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    Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

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    Arrow


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    Post  Arrow Fri Jan 07, 2022 3:31 pm

    I agree with Papa Dragon. Well, the Husky was supposed to be a cheaper and smaller version of Yasen M. Currently, the production of these ships is going very well. Yasen M is better armed. I think the price is also satisfactory. About $ 800 million for such a dangerous killer. New solutions for the silencing of ships can be developed in the next 885M units.
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    Post  Podlodka77 Fri Jan 07, 2022 4:43 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Husky/Laika was suggested as a solution for increasing submarine fleet back when construction of Yasens was extremely slow and it was a smaller boat with compromises (like when Seawolf got cut in favor of Virginias)

    The thig is that construction of Yasens is no longer slow, it's in fact really fast and there are no reasons to stop building them now




    Well, its not fast enough either. Yes, we have twoo new 885M submarines commissioned in last year and those that are already in construction will be built much faster, but there are not enough of those submarines laid down - simply not enough. Russia needs at least no less than 24 multipurpose nuclear submarines in 4 divisions with 6 submarines in each division - 2 for Pacific and at least 2 for Northern fleet.
    1. Most newest 971 class submarines are "Samara" (1995) and "Vepr" (1995) and both of those submarines will be 40 years old in 2035, with the exception of "Gepard" (2001) and "Nerpa" (2009), if this submarine stays in Russia as it is rumoured that she will stay.
    2. Project 949A; My opinion is that all 949A submarines from Northern fleet will be decomissioned by the end of this decade and only 3 will still be in service in Pacific fleet; "Irkutsk" (1988), "Chelyabinsk" (1990) and probably "Tomsk" (1996).
    3. Project 945A; titanium hulls, everything is possible here, because thay say in Russia that those submarines could serve twice as long opposed to submarines with steel hulls - but than thay need to go through deep modernisation.
    Thay need to speed up construction process..I am sure that Russians do know what they are doing but i am impatient. russia
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    Post  George1 Fri Jan 07, 2022 5:32 pm

    Podlodka77 wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:
    Husky/Laika was suggested as a solution for increasing submarine fleet back when construction of Yasens was extremely slow and it was a smaller boat with compromises (like when Seawolf got cut in favor of Virginias)

    The thig is that construction of Yasens is no longer slow, it's in fact really fast and there are no reasons to stop building them now




    Well, its not fast enough either. Yes, we have twoo new 885M submarines commissioned in last year and those that are already in construction will be built much faster, but there are not enough of those submarines laid down - simply not enough. Russia needs at least no less than 24 multipurpose nuclear submarines in 4 divisions with 6 submarines in each division - 2 for Pacific and at least 2 for Northern fleet.
    1. Most newest 971 class submarines are "Samara" (1995) and "Vepr" (1995) and both of those submarines will be 40 years old in 2035, with the exception of "Gepard" (2001) and "Nerpa" (2009), if this submarine stays in Russia as it is rumoured that she will stay.
    2. Project 949A; My opinion is that all 949A submarines from Northern fleet will be decomissioned by the end of this decade and only 3 will still be in service in Pacific fleet; "Irkutsk" (1988), "Chelyabinsk" (1990) and probably "Tomsk" (1996).
    3. Project 945A; titanium hulls, everything is possible here, because thay say in Russia that those submarines could serve twice as long opposed to submarines with steel hulls - but than thay need to go through deep modernisation.
    Thay need to speed up construction process..I am sure that Russians do know what they are doing but i am impatient. russia

    it is so obvious that you are the known chinese troller, which i have banned 20 accounts of him, since you insist constantly on construction time and speed

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    Podlodka77


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    Post  Podlodka77 Fri Jan 07, 2022 5:37 pm

    Nope, i am not. Не, ја нисам кинески трол и ја сам Србин... (no, i am not a chinese troll and i am a Serbian)...
    Dont be rude, brother, because we Serbs dont like that.

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    Post  Podlodka77 Fri Jan 14, 2022 10:31 am

    ТАSS

    On the way to the fifth generation: why the Russian submarine fleet was digitized and turned into blocks ?
    Dmitry Litovkin - on the development of nuclear submarines on the example of "Ash" (Yasen) and "Borei"

    At the end of 2021, Sevmash, the Severodvinsk machine-building enterprise, handed over two nuclear submarines to military sailors: a Project 885M Yasen-M multi-purpose submarine under the name Novosibirsk and a Project 995A Borei-A strategic cruiser Prince Oleg. The originality of this event is that after the delivery of the previous nuclear submarine "Kazan" to the Navy, only six months have passed, and two more missile carriers are being taken out of the boathouse of the world's largest shipbuilding enterprise.
    This has not happened in the history of our Navy since Soviet times. In the near future, both submarines will make the transition to the Pacific Fleet. Their appearance will seriously enhance its combat potential, the country's resources to deter potential external aggression.

