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    Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov #2

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    mnztr

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    Post  mnztr on Thu Apr 16, 2020 8:52 pm

    It will be interesting to watch the trial of this ship. I suspect they have not fully ramped up production of the engines or ships yet until this is fully sorted. I really see no reason why Russia cannot build these much, much faster.
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    Post  GarryB on Fri Apr 17, 2020 1:00 pm

    These engines will have been tested, but actually putting them in to a real ship with a real transmission and putting them to normal use will be a test in itself.

    This is not their first engine... they know what they are doing, but even then there are always lessons to learn and they could create improvements to design and manufacturing processes...

    You can create scale models and computer models all you want but nothing tests a design like a full sized example and it is often only then when you realise it will work or it wont... and by then you have spent a lot of money... if it isn't working the last thing you want is to already have it in mass production with four new hulls hitting the water when serious changes need to be made to the design.
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    Post  mnztr on Tue Apr 28, 2020 6:09 am

    Well yes you can test all you want until the ship is in operation all kinds of bugs come out. Type 45 is an example of this. The US littoral ship and Zumwalt were such a mess they plan on building Burkes until who knows when.
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Tue Apr 28, 2020 8:06 am

    mnztr wrote:Well yes you can test all you want until the ship is in operation all kinds of bugs come out. Type 45 is an example of this. The US littoral ship and Zumwalt were such a mess they plan on building Burkes until who knows when.
    I am not that sure that all the proper tests were made for those ships. E.g. the type 45 was the one that had problem with operation in very warm temperatures. In that case it is not clear to me (I have not read the reports on the issue) if it was

    1) a problem of system integration between propulsion systems and ship systems,

    2) if they designed and built the ship and the engines incorrectly (e.g. the specifications of ship and engine were wrote correctly, but they failed in verifying that the design corresponded to those specs and requirements)

    In this case the mistake would be in the verification phase.


    or maybe
    3) the specifications were wrong (that means that the ship and the engines were built according to the written requirements, but that the requirements were wrong and (as an example) did not include all the operating conditions of the ship. In this last case it would be a validation error (the requirements were not validated correctly).

    Note
    Validation = are we building the right thing?
    Verification = are we building the thing right?

    Some of the tests are made with components or systems, for others you need the whole ship, but of course you cannot just commission the ship and deliver it to the main customer for full operations until all tests are performed. Some things may need to be fixed later, but cutting short the tests and saying that you will sort out the bugs later is idiotic and criminal.

    We can imagine that in case of Gorshkov class, later ships in the series will need less testing (unless they change again the design). However it is possible that the third ship will have also a significant test program because it is the first one with fully Russian propulsion.
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    Post  mnztr on Tue Apr 28, 2020 3:43 pm

    As you know the first one had a very protracted testing period. Same with the Ford class carrier. Zumwalts are essential clean sheets and every type 45 will have to go in for major rework. They miscalculated power loads and when they are exceeded the ship just shuts down... !! (probably fixed with SW to limit full power to the elec drive.). The missile system of a British destroyer actually crashed while they were under attack and by the time it rebooted it was too late. A new propulsion system will need to be tested and my feeling is this one was somewhat rushed for obvious reasons, but you can bet many Ukranian engineers are now working at Russian companies on these projects. The thing is, these are very complex machines and there is no software that can predict every element of the design today. Plus many systems are developed separately and THEN integrated. When that process happens all sorts of design goals start to meet reality. Power and heat budgets, software code that was poorly developed, simple mistakes etc etc.
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    Post  GarryB on Wed Apr 29, 2020 3:24 am

    In aircraft and land vehicle engines they were working towards families of engines that can be scaled up or down to suit different roles and different weight classes of vehicles/platforms...

    They have not really had time to create new engines from scratch, which is a shame because ideally that would be the best solution going forward, but it would take too much time.
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    Post  PapaDragon on Fri May 01, 2020 2:12 pm


    Source: work on the "Super-Gorshkov" continues

    https://flotprom.ru/2020/%D0%9E%D1%81%D0%BA6/

    The Northern Design Bureau did not stop work on the development of frigates of project 22350M. Information about the cancellation of plans to create a ship, circulated by a number of media outlets, is untrue. About this Mil.Press FlotProm told a senior naval source...
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    Post  ultimatewarrior on Fri May 01, 2020 4:04 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Source: work on the "Super-Gorshkov" continues

    https://flotprom.ru/2020/%D0%9E%D1%81%D0%BA6/

    The Northern Design Bureau did not stop work on the development of frigates of project 22350M. Information about the cancellation of plans to create a ship, circulated by a number of media outlets, is untrue. About this Mil.Press FlotProm told a senior naval source...

