Russia Defence Forum

Would you like to react to this message? Create an account in a few clicks or log in to continue.

Military Forum for Russian and Global Defence Issues


    2S38 Derivatsiya-PVO 57-mm AAA SPG

    Hole
    Hole

    Posts : 3247
    Points : 3247
    Join date : 2018-03-24
    Age : 44
    Location : Merkelland

    2S38 Derivatsiya-PVO 57-mm AAA SPG - Page 14 Empty Re: 2S38 Derivatsiya-PVO 57-mm AAA SPG

    Post  Hole on Fri Apr 17, 2020 12:16 pm

    A computer predicts their course with the help of radars/optics and the gun fires a few shots onto that heading. Then you hope that the missile won´t change its flightpath in the last second.
    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 26206
    Points : 26752
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    2S38 Derivatsiya-PVO 57-mm AAA SPG - Page 14 Empty Re: 2S38 Derivatsiya-PVO 57-mm AAA SPG

    Post  GarryB on Fri Apr 17, 2020 3:09 pm

    How will these 57mm naval gun intercept sea skimming cruise missiles? Those missiles are capable of maneuvering. Probably capable of terminal maneuvering as well.

    The same way a 30mm twin gatling gun mount does... the target is tracked and an interception point is plotted that includes the flight time of the shells (30mm or 57mm) and so you then fire a burst... in the case of 30mm cannon shells you might fire a 1-2 second burst for a manouvering target to send 200-400 cannon shells to intercept the target... those 200-400 shells wont hit one tiny point in space, they will be scattered all over the area around the aim point... now between the time the shells are fired and the time they reach the intercept point the missile might have sped up or slowed down or climbed or descended or turned or any combination of these things.. but a huge scatter of 400 30mm shells all over that area means even if it made all those course corrections... it is still effectively heading towards the boat and will probably be hit by more than one shell.

    The difference a 57mm gun makes is that instead of firing 400 shells you fire 4 shells that bracket the interception point with air burst shells that spread thousands of high speed fragments to fill that intercept box... the point is that the 30mm guns can start firing at about 4km where they could be effective with perhaps point blank being about 2.5kms where targets are not getting past without some hits.... with a 57mm gun they can start firing at about 12km and each time the missile gets past another burst can be fired to intercept it closer in.

    Of course a target that is manouvering hard will have a TOR or Pantsir missile fired at it, or a guided 57mm shell to ensure a kill, but most missiles just rely on flying low and fast and straight... in fact an option for the 57mm gun would be to hit the sea water in front of the missile... smacking in to a wall of sea water at high subsonic flight speed will ruin any missiles day... subsonic would be destroyed... faster would be obliterated...

    A computer predicts their course with the help of radars/optics and the gun fires a few shots onto that heading. Then you hope that the missile won´t change its flightpath in the last second

    Ideally you don't want the missile getting too close... a 250kg warhead going off 300m away can do some damage, but most gun systems become more effective the closer the target... but any incoming missile pulling hard manouvers will be engaged with a missile... a Harpoon flying in level and straight is ideal cannon fodder however.

    Plus guns are fully dual purpose and can be used for warning shots... an air burst 57mm shell above a speed boat would be devastating... 30mm pretty effective too...
    New airburst 30mm shells makes them more useful too.
    jhelb
    jhelb

    Posts : 909
    Points : 1018
    Join date : 2015-04-04
    Location : Previously: Belarus Currently: A Small Island No One Cares About

    2S38 Derivatsiya-PVO 57-mm AAA SPG - Page 14 Empty Re: 2S38 Derivatsiya-PVO 57-mm AAA SPG

    Post  jhelb on Sat Apr 18, 2020 11:00 am

    GarryB wrote:
    A computer predicts their course with the help of radars/optics and the gun fires a few shots onto that heading.

    Isn't it true that cruise missiles also carry the equivalent of SAP 518 that operates as an antiradar and constantly sends distorted information to adversary radars?
    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 26206
    Points : 26752
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    2S38 Derivatsiya-PVO 57-mm AAA SPG - Page 14 Empty Re: 2S38 Derivatsiya-PVO 57-mm AAA SPG

    Post  GarryB on Sun Apr 19, 2020 5:46 am

    The very large Soviet models were designed to penetrate very strong IADS, and sometimes they carried jammers and armour and decoys and other goodies just to increase their chances of getting through... but the measure counter measure game is tricky... if you know the incoming missile has a jammer then a jamming signal is something you could launch a missile at to home in on the jamming signal... for it to detect it is being attacked by an anti jamming missile it would need to detect the incoming missile and also detect that it has a passive homing seeker... which is near impossible to fit on a missile... especially the tiny western anti ship missiles.

