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    Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

    Mir
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    Post  Mir Tue Jan 18, 2022 12:18 pm

    Admiralty Yard is the other possible option and perhaps even the Baltic Shipyard as they have nuclear experience.
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    ALAMO


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    Post  ALAMO Tue Jan 18, 2022 12:19 pm

    Zvezda will be nuclear class very soon as well.
    They have options.
    Mir
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    Post  Mir Tue Jan 18, 2022 12:23 pm

    Already cleared as they are working on the Pr'949.
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    Post  Big_Gazza Tue Jan 18, 2022 12:56 pm

    IMHO the Husky/Laika (or whatever next gen design is settled upon) will be built as they will represent the next generation of sub tech.  As awesome as the 855Ms are (every bit as capable as USN Seawolf or Virginias, and more so in many ways) they still represent late 80s/90 concepts.  855Ms are based on K-560 Severodvinsk (laid down in 1993) with a design refresh and newer systems, while the 545 is expected to pioneer new technologies such much improved silencing techniques and the use of composites for (outer) hull, control surfaces, screws etc. Maybe reactor improvements and automation advances?

    Russia has an absolute ripper of an SSGN in the Yasen class, with weapons to match, and I think they need a minimum of 12 units (6 North, 6 Pacific), but the Black Enemy in Mordor isn't resting and he is utterly unhinged. It makes no sense to rest on your laurels and omit to make plans for the next generation.

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    Podlodka77
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    Post  Podlodka77 Tue Jan 18, 2022 1:23 pm

    Big_Gazza wrote:IMHO the Husky/Laika (or whatever next gen design is settled upon) will be built as they will represent the next generation of sub tech.  As awesome as the 855Ms are (every bit as capable as USN Seawolf or Virginias, and more so in many ways) they still represent late 80s/90 concepts.  855Ms are based on K-560 Severodvinsk (laid down in 1993) with a design refresh and newer systems, while the 545 is expected to pioneer new technologies such much improved silencing techniques and the use of composites for (outer) hull, control surfaces, screws etc. Maybe reactor improvements and automation advances?

    Russia has an absolute ripper of an SSGN in the Yasen class, with weapons to match, and I think they need a minimum of 12 units (6 North, 6 Pacific), but the Black Enemy in Mordor isn't resting and he is utterly unhinged. It makes no sense to rest on your laurels and omit to make plans for the next generation.

    All newly built Russian and US submarines are SSGN in fact, because Virginia also has VLS. But yes, the production of 885M submarines still has to continue, but the construction of a new project has to start also. And I wrote that it is necessary to build at least 10 to 12 submarines of the 885M project, while other new submarines could be of lower displacement but not with less firepower than the Virginia class (Block 1 - Block 4). I don't think the Russians will go below 10,000 tons of full displacement, but only time will tell. The Russians did show a model of proposed 545A (11 340 tons full displacement), but I don't think the submarine shown at exhibit is what will actually be built.

    Mir
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    Post  Mir Tue Jan 18, 2022 3:48 pm

    All newly built Russian and US submarines are SSGN in fact

    I think the new "up to 72 missiles" submarine is about to erase the blurry line between these two classes. Laughing
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    Post  LMFS Tue Jan 18, 2022 11:31 pm

    Big_Gazza wrote:IMHO the Husky/Laika (or whatever next gen design is settled upon) will be built as they will represent the next generation of sub tech.  As awesome as the 855Ms are (every bit as capable as USN Seawolf or Virginias, and more so in many ways) they still represent late 80s/90 concepts.  855Ms are based on K-560 Severodvinsk (laid down in 1993) with a design refresh and newer systems, while the 545 is expected to pioneer new technologies such much improved silencing techniques and the use of composites for (outer) hull, control surfaces, screws etc. Maybe reactor improvements and automation advances?

    Russia has an absolute ripper of an SSGN in the Yasen class, with weapons to match, and I think they need a minimum of 12 units (6 North, 6 Pacific), but the Black Enemy in Mordor isn't resting and he is utterly unhinged. It makes no sense to rest on your laurels and omit to make plans for the next generation.
    The issue is that USN has a very big advantage in numbers, which can allow them to dedicate lots of resources to track Russian subs and restrict them notably. China is not quite there in subs technology to help Russia carry the burden, but probably in the next few years they will develop both numbers and quality and the Anglos will have their hands more than full to handle them together with VMF.



