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    Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

    Podlodka77
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    Post  Podlodka77 Mon Jan 17, 2022 9:02 pm

    Mir wrote:
    Hole wrote:There will be 2 more Borej class subs laid down and that´s it (for a few years at least). That side of the construction building will be free, the other will be used for more Yassen´s. There is space to build 2 - 3 Laikas for every Borej. Do the math yourself. Very Happy  This class can be build up very fast. Well, after the long testing phase for the first one, of course.

    There are actually two boat houses for construction so they can probably produce even more?

    Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion - Page 26 Ssn-ge10

    @Podlodka7
    Papa_Dragon is right about the Ulyanovsk. It has been laid down in 2017 already so the name is out there on a brass plate and is sited as such by many sources.

    Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion - Page 26 P885-c10

    I hope he is right too, but the "worm of doubt" has been cast. That submarine on the picture is the K-335 Gepard.
    Mir
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    Post  Mir Mon Jan 17, 2022 9:15 pm

    Yes I know - great submarine!

    I am just going to replace my last pic with one with more recent info.
    Hole
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    Post  Hole Mon Jan 17, 2022 9:40 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    That article from HI Sutton is ancient and so is that table you posted (2018)

    Production of Yasens is now up to speed hence Husky has been shelved since there's no more need for them

    Why would Russian Navy give up superior platform which is being built fast for inferior one which will inevitably suffer development and construction delays?

    They already said that Yasen construction will be extended




    Husky/Laika was shown last year in the defence exhibition for the top brass in the MoD building, including Putin and Shoigu.

    And it is needed, because numbers!

    Construction wise the 885M nearly equals a 955A. But they won´t stop the production of them either. 885M and Laika will be build side by side. They could complement each other.

    The 885M is like a Tu-22M3 or the new PAK-DA. The Laika will be like a Su-35. And the VKS doesn´t consist solely of medium-range missile carriers. Why should the Navy?

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    Krepost
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    Post  Krepost Mon Jan 17, 2022 10:20 pm

    Hey, I can also be an armchair-general (or admiral) and join in with the speculations and fan-boyism about future Russian Sub construction plans:

    Borei production will be curtailed in a few years because of START limitations. The class will be limited to 12 or maybe upto 14.

    Sevmash can produce both the Yasen and Laika (or whatever) at the same time.

    Yasens will be the US carrier group hunters
    Laikas will be hounding the US SSBNs

    I expect Laika to be smaller than Yasen, very fast, highly automated and with a crew of no more than 40 people. A modern day variant of the Soviet Alpha class.

    By the way, Laika is a Russian dog breed. It is a tough animal with great endurance. Siberian hunters use them to hunt Moose, Wild Boars, Bears and SSBNs.

    / end of speculations.

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    PapaDragon
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    Post  PapaDragon Mon Jan 17, 2022 10:38 pm

    Hole wrote:Husky/Laika was shown last year in the defence exhibition for the top brass in the MoD building, including Putin and Shoigu....

    Shitload of random stuff gets shown on defense exibitions all the time

    It doesn't mean that it is getting made

    Yasen is in production, Husky isn't

    They announced more Yasens will get ordered, no Huskies are being planned

    Isos
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    Post  Isos Mon Jan 17, 2022 11:03 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Hole wrote:Husky/Laika was shown last year in the defence exhibition for the top brass in the MoD building, including Putin and Shoigu....

    Shitload of random stuff gets shown on defense exibitions all the time

    It doesn't mean that it is getting made

    Yasen is in production, Husky isn't

    They announced more Yasens will get ordered, no Huskies are being planned


    Well if you ask me husky is more likely than was that Lider cruiser or Shtorm carrier.

    They rely a lot on subs and Yasen isn't a replacement for Akulas which will need replacement one day or another. The upgrades gave them maybe 10-15 (20 at best years) but they won't be competitive for a long time. Nato are also building new subs and their new frigates are deadly in ASW specially french ones.

    IMO they will very soon anounce and lay down the first Husky.

    And by Husky I mean their new SSN with less VLS than Yasen and size 120m long. Not those fancy design from twitter or expos.

