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    Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov #2

    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Mon Jun 01, 2020 12:42 pm

    So the new thread is here:

    https://www.russiadefence.net/t8089-temporary-naval-ships-thread_new-title-soon

    If you go to the link and post replies there to suggest what subject you might like and which section would be relevant.

    For instance how about a discussion thread about how Italy saved Americas ass regarding frigate design, or something different.

    No posts or ideas for a couple of days and I will just attach it to the talking bollocks thread.

    Regards
    GarryB
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Mon Jun 01, 2020 1:22 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    Good news and unsurprising given that Gorshkov was laid down in 2006. This represents the typical evolutionary improvement of technologies (plus design improvements made during the protracted commissioning of Gorshkov), those systems that will be rolled out on the serial builds (Golovko onwards?) are being retrospectively applied to Gorshkov and maybe Kasanatov.

    So essentially they are going to upgrade the electronics and systems... which would be the sort of thing you would do just before you start putting it in to serial production...
    yeah, and now they have several years of investment and experience making electronics and sensors for ships, aircrafts and army vehicles that are on par with the best western ones...time to put those lessons to fruition...

    It would be interesting to understand if at later point (life midlife upgrade, would it be possible to fit a 3rd UKSK module like it is from 5th ship onwards...

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    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Mon Jun 01, 2020 1:26 pm

    Rodion_Romanovic wrote:
    GarryB wrote:
    Good news and unsurprising given that Gorshkov was laid down in 2006. This represents the typical evolutionary improvement of technologies (plus design improvements made during the protracted commissioning of Gorshkov), those systems that will be rolled out on the serial builds (Golovko onwards?) are being retrospectively applied to Gorshkov and maybe Kasanatov.

    So essentially they are going to upgrade the electronics and systems... which would be the sort of thing you would do just before you start putting it in to serial production...
    yeah, and now they have several years of investment and experience making electronics and sensors for ships, aircrafts and army vehicles that are on par with the best western ones...time to put those lessons to fruition...

    It would be interesting to understand if at later point (life midlife upgrade, would it be possible to fit a 3rd UKSK module like it is from 5th ship onwards...


    In Russian electronics/systems before 2006 (design was before right?) and 2021-22 is a n era. Good that this is going to be new stuff putting on pair with newest western designs.
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    Post  dino00 on Thu Jun 04, 2020 10:59 pm

    3 newest frigates of project 22350 will go to the Pacific Fleet. The first Far Eastern registration will be "Admiral Amelko." The emergence of universal warships will allow deploying one of the most powerful and modern strike groups in the region.

    In total, it is planned to release eight ships of the "admiral" series, as it is called by sailors. 3 ships will receive the Pacific and Northern Fleets, two - the Black Sea.

    Full Article
    https://iz.ru/1019812/aleksei-ramm-roman-kretcul-bogdan-stepovoi/prikaz-admiralam-fregaty-s-tcirkonami-usiliat-tikhookeanskii-flot
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    Post  flamming_python on Fri Jun 05, 2020 11:38 am

    dino00 wrote:3 newest frigates of project 22350 will go to the Pacific Fleet. The first Far Eastern registration will be "Admiral Amelko." The emergence of universal warships will allow deploying one of the most powerful and modern strike groups in the region.

    In total, it is planned to release eight ships of the "admiral" series, as it is called by sailors. 3 ships will receive the Pacific and Northern Fleets, two - the Black Sea.

    Full Article
    https://iz.ru/1019812/aleksei-ramm-roman-kretcul-bogdan-stepovoi/prikaz-admiralam-fregaty-s-tcirkonami-usiliat-tikhookeanskii-flot

    In before PapaDragon comes in and says that the Russian Navy is a joke, Russia is a joke and there needs to be at least 80 of the Admiral Gorshkov class
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    Post  George1 on Fri Jun 05, 2020 11:48 am

    flamming_python wrote:
    dino00 wrote:3 newest frigates of project 22350 will go to the Pacific Fleet. The first Far Eastern registration will be "Admiral Amelko." The emergence of universal warships will allow deploying one of the most powerful and modern strike groups in the region.

    In total, it is planned to release eight ships of the "admiral" series, as it is called by sailors. 3 ships will receive the Pacific and Northern Fleets, two - the Black Sea.