    It's gonna take at least 10 years considering how slow Russians are these days. My opinion Super Gorshkov is something like Type 052D in terms of size. About 7500 tons.
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Fri May 01, 2020 5:54 pm

    ultimatewarrior wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:
    Source: work on the "Super-Gorshkov" continues

    https://flotprom.ru/2020/%D0%9E%D1%81%D0%BA6/

    The Northern Design Bureau did not stop work on the development of frigates of project 22350M. Information about the cancellation of plans to create a ship, circulated by a number of media outlets, is untrue. About this Mil.Press FlotProm told a senior naval source...

    It's gonna take at least 10 years considering how slow Russians are these days. My opinion Super Gorshkov is something like Type 052D in terms of size. About 7500 tons.

    The creators stated a Super Gorsh will be about 7k (Light Displacement).
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    Post  ultimatewarrior on Fri May 01, 2020 5:58 pm

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:
    ultimatewarrior wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:
    Source: work on the "Super-Gorshkov" continues

    https://flotprom.ru/2020/%D0%9E%D1%81%D0%BA6/

    The Northern Design Bureau did not stop work on the development of frigates of project 22350M. Information about the cancellation of plans to create a ship, circulated by a number of media outlets, is untrue. About this Mil.Press FlotProm told a senior naval source...

    It's gonna take at least 10 years considering how slow Russians are these days. My opinion Super Gorshkov is something like Type 052D in terms of size. About 7500 tons.

    The creators stated a Super Gorsh will be about 7k (Light Displacement).

    Should be about 7000 tons in line with modern European heavy frigates.
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Fri May 01, 2020 6:48 pm

    Yeah but modern european frigates are very low armed for their size.

    22350M will also be better armed than the Chinese 052D.
    In addition to gun and torpedoes, the 052D has 64 VLS, while the 22350M will have at least 80 VLS: 48 UKSK VLS and at least 32 (the same number as in base 22350) Redut VLS, if not more.

    Anyway, I agree on the size similar to 052D, that is by the way almost the same size as the Udaloy class (Project 1155 Fregat), that is 163 m long, and with a full load displacement of about 7500 tons (normal displacement around 6900 tons).

    Udaloy class are among the most beautiful among ships in their size and have a very good hull shape and navigation characteristics. I am sure that the 22350M will also be a beautiful ship with excellent idrodynamic characteristics.

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    Post  PapaDragon on Fri May 01, 2020 7:10 pm

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:...The creators stated a Super Gorsh will be about 7k (Light Displacement).

    Yup

    That's 50% more than the original Gorshkov and it fits with 48 UKSK tubes and extra month endurance

    Pretty much what they announced back when project started
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    Post  ultimatewarrior on Fri May 01, 2020 8:52 pm

    Rodion_Romanovic wrote:Yeah but modern european frigates are very low armed for their size.

    22350M will also be better armed than the Chinese 052D.
    In addition to gun and torpedoes, the 052D has 64 VLS, while the 22350M will have at least 80 VLS: 48 UKSK VLS and at least 32 (the same number as in base 22350) Redut VLS, if not more.

    Anyway, I agree on the size similar to 052D, that is by the way almost the same size as the Udaloy class (Project 1155 Fregat), that is 163 m long, and with a full load displacement of about 7500 tons (normal displacement around 6900 tons).

    Udaloy class are among the most beautiful among ships in their size and have a very good hull shape and navigation characteristics. I am sure that the 22350M will also be a beautiful ship with excellent idrodynamic characteristics.


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    Post  owais.usmani on Fri May 01, 2020 10:34 pm

    https://flotprom.ru/2020/%D0%9E%D0%B1%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%BD%D0%BA%D0%B0100/

    The Russian Navy will receive three series of frigates created on the basis of the ships of the project 22350. This was reported to Mil.Press FlotProm by an informed source in the industry.

    This is the first series of four frigates of the Admiral Gorshkov type with 16 vertical launch units (UVP), the second series based on project 22350 with 24 UVP (two were laid in 2019, two more are planned to be laid in the coming months), and finally about several frigates of project 22350M with an increased displacement of up to 8,000 tons with 48 CWP .