    Pies in the projection

    On "Sevmash" they liked to joke sadly that "they learned how to lay submarines - now it remains to learn how to hand them over." The ceremony regarding the first process is simple: in a huge workshop, with a gathering of workers and Moscow commissars, a metal beam or section of the future ship is placed to the sounds of an orchestra and solemn speeches, a special copper plate is screwed to it. That is how on December 21, 1993, the construction of the first "Ash" and "Borea" began. Then, as invited guests, and in fact lobbyists, they invited Moscow Mayor Yuri Luzhkov and the "chief privatizer" Anatoly Chubais.

    Delivery of the project is more difficult and can take years. So, the first ship of the 885th project - "Severodvinsk" - was transferred to the fleet only in 2009. At the same time, sea trials of the strategic cruiser of the 955th project, Yuri Dolgoruky, began. Such a long time for the construction of boats was primarily associated with the general crisis of the military-industrial complex.The country was literally unable to finance the creation of new weapons systems - "Severodvinsk" and "Yuri Dolgoruky", as they say, were molded from what was, for example, from parts of unfinished submarines of other projects that remained at Sevmash. At the same time, the first "Ash" became a real catalog of defense industry products - in the hope of future orders from the state, numerous developers of weapons systems laid down in its project all the available and only being developed products.

    The first "Ash" and "Borey" became to some extent an analogy of the Lego constructor, both new production technologies and equipment were worked out on them. This explains why only from the third nuclear submarine - "Novosibirsk" - and the fifth strategic cruiser - "Prince Oleg" - the submarines began to be called serial (built according to a single approved documentation, with standard equipment and weapons systems). Thus, the groundwork was nevertheless made - the Navy received a new generation of submarines and was able to understand in practice what is good and what is bad in them.

    During the ceremony of handing over the ships to sailors at the end of 2021, timed to coincide with the final board of the Ministry of Defense, Supreme Commander-in-Chief, President Vladimir Putin mentioned that plans for the further construction of the nuclear submarine fleet involve the creation of six more multi-purpose 885M nuclear submarines and five project 955A missile carriers.
    At the same event, the Commander-in-Chief of the Navy, Admiral Nikolai Evmenov, emphasized: "The fleet is satisfied with these ships. It is at the request of the fleet, based on the operation of the previous series, that Borey-A is being made. It is quieter, it has a lot of positive characteristics. Everything that was laid down in it, is confirmed in the sea. I think that the next ships will be even better: there is a progressive movement forward. I fully subscribe to the words said by the director of "Sevmash" Mikhail Budnichenko, namely that for more than twenty years there has not been such mass laying, and construction, and acceptance of ships. Our country has not received so many missile submarines since 1991."

    According to Budnichenko, in 2021 Sevmash not only handed over to the customer three nuclear submarines - Kazan, Knyaz Oleg, Novosibirsk, but also began state tests on the Belgorod nuclear submarine, laid down two new strategic cruisers Dmitry Donskoy" and "Prince Potemkin", brought the newest multi-purpose boat "Krasnoyarsk" and the nuclear submarine "Generalissimo Suvorov" out of the shed. In fact, this exceeds the performance of the two leading American shipyards Electric Boat in Groton and Northrop Grumman Shipbuilding in Newport News. Together they produce two submarines annually. And the British analogue of "Sevmash" in Barrow has built only five nuclear-powered submarines since the beginning of the century.

    QUIETER THAN WATER

    As part of the naval nuclear forces of the Russian Federation, ships of project 955 are changing nuclear boats of project 667. Currently, from a whole series of nuclear-powered ships with different indices from the letter "A" to "M" and names - "Navaga", "Andromeda", "Pear", " Squid" and "Dolphin" - only the last two remained. In the middle of the 2000s, they underwent a deep modernization and, until recently, formed the basis of our naval nuclear deterrence forces.They are equipped with new hydroacoustic stations, reactor nuclear safety systems, low-noise propellers and new Sineva or Liner strategic missile systems. In the event of a conflict from the Barents Sea, these nuclear-powered ships are capable of launching 320 high-yield nuclear warheads into North America.

    Project 955 is the next page in the development of the nuclear submarine fleet. Borei are the first Russian nuclear submarines, where the propulsion is carried out not by propellers, but by means of a single-shaft water-jet propulsion system with high propulsion characteristics.The ships have special retractable thrusters such as Azipod; using a hinged mechanism, they can rotate around a vertical or horizontal axis by 360 degrees (which allows the submarine to move in any direction: bow, stern or side, turn around in one place and at the same time remain completely invisible, since Azipod propellers are driven by electricity) . The boats are five times less noisy than the ships of previous projects.

