Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

Admiralty Yard is the other possible option and perhaps even the Baltic Shipyard as they have nuclear experience.

Already cleared as they are working on the Pr'949.

IMHO the Husky/Laika (or whatever next gen design is settled upon) will be built as they will represent the next generation of sub tech.  As awesome as the 855Ms are (every bit as capable as USN Seawolf or Virginias, and more so in many ways) they still represent late 80s/90 concepts.  855Ms are based on K-560 Severodvinsk (laid down in 1993) with a design refresh and newer systems, while the 545 is expected to pioneer new technologies such much improved silencing techniques and the use of composites for (outer) hull, control surfaces, screws etc. Maybe reactor improvements and automation advances?

Russia has an absolute ripper of an SSGN in the Yasen class, with weapons to match, and I think they need a minimum of 12 units (6 North, 6 Pacific), but the Black Enemy in Mordor isn't resting and he is utterly unhinged. It makes no sense to rest on your laurels and omit to make plans for the next generation.

All newly built Russian and US submarines are SSGN in fact

I think the new "up to 72 missiles" submarine is about to erase the blurry line between these two classes.

Big_Gazza wrote:IMHO the Husky/Laika (or whatever next gen design is settled upon) will be built as they will represent the next generation of sub tech.  As awesome as the 855Ms are (every bit as capable as USN Seawolf or Virginias, and more so in many ways) they still represent late 80s/90 concepts.  855Ms are based on K-560 Severodvinsk (laid down in 1993) with a design refresh and newer systems, while the 545 is expected to pioneer new technologies such much improved silencing techniques and the use of composites for (outer) hull, control surfaces, screws etc. Maybe reactor improvements and automation advances?

Russia has an absolute ripper of an SSGN in the Yasen class, with weapons to match, and I think they need a minimum of 12 units (6 North, 6 Pacific), but the Black Enemy in Mordor isn't resting and he is utterly unhinged. It makes no sense to rest on your laurels and omit to make plans for the next generation.

The issue is that USN has a very big advantage in numbers, which can allow them to dedicate lots of resources to track Russian subs and restrict them notably. China is not quite there in subs technology to help Russia carry the burden, but probably in the next few years they will develop both numbers and quality and the Anglos will have their hands more than full to handle them together with VMF.

Podlodka77 wrote:All newly built Russian and US submarines are SSGN in fact, because Virginia also has VLS. But yes, the production of 885M submarines still has to continue, but the construction of a new project has to start also. And I wrote that it is necessary to build at least 10 to 12 submarines of the 885M project, while other new submarines could be of lower displacement but not with less firepower than the Virginia class (Block 1 - Block 4). I don't think the Russians will go below 10,000 tons of full displacement, but only time will tell. The Russians did show a model of proposed 545A (11 340 tons full displacement), but I don't think the submarine shown at exhibit is what will actually be built.

They should create way smaller and simpler unmanned subs carrying Tsirkons. That would allow them to bridge the numbers gap for the time being. Of course the Laika is  already a step in that direction (decreasing costs, increasing numbers) which is a pressing need of the VMF, but the unmanned option, given they have technologies like the ones tested with Vityaz for deep dive and autonomous navigation are already available.

Isos wrote:You are wrong. US ships would be at total disadvantage against China in south China sea. They have to keep more than half of their subs for China.

Russia isn't at disadvantage in terms of number since they also have SSKs. US has only 50 or so subs.

Russian subs won't fight in the atlantic anyway. Maybe when they will get 50 SSN and a decent number of carrier for air support, but not before.

This has nothing to do with coastal defence and all with big power competition in the world ocean, Russia does not need Tsirkon armed SSNs to defend their territory. They are repeating that they will use those to retaliate against US proper if they cross the line and that they will ask the navy to increase their role in face of the current hostile environment, plus are doing everything they can to develop their blue fleet navy.

LMFS wrote:...plus are doing everything they can to develop their blue fleet navy.

I'd have to dispute that. They are building a fleet to defend home waters and to perform A2AD to prevent the USN from being able to operate carrier and amphibious forces in their near abroad. The ships they are currently building lack endurance for open ocean power projection. Their naval doctrine will remain defensive and require surface naval assets to operate within range of land based support such as air superiority, long range strike and surveillance.

If the Murkans are stupid enough to want a piece of the Russian Navy they will need to come within range of the Bears claws. IMHO the Russian ability to escalate within their own space is greater than Murkan power projection abilities, especially after the Ruskies demonstrate their firepower by scratching a flat-top or two.