    Thus, the number of the first two series of ships of the project 22350 will be eight units.


    It is this figure (from 8 to 10 ships), according to the commander-in-chief of the Navy, Admiral Nikolai Evmenov, that is considered the lower threshold for serial production of modern corvettes and frigates. So he answered the question of the journalist Mil.Press FlotProm about the needs of the fleet.

    It is planned to build another two to four ships according to project 22350M: this series, the third in a row, according to the source of the publication, will be smaller. The completion of the construction of all 12 frigates based on project 22350 is planned for the beginning-mid-2030s.
    In fact, frigates are being upgraded from hull to hull, this process is ongoing, one of the designers told Mil.Press FlotProm earlier. Ships of the Admiral Gorshkov type have a certain modernization reserve, which will allow them to meet the requirements of the fleet in the next one and a half decades.
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    Post  PapaDragon on Fri May 01, 2020 11:00 pm


    So the overall number of new large ships over next several decades will be limited to 12?

    They really are aiming for small navy

    Why are they even bothering with several variants when there will only build dozen of them in total? It's a waste of time, slightly different hulls in the small series of ships don't change anything

    And worst of all not even all ships are identical and every single one will be one-off specimen with separate maintenance requirements



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    Post  Isos on Fri May 01, 2020 11:05 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    So the overall number of new large ships over next several decades will be 12?

    They really are aiming for small navy

    Why are they even bothering with several variants when there will only build dozen of them in total? It's a waste of time, slightly different hulls in the small series of ships don't change anything


    This is all BS. Two weeks ago they said no lider no Gorsgkov M and now 4 gorshkov m. Add to that that most of their orders come from nowhere like the last Boreis.

    If they have money and construction speeds up they will order more to give shipyards work.
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    Post  GarryB on Sat May 02, 2020 5:23 am

    Well first of all great... surprise surprise... the sky is not falling.

    Second, these are interesting ships but they are still only Frigates and increased size Frigates... the MVD or FSB might want some... they were the main operator of the Krivak class Frigates during the Cold War, but the Russia Navy needs bigger longer ranged longer endurance ships.

    Only planning to make 12 means they are getting close to producing bigger ships to replace existing Cold War Destroyer designs...
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    Post  Big_Gazza on Sat May 02, 2020 6:41 am

    PapaDragon wrote:
    And worst of all not even all ships are identical and every single one will be one-off specimen with separate maintenance requirements

    Nah, that's just nonsense you're pulling from your arse. You seem to wanna hang yer hat on minor design changes introduced after the prolonged gestation of the lead ship (under sanction and >1/2 decade of supply chain disruptions) and extrapolate that over the next 15 years? ppffftt.. That's a new low for you Papaeehnie. tongue
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    Post  PapaDragon on Sat May 02, 2020 8:23 am

    Big_Gazza wrote:...Nah, that's just nonsense you're pulling from your arse. You seem to wanna hang yer hat on minor design changes introduced after the prolonged gestation of the lead ship (under sanction and >1/2 decade of supply chain disruptions) and extrapolate that over the next 15 years? ppffftt.. That's a new low for you Papaeehnie. tongue

    I ain't extrapolating anything, it's in the article, the morons are actually bragging about it


    GarryB wrote:...Only planning to make 12 means they are getting close to producing bigger ships to replace existing Cold War Destroyer designs...

    They are barely producing these

    And how many decades will bigger ones take this time?

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    Post  Arrow on Sat May 02, 2020 9:32 am

    nyway, I agree on the size similar to 052D, t wrote:

    already 22350 modernized with 24 VLS with anti-ship missiles has a firepower similar to the Type 052D destroyer. If the 22350 is armed with 3M22 missiles, the firepower of the Russian frigate will not even be greater than the Chinese destroyer. Russian frigates are better armed and have better anti-aircraft defense. Very Happy
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Sat May 02, 2020 9:36 am

    A Super Grosh shouldn't be that much different in maintenance tho, it's the same ship just bigger is all. Unless they are strapping new things into the hull but from what I understand it's the same ship with a bit more weapon systems that exist on the first versions.
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    Post  flamming_python on Sat May 02, 2020 10:42 am

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:A Super Grosh shouldn't be that much different in maintenance tho, it's the same ship just bigger is all. Unless they are strapping new things into the hull but from what I understand it's the same ship with a bit more weapon systems that exist on the first versions.