    The US has not expected to be attacking a real carrier group with a solid IADS, but these days even Russian corvettes have the equivalent of a couple of S-350 batteries and a few Panstir and TOR batteries in support and even their artillery (large calibre guns) can shoot down aerial targets these days too... so the Americans are having a bit of a crisis of issues because even China is developing new ships with capable air defence systems and IADS... when your enemy is launching hundreds or thousands of slow low flying cruise missiles then the solution is an IADS... that is what they are for... to prevent air defence units from being overwhelmed by using them at peak efficiency... select the biggest threat and deal with that first while all air defence assets are dealing with what they can deal with... it is no guarantee of survival but offers the best protection solution.

    Russia, like any country, will simply have to rely on intel to determine what threats are out there and how they can be defeated... sometimes they will surprise... for the west their intel services are inept... they were told for years about rocket powered torpedoes and land attack cruise missiles and the effectiveness of supersonic anti ship missiles and that they were working on hypersonic models... they pretty much totally ignored them and gave all sorts of excuses... they wont be reliable... they wont be accurate... they wont be able to find the targets because their C4IR is rubbish etc etc.... they constantly under estimate their enemies and over estimate their own potential.
    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 26206
    Points : 26752
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    2S38 Derivatsiya-PVO 57-mm AAA SPG - Page 14 Empty Re: 2S38 Derivatsiya-PVO 57-mm AAA SPG

    Post  GarryB on Sun Apr 19, 2020 5:50 am

    That nuclear powered unlimited range cruise missile was shown on video simulation flying over sea but flying around radars... so it likely has equipment on board that can detect radar emissions of ships looking for targets to shoot down so it would adjust its flight path to skirt around such things to avoid interception... of course with a normal cruise missile you would want it to fly at medium altitude to improve range performance because conventional turbojet engines work best at higher altitude, but with nuclear propulsion it could fly low all the way making it a much more difficult target...
    jhelb
    jhelb

    Posts : 909
    Points : 1018
    Join date : 2015-04-04
    Location : Previously: Belarus Currently: A Small Island No One Cares About

    2S38 Derivatsiya-PVO 57-mm AAA SPG - Page 14 Empty Re: 2S38 Derivatsiya-PVO 57-mm AAA SPG

    Post  jhelb on Sun Apr 19, 2020 12:11 pm

    GarryB wrote:The very large Soviet models were designed to penetrate very strong IADS, and sometimes they carried jammers and armour and decoys and other goodies just to increase their chances of getting through.
    Which missiles? Are they still in use?


    GarryB wrote:That nuclear powered unlimited range cruise missile was shown on video simulation flying over sea but flying around radars
    So it's basically a cross between a cruise missile and a loitering munition like Harop, isn't it?
    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 26206
    Points : 26752
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    2S38 Derivatsiya-PVO 57-mm AAA SPG - Page 14 Empty Re: 2S38 Derivatsiya-PVO 57-mm AAA SPG

    Post  GarryB on Mon Apr 20, 2020 4:09 am

    Which missiles? Are they still in use?

    The big anti carrier models... Granit, Vulcan, etc etc

    So it's basically a cross between a cruise missile and a loitering munition like Harop, isn't it?

    Not really... it is not really gathering intel... it doesn't pass the locations of air defence networks on to anyone... it just uses that information to skirt around air defence sites on land and at sea... to make it more likely to make it to its target...
    magnumcromagnon
    magnumcromagnon

    Posts : 6180
    Points : 6331
    Join date : 2013-12-05
    Location : Pindos ave., Pindosville, Pindosylvania, Pindostan

    2S38 Derivatsiya-PVO 57-mm AAA SPG - Page 14 Empty Re: 2S38 Derivatsiya-PVO 57-mm AAA SPG

