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    2S38 Derivatsiya-PVO 57-mm AAA SPG

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    Post  Begome on Sun Oct 04, 2020 12:08 am

    So what's the latest on the Derivatsia's range?

    I've heard 12-16 km and an article talking about the AU-220M 57mm gun with 80 shots/min and 14.5 km range was linked but it doesn't say that the gun is for Derivatsia...another article from July this year says it only has 6 km range but 120 shots/min and that article is specifically about Derivatsia.
    I've also seen an image that seemed to suggest 16 km somewhere but I didn't save it and now I can't find it anymore...
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    Post  Isos on Sun Oct 04, 2020 12:33 am

    You can find a ballistic computer online. You need muzzle velocity and round weight. That will give you its fire zone.

    But what matters is effective range. The round need quite some time to reach longer ranges and the target can change its path evading your fire easily, specially if it knows you are targeting him. Modern jets have laser warning detectors. IMO effective range should be 8km against big targets. Against missiles the optics will have quite low range, maybe 2km max.

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    magnumcromagnon
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    Post  magnumcromagnon on Sun Oct 04, 2020 12:41 am

    The 12-16km range is for firing on land targets (with a ballistic trajectory) while the 8km range is for aerial targets.
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    Post  GarryB on Sun Oct 04, 2020 8:11 am

    The 6km might be the range of the 57mm grenade launcher and perhaps is ballistic range for the HE rounds.

    The 57mm gun will have different ranges for different targets...

    2S38 Derivatsiya-PVO 57-mm AAA SPG - Page 15 Djrbog10

    So 6km for targets on the ground and 8km for air targets for that setup.

    2S38 Derivatsiya-PVO 57-mm AAA SPG - Page 15 Servei10

    And this one that suggests the air burst and guided rounds can be used out to 15km against some targets...

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    Post  Begome on Sun Oct 04, 2020 3:34 pm

    Ah yes, thank you! That first image is what I was trying to find again...so it seems the 12 km are only for the Sprut's 125mm turret, not for 57mm.
    As to the second image: are you sure this is for the Derivatsia's gun? That image has some weird aspects, for example that "МФС"-type rounds (airburst rounds) are shown to be usable against BMP-type targets, which seems counter-intuitive as that should be exactly the kind of target which has good protection against such a round.
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    Post  lyle6 on Sun Oct 04, 2020 3:45 pm

    Begome wrote:Ah yes, thank you! That first image is what I was trying to find again...so it seems the 12 km are only for the Sprut's 125mm turret, not for 57mm.
    As to the second image: are you sure this is for the Derivatsia's gun? That image has some weird aspects, for example that "МФС"-type rounds (airburst rounds) are shown to be usable against BMP-type targets, which seems counter-intuitive as that should be exactly the kind of target which has good protection against such a round.
    Its a multipurpose round. Against armored targets the fuze would be set to delayed impact.

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    Post  Begome on Sun Oct 04, 2020 4:03 pm

    lyle6 wrote:Its a multipurpose round. Against armored targets the fuze would be set to delayed impact.
    Ah that makes sense...I was wondering why a "многофункциональный снаряд" (multi-purpose round) was considered an airburst round...it only is if the timer is set that way.
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    Post  GarryB on Mon Oct 05, 2020 4:11 am

    Smart fuses would detect the impact and penetration and set off the HE charge after the round has penetrated into a cavity as an APHE type round.

    The laser fuse will be in the tail and could be set off by laser beam anywhere along its flight path.

    It is very very clever... they already had cheap simple air burst 40mm grenades where a small charge explodes on impact and blows the grenade back up into the air and the main charge is detonated at 1.5-2m in the air, so instead of leg and lower body wounds from grenade fragments you get head and upper chest wounds which are far more lethal.

    The US solution was a laser range finder and ballistics computer on the grenade launcher with a fuse setting coil over the muzzle that set the grenade fuses as they fired. The problem was precision... the timers in the grenades themselves had to be very very precise to be of any use, which made each grenade rather expensive and the whole idea too expensive even for the US to use.

    The US solution however allowed flying targets to be engaged whereas the Russian system needs to impact the ground near the target.

    Using lasers to set off the grenades means it can be cheap and mass produced... and fitted to a 40mm grenade launcher means airburst rounds become affordable... a 40mm grenade has plenty of volume for rear mounted fuse and propellent, centrally mounted HE charge and sides and front mounted fragmentation... though I would think a forward mounted cup with ballbearings that are projected forward in a cone shaped pattern of fragments like a remotely fired shotgun would be best... with a known shape and pattern for the fragments you could automate the remote weapon station with the 40mm grenade launcher and have it direct grenades towards small drones which probably could not be detected outside the 2.5km range of the grenade launcher anyway.

