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    2S38 Derivatsiya-PVO 57-mm AAA SPG

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    Post  Begome Sun Oct 04, 2020 12:08 am

    So what's the latest on the Derivatsia's range?

    I've heard 12-16 km and an article talking about the AU-220M 57mm gun with 80 shots/min and 14.5 km range was linked but it doesn't say that the gun is for Derivatsia...another article from July this year says it only has 6 km range but 120 shots/min and that article is specifically about Derivatsia.
    I've also seen an image that seemed to suggest 16 km somewhere but I didn't save it and now I can't find it anymore...
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    Post  Isos Sun Oct 04, 2020 12:33 am

    You can find a ballistic computer online. You need muzzle velocity and round weight. That will give you its fire zone.

    But what matters is effective range. The round need quite some time to reach longer ranges and the target can change its path evading your fire easily, specially if it knows you are targeting him. Modern jets have laser warning detectors. IMO effective range should be 8km against big targets. Against missiles the optics will have quite low range, maybe 2km max.

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    Post  magnumcromagnon Sun Oct 04, 2020 12:41 am

    The 12-16km range is for firing on land targets (with a ballistic trajectory) while the 8km range is for aerial targets.
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    Post  GarryB Sun Oct 04, 2020 8:11 am

    The 6km might be the range of the 57mm grenade launcher and perhaps is ballistic range for the HE rounds.

    The 57mm gun will have different ranges for different targets...

    2S38 Derivatsiya-PVO 57-mm AAA SPG - Page 15 Djrbog10

    So 6km for targets on the ground and 8km for air targets for that setup.

    2S38 Derivatsiya-PVO 57-mm AAA SPG - Page 15 Servei10

    And this one that suggests the air burst and guided rounds can be used out to 15km against some targets...

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    Post  Begome Sun Oct 04, 2020 3:34 pm

    Ah yes, thank you! That first image is what I was trying to find again...so it seems the 12 km are only for the Sprut's 125mm turret, not for 57mm.
    As to the second image: are you sure this is for the Derivatsia's gun? That image has some weird aspects, for example that "МФС"-type rounds (airburst rounds) are shown to be usable against BMP-type targets, which seems counter-intuitive as that should be exactly the kind of target which has good protection against such a round.
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    Post  lyle6 Sun Oct 04, 2020 3:45 pm

    Begome wrote:Ah yes, thank you! That first image is what I was trying to find again...so it seems the 12 km are only for the Sprut's 125mm turret, not for 57mm.
    As to the second image: are you sure this is for the Derivatsia's gun? That image has some weird aspects, for example that "МФС"-type rounds (airburst rounds) are shown to be usable against BMP-type targets, which seems counter-intuitive as that should be exactly the kind of target which has good protection against such a round.
    Its a multipurpose round. Against armored targets the fuze would be set to delayed impact.

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    Post  Begome Sun Oct 04, 2020 4:03 pm

    lyle6 wrote:Its a multipurpose round. Against armored targets the fuze would be set to delayed impact.
    Ah that makes sense...I was wondering why a "многофункциональный снаряд" (multi-purpose round) was considered an airburst round...it only is if the timer is set that way.
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    Post  GarryB Mon Oct 05, 2020 4:11 am

    Smart fuses would detect the impact and penetration and set off the HE charge after the round has penetrated into a cavity as an APHE type round.

    The laser fuse will be in the tail and could be set off by laser beam anywhere along its flight path.

    It is very very clever... they already had cheap simple air burst 40mm grenades where a small charge explodes on impact and blows the grenade back up into the air and the main charge is detonated at 1.5-2m in the air, so instead of leg and lower body wounds from grenade fragments you get head and upper chest wounds which are far more lethal.

    The US solution was a laser range finder and ballistics computer on the grenade launcher with a fuse setting coil over the muzzle that set the grenade fuses as they fired. The problem was precision... the timers in the grenades themselves had to be very very precise to be of any use, which made each grenade rather expensive and the whole idea too expensive even for the US to use.

    The US solution however allowed flying targets to be engaged whereas the Russian system needs to impact the ground near the target.