    The former commander of the nuclear submarine missile cruiser "Alexander Nevsky", Captain 1st Rank Vasily Tankovid, told TASS earlier that in 2015 he made a 42-day Arctic inter-fleet transition under the ice of the Arctic, having passed five seas and two oceans from the Northern Fleet to the Pacific Fleet. "The United States failed to detect and follow us. They learned about our appearance in the waters of the Pacific Ocean only when the nuclear missile carrier arrived at a permanent base in Kamchatka in Vilyuchinsk," the officer noted.
    I will also add that boats of this class are equipped with the latest hydroacoustic stations of the Irtysh-Amphora type. This is an automated digital complex that combines the capabilities of noise direction finding, echo direction finding, target classification and communication. It combines "small acoustic" stations into a single information space, designed to measure ice thickness, sound speed, search for sea mines, torpedoes, polynyas and leads. Experts say that in terms of range, the complex is superior to a similar system on the latest American boats of the Virginia type.
    And to top it all off, the Borea deployed the latest Bulava intercontinental ballistic missiles, which carry up to six individually targetable nuclear warheads. The launch range of these missiles allows our submariners to hit targets located in the other hemisphere of the Earth, both from combat patrol areas and directly from their bases, as they say - from the pier.

    SUBMARINE INTERCEPTOR

    According to unconfirmed reports, one "Borey" costs the budget 23 billion rubles, and "Ash" - in excess of 200 billion (no wonder that the boats of the 885 project are among the most secret in the Russian fleet). Western analysts often compare the Yasen in terms of combat capabilities with American submarines of the Seawolf type (of which there are only three - for financial reasons, further construction was abandoned). One such nuclear-powered ship cost the budget $4.4 billion. For comparison: the last Nimitz-class nuclear-powered aircraft carriers, together with the air group, cost no more than $5 billion, and one nuclear submarine of the previous Los Angeles-class project costs only $741 million.

    Unlike the latest fourth-generation strategic submarines of the fourth generation of the 955 Borey-class project (the new technical stuffing of which is no more than 40%), the boats of the 885 project have all systems, components and mechanisms completely new, never used anywhere before . According to shipbuilding industry experts, this is high-tech equipment that has no analogues in the Soviet and Russian military shipbuilding.

    To illustrate this, an example is given that the 885 project uses a compromise mixed design system - the light hull "covers" only part of the more wear-resistant base in the bow of the submarine to reduce noise. The ship's hull is made of high-strength low-magnetic steel, which allows the Yasen to dive to a depth of more than 600 m - this makes it practically inaccessible to all types of modern anti-submarine weapons (conventional nuclear submarines sink to 400 m). Nuclear submarines of the 885th project carry ammunition from 30 homing and remote-controlled torpedoes, sea mines, as well as long-range missiles "Caliber", supersonic anti-ship "Onyx" and, in the future, hypersonic "Zircon".
    The boat is equipped with six 650- and 533-mm torpedo tubes, through which the crew can fire all types of modern torpedoes, carry out minelaying and even use unmanned underwater vehicles. (Perhaps in the near future these will be new products "Physicist", "Predator" and the modernized Shkval torpedo rocket. True, so far these are only speculations - neither the Ministry of Defense, nor the design bureau that designed the "Ash" (St. Petersburg Autonomous District " SPMBM "Malachite"), did not declare anything similar about the 885th project).

    However, last year one very important detail was revealed by the military. According to the press service of the Northern Fleet, in July 2021, in the waters of the Barents and Norwegian Seas, fourth-generation nuclear submarines ("Borea" and "Ash") at a depth of 500 m conducted "special exercises to test systems and weapons." She also emphasized that "deep-sea tests are carried out at depths that are the limit for most modern submarines." For a general understanding: ships of all other generations (Russian or American, British, French and other fleets) can use their weapons when submerged no more than 50 m.

    LEGOLAND

    Thus, I come to the conclusion that the "Boreas" and "Ash" will determine the combat readiness of our fleet for several decades. In addition, from the experience of their design, construction and commissioning, the military and industry have already drawn certain conclusions. Not so long ago, the press service of Sevmash reported that the company was preparing to introduce a block-modular technology for the construction of nuclear submarines - this is a method of assembling ships from large sections, already saturated with the necessary equipment and weapons (previously, everything was mounted during the docking of individual submarine blocks). It is assumed that the use of block-modular technology will reduce labor intensity, as well as the construction time of boats.

    The other day it also became known that for the first time in Russia a digital model of a nuclear submarine was created. The project was implemented within the framework of a single design and production space created by Sevmash and four design bureaus: Northern Design Bureau, Rubin, Malachite and Almaz. In the process, technologies of reverse design, volumetric laser scanning were used, optoelectronic measurement instruments were introduced. New technologies have made it possible to avoid costly and labor-intensive rework.