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Tue Jun 09, 2020 4:28 pm

    2S38 Derivatsiya-PVO 57-mm AAA SPG - Page 14 102966493_2663158157260257_4862210965930305006_o.jpg?_nc_cat=109&_nc_sid=e007fa&_nc_oc=AQm1MzCcojrfTPEGR1tcYI9ue0wzithZuz1wszNHyXKUzM3OfVwJ3JFKcDwPcKnpW30&_nc_ht=scontent-dfw5-1
    2S38 Derivatsiya-PVO 57-mm AAA SPG - Page 14 103091336_2663158187260254_1747312947756642628_o.jpg?_nc_cat=100&_nc_sid=e007fa&_nc_oc=AQm3h2QHbtW9eX0HHomaa8aCnKCJdkMUJgQHDxYBY7nvSujfY7XB1MVOZG4lUoz4Qn8&_nc_ht=scontent-dfw5-2
    2S38 Derivatsiya-PVO 57-mm AAA SPG - Page 14 103097761_2663158183926921_6273324539065599173_o.jpg?_nc_cat=105&_nc_sid=e007fa&_nc_oc=AQk1IVpXANhAcuj5oN-JkkMIt6bMfavzLCM-GtZiaioTv8wrB0hinb7sjX-EquUh-_M&_nc_ht=scontent-dfw5-1
    Hole
    Hole

    Posts : 3247
    Points : 3247
    Join date : 2018-03-24
    Age : 44
    Location : Merkelland

    2S38 Derivatsiya-PVO 57-mm AAA SPG - Page 14 Empty Re: 2S38 Derivatsiya-PVO 57-mm AAA SPG

    Post  Hole on Tue Jun 09, 2020 5:41 pm

    Two of your pics are off-topic. Very Happy
    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 26206
    Points : 26752
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    2S38 Derivatsiya-PVO 57-mm AAA SPG - Page 14 Empty Re: 2S38 Derivatsiya-PVO 57-mm AAA SPG

    Post  GarryB on Wed Jun 10, 2020 7:09 am

    Interesting comparison of the two different vehicles though.

    The on topic air defence gun with the muzzle brake and the two vehicles with the new 57mm grenade launcher that doesn't have a muzzle brake fitted...

    Raises the interesting question... the T-15 was the BMP version of Armata but with a 30mm cannon turret, but this vehicle with the 57mm grenade launcher should also be the BMP version... and so would the version with the high velocity 57mm gun too...
    medo
    medo

    Posts : 3935
    Points : 4019
    Join date : 2010-10-24
    Location : Slovenia

    2S38 Derivatsiya-PVO 57-mm AAA SPG - Page 14 Empty Re: 2S38 Derivatsiya-PVO 57-mm AAA SPG

    Post  medo on Wed Jun 10, 2020 9:07 am

    there are two interesting differences between Derivatsia-PVO and T-15, which have simmilar RWS with the same gun. First is difference with gunners FCS. In Derivatsia-PVO it is the same EO complex as the one for commander and have missile guiding channel to use laser guided rounds. T-15 have EO complex without missile guiding channel, so it is not meant to use laser guided rounds. Only commander have it to guide Ataka ATGMs. The second difference is the gun muzzle brake, which Derivatsia have, but T-15 doesn't. It is not just muzzle break, but programing device to program new air burst programable rounds. T-15 without this device could not use air burst rounds. It would be good if serial T-15 will be as well equipped with programable air burst ammunition, as it is very useful against infantry as well as against flying dangers like drones or ATGMs. T-15 is well equipped as it have laser detectors, MAWS detectors and small AESA radars for active protection system and they cover 360o. Derivatsia is also equipped with detecting sensors, but it is not clear if they are laser detectors or MAWS detectors.
    Hole
    Hole

    Posts : 3247
    Points : 3247
    Join date : 2018-03-24
    Age : 44
    Location : Merkelland

    2S38 Derivatsiya-PVO 57-mm AAA SPG - Page 14 Empty Re: 2S38 Derivatsiya-PVO 57-mm AAA SPG

    Post  Hole on Wed Jun 10, 2020 4:52 pm

    T-15 and Kurganets use the low-velocity gun. Mindstorm elaborated on this.
    magnumcromagnon
    magnumcromagnon

    Posts : 6180
    Points : 6331
    Join date : 2013-12-05
    Location : Pindos ave., Pindosville, Pindosylvania, Pindostan

    2S38 Derivatsiya-PVO 57-mm AAA SPG - Page 14 Empty Re: 2S38 Derivatsiya-PVO 57-mm AAA SPG

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Wed Jun 10, 2020 9:21 pm

    Hole wrote:Two of your pics are off-topic. Very Happy

    The thing is I couldn't a find a thread for the 57mm grenade launcher, and a lot of the discussion was already had here, so I posted the images here.
    dino00
    dino00

    Posts : 1397
    Points : 1438
    Join date : 2012-10-12
    Age : 33
    Location : portugal