    Using lasers to set off the grenades means it can be cheap and mass produced... and fitted to a 40mm grenade launcher means airburst rounds become affordable... a 40mm grenade has plenty of volume for rear mounted fuse and propellent, centrally mounted HE charge and sides and front mounted fragmentation... though I would think a forward mounted cup with ballbearings that are projected forward in a cone shaped pattern of fragments like a remotely fired shotgun would be best... with a known shape and pattern for the fragments you could automate the remote weapon station with the 40mm grenade launcher and have it direct grenades towards small drones which probably could not be detected outside the 2.5km range of the grenade launcher anyway.

    It could also be used against ground targets trying to infiltrate or attack the air defence systems and would compliment a 57mm gun battery.... put some Bulat and Kornet and Pine missiles on the vehicle with the 40mm grenade launcher and you have an awesome anti drone vehicle...
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    Post  magnumcromagnon Wed Oct 14, 2020 10:51 pm

    2S38 Derivatsiya-PVO 57-mm AAA SPG - Page 15 I-wzX4Lf2-O

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    Post  magnumcromagnon Sun Oct 18, 2020 11:55 pm

    So I got to thinking, I feel like the 57mm round is good for the medium weight vehicles and the upgraded 76.2mm cannon would be better for the Armata family vehicles. Better range, heavier payload, better penetration, and it'll also fair better for the AAA SPG role. The DVAP round for Koalitsiya could be scaled down for the 76.2mm caliber, and we could potentially get 40-45km range for land targets. Future improved AA rounds could get 20km range (something in the ball park of Pantsir-S1).
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    Post  lyle6 Mon Oct 19, 2020 12:56 am

    magnumcromagnon wrote:So I got to thinking, I feel like the 57mm round is good for the medium weight vehicles and the upgraded 76.2mm cannon would be better for the Armata family vehicles. Better range, heavier payload, better penetration, and it'll also fair better for the AAA SPG role. The DVAP round for Koalitsiya could be scaled down for the 76.2mm caliber, and we could potentially get 40-45km range for land targets. Future improved AA rounds could get 20km range (something in the ball park of Pantsir-S1).

    The 57 mm calibre wasn't chosen out of the blue... It was the smallest calibre possible that can reliably threaten future NATO IFVs while still leaving enough scope for improvement that it can maintain the level of overmatch regardless of how much they upgrade said IFVs. There is no advantage to having an oversized gun for the task - its just extra weight and fewer stowed ammo (kills).

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    Post  kvs Mon Oct 19, 2020 1:32 am

    More ammo is always better. There is never enough. I would expend the resources to develop better detonating heads for these 57 mm shells.
    Range is another problem for another discussion.

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    Post  GarryB Mon Oct 19, 2020 6:54 am

    Bigger shells are easier to improve as there is more volume for stuff and even fins to steer etc.

    For instance... instead of a 76.2mm gun, you could use a 152mm artillery round with a base mounted laser receiver as used with Kornet and Bulat ATGMs with steering rear fins and the same laser receiver could be used to set off the main charge which could be 5kgs of HE and 35kgs of steel cubes and ball shrapnel.

    Using it out to 20km or so, you could use it against aircraft... and to pretty high altitudes as well.

    I would think the 100mm shell fired by the medium velocity rifled gun of the BMP-3 would be an interesting base model for an anti IFV round using an APFSDS round like the 57mm grenade round used but obviously with more propellent and higher pressure barrel, but most of the time it would fire a good HE round and missile.

    Having different weapons for different weights just expands the logistics burden and makes things more expensive, often without adding flexibility or capability existing weapons could not already achieve.

    A High pressure 120mm rifled gun using all the same shells and mortar bombs they use on their 120mm gun/mortar, but with an added APFSDS round as well could be interesting as a lower recoil round similar to the 125mm but for lighter vehicles and less well armoured targets...
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    Post  kvs Tue Oct 20, 2020 7:07 am

    GarryB wrote:Bigger shells are easier to improve as there is more volume for stuff and even fins to steer etc.

    For instance... instead of a 76.2mm gun, you could use a 152mm artillery round with a base mounted laser receiver as used with Kornet and Bulat ATGMs with steering rear fins and the same laser receiver could be used to set off the main charge which could be 5kgs of HE and 35kgs of steel cubes and ball shrapnel.