    With all this, the design of ships of the next, fifth, generation has already begun. True, very little is known about them, but this is enough to suggest that in the future shipbuilders will "bake boats like pies." So, it has already been decided that the bow and stern rudders, stabilizers, wheelhouse fencing, even propellers and shaft lines will be made from composite materials.The use of composites in the construction of new ships makes it possible to achieve a significant increase in combat performance, increase reliability, and reduce operating costs, because these materials do not require painting and do not corrode. In addition, structures of this type can be manufactured during one technological process, which reduces the complexity of manufacturing parts by 30–40%.

    Within the framework of all these conceptual approaches, the design and preparation of production of new submarines is currently underway. The military say that these will be not only modular, but also highly unified ships (for example, in the bow and stern compartments). Which, in turn, will allow literally on the slipway, depending on the needs of the sailors, to turn a strategic missile cruiser into an attack submarine and vice versa - you just need to replace the modular weapon bay.

    https://tass.ru/opinions/13418707

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    Arrow


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    Post  Arrow Fri Jan 14, 2022 12:41 pm

    However, last year one very important detail was revealed by the military. According to the press service of the Northern Fleet, in July 2021, in the waters of the Barents and Norwegian Seas, fourth-generation nuclear submarines ("Borea" and "Ash") at a depth of 500 m conducted "special exercises to test systems and weapons." She also emphasized that "deep-sea tests are carried out at depths that are the limit for most modern submarines." For a general understanding: ships of all other generations (Russian or American, British, French and other fleets) can use their weapons when submerged no more than 50 m. wrote:


    Very interesting information. Does this mean that the West is not testing torpedoes at much greater depths?

    According to unconfirmed reports, one "Borey" costs the budget 23 billion rubles, and "Ash" - in excess of 200 billion (no wonder that the boats of the 885 project are among the most secret in the Russian flee wrote:

    I don't believe there is such a disproportion in cost between 955A and 885M. I think that these ships are quite similarly technically advanced. Yasen M is better automated probably better steel on the hull. However, there should be no such difference in cost.

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    Post  Big_Gazza Fri Jan 14, 2022 7:26 pm

    Arrow wrote:I don't believe there is such a disproportion in cost between 955A and 885M.  

    Agreed, its total nonsense.  23B (300M USD) for a Borei and 200B+ (2.6B USD) for a Yasen???  The usual suspects insist on lumping the total R&D costs and retooling by sub-suppliers into the cost of the lead boat. Its the 5th columnists standard practice to artificially inflate the cost and thereby sustain their attacks on the project, and its very disappointing to read fool journos repeating this seditious rubbish.
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    Post  Isos Fri Jan 14, 2022 8:09 pm

    According to this source used for the wiki article of Borei :

    https://www.naval-technology.com/projects/borei-class/

    "The first in the class of the submarines is the Yury Dolgoruky vessel, which was built at a total cost of $713m, including a research and development expenditure of $280m."


    And according to this source :

    https://www.kommersant.ru/doc/1812512

    "164 billion rubles - a contract with sk for the construction and supply of four nuclear submarines of project 885m "ash-m";

    47 billion rubles - contract with JSC "Sevmash" for the construction of the lead boat "Kazan" project 8

    39 billion rubles - additional agreement with the Central Design Bureau of MT "Rubin" for the design of a strategic nuclear submarine cruiser of project 955A "Borey";

    13.4 billion rubles - a contract with the SPMBM "Malakhit" for the development of a technical project for the modernization of a submarine of project 885M;

    11.5 billion rubles - a contract with the Admiralty shipyards for the construction of the rescue ship "Igor Belousov" (project 21300; originally planned to be built for 6 billion rubles);"

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    Post  Isos Fri Jan 14, 2022 8:13 pm

    Those are 10 years ago values. So it doesn't make sense to use 2021's exchange rate to have a figure in USD.

    47 billion rubles in 2011 was something like 1.6 billion dollars for the yasen.

    Today it would be 600 million dollars.

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    Post  PapaDragon Sat Jan 15, 2022 12:15 am

    Big_Gazza wrote:
    Arrow wrote:I don't believe there is such a disproportion in cost between 955A and 885M.  

    Agreed, its total nonsense.  23B (300M USD) for a Borei and 200B+ (2.6B USD) for a Yasen???  The usual suspects insist on lumping the total R&D costs and retooling by sub-suppliers into the cost of the lead boat. Its the 5th columnists standard practice to artificially inflate the cost and thereby sustain their attacks on the project, and its very disappointing to read fool journos repeating this seditious rubbish.

    No usual suspects or 5th columnists or whatever other cope fanboys go for, that's how Russian MoD calculates costs

    All development costs are assigned to lead vessel plus construction cost of it

    If you want to know price per regular ship you need to look at first SERIAL ship AKA the second one in class


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    Post  LMFS Mon Jan 17, 2022 5:40 am

    @Podlodka77

    Bratsk seems indeed slated for scrapping, while Samara should return to service in 2023, from the article above.