    Pretty much

    In fact it can be counted as the same class of ship as far as R&D, maintenance, series production goes.

    12 ships for now isn't bad. No-one says that they won't expand that later to 16 or 20.
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    Post  PapaDragon on Sat May 02, 2020 10:58 am

    flamming_python wrote:
    SeigSoloyvov wrote:A Super Grosh shouldn't be that much different in maintenance tho, it's the same ship just bigger is all. Unless they are strapping new things into the hull but from what I understand it's the same ship with a bit more weapon systems that exist on the first versions.

    Pretty much

    In fact it can be counted as the same class of ship as far as R&D, maintenance, series production goes.

    12 ships for now isn't bad. No-one says that they won't expand that later to 16 or 20.


    Well I hope it goes that way

    They should really spread these between two shipyards

    I honestly think that Russian Navy absolutely doesn't need anything larger than Gorshkov (even Super-Gorshkov is optional at best) but that only works if they have more than a dozen of them

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    Post  GarryB on Sat May 02, 2020 1:02 pm

    They are barely producing these

    And how many decades will bigger ones take this time?

    Come on... they have produce a multifunction frigate design from scratch and have taken the time to properly test and evaluate that design with the added complication of it being a multirole vessel which greatly complicates proper testing and evaluation.

    After testing they have decided they want a bigger version with greater fire power... would you prefer to do what the Soviets did and just start building 350 Subs because numbers are important and then after making a few dozen find there are serious problems with them that mean they need a brand new design... how would that be better?

    Do you think the Americans are clever making lots of F-35s even though they are fundamentally flawed and might not even be fit for purpose?

    Where is the urgency that demands they make as many as China does... except on the internet... they don't need to pump out 15 brand new destroyers... they already have Sovs and Udaloys and how often do they operate on long range missions abroad?

    It is not complex, I keep telling you over and over... you don't mass produce your product until you are sure the damn design is right and the only way you can be sure it is right is to test the damn thing. Who gives a shit if China has made 15 new Destroyers... the US and Japan have more to fear about that than Russia does... at the very worst case scenario that is a few minutes work by a backfire force and Foxhound force with Kh-32s and Kinzhals...

    Russia doesn't need destroyers to fight WWIII, they would have almost zero impact on the result anyway. These larger ships are about giving Russia a tangible presence around the world, and to secure sea lanes of transit and communications... nothing more.

    They wont be needing Destroyers till the Helicopter carriers are operational anyway...

    A Super Grosh shouldn't be that much different in maintenance tho, it's the same ship just bigger is all. Unless they are strapping new things into the hull but from what I understand it's the same ship with a bit more weapon systems that exist on the first versions.

    The whole point of getting the design right is so it can be scaled up by adding extra modules if needed... it is supposed to speed up design and production... it wont take 10 years... the point of the multirole modular design is to make it scalable but still compatible... during the Cold War a destroyer was too small to be fully multirole... it would have a primary armament and secondary defensive systems so it could defend itself from everything, but was optimised to attack one thing... for the Sov it was ships, for the Udaloy it was subs... they still all could fight ships and subs and aircraft, but only the very big ships had both anti ship and anti sub weapons and also air defence systems that could cover other ships nearby.

    It meant a Udaloy used Metel missiles and Sov used Sunburns, and of course the Kirovs had Granits and Metel... but with the new modular armament concepts they can use all the weapons... from corvette to cruiser and carrier.

    I honestly think that Russian Navy absolutely doesn't need anything larger than Gorshkov (even Super-Gorshkov is optional at best) but that only works if they have more than a dozen of them

    During the cold war they planned to build 41 Krivak class Frigates, but the modern Russian Navy is not going to be as big as the Soviet one, so I would doubt they need more than 18-24 of them... plus about 8-12 cruiser equivalents in the 18-20K ton weight range to operate with four helicopter carriers and two new CVNs... it would be a powerful and capable fleet that could operate anywhere...
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    Post  Arrow on Sat May 02, 2020 1:39 pm

    the modern Russian Navy is not going to be as big as the Soviet one, so I would doubt they need more than 18-24 of them... plus about 8-12 cruiser equivalents in the 18-20K ton weight range to operate with four helicopter carriers and two new CVNs... it would be a powerful and capable fleet that could operate anywhere... wrote:


    They won't build such a fleet even in 50 years.

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