    Moreover most of Yasens will be finished before 2030. So they will need to build something in those shipyards.

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    Arkanghelsk
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    Post  Arkanghelsk Mon Jan 17, 2022 11:10 pm

    Sevmash is very busy with yasen... I'd give it several years before first one is laid down, with Akulas being modernized and given more years of service.

    They will come but probably in 2030 timeline

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    LMFS
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    Post  LMFS Tue Jan 18, 2022 1:33 am

    Podlodka77 wrote:
    Amur, why ? There is no need for that. Sevmash is not the problem but maybe money is.
    Its hard to believe but older russian submarines are longer in modernization than new submarines spend in construction.
    Russian Navy commissioned nuclear submarines in 2022: 3 885 and 885M, 2 945A, 2 671 RTM(K), 7 949A, 10 971 = 24. Only 2 of those of the project 971 (Gepard and Nerpa) could survive until 2040 and maybe those titanium 945A submarines. Everything else will be 45+ years old.
    If Russia continues like this than RN will have as much multipurpose submarines as France and UK combined and thats not enough. They need to start with the construction of more and more 885M submarines or 545A,  or whatever submarines that will replace those 971 submarines in the next decade. And there will be a few more submarines of the 09851 (2 or 3 subs in 2030) project and thats all.

    As I wrote, the problem is not Sevmash, the problem is whether there is money for all that and whether there will be money in the near future. why do i mention money ? I just can not believe that 10+ years are needed for the K-328 Leopard modernization. So whats the problem, incompetent repair plant or money or both of those things together ? How is it possible to build a submarine sooner at Sevmash than to finish modernization of the Leopard submarine? I have only one explanation; priority list of the russian MOD.
    1. Borei; 5 submarines have already been put into service, 4 more are under construction and one has been launched; 5 + 4 + 1 = 10. Also, two more are to be laid down next year and that already 12
    2. Yasen? Just 8 submarines because there is also 09851 project or Habarovsk class. And that Habarovsk class will "eat" some portion of those 885M subs. I would rather see 12 885M and 8 Borei than opposite. So in 2030 we will have just 8 885/885M submarines and 2 or 3 09851 submarines if something doesn't change in the meantime.
    MORE YASEN or 545A or whatever class of true multipurpose submarines and less novelty like 09851, thats all..

    You are making my case better than I would do. A second shipyard is needed precisely because there are few SS(G)N in the Russian navy and Sevmash, despite their top performance, has their hands more than full already. Besides, you cannot risk that a fire or anything happens at Sevmash that leaves you totally screwed.

    Also you cannot wait a decade for getting beyond a clearly insufficient amount of hulls, hence why you need to modernize older, still sufficiently capable designs as the 971s are. Even worse, if you do not maintain them you will decommission them at the same rough speed (or even more) than you build Yasens, shooting yourself in the feet real bad.

    As to the time needed for the repairs, there are certainly industrial capability issues involved, but also probably decisions that were delayed at the VMF command. In the latest years, coinciding with the testes of the Tsirkon, there has been a significant increase in the repair activity and most of the available 971 units are expected to be returned to the fleet within a couple of years. When they see the need of increasing the numbers (maybe to provide cover for Tsirkon carriers and spread the USN sub fleet thinner) they have directed the money and resources and it seems results are coming.
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    Post  Podlodka77 Tue Jan 18, 2022 1:55 am

    LMFS wrote:
    Podlodka77 wrote:
    Amur, why ? There is no need for that. Sevmash is not the problem but maybe money is.
    Its hard to believe but older russian submarines are longer in modernization than new submarines spend in construction.
    Russian Navy commissioned nuclear submarines in 2022: 3 885 and 885M, 2 945A, 2 671 RTM(K), 7 949A, 10 971 = 24. Only 2 of those of the project 971 (Gepard and Nerpa) could survive until 2040 and maybe those titanium 945A submarines. Everything else will be 45+ years old.
    If Russia continues like this than RN will have as much multipurpose submarines as France and UK combined and thats not enough. They need to start with the construction of more and more 885M submarines or 545A,  or whatever submarines that will replace those 971 submarines in the next decade. And there will be a few more submarines of the 09851 (2 or 3 subs in 2030) project and thats all.