I think I see what you mean LMFS but I wonder if kindzhal equipped mig-31k aircraft stationed in important trade centers in the Americas wouldnt be a wiser course. I fear zirkon getting into US hands more than kindzhal. I also think aircraft could be defended better than subs stationed close to America

Big_Gazza wrote:I'd have to dispute that. They are building a fleet to defend home waters and to perform A2AD to prevent the USN from being able to operate carrier and amphibious forces in their near abroad.

They don't even need the Gorshkovs for that, I guarantee you the USN is not planning to operate carriers and LHAs in Russian waters. Their life expectancy would be the brief minutes a MiG-31K gets into launch position or a coastal battery with Tsirkon gets activated.

Very clearly they have brown, green and blue water ships and once their coast is safe and the naval industry restarted, they are both building each time bigger oceanic vessels and modernizing the existing ones.

 

The ships they are currently building lack endurance for open ocean power projection.  

Hence why they design the 22350M, modernize the Udaloys, discuss the Lider, upgrade the Nakhimov etc. Such vessels are totally unnecessary for coastal defence, but badly needed to have the endurance, sea keeping and combat capacity needed to be deployed far from the mainland.

Their naval doctrine will remain defensive and require surface naval assets to operate within range of land based support such as air superiority, long range strike and surveillance.

That is not actually correct... you can read their actual doctrine as in strategic plan to 2050 and naval development roadmap to 2030. Defence of the Russian interests in the world ocean is an explicit, high priority goal of the VMF.

If the Murkans are stupid enough to want a piece of the Russian Navy they will need to come within range of the Bears claws.  IMHO the Russian ability to escalate within their own space is greater than Murkan power projection abilities, especially after the Ruskies demonstrate their firepower by scratching a flat-top or two.  

Projecting naval power vs. Russian mainland does not count as an option even for the most delusional American planer, I tell you...

ALAMO wrote:Isos point is, that when the Russians can cover its territorial waters using diesel subs with high confidence, USN will need to dispatch own nuclear subs to do just same - they have no other option.
As they operate 50 subs, that means only a dozen can perform ocean based tasks at each theatre. They are on equal with Russia, and heavily outnumbered by the Chinese.

You have a point, but what Isos said was not that USN is going to be busy with Russian and Chinese subs close to CONUS, but that both Russia and China have the assets needed to defend their coast from US, which is obvious. I agree that USN has developed themselves with such a feeling of self security and with such focus on power projection, that they do not even have the SSKs which are obviously the right tool for defensive purposes. That is why having many Tsirkon armed SSNs and deploying them close to CONUS is a great way to tie up US forces that would otherwise be available for offensive roles far from their territory. Russian military does know how to make plans indeed...

TMA1 wrote:
I think I see what you mean LMFS but I wonder if kindzhal equipped mig-31k aircraft stationed in important trade centers in the Americas wouldnt be a wiser course. I fear zirkon getting into US hands more than kindzhal. I also think aircraft could be defended better than subs stationed close to America

An air base is an option, but it is much more expensive, depends on the political climate at the other side of the world and is a fixed location that needs to be resupplied, maintained, protected from attack, sabotage, infiltration etc. A sub in the middle of the ocean on the other hand does not need permission from anyone, buy loyalty from anyone or to strain relationships with your allies to come and go as you please, all while having the surprise factor of not having a known position and therefore complicating a lot the setup of the AD or ASW forces needed to counter its presence, which will badly strain the US military budget. It is much easier and achieves as much or even more, hence a better solution overall, at least for the time being. When Russia's clout and economy grows, some air bases here and there will make sense indeed.

See, a guy that really knows his thing (General Kartapolov) stating a much around minute 4:

Future SSBN concepts

Awesome design! This could probably be part of the Husky project?

Surrogat was meant to be a training target. It can mimic the sound of larger subs. In this case it seems to act like a double for the big one, deceiving enemy SSN´s.

Slightly shorter than Borei but more volume underwater

Size fits, layout fits

12 SSBN tubes plus about dozen UKSK hatches in the sail and monster sized conformal sonar

Let's see where it goes

Further on the "Arctic" class

edit: Oh no!!! I've linked to a "Russia state-affilated media site"!!     Whatever should I do????



Idiots...  

Was wondering where this thread disappeared to

This might be a pea shooter for pea eights!?



Nice looking attack drone as well >>>