    Was there any discussion about producing SSNs again at Amur shipyard? That would definitely help with the schedule

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    Post  Podlodka77 Mon Jan 17, 2022 6:19 am

    LMFS wrote:@Podlodka77

    Bratsk seems indeed slated for scrapping, while Samara should return to service in 2023, from the article above.

    Was there any discussion about producing SSNs again at Amur shipyard? That would definitely help with the schedule


    Amur, why ? There is no need for that. Sevmash is not the problem but maybe money is.
    Its hard to believe but older russian submarines are longer in modernization than new submarines spend in construction.
    Russian Navy commissioned nuclear submarines in 2022: 3 885 and 885M, 2 945A, 2 671 RTM(K), 7 949A, 10 971 = 24. Only 2 of those of the project 971 (Gepard and Nerpa) could survive until 2040 and maybe those titanium 945A submarines. Everything else will be 45+ years old.
    If Russia continues like this than RN will have as much multipurpose submarines as France and UK combined and thats not enough. They need to start with the construction of more and more 885M submarines or 545A,  or whatever submarines that will replace those 971 submarines in the next decade. And there will be a few more submarines of the 09851 (2 or 3 subs in 2030) project and thats all.

    As I wrote, the problem is not Sevmash, the problem is whether there is money for all that and whether there will be money in the near future. why do i mention money ? I just can not believe that 10+ years are needed for the K-328 Leopard modernization. So whats the problem, incompetent repair plant or money or both of those things together ? How is it possible to build a submarine sooner at Sevmash than to finish modernization of the Leopard submarine? I have only one explanation; priority list of the russian MOD.
    1. Borei; 5 submarines have already been put into service, 4 more are under construction and one has been launched; 5 + 4 + 1 = 10. Also, two more are to be laid down next year and that already 12
    2. Yasen? Just 8 submarines because there is also 09851 project or Habarovsk class. And that Habarovsk class will "eat" some portion of those 885M subs. I would rather see 12 885M and 8 Borei than opposite. So in 2030 we will have just 8 885/885M submarines and 2 or 3 09851 submarines if something doesn't change in the meantime.
    MORE YASEN or 545A or whatever class of true multipurpose submarines and less novelty like 09851, thats all..

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    Post  Mir Mon Jan 17, 2022 8:39 am

    Amur, why ? There is no need for that.

    For starters a second line would obviously lead -at the very least - doubling up the production. That would be a great starting point for getting more subs in the fleet.
    The other news is that four of those upgraded Pr.971's will get back in service over the next two years. Most of them will be back this year.
    The process of modernizing will also benefit from the new 3D tech in future and likely to speed things up considerably.
    The Khabarovsk class submarines was developed from the Boreys and very few will be built as they are highly specialized subs.
    Khabarovsk is unlikely to eat into funding the Yasens as they are set at 8 units so money is already allocated - but there are plans to build a couple more.
    In fact most of the Khabarovsk's have already been laid down - which also means that the money has already been allocated for the program.
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    Post  lancelot Mon Jan 17, 2022 10:13 am

    Podlodka77 wrote:Amur, why ? There is no need for that. Sevmash is not the problem but maybe money is.
    ...
    As I wrote, the problem is not Sevmash, the problem is whether there is money for all that and whether there will be money in the near future. why do i mention money ? I just can not believe that 10+ years are needed for the K-328 Leopard modernization. So whats the problem, incompetent repair plant or money or both of those things together ? How is it possible to build a submarine sooner at Sevmash than to finish modernization of the Leopard submarine? I have only one explanation; priority list of the russian MOD.
    ...
    MORE YASEN or 545A or whatever class of true multipurpose submarines and less novelty like 09851, thats all..

    My guess is Russian ship repair and refurbishment facilities are not up to par. You have to remember back in Soviet times the practice was to send military vehicles back to the factory for overhauls. This applied to basically everything. You still see this happening today with tanks for example. Having separate facilities which are up to date is a problem. The Russian state also seems to have subcontracted this work to private shipyards and we know how good those typically are. i.e. not really.

    If you look at it all the SSBNs have been upgraded or refurbished at least once to fire the R-29RMU2 missile. The state's priority seems to be the renewal of the SSBN fleet and I think this is warranted. The Delta III and IV SSBNs use obsolete liquid fuel missiles and twin nuclear reactor power plant. They should also be much less quiet than the new submarines. The new submarines are a major improvement.

    The Yasen only entered service much later than the original Borey. The 885M is even more recent than that. The older Shchuka submarines already had a unitary reactor power plant. Only the Victor III still uses the twin nuclear reactor power plant. Not that many Victor III in service. I think the priority will be to replace the Victor III and since production of new units will take a while they will refurbish some of the Shchuka to fill the gap much like they did with the Delta IV in the SSBN fleet. The problem is not all of these submarines were built to the same standard and given the large gap between the time these submarines were built and today lots of problems are likely happening. Part suppliers no longer exist, knowledge of the layout of the submarine is probably lacking, and each production run and factory might have differences in build. These should complicate the refurbishment process a lot.