    Full Article
    https://iz.ru/1019812/aleksei-ramm-roman-kretcul-bogdan-stepovoi/prikaz-admiralam-fregaty-s-tcirkonami-usiliat-tikhookeanskii-flot

    In before PapaDragon comes in and says that the Russian Navy is a joke, Russia is a joke and there needs to be at least 80 of the Admiral Gorshkov class

    or even 40 would be great
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    Post  PapaDragon on Fri Jun 05, 2020 12:45 pm

    flamming_python wrote:In before PapaDragon comes in and says that the Russian Navy is a joke, Russia is a joke and there needs to be at least 80 of the Admiral Gorshkov class

    PapaDragon never said there needs to be 80 of the Admiral Gorshkov class

    PapaDragon did say that Russia should build Gorshkov class in more than one location simultaneously like they do with Karakurt and Steregushi



    George1 wrote:or even 40 would be great

    Let's not get ahead of ourselves here

    For starters they should complete the 15 they originally planned because these 8 they have in the pipeline are barely enough to replace old Soviet stuff that's on it's way out

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    Post  AlfaT8 on Fri Jun 05, 2020 3:02 pm

    flamming_python wrote:In before PapaDragon comes in and says that the Russian Navy is a joke, Russia is a joke and there needs to be at least 80 of the Admiral Gorshkov class

    Yea, i don't think i ever heard PD go down that road.

    Just the need to produce the thing in more than "1" Shipyard.


    George1 wrote:or even 40 would be great

    Let's not get ahead of ourselves here

    For starters they should complete the 15 they originally planned because these 8 they have in the pipeline are barely enough to replace old Soviet stuff that's on it's way out


    Meh, Russia always seems to have a problem getting it's ship production into the double digits.

    Ideally, they should get 30~40 Gorshkovs, 10~20 Super Gorshkovs and 3~5 Liders.
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    Post  flamming_python on Sat Jun 06, 2020 12:01 am

    OK well

    Let's just wait instead then for the obligatory wall of text from Vann7 about the Moon landing conspiracy and COVID-19
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    Post  George1 on Sat Jun 06, 2020 12:03 am

    flamming_python wrote:OK well

    Let's just wait instead then for the obligatory wall of text from Vann7 about the Moon landing conspiracy and COVID-19

    and the morons Very Happy
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    Post  ultimatewarrior on Sat Jun 06, 2020 5:30 am

    Hopefully the second Admiral Gorshkov class frigate can be commissioned this year. Fingers crossed.
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    Post  GarryB on Sat Jun 06, 2020 10:38 am

    In before PapaDragon comes in and says that the Russian Navy is a joke, Russia is a joke and there needs to be at least 80 of the Admiral Gorshkov class

    They are frigates... so really not for use away from Russian shores much so 24-36 maybe split across the fleets... they would be OK in the Baltic Sea and Med...

    Ideally, they should get 30~40 Gorshkovs, 10~20 Super Gorshkovs and 3~5 Liders.

    24-36 Frigates, 18-24 Destroyers, and 4 to 8 Cruisers... but the Destroyers will be bigger and heavier than the cold war destroyers they replace and the Cruisers will be rather lighter than the cold war cruisers they replace...
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    Post  Isos on Sat Jun 06, 2020 10:50 am

    They have 3-4 fleets that can operates them. So any number will be divided by 4 and the fleets can't really help each other in war time. That's why they can't have few of them.

    15 is the minimal number. That equal to 5 ship for pacific and northern fleets and another 5 for the baltic and black sea.
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    Post  ultimatewarrior on Sat Jun 06, 2020 7:15 pm

    I would be satisfied if the second Admiral Gorshkov class frigate can be commissioned this year. For decades Russian navy only has 1 Admiral Gorshkov class frigate which is the first ship called Admrial Gorshkov.
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    Post  dino00 on Sat Jun 06, 2020 8:00 pm

    ultimatewarrior wrote:I would be satisfied if the second Admiral Gorshkov class frigate can be commissioned this year. For decades Russian navy only has 1 Admiral Gorshkov class frigate which is the first ship called Admrial Gorshkov.
    Very Happy
    Frigate "Admiral of the Fleet Kasatonov" completed state tests

    The first serial frigate" Admiral of the Navy Kasatonov "of project 22350, having completed the marine part of state tests, returned to the Severnaya Verf. During June, the ship will undergo an audit, after which it will be transferred to the Navy

    https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/8667471

    Ask more, it's working Cool
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    Post  ultimatewarrior on Sat Jun 06, 2020 8:14 pm

    dino00 wrote:
    ultimatewarrior wrote:I would be satisfied if the second Admiral Gorshkov class frigate can be commissioned this year. For decades Russian navy only has 1 Admiral Gorshkov class frigate which is the first ship called Admrial Gorshkov.
    Very Happy
    Frigate "Admiral of the Fleet Kasatonov" completed state tests