    Using it out to 20km or so, you could use it against aircraft... and to pretty high altitudes as well.

    I would think the 100mm shell fired by the medium velocity rifled gun of the BMP-3 would be an interesting base model for an anti IFV round using an APFSDS round like the 57mm grenade round used but obviously with more propellent and higher pressure barrel, but most of the time it would fire a good HE round and missile.

    Having different weapons for different weights just expands the logistics burden and makes things more expensive, often without adding flexibility or capability existing weapons could not already achieve.

    A High pressure 120mm rifled gun using all the same shells and mortar bombs they use on their 120mm gun/mortar, but with an added APFSDS round as well could be interesting as a lower recoil round similar to the 125mm but for lighter vehicles and less well armoured targets...

    The total number of large shells that can be carried drops off rapidly with size since volume grows with a cubic power law. Thus, more resupply operations are needed
    and one does not have the luxury in war to schedule precise logistics.

    Also, the 57 mm shells are have a certain range of uses as do 152 mm shells and the 152 mm shells are not a universal replacement.

    And another issue is that parked artillery we see in the Donbass is not going to be viable in any major war. So mobile gun units that
    are always on the move are going to have more utility. Small rounds are not obsolete.

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    Post  LMFS Fri Dec 25, 2020 2:02 am

    "Fighter "of UAVs" Derivatsiya-PVO " will go to state tests in 2022 - Ministry of defense of the Russian Federation

    25.12.2020 0:10:18
    Moscow. December 25. State tests of the new anti-aircraft artillery system "Derivation-air defense", capable of destroying drones and cruise missiles, are planned for 2022, said the head of the military air defense (air defense) of the Armed forces of the Russian Federation, Lieutenant General Alexander Leonov.
    "Currently, as part of preliminary tests of the anti-aircraft artillery system, firing from newly developed shells is being carried out to confirm the specified tactical and technical characteristics. State tests are planned for 2022, " he said in an interview with the Russian defense Ministry's Krasnaya Zvezda newspaper on Friday.
    Earlier, the information Department of the Russian defense Ministry reported that the state tests of "Derivation-air defense" were planned to be completed in November 2019.
    In August of this year, the press service of Uralvagonzavod Corporation reported that state tests of the complex will be completed in the first quarter of 2022.
    Leonov said in the army "Derivation-defense" will replace the antiaircraft self-propelled installation "Shilka". According to him, the new complex is capable of firing on the move and afloat.
    The General said that the Derivation-air defense system" is capable of dealing with mini-and
    micro-drones due to the use of an innovative projectile with programmable detonation near the target.
    Leonov said that "Derivation-defense" will be part of mixed tactical groups to combat drones. These groups include combined arms units, air defense units, and electronic warfare units.
    "This allows for early detection and notification of UAV actions, radio-electronic suppression of the UAV control system and echeloned fire exposure," he said.
    The Derivation-air defense system is designed to equip tactical units of the army air defense of the Ground forces.
    According to the Russian defense Ministry, the complex is capable of fighting cruise and air missiles, drones, tactical and army aircraft and helicopters, single projectiles of multiple launch rocket systems, as well as ground and surface lightly armored targets.
    The Derivation-air defense combat vehicle is equipped with an uninhabited combat module with a combined passive reconnaissance and sighting system. It provides detection and firing of air and ground targets from a standstill, in motion and afloat. The ammunition package includes five types of ammunition, the main of which is a multifunctional projectile with a remotely programmed detonation near the target, the Russian defense Ministry reported earlier.
    In March 2018, General Director of the Central research Institute "Burevestnik "(part of the Corporation "Uralvagonzavod", " rostec") Georgy Zakamennykh announced the creation of the first prototype of the "Derivation-air defense" and the beginning of preliminary tests.

    https://www.militarynews.ru/story.asp?rid=1&nid=543752&lang=RU
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    Post  franco Sat Jan 30, 2021 2:21 pm

    In the Russian Federation began testing "smart" shells for the ZAK "Derivation-Air Defense"

    Anti-aircraft artillery complex "Derivation-Air Defense" will receive new rounds with multifunctional, armor-piercing sub-caliber and guided shells. TASS was told about this in the press service of Uralvagonzavod (UVZ, part of the state corporation Rostec).