    I would focus on building new Yasen ships of 885M instead of upgrades even if this results in a smaller fleet for some time. There is a vast capability gap between the Yasen and earlier submarines in particular in terms of long range weapons and sensors.
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    Post  Podlodka77 Mon Jan 17, 2022 12:14 pm

    lancelot wrote:
    Podlodka77 wrote:Amur, why ? There is no need for that. Sevmash is not the problem but maybe money is.
    ...
    As I wrote, the problem is not Sevmash, the problem is whether there is money for all that and whether there will be money in the near future. why do i mention money ? I just can not believe that 10+ years are needed for the K-328 Leopard modernization. So whats the problem, incompetent repair plant or money or both of those things together ? How is it possible to build a submarine sooner at Sevmash than to finish modernization of the Leopard submarine? I have only one explanation; priority list of the russian MOD.
    ...
    MORE YASEN or 545A or whatever class of true multipurpose submarines and less novelty like 09851, thats all..

    My guess is Russian ship repair and refurbishment facilities are not up to par. You have to remember back in Soviet times the practice was to send military vehicles back to the factory for overhauls. This applied to basically everything. You still see this happening today with tanks for example. Having separate facilities which are up to date is a problem. The Russian state also seems to have subcontracted this work to private shipyards and we know how good those typically are. i.e. not really.

    If you look at it all the SSBNs have been upgraded or refurbished at least once to fire the R-29RMU2 missile. The state's priority seems to be the renewal of the SSBN fleet and I think this is warranted. The Delta III and IV SSBNs use obsolete liquid fuel missiles and twin nuclear reactor power plant. They should also be much less quiet than the new submarines. The new submarines are a major improvement.

    The Yasen only entered service much later than the original Borey. The 885M is even more recent than that. The older Shchuka submarines already had a unitary reactor power plant. Only the Victor III still uses the twin nuclear reactor power plant. Not that many Victor III in service. I think the priority will be to replace the Victor III and since production of new units will take a while they will refurbish some of the Shchuka to fill the gap much like they did with the Delta IV in the SSBN fleet. The problem is not all of these submarines were built to the same standard and given the large gap between the time these submarines were built and today lots of problems are likely happening. Part suppliers no longer exist, knowledge of the layout of the submarine is probably lacking, and each production run and factory might have differences in build. These should complicate the refurbishment process a lot.

    I would focus on building new Yasen ships of 885M instead of upgrades even if this results in a smaller fleet for some time. There is a vast capability gap between the Yasen and earlier submarines in particular in terms of long range weapons and sensors.

    I agree with you completely, because they only need to build new submarines and that's it. Its a lot better to not spend the money on 30+ years Irkutsk and Chelyabinsk and its better to built new subs. Those older submarines only needed to be repaired and thus their service life would be extended. I would go on with the modernization of only Gepard, Nerpa, Pskov and Nizhny Novgorod. The last twoo are titanium hulled submarines.
    It is possible that in previous years they went to modernize the 971 and 949A projects because the construction of the 885M project was slow then, but now Sevmash is building those submarines like mushrooms and it is time to think only about new submarines.
    24 multipurpose submarines are listed as commissioned in RN but no more than 13 ro 14 is in service at any given time. Yes, some of those 971 submarines will be back in service but its time to laid down a lote more keels for new multipurpose submarines.
    NOTHING is so important for RN as multipurpose submarines.


    Last edited by Podlodka77 on Mon Jan 17, 2022 12:33 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Post  Podlodka77 Mon Jan 17, 2022 12:27 pm

    Mir wrote:
    Amur, why ? There is no need for that.

    For starters a second line would obviously lead -at the very least - doubling up the production. That would be a great starting point for getting more subs in the fleet.
    The other news is that four of those upgraded Pr.971's will get back in service over the next two years. Most of them will be back this year.
    The process of modernizing will also benefit from the new 3D tech in future and likely to speed things up considerably.
    The Khabarovsk class submarines was developed from the Boreys and very few will be built as they are highly specialized subs.
    Khabarovsk is unlikely to eat into funding the Yasens as they are set at 8 units so money is already allocated - but there are plans to build a couple more.
    In fact most of the Khabarovsk's have already been laid down - which also means that the money has already been allocated for the program.