    Podlodka77 wrote:All newly built Russian and US submarines are SSGN in fact, because Virginia also has VLS. But yes, the production of 885M submarines still has to continue, but the construction of a new project has to start also. And I wrote that it is necessary to build at least 10 to 12 submarines of the 885M project, while other new submarines could be of lower displacement but not with less firepower than the Virginia class (Block 1 - Block 4). I don't think the Russians will go below 10,000 tons of full displacement, but only time will tell. The Russians did show a model of proposed 545A (11 340 tons full displacement), but I don't think the submarine shown at exhibit is what will actually be built.
    They should create way smaller and simpler unmanned subs carrying Tsirkons. That would allow them to bridge the numbers gap for the time being. Of course the Laika is  already a step in that direction (decreasing costs, increasing numbers) which is a pressing need of the VMF, but the unmanned option, given they have technologies like the ones tested with Vityaz for deep dive and autonomous navigation are already available.

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    Isos
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    Post  Isos Wed Jan 19, 2022 12:27 am

    You are wrong. US ships would be at total disadvantage against China in south China sea. They have to keep more than half of their subs for China.

    Russia isn't at disadvantage in terms of number since they also have SSKs. US has only 50 or so subs.

    Russian subs won't fight in the atlantic anyway. Maybe when they will get 50 SSN and a decent number of carrier for air support, but not before.

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    LMFS
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    Post  LMFS Wed Jan 19, 2022 12:41 am

    Isos wrote:You are wrong. US ships would be at total disadvantage against China in south China sea. They have to keep more than half of their subs for China.

    Russia isn't at disadvantage in terms of number since they also have SSKs. US has only 50 or so subs.

    Russian subs won't fight in the atlantic anyway. Maybe when they will get 50 SSN and a decent number of carrier for air support, but not before.
    This has nothing to do with coastal defence and all with big power competition in the world ocean, Russia does not need Tsirkon armed SSNs to defend their territory. They are repeating that they will use those to retaliate against US proper if they cross the line and that they will ask the navy to increase their role in face of the current hostile environment, plus are doing everything they can to develop their blue fleet navy.

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    Post  Big_Gazza Wed Jan 19, 2022 9:33 am

    LMFS wrote:...plus are doing everything they can to develop their blue fleet navy.

    I'd have to dispute that. They are building a fleet to defend home waters and to perform A2AD to prevent the USN from being able to operate carrier and amphibious forces in their near abroad. The ships they are currently building lack endurance for open ocean power projection. Their naval doctrine will remain defensive and require surface naval assets to operate within range of land based support such as air superiority, long range strike and surveillance.

    If the Murkans are stupid enough to want a piece of the Russian Navy they will need to come within range of the Bears claws. IMHO the Russian ability to escalate within their own space is greater than Murkan power projection abilities, especially after the Ruskies demonstrate their firepower by scratching a flat-top or two. Twisted Evil
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    Post  ALAMO Wed Jan 19, 2022 10:35 am

    LMFS wrote:
    This has nothing to do with coastal defence and all with big power competition in the world ocean, Russia does not need Tsirkon armed SSNs to defend their territory. They are repeating that they will use those to retaliate against US proper if they cross the line and that they will ask the navy to increase their role in face of the current hostile environment, plus are doing everything they can to develop their blue fleet navy.

    Isos point is, that when the Russians can cover its territorial waters using diesel subs with high confidence, USN will need to dispatch own nuclear subs to do just same - they have no other option.
    As they operate 50 subs, that means only a dozen can perform ocean based tasks at each theatre. They are on equal with Russia, and heavily outnumbered by the Chinese.
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    Post  TMA1 Wed Jan 19, 2022 2:36 pm

    I think I see what you mean LMFS but I wonder if kindzhal equipped mig-31k aircraft stationed in important trade centers in the Americas wouldnt be a wiser course. I fear zirkon getting into US hands more than kindzhal. I also think aircraft could be defended better than subs stationed close to America
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    Post  Arrow Wed Jan 19, 2022 3:58 pm

    also think aircraft could be defended better than subs stationed close to America LIKE wrote:


    I think the submarine is much better. He can patrol himself for a long time in an area of ​​500 km off the coast of the USA. A 3-knot speed patrol will be very difficult to detect.

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    Podlodka77
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    Post  Podlodka77 Wed Jan 19, 2022 11:35 pm

    I have been following this deepstorm.ru page for years and when that page announces that a submarine has been withdrawn from use - then so be it. K-391 Bratsk is dead.
    I think that this is the last 971 submarine (Bratsk) that the Russians destroyed by its own mistake, like the K-322 Kashalot and K-263 Barnaul submarines, which were not overhauled in time.
    And now 10 of those have left including K-152 Nerpa.
    Pacific fleet;
    1. K-331 NO NAME because "Magadan" name was given to B-602 diesel-electric submarine (PF); repair and slight modernization at Zvezda shipyard to 971U standard, the delivery deadline is 2023.
    2. K-419 Kuzbas (PF); upgraded and modernized at Zvezda to 971U standard. Returned to service 16.03.2016.
    3. K-295 Samara (PF); in overhaul and modernization on 971M standard at Zvezdochka.
    4. K-152 Nerpa; status unknown. It was handed over by the Indian crew to the crew of the K-419 Kuzbas submarine. Some sources mention that after the modernization, it could be handed over to the Pacific Fleet.