    The 2S38 combat vehicle from the ZAK 1K151 "Derivation-Air Defense" composition was first presented at the Army-2018 forum. In June 2020, he took part in the Victory Parade on Red Square.

    The general director of UVZ, Aleksandr Potapov, said in August last year that the combat vehicle would begin to enter the Russian troops from 2022.

    “The tests are scheduled to be completed in the first quarter of 2022. And serial deliveries will begin after the appropriate conclusion of the State Commission, "- said then the general director of the plant.

    "Derivation-PVO" is a self-propelled gun mounted on the chassis of the BMP-3 infantry fighting vehicle, which is equipped with a combat module with an automatic 57 mm cannon. The complex is designed to combat drones, as well as cruise missiles and aircraft weapons in the near zone.

    In addition, the installation is capable of operating against ground targets. To combat infantry, ZAK has a 7.62-mm PKTM machine gun with an ammunition capacity of 500 rounds.

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    Post  LMFS Sat Jan 30, 2021 2:37 pm

    ^
    2S38 Derivatsiya-PVO 57-mm AAA SPG - Page 15 Servei11

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    Post  GarryB Sun Jan 31, 2021 4:00 am

    That image looks familiar LMFS... perhaps scroll this page up a bit... Smile

    What I was trying to say about calibres is each one has a job but sometimes they lose their effectiveness.

    With the BMP range of vehicles they started with a 73mm gun because of deficiencies with the AT-3 ATGMs which couldn't hit a tank target within 500m, because it took that long for the system to gather the missile under control and for the operator to get the missile onto line of sight ready to hit a target.

    That meant the BMP-1 had to have a main gun that could penetrate the frontal armour of a western tank. The 73mm round it fired was essentially a super heavy RPG-7... in fact it was an SPG-9 rocket with slightly less propellent because it is fired from an enclosed gun instead of an open tube recoiless rifle.

    Anyway come time for the BMP-2 the new ATGMs had a dead zone of 20-25 metres so the main gun could be dedicated to shooting enemy BMP like vehicles, which is what it is for.

    It was found however that the high velocity 30mm cannon was very good at some things and not so good at others so both the BMPs were used together where their different guns complimented each other.

    That is why the replacement BMP-3 replaces the 2A42 30mm cannon with a 2A72 30mm cannon for use against enemy light armour and also the 100mm rifled gun with a HE round and an ATGM replaces the 73mm gun and the external ATGM launcher.

    The problem today is that the 30mm round is getting a little small and is now marginal on enemy BMP type vehicles, so the solution is to increase calibre.

    The gun is also used for anti aircraft use as well but ironically the 30mm round is OK for aircraft including helicopters where it is still every bit as effective as it used to be, but drones are tiny and you would need to fire thousands of rounds to assure a hit, though airburst shells could solve that though.

    One solution is to go to a larger calibre and in this case there seem to be two excellent solutions.

    This vehicle (2S38) uses the same round as the S-60 AA gun. It offers good shell weight and good velocity and enough space for a decent warhead but also guided rounds or an effective APFSDS round too as well as a good smart fused APHE round.

    It is ideal for anti aircraft use and can be used against ground armoured targets too if need be (traditionally Soviet AA gun vehicles are used in the ground to ground role too).

    The second solution is the new 57mm grenade launcher. Just looking at the round itself:

    2S38 Derivatsiya-PVO 57-mm AAA SPG - Page 15 Jtlav10

    You can see just using your fingers that the width is about 60mm and the entire length of the whole round is just over 5 calibres, which means 60 x 5 = about 300mm.

    In comparison the 30mm cannon they use is a 30 x 165mm round, so half the length in terms of propellent case and rather narrower too.

    As you can see from the above image the tiny stub propellent case on the HE round is very small much smaller than the propellent case for the 30mm round, but that is only because this is a HE round and muzzle velocity is not important.

    The APFSDS round will be the same length as this whole round but instead of a tiny propellent stub and a huge HE projectile it will be a very long shell case with lots of propellent and a metal dart that is much longer and much heavier than anything you could fit into a 30mm cannon shell and with much more propellent pushing it down the barrel at much higher speeds.