    The first serial frigate" Admiral of the Navy Kasatonov "of project 22350, having completed the marine part of state tests, returned to the Severnaya Verf. During June, the ship will undergo an audit, after which it will be transferred to the Navy

    https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/8667471

    Ask more, it's working Cool

    It's been doing sea trials for years and never commissioned.
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    Post  mnztr on Sun Jun 07, 2020 1:47 am


    I think the slow build of the Gorshkov class is due to several factors, of course the engine issue was the biggest one, but the complex system and also the advent of new generation missiles changes the needs. Warships are getting smaller as missiles get more deadly. Battleships died because of aircraft but also because even the most heavily armoured battleship could not survive more then a few direct hits from primary guns. What warship could be operational after a hit by a single Tsirkon? I would say at the VERY best it can limp home with half its compliment killed or injured and probably be scrapped. So small deadly ships with these weapons are now becoming a better bet. Of course sea handing is an issue. I think radar power will be solved or has been.. Drones will provide aviation. And ...eventually subersible hulls will be common.


    Isos wrote:They have 3-4 fleets that can operates them. So any number will be divided by 4 and the fleets can't really help each other in war time. That's why they can't have few of them.

    15 is the minimal number. That equal to 5 ship for pacific and northern fleets and another 5 for the baltic and black sea.
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    Post  AJ-47 on Sun Jun 07, 2020 2:14 am

    RUSSIA Navy Admiral Kasatonov frigate Project 22350 test fires anti torpedo during acceptance trials
    June News 2020 Navy Naval Maritime Defense Industry

    Posted On Friday, 05 June 2020 04:45
    The Admiral Kasatonov frigate of project 22350 fired an anti-torpedo at the final stage of acceptance trials, the Russian Defense Ministry said, on June 4, 2020.  Information released by TASS Russian press agency.

    Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov #2 - Page 26 Russia34
    Russian Navy Admiral Kasatonov frigate of project 22350.

    “The crew and industry representatives trained defense by engaging an anti-torpedo from Paket antisubmarine complex in the Baltic Sea,” it said. The Alexin small antisubmarine ship attacked the frigate with a training torpedo. The Admiral Kasatonov repelled the attack.

    Link for the Article
    https://www.navyrecognition.com/index.php/news/defence-news/2020/june/8539-russian-navy-admiral-kasatonov-frigate-project-22350-anti-torpedo.html
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    Post  GarryB on Sun Jun 07, 2020 7:07 am

    They have 3-4 fleets that can operates them. So any number will be divided by 4 and the fleets can't really help each other in war time. That's why they can't have few of them.

    15 is the minimal number. That equal to 5 ship for pacific and northern fleets and another 5 for the baltic and black sea.

    There is the issue of five distinct fleets that could use ships so any talk of x number of ships needed needs to take into account that not all the fleets require all the types of ships... I am sure you would agree a cruiser on the Caspian sea is a bit of overkill...

    So for four fleets then any or all of the ships could be considered, but honestly the Northern Fleet and the Pacific Fleet will have Cruisers and aircraft carriers and helicopter carriers and the Baltic and Black Sea fleet will have smaller vessels most likely.

    The point is that we are talking essentially about one type of Frigate and one type of Destroyer and one type of Cruiser, but in terms of capability it is easier to make one all purpose multirole cruiser because there is room to fit everything you might want or need, while smaller ships struggle to fit in a variety of weapons and sensors... on a corvette it is even more difficult.

    Things like multipurpose weapons like large calibre guns and of course vertical launch unified missile launchers for cruise missiles (UKSK) and for SAMs (Redut and Shtil-1 and naval TOR) makes things easier but for a small ship like a corvette the ability to fit decent radar and sonar equipment becomes harder.

    I would suggest that while all 5 fleets could use Corvettes only four would need Frigates and Destroyers and probably two would need Cruisers and Carriers...

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    Post  The-thing-next-door on Sun Jun 07, 2020 10:43 am

    GarryB wrote: Cruisers will be rather lighter than the cold war cruisers they replace...

    That is a rather silly assumption to make. What would the point of making a slightly better destroyer class and calling it a cruiser, to pretend you navy is greater than it actually is?.

    Future missile cruisers will likely be the most versatile ships in the Russian navy, possibly using having a few larger VLS tubes to allow for the use of navalized IRBMs and taller masts with the best radars available.

