
    kvs
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    Post  kvs on Tue May 19, 2020 2:30 pm

    China's problem is that it has been living off the copy and paste crack for too long. Time to get in gear and solve the problems
    indigenously. That will result in more competent engineers and better quality control.

    But China is too busy trash talking Russian military equipment to "win" some export market to focus on the right priorities.
    No amount of smear aimed at Russian equipment will obscure 2nd rate performance of Chinese knock-offs.

    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Wed May 20, 2020 6:55 am

    Sounds more like someone trying to get a better price on the next batch....
    JohninMK
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    Post  JohninMK on Wed May 20, 2020 8:50 am

    kvs wrote:China's problem is that it has been living off the copy and paste crack for too long.  Time to get in gear and solve the problems
    indigenously.   That will result in more competent engineers and better quality control.

    But China is too busy trash talking Russian military equipment to "win" some export market to focus on the right priorities.
    No amount of smear aimed at Russian equipment will obscure 2nd rate performance of Chinese knock-offs.

    Its all down to the contract with the Chinese. Specify cheap and you get it, specify high quality and it can be the best in the World, like Apple/Lenovo etc etc.

    They have 'got into gear' and, as an example, Huawei which has been around over 30 years and is now spending $10B+ a year on R&D, more than anyone else, anywhere, and that is copying no-one. Now they are World leaders, at the bleeding edge of networks, especially 5G, technology. OK they copied Cisco/Netgear etc at the start (nothing like a bit of open source code to help, we used it) but copy and improve is a very valid strategy when you are driven and starting from nothing. Their students, who seem to be bright, are being taught at the best places in the West and taking that background home.

    In defence, when you have the manpower, sometimes simple is good and the quality is in the quantity. We have no idea what their base technological capability is but we can be sure that it is improving fast.

    This is what really pisses the US off, a country that isn't one of their vassals is getting ahead and out of their control with none of their back doors. Then all the vassals have to join in the condemnations.

    But, as I said at the top of the page and Garry has just seconded, this looks like a potential strategy to get a better price on more Su-35s, if Russia has the capacity to make them of course.
    miketheterrible
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    Post  miketheterrible on Wed May 20, 2020 8:56 am

    No, you can't get high quality from China. Medium quality at best. Even great wall cars which were supposed to be more quality brand of China has piss poor records in quality in Russia. Far below Lada automobiles. Hence why Lada and Kia are still best sellers in Russia and not Chinese automobiles.

    It's all a joke.
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    Post  JohninMK on Wed May 20, 2020 9:19 am

    miketheterrible wrote:No, you can't get high quality from China. Medium quality at best.  Even great wall cars which were supposed to be more quality brand of China has piss poor records in quality in Russia. Far below Lada automobiles.  Hence why Lada and Kia are still best sellers in Russia and not Chinese automobiles.

    It's all a joke.

    If you don't regard as a minimum the best Chinese made mobile phones as the highest quality there is something seriously wrong with your judgement.
    kvs
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    Post  kvs on Wed May 20, 2020 10:57 am

    JohninMK wrote:
    miketheterrible wrote:No, you can't get high quality from China. Medium quality at best.  Even great wall cars which were supposed to be more quality brand of China has piss poor records in quality in Russia. Far below Lada automobiles.  Hence why Lada and Kia are still best sellers in Russia and not Chinese automobiles.

    It's all a joke.

    If you don't regard as a minimum the best Chinese made mobile phones as the highest quality there is something seriously wrong with your judgement.

    You make the invalid assumption that the QA on Chinese mobile phones is high.

    1) You have no idea what their actual failure and defect rate is. How much of Apple's production line is trashed before making out
    the door. Sweatshops allow for such waste since the primary cost of production is labour and not materials. It is vastly more
    difficult to apply such filtering to military equipment.

    2) You have no idea what defect rate Apple garbage has in North America and elsewhere even after being filtered for non-functional
    junk. I see plenty of evidence that Apple's products (e.g. laptops) are junk given the repair videos on Youtube.

    3) Consumer junk is not equivalent to SAMs, jet engines and control systems of military products. People are technologically
    illiterate.

    4) Where it counts, China has not exhibited domestic innovation and ability to deliver. Take the Su-27 jet engines that China
    has been reverse-engineering for about 25 years. You have no evidence that Chinese jet engines are at the same level or better
    than those of Russia.

    5) Dirty advertising is proof that Chinese military products are inferior to Russian ones. Talking about price reflecting quality
    is pure nonsense. Good luck getting "what you paid for". The recent crop of BMW and Porsche engines demonstrate that
    high price does not imply high quality and reliability.
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    Post  kvs on Wed May 20, 2020 11:07 am

    BTW, to reply to the expected pooh-pooing. If reverse engineering of Soviet and Russian tech was a walk in the park, then
    the yanquis would have already developed a replacement for the RD-180. They have been trying since the 1990s and still have
    not delivered. But they sure talk a lot about a replacement being just around the corner.