    With this combination of heavy long fast APFSDS round and long heavy HE round, the 57mm grenade launcher offers the opportunity to replace the 30mm cannon and the 100mm rifled gun on the BMP-3 with a weapon with better penetration than the 30mm and a good HE round that can be carried in much greater numbers and fired at a much higher rate if needed.

    One 57mm grenade wont be as powerful as one 100mm shell... but a burst of 3-4 57mm grenades will be more effective.

    Now they could have skipped the 57mm calibre and gone for a 76.2mm weapon or something even larger, but the smaller lighter 57mm guns will get the job done with smaller lighter ammo that can be carried in larger numbers.

    The Russian Army don't really use 76.2mm guns any more, the smallest weapons they use will be 82mm mortars and 100mm guns, but the Russian Navy does use 76.2mm guns and the technology and design ideas used in the upgraded 57mm ammo for the 2S38 will almost certainly be used in other calibres in the Army and Navy to improve the performance of guns in service.

    During WWII at the start of the war the Soviets had a decision to make... fit their brand new T-34 with the new 57mm high velocity gun that could take out Panthers at 1,000m at a time when there were no Panthers and Tigers on the battlefield, or use the 76.2mm gun with progressively longer and longer barrels that were effective against all the vehicles the Germans used at that time.

    The main reason they chose the 76.2mm gun was because its HE round was much more effective, and tanks actually used HE round against troops and fortified positions much more than they fired at tanks most of the time.

    Note the 57mm anti tank gun I am talking about is not the same as the 57mm AA gun called the S-60, the AT gun ammo had a longer shell case with more propellent. It was a 57 x 480mm round compared with the 57 x 347mm...
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    Post  LMFS Sun Jan 31, 2021 12:49 pm

    GarryB wrote:That image looks familiar LMFS... perhaps scroll this page up a bit... Smile

    Yes, it has appeared multiple times in the last years. I just posted it anew because the new rounds they mention in the article seem to be exactly the ones that appear as "prospective" in the drawing

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    Post  lyle6 Sun Jan 31, 2021 3:58 pm

    Stolen from Neil Gibson:

    2S38 Derivatsiya-PVO 57-mm AAA SPG - Page 15 EswCq3DXEAYXpUh?format=jpg&name=large

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    Post  George1 Wed Feb 03, 2021 11:28 am

    Transport-loading vehicle 9Т260 of the self-propelled anti-aircraft artillery complex "Derivation-Air Defense"

    As reported on February 2, 2021 by the TASS news agency, the 9T260 transport-loading vehicle of the new 57-mm self-propelled anti-aircraft artillery complex 1K150 Derivation-Air Defense is capable of charging the complex's combat vehicle at the front edge of the battlefield. This was reported to TASS in the press service of JSC Scientific and Production Corporation Uralvagonzavod (UVZ, part of the state corporation Rostec).

    2S38 Derivatsiya-PVO 57-mm AAA SPG - Page 15 87208010

    The 9T260 transport and loading vehicle of the new 57-mm self-propelled anti-aircraft artillery complex 1K150 "Derivation-Air Defense", developed by JSC Scientific and Production Corporation Uralvagonzavod (c) JSC Scientific and Production Corporation Uralvagonzavod


    "The 9T260 transport and loading vehicle is made on the chassis of a protected Ural truck equipped with an armored cab, body and fuel tanks. Thus, the vehicle can withstand hitting 5.45-7.62 mm bullets and shrapnel, which are one of the most serious threats on the battlefield, "the press service said.

    As noted in UVZ, a trained crew of two people can load the ammunition rack of a vehicle in 20 minutes.

    The process of unloading ammunition from a transport-loading vehicle into a combat vehicle is mechanized as much as possible, which significantly reduces the reload time and increases the survivability of equipment, UVZ reported. It is possible to simultaneously load two combat vehicles with ammunition.

    According to UVZ, one 9T260 is capable of simultaneously transporting almost 600 projectiles of 57 mm caliber, aerosol ammunition for setting smoke screens and over 2 thousand cartridges.

    https://bmpd.livejournal.com/4249938.html

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