    As I wrote, the problem is not Sevmash, the problem is whether there is money for all that and whether there will be money in the near future. why do i mention money ? I just can not believe that 10+ years are needed for the K-328 Leopard modernization. So whats the problem, incompetent repair plant or money or both of those things together ? How is it possible to build a submarine sooner at Sevmash than to finish modernization of the Leopard submarine? I have only one explanation; priority list of the russian MOD.
    1. Borei; 5 submarines have already been put into service, 4 more are under construction and one has been launched; 5 + 4 + 1 = 10. Also, two more are to be laid down next year and that already 12
    2. Yasen? Just 8 submarines because there is also 09851 project or Habarovsk class. And that Habarovsk class will "eat" some portion of those 885M subs. I would rather see 12 885M and 8 Borei than opposite. So in 2030 we will have just 8 885/885M submarines and 2 or 3 09851 submarines if something doesn't change in the meantime.
    MORE YASEN or 545A or whatever class of true multipurpose submarines and less novelty like 09851, thats all..

    You are making my case better than I would do. A second shipyard is needed precisely because there are few SS(G)N in the Russian navy and Sevmash, despite their top performance, has their hands more than full already. Besides, you cannot risk that a fire or anything happens at Sevmash that leaves you totally screwed.

    Also you cannot wait a decade for getting beyond a clearly insufficient amount of hulls, hence why you need to modernize older, still sufficiently capable designs as the 971s are. Even worse, if you do not maintain them you will decommission them at the same rough speed (or even more) than you build Yasens, shooting yourself in the feet real bad.

    As to the time needed for the repairs, there are certainly industrial capability issues involved, but also probably decisions that were delayed at the VMF command. In the latest years, coinciding with the testes of the Tsirkon, there has been a significant increase in the repair activity and most of the available 971 units are expected to be returned to the fleet within a couple of years. When they see the need of increasing the numbers (maybe to provide cover for Tsirkon carriers and spread the USN sub fleet thinner) they have directed the money and resources and it seems results are coming.

    13 submarines are under construction in Sevmash, while three of those numbers have already been launched and those are; G. Suvorov (955A), K-571 Krasnoyarsk (885M) and K-329 Belgorod (09852)..

    10 subs are under construction indoors,
    1. 955A Borei-A; Imperator Alexandr III, Pozharskiy, Knyaz Potemkin and Dmitri Donskoy. 4 submarines in total..
    2. 885M Yasen-M; Arkhangelsk, Perm, Ulyanovsk (if it belong to the 885M), Voronezh, Vladivostok. 5 subs in total..
    3. 09851; Habarovsk...1 submarine...
    That means 4 + 5 + 1 = 10. But 3 more subs could be launched this year; Imperator Alexandr III (955A), K-564 Arkhangelsk (885M) and Habarovsk of the project 09851. Sou you have a lot of space for new keels because there will be only 7 submarines left in the factory buildings, but next year the laying of keels for two new submarines of the 955A project will begin..


    Launched in 2022; Imperator Alexandr III (955A), K-564 Arkhangelsk (885M) and Habarovsk of the project 09851.
    Launched in 2023; Knyaz Pozharskiy (955A), Perm (885M) and maybe even Ulyanovsk will be launched next year. 5 to 6 submarines should be launched in the next twoo years.
    You only have 4 submarines under construction whose construction will take a few more years and they are; Potemkin, Donskoy, Vladivostok and Voronezh. All the others are nearing the end of construction. Add to that two Borei submarines from next year. This means that in 2024 there will be only 6 submarines within the factory walls under construction and that leaves space for additional multipurpose subs.
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    Post  LMFS Tue Jan 18, 2022 2:25 am

    Podlodka77 wrote:
    13 submarines are under construction in Sevmash, while three of those numbers have already been launched and those are; G. Suvorov (955A), K-571 Krasnoyarsk (885M) and K-329 Belgorod (09852)..