    Northern fleet (much better situation);
    1. K-317 Pantera; active,
    2. K-461 Volk; to be upgraded and modernized on 971M standard at Zvezdochka. the delivery deadline is 2023.
    3. K-328 Leopard; was launched after an upgrade to the 971M Standard at Zvezdochka. Waiting for sea trials. Delivery; 2022.
    4. K-154 Tigr; in overhaul at Nerpa from 2019. the delivery deadline is 2023. It is very likely that the submarine will not be upgraded to the 971M standard, but I doubt very much that some essential equipment will not be upgraded.
    5. K-157 Vepr; overhauled at Zvedozchka. Project 971U. Returned to service in may 2020, active.
    6. K-335 Gepard; project 971U, active.

    http://www.deepstorm.ru/DeepStorm.files/45-92/nts/971/list.htm
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    Post  LMFS Thu Jan 20, 2022 1:17 am

    Big_Gazza wrote:I'd have to dispute that. They are building a fleet to defend home waters and to perform A2AD to prevent the USN from being able to operate carrier and amphibious forces in their near abroad.

    They don't even need the Gorshkovs for that, I guarantee you the USN is not planning to operate carriers and LHAs in Russian waters. Their life expectancy would be the brief minutes a MiG-31K gets into launch position or a coastal battery with Tsirkon gets activated.

    Very clearly they have brown, green and blue water ships and once their coast is safe and the naval industry restarted, they are both building each time bigger oceanic vessels and modernizing the existing ones.

     
    The ships they are currently building lack endurance for open ocean power projection.  
    Hence why they design the 22350M, modernize the Udaloys, discuss the Lider, upgrade the Nakhimov etc. Such vessels are totally unnecessary for coastal defence, but badly needed to have the endurance, sea keeping and combat capacity needed to be deployed far from the mainland.

    Their naval doctrine will remain defensive and require surface naval assets to operate within range of land based support such as air superiority, long range strike and surveillance.

    That is not actually correct... you can read their actual doctrine as in strategic plan to 2050 and naval development roadmap to 2030. Defence of the Russian interests in the world ocean is an explicit, high priority goal of the VMF.

    If the Murkans are stupid enough to want a piece of the Russian Navy they will need to come within range of the Bears claws.  IMHO the Russian ability to escalate within their own space is greater than Murkan power projection abilities, especially after the Ruskies demonstrate their firepower by scratching a flat-top or two.  Twisted Evil

    Projecting naval power vs. Russian mainland does not count as an option even for the most delusional American planer, I tell you...

    ALAMO wrote:Isos point is, that when the Russians can cover its territorial waters using diesel subs with high confidence, USN will need to dispatch own nuclear subs to do just same - they have no other option.
    As they operate 50 subs, that means only a dozen can perform ocean based tasks at each theatre. They are on equal with Russia, and heavily outnumbered by the Chinese.

    You have a point, but what Isos said was not that USN is going to be busy with Russian and Chinese subs close to CONUS, but that both Russia and China have the assets needed to defend their coast from US, which is obvious. I agree that USN has developed themselves with such a feeling of self security and with such focus on power projection, that they do not even have the SSKs which are obviously the right tool for defensive purposes. That is why having many Tsirkon armed SSNs and deploying them close to CONUS is a great way to tie up US forces that would otherwise be available for offensive roles far from their territory. Russian military does know how to make plans indeed...

    TMA1 wrote:
    I think I see what you mean LMFS but I wonder if kindzhal equipped mig-31k aircraft stationed in important trade centers in the Americas wouldnt be a wiser course. I fear zirkon getting into US hands more than kindzhal. I also think aircraft could be defended better than subs stationed close to America

    An air base is an option, but it is much more expensive, depends on the political climate at the other side of the world and is a fixed location that needs to be resupplied, maintained, protected from attack, sabotage, infiltration etc. A sub in the middle of the ocean on the other hand does not need permission from anyone, buy loyalty from anyone or to strain relationships with your allies to come and go as you please, all while having the surprise factor of not having a known position and therefore complicating a lot the setup of the AD or ASW forces needed to counter its presence, which will badly strain the US military budget. It is much easier and achieves as much or even more, hence a better solution overall, at least for the time being. When Russia's clout and economy grows, some air bases here and there will make sense indeed.

    See, a guy that really knows his thing (General Kartapolov) stating a much around minute 4:

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    George1
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    Post  George1 Tue May 03, 2022 8:40 am

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