    It could also be used against ground targets trying to infiltrate or attack the air defence systems and would compliment a 57mm gun battery.... put some Bulat and Kornet and Pine missiles on the vehicle with the 40mm grenade launcher and you have an awesome anti drone vehicle...
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    Post  magnumcromagnon on Wed Oct 14, 2020 10:51 pm

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    Post  magnumcromagnon on Sun Oct 18, 2020 11:55 pm

    So I got to thinking, I feel like the 57mm round is good for the medium weight vehicles and the upgraded 76.2mm cannon would be better for the Armata family vehicles. Better range, heavier payload, better penetration, and it'll also fair better for the AAA SPG role. The DVAP round for Koalitsiya could be scaled down for the 76.2mm caliber, and we could potentially get 40-45km range for land targets. Future improved AA rounds could get 20km range (something in the ball park of Pantsir-S1).
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    Post  lyle6 on Mon Oct 19, 2020 12:56 am

    magnumcromagnon wrote:So I got to thinking, I feel like the 57mm round is good for the medium weight vehicles and the upgraded 76.2mm cannon would be better for the Armata family vehicles. Better range, heavier payload, better penetration, and it'll also fair better for the AAA SPG role. The DVAP round for Koalitsiya could be scaled down for the 76.2mm caliber, and we could potentially get 40-45km range for land targets. Future improved AA rounds could get 20km range (something in the ball park of Pantsir-S1).

    The 57 mm calibre wasn't chosen out of the blue... It was the smallest calibre possible that can reliably threaten future NATO IFVs while still leaving enough scope for improvement that it can maintain the level of overmatch regardless of how much they upgrade said IFVs. There is no advantage to having an oversized gun for the task - its just extra weight and fewer stowed ammo (kills).

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    Post  kvs on Mon Oct 19, 2020 1:32 am

    More ammo is always better. There is never enough. I would expend the resources to develop better detonating heads for these 57 mm shells.
    Range is another problem for another discussion.

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    Post  GarryB on Mon Oct 19, 2020 6:54 am

    Bigger shells are easier to improve as there is more volume for stuff and even fins to steer etc.

    For instance... instead of a 76.2mm gun, you could use a 152mm artillery round with a base mounted laser receiver as used with Kornet and Bulat ATGMs with steering rear fins and the same laser receiver could be used to set off the main charge which could be 5kgs of HE and 35kgs of steel cubes and ball shrapnel.

    Using it out to 20km or so, you could use it against aircraft... and to pretty high altitudes as well.

    I would think the 100mm shell fired by the medium velocity rifled gun of the BMP-3 would be an interesting base model for an anti IFV round using an APFSDS round like the 57mm grenade round used but obviously with more propellent and higher pressure barrel, but most of the time it would fire a good HE round and missile.

    Having different weapons for different weights just expands the logistics burden and makes things more expensive, often without adding flexibility or capability existing weapons could not already achieve.

    A High pressure 120mm rifled gun using all the same shells and mortar bombs they use on their 120mm gun/mortar, but with an added APFSDS round as well could be interesting as a lower recoil round similar to the 125mm but for lighter vehicles and less well armoured targets...
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    Post  kvs on Tue Oct 20, 2020 7:07 am

    GarryB wrote:Bigger shells are easier to improve as there is more volume for stuff and even fins to steer etc.

    For instance... instead of a 76.2mm gun, you could use a 152mm artillery round with a base mounted laser receiver as used with Kornet and Bulat ATGMs with steering rear fins and the same laser receiver could be used to set off the main charge which could be 5kgs of HE and 35kgs of steel cubes and ball shrapnel.

    Using it out to 20km or so, you could use it against aircraft... and to pretty high altitudes as well.

    I would think the 100mm shell fired by the medium velocity rifled gun of the BMP-3 would be an interesting base model for an anti IFV round using an APFSDS round like the 57mm grenade round used but obviously with more propellent and higher pressure barrel, but most of the time it would fire a good HE round and missile.

    Having different weapons for different weights just expands the logistics burden and makes things more expensive, often without adding flexibility or capability existing weapons could not already achieve.

    A High pressure 120mm rifled gun using all the same shells and mortar bombs they use on their 120mm gun/mortar, but with an added APFSDS round as well could be interesting as a lower recoil round similar to the 125mm but for lighter vehicles and less well armoured targets...

    The total number of large shells that can be carried drops off rapidly with size since volume grows with a cubic power law. Thus, more resupply operations are needed
    and one does not have the luxury in war to schedule precise logistics.

    Also, the 57 mm shells are have a certain range of uses as do 152 mm shells and the 152 mm shells are not a universal replacement.

    And another issue is that parked artillery we see in the Donbass is not going to be viable in any major war. So mobile gun units that
    are always on the move are going to have more utility. Small rounds are not obsolete.


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