    10 subs are under construction indoors,
    1. 955A Borei-A; Imperator Alexandr III, Pozharskiy, Knyaz Potemkin and Dmitri Donskoy. 4 submarines in total..
    2. 885M Yasen-M; Arkhangelsk, Perm, Ulyanovsk (if it belong to the 885M), Voronezh, Vladivostok. 5 subs in total..
    3. 09851; Habarovsk...1 submarine...
    That means 4 + 5 + 1 = 10. But 3 more subs could be launched this year; Imperator Alexandr III (955A), K-564 Arkhangelsk (885M) and Habarovsk of the project 09851. Sou you have a lot of space for new keels because there will be only 7 submarines left in the factory buildings, but next year the laying of keels for two new submarines of the 955A project will begin..


    Launched in 2022; Imperator Alexandr III (955A), K-564 Arkhangelsk (885M) and Habarovsk of the project 09851.
    Launched in 2023; Knyaz Pozharskiy (955A), Perm (885M) and maybe even Ulyanovsk will be launched next year. 5 to 6 submarines should be launched in the next twoo years.
    You only have 4 submarines under construction whose construction will take a few more years and they are; Potemkin, Donskoy, Vladivostok and Voronezh. All the others are nearing the end of construction. Add to that two Borei submarines from next year. This means that in 2024 there will be only 6 submarines within the factory walls under construction and that leaves space for additional multipurpose subs.

    Yes, of course, they should keep up the good job. That does not prevent that the average speed of construction and numbers expected by end of the decade are clearly insufficient. You would finish this decade with less SSNs in the fleet that you started it, unless you modernize the 971 and the 949. And from then onwards you need to build even more, to increase a way too small fleet and to do it while compensating for the units that are not worth modernizing anymore and need to be retired. You need to consider that, disregarding other NATO and potential adversary fleets, VMF needs to tackle the 50 (and counting) SSNs of the USN, this is not a small job and demands to at least double the amount of SSNs asap. When USSR had two shipyards for nuclear subs, it was for a good reason.

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    PapaDragon
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    Post  PapaDragon Tue Jan 18, 2022 4:46 am


    If they want second SSGN class they should do it in different shipyard

    Stopping construction of Yasens just to switch to inferior platform would be idiotic

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    Post  Mir Tue Jan 18, 2022 7:13 am

    The Russians have now fully developed this new 3D design technology for their sub construction. There will be no point in using it for an old design like the 885's unless they want to do upgrades on it. This tech is primarily designed with the new gen subs in mind.
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    Post  ALAMO Tue Jan 18, 2022 8:21 am

    Mir wrote:The Russians have now fully developed this new 3D design technology for their sub construction. There will be no point in using it for an old design like the 885's unless they want to do upgrades on it. This tech is primarily designed with the new gen subs in mind.

    Not sure what do you mean by that, but I can assure you that 3D design is kinda standard for any shipyard for ... 30 years I would say.
    The most common soft for that task is called Tribon, and as for now, they are some subdivision of Wartsila. Russians are operating it either and for example, Admiralty yard uses a full cycle support system from Tribon, including designing, contracting & purchasing.
    It is just same story for all the big players, half of China's business is using Tribon, too.
    There is a dedicated AVEVA solution that is quite common in Russia as well, but for smaller and private yards. Some of my buds work for them as contract engineers.
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    Post  Mir Tue Jan 18, 2022 8:43 am

    Yes I should have rather referred to it as 3D design in a virtual reality environment Embarassed

    Here is a screenshot of it from Combat Approved. They started using it on the 885M design which should radically speed up the design process.