    Yet somehow China is just magically able to bootstrap its military hardware from zero with no R&D and lots of trash talk
    about Russian tech. They really should STFU.

    miketheterrible
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    Post  miketheterrible on Wed May 20, 2020 11:33 am

    JohninMK wrote:
    miketheterrible wrote:No, you can't get high quality from China. Medium quality at best.  Even great wall cars which were supposed to be more quality brand of China has piss poor records in quality in Russia. Far below Lada automobiles.  Hence why Lada and Kia are still best sellers in Russia and not Chinese automobiles.

    It's all a joke.

    If you don't regard as a minimum the best Chinese made mobile phones as the highest quality there is something seriously wrong with your judgement.

    I would say something but it seems KVS said it all for me.

    And let me tell you, a circuit board with a processor created elsewhere and a display created elsewhere, assembling them, isn't a great feat.  Only reason why no one else does it because people want cheap shit and nothing is cheaper than China currently. I mean, people can wish for Foxconn to open a plant in their yard but lets be real, I dont. Cause I dont want to know that people in my area are jumping out the windows to their deaths due to poor working conditions and lack of a labour code.
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    Post  Isos on Wed May 20, 2020 3:09 pm

    JohninMK wrote:
    miketheterrible wrote:No, you can't get high quality from China. Medium quality at best.  Even great wall cars which were supposed to be more quality brand of China has piss poor records in quality in Russia. Far below Lada automobiles.  Hence why Lada and Kia are still best sellers in Russia and not Chinese automobiles.

    It's all a joke.

    If you don't regard as a minimum the best Chinese made mobile phones as the highest quality there is something seriously wrong with your judgement.

    Every thechnologyin their Huawei was created by Samsung or Apple. They are totally dependant on google/android. They offer nothing more despit investing so much in r&d.

    A wrong assumption made by many is that the one that copies will "improve" the copied item and make it a better item. That's wrong. Specially with such advanced technology as electronics. Why is it wrong ? Because they don't "copy" it totally. It's impossible. A bit like looking a video of a top chief making a perfect cake and trying to copy him. If 90% of the time you only cook eggs, you won't be able to do as good as the chief.

    Huawei is successfull only because it was cheap but it certainly doesn't lead anything. Now they have reached the level of Apple they will be hit by a new "Huawei" company producig the same phone for half cheaper.
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    Post  JohninMK on Wed May 20, 2020 7:18 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:

    I would say something but it seems KVS said it all for me.

    I don't know what you guys life experiences are. All I will say is that me and two mates started a very advanced modem design company in 1986 and were the first in the World to make a V32 modem with all our own code on the then new M56000 DSP. I have been in the data communications hardware business ever since with one of our products made in China. I stand by my comment, in the right circumstances the Chinese make stunning products.

    As to Huawei, who owns most of the key patents on 5G and please tell who they copied them from?

    Garry, get this into Talking Bollocks please.
    miketheterrible
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    Post  miketheterrible on Thu May 21, 2020 12:32 am

    The talking bollocks is you. You assume because they managed to be half decent at mass producing some crap doesn't mean the failure rate isn't high in their production chain.

    My experience is having to support the shit they make for industrial production and let me tell you, it's shit. German shit isn't much better though.
    kvs
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    Post  kvs on Thu May 21, 2020 1:08 am

    In our research group we got a low latency high bandwidth cluster interconnect switch. This is an expensive performance
    part made by one of the leaders in the field and not a consumer item. The power supply failed a few hours after it was powered
    up. We had to get the whole unit swapped. It was made in China.

    Where all the love for Chinese production comes from is hard to understand. Dismissing the empirical evidence is not a reasonable
    viewpoint.

    Again, from personal experience, there are a lot of Chinese scientists who should have gone into other careers. The cultural
    pressure to get a science degree generates a lot of low skill scientists who crowd out the better ones. Another pathology in
    China is that they have the master professor boss paradigm. This is a very outdated and feudal concept where some pasha
    professor is surrounded by minions doing his bidding. No, it is nothing like the western (and Russian to some extent) model where
    the prof is a supervisor and not a master with serfs. So the master prof has a herd of researchers that are used to generate a large
    number of research papers where the real contribution of the prof is marginal at best and the real contributors often do not
    even get their name on the paper. In the western system the graduate students and postdocs can actually write first-author
    papers even if they are supervised by a bigger name and he/she gives them valuable input.

    But the focus should be on the trash talking by Chinese propaganda mouthpieces about the inferiority of Russian military equipment.
    I demand to see proof and not "proof by assertion" by hacks. Until such time, no benefit of the doubt and plausibility arguments
    have any value.
    miketheterrible
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    Post  miketheterrible on Thu May 21, 2020 2:10 am

    Yes. We aren't saying Chinese are dumb and unable to perform well. We are simply saying with the flood of cheap tech, cheap labor and cheap scientists, it really stifles development by the real good scientists and developers in China. The major companies in China aren't interested in high quality as it becomes too expensive to make. Like Germany and their industrial production. They like to think it is still high tech and quality but in reality it isn't and it survives off of people's piss poor memory of German quality. So really, I give China credit since they can make a lot of decent stuff. But reverse engineering crap doesn't make it good either just because a company like Huawei is able to make 5G gear

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