    2S38 Derivatsiya-PVO 57-mm AAA SPG - Page 14 Empty Re: 2S38 Derivatsiya-PVO 57-mm AAA SPG

    Post  dino00 on Wed Jun 10, 2020 9:26 pm

    They will knock on “Derivation”: a new anti-aircraft system is being prepared for state tests

    The Ministry of Defense prepared test plans for the unique 2S38 anti-aircraft complex, also known under the designation “Derivation-Air Defense”, sources in the military-industrial complex and the Ministry of Defense told Izvestia. At the parade on June 24, several of these tracked vehicles for the first time will pass on Red Square. Then they will be sent for final revision. Military experts will verify the operation of all components and assemblies, as well as weapons.

    In accordance with the work schedule (Izvestia has at its disposal), the preparation and acceptance tests of two prototypes will be completed in December this year. At the beginning of the next(year) car will be sent to the State test. This is the final stage before taking the complex into service.


    https://iz.ru/1022173/anton-lavrov-bogdan-stepovoi/postuchat-po-derivatcii-novuiu-zenitnuiu-sistemu-gotoviat-k-gosispytaniiam

    State tests in 2021, the translation is a little off and the article has mistakes...
    Hole
    Hole

    Posts : 3247
    Points : 3247
    Join date : 2018-03-24
    Age : 44
    Location : Merkelland

    2S38 Derivatsiya-PVO 57-mm AAA SPG - Page 14 Empty Re: 2S38 Derivatsiya-PVO 57-mm AAA SPG

    Post  Hole on Wed Jun 10, 2020 9:39 pm

    magnumcromagnon wrote:
    Hole wrote:Two of your pics are off-topic. Very Happy

    The thing is I couldn't a find a thread for the 57mm grenade launcher, and a lot of the discussion was already had here, so I posted the images here.

    It was a joke. Pics like this are always welcomed. respekt
    The-thing-next-door
    The-thing-next-door

    Posts : 845
    Points : 893
    Join date : 2017-09-18
    Location : Uranus

    2S38 Derivatsiya-PVO 57-mm AAA SPG - Page 14 Empty Re: 2S38 Derivatsiya-PVO 57-mm AAA SPG

    Post  The-thing-next-door on Thu Jun 11, 2020 12:23 am

    Hole wrote:T-15 and Kurganets use the low-velocity gun. Mindstorm elaborated on this.

    If I recall correctly the T15 uses a newer version of the high velocity AU220M? turret.

    The T15's gun is clearly not the same as the one on the kurganets and being based on the Armata chassis it only makes sense that it would be the high velocity autocannon.

    The Derivatsiya's gun could be the same as the T-15's but just adapted to use a water cooling systems like the Shilka and all of the Russian naval guns.
    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 26206
    Points : 26752
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    2S38 Derivatsiya-PVO 57-mm AAA SPG - Page 14 Empty Re: 2S38 Derivatsiya-PVO 57-mm AAA SPG

    Post  GarryB on Thu Jun 11, 2020 5:48 am

    There are two different guns... both are 57mm calibre.

    One is a gun and the other is a grenade launcher... normally it would not be a big deal... the upgraded BMP-2s have a 30mm cannon and a 30mm grenade launcher too.

    The problem is that you can normally distinguish the two weapons as a cannon with high velocity rounds and a grenade launcher with heavier projectiles and low velocity shells.

    In this case however the grenade launcher can actually fire APFSDS rounds which are high velocity armour piercing rounds so you can't call it a low velocity grenade launcher... even though the HE shell is enormous compared with the propellent case just like with the 30mm grenade launcher round.

    It is like the difference between the 100mm rifled gun of the BMP-3 and the 100mm rifled gun of the T-55... same calibre, but different shell case size...
    George1
    George1

    Posts : 15018
    Points : 15521
    Join date : 2011-12-22
    Location : Greece

    2S38 Derivatsiya-PVO 57-mm AAA SPG - Page 14 Empty Re: 2S38 Derivatsiya-PVO 57-mm AAA SPG

    Post  George1 on Mon Jun 15, 2020 1:09 am

    2S38 Derivatsiya-PVO 57-mm AAA SPG - Page 14 Pvo11
    2S38 Derivatsiya-PVO 57-mm AAA SPG - Page 14 Pvo210
    Hole
    Hole

    Posts : 3247
    Points : 3247
    Join date : 2018-03-24
    Age : 44
    Location : Merkelland