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    Post  ALAMO Tue Jan 18, 2022 9:22 am

    This kind of 3D visualization is in use for years as well and has one serious advantage.
    You can check "live" the collision points.
    Sometimes what looks just fine on the screen, turns out impossible to implement in real, as you can't have the access to the mounting points, or the space left there is too narrow to install a pipe, or whatever.
    I think about that, changing the bulbs in my wife's car Laughing that was designed to be operated by the hands of North Koreans at most Laughing Laughing because I can put there half of my hand Laughing Laughing Laughing
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    Post  Mir Tue Jan 18, 2022 9:30 am

    Yes the tech itself is not new.
    Fortunately "Russians" are real size people except for the presenter Laughing
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    Post  ALAMO Tue Jan 18, 2022 9:40 am

    It is getting kind of standard for modern industry, thing spreads along with the automotive like fire. Especially for training purposes.
    Su-57 is made the same way, and all the training of a workers is being made with 3D visualisation.
    One just approaches the hull, and he "sees" all the locations of joints, how to place a cable or a pipe - it is all there in 3D visual applied on a real hull.
    The future is now! Very Happy
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    Post  Mir Tue Jan 18, 2022 10:02 am

    It sure is impressive and Malakhit now has gained some serious experience on the 885M's so I can't wait to see the new 5th gen subs. 2025 should be a good year for Russia Smile
    Now that you mention the Su-57 in the same breath. That 3D printed skeleton structure of the Su-57 is very exciting stuff for the future as well!
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    Post  Podlodka77 Tue Jan 18, 2022 10:51 am

    LMFS wrote:
    Podlodka77 wrote:
    13 submarines are under construction in Sevmash, while three of those numbers have already been launched and those are; G. Suvorov (955A), K-571 Krasnoyarsk (885M) and K-329 Belgorod (09852)..

    10 subs are under construction indoors,
    1. 955A Borei-A; Imperator Alexandr III, Pozharskiy, Knyaz Potemkin and Dmitri Donskoy. 4 submarines in total..
    2. 885M Yasen-M; Arkhangelsk, Perm, Ulyanovsk (if it belong to the 885M), Voronezh, Vladivostok. 5 subs in total..
    3. 09851; Habarovsk...1 submarine...
    That means 4 + 5 + 1 = 10. But 3 more subs could be launched this year; Imperator Alexandr III (955A), K-564 Arkhangelsk (885M) and Habarovsk of the project 09851. Sou you have a lot of space for new keels because there will be only 7 submarines left in the factory buildings, but next year the laying of keels for two new submarines of the 955A project will begin..


    Launched in 2022; Imperator Alexandr III (955A), K-564 Arkhangelsk (885M) and Habarovsk of the project 09851.
    Launched in 2023; Knyaz Pozharskiy (955A), Perm (885M) and maybe even Ulyanovsk will be launched next year. 5 to 6 submarines should be launched in the next twoo years.
    You only have 4 submarines under construction whose construction will take a few more years and they are; Potemkin, Donskoy, Vladivostok and Voronezh. All the others are nearing the end of construction. Add to that two Borei submarines from next year. This means that in 2024 there will be only 6 submarines within the factory walls under construction and that leaves space for additional multipurpose subs.

    Yes, of course, they should keep up the good job. That does not prevent that the average speed of construction and numbers expected by end of the decade are clearly insufficient. You would finish this decade with less SSNs in the fleet that you started it, unless you modernize the 971 and the 949. And from then onwards you need to build even more, to increase a way too small fleet and to do it while compensating for the units that are not worth modernizing anymore and need to be retired. You need to consider that, disregarding other NATO and potential adversary fleets, VMF needs to tackle the 50 (and counting) SSNs of the USN, this is not a small job and demands to at least double the amount of SSNs asap. When USSR had two shipyards for nuclear subs, it was for a good reason.

    The problem is not Sevmash, but the problem is that there are not enough multi-purpose submarines under construction - there are currently no new contracts.
    Sevmash was also put in order quite late, but if you see the number of 13 nuclear submarines in that shipyard, then you will see that no country in the world is building so many nuclear submarines at the same time. Sevmash has delivered 4 submarines to the Navy in the last 2 years. I think that the only problem in the whole story is the Ministry of Defense of Russia and that there are no new contracts for the construction of an additional number of multi-purpose submarines.
    The Russians have given absolute priority to the 955A project. I do not believe that Russia will have 50 multi-purpose nuclear submarines.
    Look at the U.S., only 19 Virginia-class submarines have been delivered in 17 years, although in the U.S. they are building those submarines in TWOO shipyards - General Dynamics Electric Boat and Huntington Ingalls Industries. Until recently, only the Virginia class was under construction in the United States. And those Virginia's are far smaller submarines than 885M project or 09851, and not even for comparison with 955A or with "Belgorod" submarine.
    It is certain that it would be good to have another shipyard that would build nuclear submarines, but the Russians made a perhaps wrong decision earlier to exclude Krasnoye Sormovo and Amur shipyards.
    I think it is necessary to start the construction of at least 6 to 8 new multi-purpose submarines in Sevmash during this decade.