    New class of multi-purpose submarines will come, or those of proposed 545A submarines, but maybe with a little less displacement than the 885M project.
    I think the problem is that there are not enough submarines of the 885M project under construction right now, although it is increasingly clear that Sevmash already has at least 2 submarines of the 09851 Khabarovsk project under construction. Poseidon is a big deal for Russian Navy so we have at least Habarovsk and Ulyanovsk in construction.
    And for 971 project; i dont think so and most of those submarines will come back to service 1 or 2 years later than it was originaly stated.
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    Post  PapaDragon Mon Jan 17, 2022 12:37 pm


    Ulyanovsk is Yasen-class

    545A was supposed to be alternative to Yasen that would be built faster​ but there's no need for them anymore because Yasens ae being built at very fast rate now
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    Post  Podlodka77 Mon Jan 17, 2022 12:47 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Ulyanovsk is Yasen-class

    545A was supposed to be alternative to Yasen that would be built faster​ but there's no need for them anymore because Yasens ae being built at very fast rate now

    We will see at the end to which class the Ulyanovsk submarine belongs, I will classify it in 09851/09853 project. I am not saying that it is 100% true, but the Russian Ministry of Defense did not deny the writing of the TASS journalist. And its obvious that Poseidon is very important to RN.
    The text says that the keel was laid down in 2017, when the keel was indeed laid down for Ulyanovsk, and that the submarine will be handed over to the Russian Navy by 2027 as submarine of the 09853 project.
    * Khabarovsk; Pacific fleet,
    * Ulyanovsk; NF.

    I am not so sure that all russian multipurpose submarines in the future will be only those of the 885M project. Maybe they will built some new class of submarines with a full displacement that is slightly less than the 885M project.
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    Post  Podlodka77 Mon Jan 17, 2022 1:10 pm

    I think it is enough to build 10 to 12 submarines of the 885M project and than to build the other 12 with a slightly smaller displacement - which would correspond in dimensions to the 971 project. Instead of 8 launch silos (as in the 885M project) with 4 missiles per silo, it may be enough for these new submarines to have 6 and therefore construction would be faster. Even if they had 4 silos on each of the submarines, those submarines would still have greater strike power than the American Virginia's except of those which belong to Block 5 variant of Virginia's.
    The torpedo section will still hold no less than 24 to 30 torpedoes. And in the end, it is not impossible to build a bigger missile silo, that is, to have fewer silos on the submarine, but packed with more missiles.
    Even with 4 silos and 4 or 5 missile per silo and 24 torpedoes in torpedo section a full combat arsenal would be 40 to 44 missiles and torpedoes.
    Virginia class variants from Block 1 to Block 4 have only have 37 torpedoes and missiles in total.
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    Post  PapaDragon Mon Jan 17, 2022 2:05 pm

    Podlodka77 wrote:We will see at the end to which class the Ulyanovsk submarine belongs...

    We already saw it (literally)

    Navy clearly stated that it's Yasen and photographs of the hull confirm it



    Podlodka77 wrote:but the Russian Ministry of Defense did not deny the writing of the TASS journalist...

    That's because they don't give a single shit about what some random retard from TASS wrote



    Podlodka77 wrote:I think it is enough to build 10 to 12 submarines of the 885M project and than to build the other 12 with a slightly smaller displacement...

    12 Yasens is not enough which is why they will build more

    The need for anything other than Yasen disappeared the moment production pace of Yasens was brought up to speed

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    Post  Podlodka77 Mon Jan 17, 2022 2:40 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Podlodka77 wrote:We will see at the end to which class the Ulyanovsk submarine belongs...

    We already saw it (literally)

    Navy clearly stated that it's Yasen and photographs of the hull confirm it



    Podlodka77 wrote:but the Russian Ministry of Defense did not deny the writing of the TASS journalist...

    That's because they don't give a single shit about what some random retard from TASS wrote



    Podlodka77 wrote:I think it is enough to build 10 to 12 submarines of the 885M project and than to build the other 12 with a slightly smaller displacement...

    12 Yasens is not enough which is why they will build more

    The need for anything other than Yasen disappeared the moment production pace of Yasens was brought up to speed


    OK, there is no point in writing further about the Ulyanovsk submarine. It will be whatever it is but i disagree about 885M project because there is NOT ENOUGH of those submarines in construction - not at all.
    I didn't mean that 12 multipurpose nuclear submarines in total is sufficient number for the entire RN, but 10 to 12 submarines of the 885M project and another 12 to 14 submarines of lower displacement. No less than 24 multipurpose submarines in total. Even the oldest one or K-560 Severodvinsk could serve until at least 2050-2053 or 2060 for K-561 Kazan and K-573 Novosibirsk.

    I agress with HI Sutton and what he wrote, i quote him; " The type follows on from the Pr.885/885M Severodvinsk-class cruise missile submarines (SSGN). But it is not a straightforward successor. Instead, it is the cheaper little brother, intended as a replacement for existing attack submarines. As the Severodvinsk-class (also known as Yasen-class) replaces the Oscar-II (949A Antey) SSGNs, Laika (545A) will replace the Akula (project 971) and Sierra (project 945 Barakuda and 945A Kondor) classes. But we should expect fewer silos, possibly just four. This would give a VLS load of up to 16 missiles.
    Arguably the VLS will make the Laika an SSGN design. The same could be said of the US Navy’s Virginia-class. But following the logic that Laika will replace SSNs more or less 1:1, while the Severodvinsk-class is replacing the Oscar-IIs, the “SSN” label is likely to stick. And with it the doctrine of SSN usage in the Russian Navy".