    2S38 Derivatsiya-PVO 57-mm AAA SPG - Page 14 Empty Re: 2S38 Derivatsiya-PVO 57-mm AAA SPG

    Post  Hole on Thu Jun 18, 2020 9:07 pm

    2S38 Derivatsiya-PVO 57-mm AAA SPG - Page 14 H18a4510
    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 26206
    Points : 26752
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    2S38 Derivatsiya-PVO 57-mm AAA SPG - Page 14 Empty Re: 2S38 Derivatsiya-PVO 57-mm AAA SPG

    Post  GarryB on Fri Jun 19, 2020 8:33 am

    The rifle calibre machine gun mount being external is interesting... if they develop some air burst 40mm grenades they could mount a 40mm grenade launcher there instead to hit enemy drones at closer ranges... if they can do it for 30mm cannon shells then it should be possible with a 40mm grenade....
    Hole
    Hole

    Posts : 3247
    Points : 3247
    Join date : 2018-03-24
    Age : 44
    Location : Merkelland

    2S38 Derivatsiya-PVO 57-mm AAA SPG - Page 14 Empty Re: 2S38 Derivatsiya-PVO 57-mm AAA SPG

    Post  Hole on Fri Jun 19, 2020 11:56 am

    The MG is there to fight infantry. No way they skip it.
    magnumcromagnon
    magnumcromagnon

    Posts : 6180
    Points : 6331
    Join date : 2013-12-05
    Location : Pindos ave., Pindosville, Pindosylvania, Pindostan

    2S38 Derivatsiya-PVO 57-mm AAA SPG - Page 14 Empty Re: 2S38 Derivatsiya-PVO 57-mm AAA SPG

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Mon Jun 22, 2020 7:12 pm

    2S38 Derivatsiya-PVO 57-mm AAA SPG - Page 14 EbFSIdaUMAArCjs?format=jpg&name=4096x4096

    GarryB and LMFS like this post

    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 26206
    Points : 26752
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    2S38 Derivatsiya-PVO 57-mm AAA SPG - Page 14 Empty Re: 2S38 Derivatsiya-PVO 57-mm AAA SPG

    Post  GarryB on Tue Jun 23, 2020 1:40 am

    The MG is there to fight infantry. No way they skip it.

    A 40mm grenade launcher could kill troops out to 2.5km rather more effectively and efficiently than a rifle calibre machine gun...

    @magnumcromagnon

    Amazing photo...

    Interesting that it has not muzzle brake but it does have the barrel water cooling system tube...
    magnumcromagnon
    magnumcromagnon

    Posts : 6180
    Points : 6331
    Join date : 2013-12-05
    Location : Pindos ave., Pindosville, Pindosylvania, Pindostan

    2S38 Derivatsiya-PVO 57-mm AAA SPG - Page 14 Empty Re: 2S38 Derivatsiya-PVO 57-mm AAA SPG

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Tue Jun 23, 2020 9:22 am

    GarryB wrote:
    The MG is there to fight infantry. No way they skip it.

    A 40mm grenade launcher could kill troops out to 2.5km rather more effectively and efficiently than a rifle calibre machine gun...

    @magnumcromagnon

    Amazing photo...

    Interesting that it has not muzzle brake but it does have the barrel water cooling system tube...

    It definitely has a muzzle brake.

    2S38 Derivatsiya-PVO 57-mm AAA SPG - Page 14 EbFSL9CU0AAndO0?format=jpg&name=medium
    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 26206
    Points : 26752
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    2S38 Derivatsiya-PVO 57-mm AAA SPG - Page 14 Empty Re: 2S38 Derivatsiya-PVO 57-mm AAA SPG

    Post  GarryB on Tue Jun 23, 2020 12:00 pm

    Duh... stupid me...

    A muzzle brake makes sense for a single barrel AA gun... it reduces recoil so the barrel moves of the point of aim less with each shot, and of course it creates a place to put induction coils for smart fuse ammo and for determining muzzle velocity of rounds as they are fired in real time... which can be programmed in to the ballistics computer to make bursts of shots more accurate... and of course to set time fuses as the rounds are fired...

    Just as a test I am going to like the original photo post again and dislike this post twice to see if either is possible.

    Sponsored content

    2S38 Derivatsiya-PVO 57-mm AAA SPG - Page 14 Empty Re: 2S38 Derivatsiya-PVO 57-mm AAA SPG

    Post  Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Thu Oct 22, 2020 8:17 am