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    Post  Arrow Tue Jan 18, 2022 10:57 am

    The US seems to have already started building Columbia.  So far, there is no information or even indications that Russia should start building nuclear submarines in other shipyards.  Sevmash remains.  The construction of almost 13 nuclear submarines is very impressive Shocked
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    Post  Podlodka77 Tue Jan 18, 2022 11:05 am

    Arrow wrote:The US seems to have already started building Columbia.  So far, there is no information or even indications that Russia should start building nuclear submarines in other shipyards.  Sevmash remains.  The construction of almost 13 nuclear submarines is very impressive Shocked

    No, not almost but exactly 13 submarines....
    Launched; K-329 Belgorod, K-571 Krasnoyarsk, Gen. Suvorov,
    In construction (project 955A); Imperator Alexandr III, Knyaz Pozharskiy, Knyaz Potemkin, Dmitriy Donskoy,
    In construction (project 885M);  K-564 Arkhangelsk, Perm, Ulyanovsk (09851 or 885M), Vladivostok and Voronezh.
    In construction (project 09851); Habarovsk.
    Podlodka77
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    Post  Podlodka77 Tue Jan 18, 2022 11:27 am

    SEVMASH capacities (important) and some predictions for the future, which is not so important.

    According to available data, the capabilities of Sevmash's slipway production allow the construction of 14 nuclear submarines at the same time - 8 in workshop No. 50 (two docks 302.5x44.4 m with two slip lines in each) and 6 in workshop No. 55 (one dock 373.6x78.0 m with three slip lines). Currently, 13 orders are under construction, two of which are afloat.
    Starting from 2028, when workshop No. 55, as I hope, will be completely occupied with aircraft carriers, only workshop No. 50 with four slip lines will remain for the main products of the NSR (the third covered boathouse of slipway delivery production - workshop No. 42 - apparently , is intended for dock repair and modernization of special-purpose submarines, for which its ship-lifting device (slip) was reconstructed not so long ago. The length of the slipway line of workshop No. 50 is insufficient to accommodate one building 955 and one 885 (Lnb x Vnb - 170x13.5 and 139x13.0 m, respectively), however, in the proposed schedule, starting from 2028, there will be no more than 1-2 "Boreev-A" and 6-7 "Husky", and the length of the "Husky" is expected to be noticeably less than the length of the "Ash". In addition, the construction technology does not at all imply the presence of two full-length buildings on the slipway line - one of them can be assembled completely, the other can consist of only a few block sections.

    https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwiDhNn7ibv1AhXJ3KQKHW0MAW0QFnoECA4QAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fnavy-korabel.livejournal.com%2Ftag%2F%25D0%25A1%25D0%25B5%25D0%25B2%25D0%25BC%25D0%25B0%25D1%2588&usg=AOvVaw1L2R-scmI5bjgWsokdGFyA

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    Mir
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    Post  Mir Tue Jan 18, 2022 12:09 pm

    but the Russians made a perhaps wrong decision earlier to exclude Krasnoye Sormovo

    Don't recall these guys ever building submarines - let alone nuclear one's?
    They sort of specialize in Raketa hydrofoil boats and small cruise ships.
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    Post  ALAMO Tue Jan 18, 2022 12:14 pm

    Sure they did.
    Sierras were built there.

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    Mir
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    Post  Mir Tue Jan 18, 2022 12:15 pm

    Yes indeed I should have checked my own notes! Laughing

    Kilo as well.

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