    Something like this, yes, but with torpedo room/section below the conning tower and conformal array sonar in the front. There is no need to built 24 submarines of the 885M project.
    Except for K-335 Gepard and K-152 Nerpa submarines all other submarines of the 971 project are over 26 years in active service. Even K-157 Vepr and K-295 Samara submarines will have 35 years of active service in 2030, so the number of 885M submarines under construction is very small. I don't see any purpose for the submarines of this 971 project to be in use for over 40 years (upper limit), nor do I think that would be a smart decision.
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    Post  Hole Mon Jan 17, 2022 2:54 pm

    There will be 2 more Borej class subs laid down and that´s it (for a few years at least). That side of the construction building will be free, the other will be used for more Yassen´s. There is space to build 2 - 3 Laikas for every Borej. Do the math yourself. Very Happy This class can be build up very fast. Well, after the long testing phase for the first one, of course.
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    Post  Podlodka77 Mon Jan 17, 2022 3:32 pm

    Hole wrote:There will be 2 more Borej class subs laid down and that´s it (for a few years at least). That side of the construction building will be free, the other will be used for more Yassen´s. There is space to build 2 - 3 Laikas for every Borej. Do the math yourself. Very Happy  This class can be build up very fast. Well, after the long testing phase for the first one, of course.

    * 545A; You see, i am not the only one who thinks that new class of multipurpose submarines will appear in the near future. I am of the opinion that this new submarine project will be in construction before 2025. It will be great if the first submarine of that project is handed over to the fleet before 2030. In any case, the construction would be even faster than for the 885M project. But i agree, testing phase will last for some time but not as long as for 885 Severodvinsk submarine. We could see that the 885M project submarines were significantly shorter in tests and sea trials than K-560 Severodvinsk of the original 885 project. After all, most of the equipment from the 885M submarine will only be transferred to a new project but modernized.

    * 885M; Additional submarines will be constructed i hope so. Кeels for the last 2 subs were laid down in 2020 (not included in the list below). I have some thought that maybe they could start building two new submarines this year, although there is no announcement of a new contract for additional submarines of this project. We only know that Borisov said that the construction of these submarines "will continue" and thats all. There will be a free space here also because Arkhangelsk will be launched this year (probably) and Perm in the next year.

    * 955A; And I think that a lot of space in Sevmash will be freed up after the eighth Pozharskiy submarine is launched (seventh submarine Imperator Alexandr the 3th will be launched this year probably), only if they decide not to built TWOO more 955A submarines, or 13th and 14th, because some of the first 955 submarines could become special mission submarines like BS-136 Orenburg and BS-64 Podmoskovye. After Pozharskiy only four 955A submarines will be in construction; Knyaz Potemkin and Dmitri Donskoy and two new ones.

    Below every year you can see the total number of submarines in construction and in slipyard; for example 14/12 = 14 in construction and 12 of that number under construction indoors - which means that 2 submarines are already launched.
    This list is from 2018 and its just a prediction, nothing else, but its not far from the truth. He predicted 11/8 for 2022 in 2018 when this list was created, but some of submarines from the list were not delivered to the Navy.

    In 2022; (13/10); 13 submarines in construction in total and 10 of those are construction indoors ;
    * 955A; Suvorov, Alexandr III, Pozharskiy, Potemkin, Donskoy
    * 855A; Krasnoyarsk, Arkhangelsk, Perm, Ulyanovsk (if it belongs to 885M), Voronezh and Vladivostok,
    * 09851; Habarovsk,
    * 09852; Belgorod.
    * LAUNCHED; Suvorov, Krasnoyarsk, Belgorod.

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    Last edited by Podlodka77 on Mon Jan 17, 2022 3:52 pm; edited 2 times in total
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    Post  PapaDragon Mon Jan 17, 2022 3:47 pm


    That article from HI Sutton is ancient and so is that table you posted (2018)

    Production of Yasens is now up to speed hence Husky has been shelved since there's no more need for them

    Why would Russian Navy give up superior platform which is being built fast for inferior one which will inevitably suffer development and construction delays?

    They already said that Yasen construction will be extended



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    Post  Mir Mon Jan 17, 2022 4:00 pm

    Hole wrote:There will be 2 more Borej class subs laid down and that´s it (for a few years at least). That side of the construction building will be free, the other will be used for more Yassen´s. There is space to build 2 - 3 Laikas for every Borej. Do the math yourself. Very Happy  This class can be build up very fast. Well, after the long testing phase for the first one, of course.

    There are actually two boat houses for construction so they can probably produce even more?

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    @Podlodka7
    Papa_Dragon is right about the Ulyanovsk. It has been laid down in 2017 already so the name is out there on a brass plate and is sited as such by many sources.
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