    They already have a radar that can see over the horizon, mounting that on a missile cruisers would potentially allow for engaging enemy ships at the maximum range of missiles.
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    Post  GarryB on Sun Jun 07, 2020 1:22 pm

    That is a rather silly assumption to make. What would the point of making a slightly better destroyer class and calling it a cruiser, to pretend you navy is greater than it actually is?.

    There is no point in making some super cruiser that is 30K ton and has 1,000 tubes for vertical launch missiles... not only is it not very practical.... it would be too expensive to keep those tubes full all the time.

    Making a cruiser that has much more firepower than a Kirov but weighs 18-20K ton makes more sense... make it fully nuclear powered so no speed or range limits and a much more compact propulsion system and then use the space efficiently... modern AESA arrays and EO systems and Sonar arrays in the nose and the sides and to be dragged behind in a variable depth sonar array... lots of USUK-M tubes and a nice big gun mount and space for 3-4 helicopters and drones.

    The unification of UKSK launchers and Redut should allow flexibility though in shallow areas of the hull where S-300 and S-400 missiles wont fit you could load S-350 and TOR-M3 type missiles in vertical tubes as well... in no sense would it be considered under armed and of course some sort of crane system that would allow it to reload its vertical launch tubes and guns while under way would mean it can maintain its performance even in the unlikely event of having to attack a few countries...

    Future missile cruisers will likely be the most versatile ships in the Russian navy, possibly using having a few larger VLS tubes to allow for the use of navalized IRBMs and taller masts with the best radars available.

    Even the most crappiest Airship on a 2km tether with fibre optic cables and power lines so the airship can scan and share information with the ship it is operating above without needing a datalink broadcast is better than the tallest ship mast... just the antenna size alone you could fit in an airship means no place to hide for enemy aerial targets even smaller than insect size because there are not that many insects flying over sea water... it would just be birds...

    They already have a radar that can see over the horizon, mounting that on a missile cruisers would potentially allow for engaging enemy ships at the maximum range of missiles.

    The radars the cruisers will carry just to use the S-500 will likely have enough range to make you happy... and to shoot down satellites in orbit...
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    Post  mnztr on Sun Jun 07, 2020 5:43 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    They have 3-4 fleets that can operates them. So any number will be divided by 4 and the fleets can't really help each other in war time. That's why they can't have few of them.

    15 is the minimal number. That equal to 5 ship for pacific and northern fleets and another 5 for the baltic and black sea.

    There is the issue of five distinct fleets that could use ships so any talk of x number of ships needed needs to take into account that not all the fleets require all the types of ships... I am sure you would agree a cruiser on the Caspian sea is a bit of overkill...


    I would agree I think Russia is really embracing the concept of "distributed lethality" with even Corvettes able to strike from over 1000KM away. This is really transfromational. Look at the HUGE missiles Russian cruisers used to have, and compare with Kaliber. One thing I think would be a GREAT idea is to perhaps put SSBNs in the Caspian sea, they would be 100% invulnerable, last forever in the reduced salinity, and be impossible to target in any first strike. To me a much better option then Status 6, but how you build and get them launched there is another issue altogether...They can even run on the surface a lot of the time making life nice for the crews. They can be relatively low tech and won't even have to be that quiet.
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    Post  owais.usmani on Sun Jun 07, 2020 6:39 pm

    mnztr wrote: One thing I think would be a GREAT idea is to perhaps put SSBNs in the Caspian sea, they would be 100% invulnerable, last forever in the reduced salinity, and be impossible to target in any first strike. To me a much better option then Status 6, but how you build and get them launched there is another issue altogether...They can even run on the surface a lot of the time making life nice for the crews. They can be relatively low tech and won't even have to be that quiet.

    I always used to think why Russia / Soviet Union never went down this path. They even have giant rivers in Siberia (Lena, Ob, Yenisey) where they can put the boomers and their SLBMs. Completely invulnerable to any first strike and a guaranteed second strike capability.
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    Post  mnztr on Sun Jun 07, 2020 6:46 pm

    I was reading about canals to the Caspian. One of them can handle a Borie class, but it would have to be unloaded to the point of the draft being less then 4m which I am not sure is possible. But perhaps they can add some floats to get it through
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    Post  GarryB on Mon Jun 08, 2020 8:00 am

    Well with the INF treaty gone their cheapest option would be to build tens of thousands of nuclear powered unlimited range cruise missiles... they can have them deep in the Ural mountains all well protected and hidden and when things happen they can be launched... newer models with nuclear scramjet engines could fly high and fast for a decade if need be... and then boom.

    Put dirty little fission bombs in them... perhaps a dozen in each that can be dropped over the terrain they fly over....

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