Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

To start with.... WTF is a P-9 Orion?

Original article just says Orion.
The anecdote about detecting 10 subs in one flight is pretty alarming reading, implies SOSUS/other sensors providing high accuracy tracking of Russian subs in their own waters.

Submarine officers from Severomorsk put the flight path of the American reconnaissance aircraft Orion on the map of the location of our submarines during the exercises. And all ten turning points of his route were right on the locations of our boats. That is, he did not even look for them, but was heading for a specific point. "Orion" left without any tacks exactly on our submarine, dumped the buoy and went to the next one.

But I wonder when was the last time the Russian North fleet had 10 subs at sea simultaneously?
If its fairly often then Russian sub fleet is considerably more active than I had the impression it is.

But whether that is legit or not I do agree on the question of the sense in spending huge amounts of $$$ on ballistic subs when USSR/Russia doesn't seem to have been able to actually keep US subs out of the Bastions (is Bastions still the tactic?), if US really has subs constantly trailing the SSBNs that expensive second strike capability becomes pretty void & a waste of $$$.

I'm surprised Russia hasn't put a lot more effort into modernising ASW capability/SSNs than it seems to be eg building a bunch of 20380/other new ASW ship for North/smaller, cheaper modern SSN in decent numbers rather than large expensive Yasens or a new gen ASW plane.
Obviously there is only so much budget kicking around but still...

hoom wrote:.......
I'm surprised Russia hasn't put a lot more effort into modernising ASW capability/SSNs than it seems to be eg building a bunch of 20380/other new ASW ship for North/smaller, cheaper modern SSN in decent numbers rather than large expensive Yasens or a new gen ASW plane.
Obviously there is only so much budget kicking around but still...

If Yasens are that detectable by hostiles then it makes all naval vessels complete waste of money. Goes double for surface ships.

Compared to submarines 20380 is nothing. It's less than nothing, a toilet paper. Same goes for every other ship from Karakurt all the way up to Kirov.

If USA has that kind of advantage then ordering people to climb aboard deathtraps like surface ships is act of crime, mass murder and high treason.

There is no way to catch up on technological advantage described in that article. If true then whole thing is hopelessly​ out of reach.

If there is any truth to any single claim made in this article then entire Russian Navy should be immediately disbanded starting with surface fleet and all funds should be redirected towards army, airforce and missile troops before it's to late.

hoom wrote:is Bastions still the tactic?

GUGI is laying seafloor sensors Garmoniya in the Barents sea, so it will be increasingly difficult for the US subs to sail there undetected.

2015 Naval strategy is talking about blue waters again...literally for the first time in Russia since Stalin. So smaller ships will defend the bastions and larger ships will cruise the oceans. Still it's unclear how they plan to use their 1 CV to defend their SLOC against 11 US CVNs. To realise the second part of the maritime strategy, alliance with China may be needed.

Only one guy active on the comment section defending the article vehemently and I believe it is the writer of the article. Everyone asks for names and proof and he provided none.

And yes, the claim that 10 subs detected by 1 Orion is stupid and anyone who believes that should be shot.

No 10 submarines were in the same area all at once at same time. It is a made up story using no names, but something vague. Borei is very silent, much more silent than Chinese subs and up there to being one of the most silent Nuke subs out there. But he seems to think this Orion is the end all be all. No, it isn't, nor did it detect 10 submarines in the same area all at once. Because that never happened. If it did, the US would have bragged about it.

And that is key right there. US loves to make up stories. They also love to brag about their capabilities. Remember how they would brag about how their F-22's would operate near Russian jets and not get spotted? Or how America killed 100....no wait, 300.... Oh now it is 600 Russians?

You see, if something like this happened, then it would have been used as cheap propaganda. But no, no word of that. And we would have heard from more than 1 source of some random person too. But no, we hear it on a blog then on vpk.name which loves to also host Ukrainian propaganda and American as well.

But no word of such things happening in US, as I said, who loves to brag about things that either never happened or happened to a much lesser extent than they exaggerated.

Looks like a good article.

https://edition.cnn.com/2018/10/25/europe/nato-russian-submarines-iceland-intl/index.html wrote:

Russia not yet NATO's equal

To keep track of the Russian subs, NATO planes are making a flight about every other day out of a revived US base at Keflavik International Airport.

Foggo says those subs are a big headache for NATO's leaders.

But even with the twin-engine jets running regular surveillance in the North Atlantic, finding Russian submarines is not an easy task.

It's a chess match between the sub commander and all the assets that are trying to find him

"We can no longer take for granted that we can sail with impunity in all of the oceans."

It would be stupid to say either P-8 or the subs is garbage.

Hole wrote:This would be unbelievable even if all the systems of the P-8 would work. According to a report from last year only the optics work as they should and I doubt that the corrupt system in Amiland is capable to fix all problems in just a year.

Exactly.

As said by Papa, this smells as a method to obtain more funding to buy more stuff.

It was always known that you do not have all your submarines float all near each other. Which makes the P-3 Orion comment a joke in itself. Borei's are not floating all together holding hands in harmony march. It travels on its own.

Then there were the articles how Russian submarines ended up near Mexico waters without being detected.

Then there is fact that both Il-38N and P-3 modernized would work in detecting submarines. That is their job. Hence why they have to fly in pre-determined routes. So in other words, they take guesses as to where the subs may be. But when an exercise happens, both sides announce it because that is international standards....

A lot of flaws and just guess work in such article makes it a joke. Borei II is being built and built in numbers. 14 total borei's will exist while Delta IV's will still be active for lot longer. Because in the end, even if they stay hidden or even found, they can launch their payloads within seconds and would end up reaching their intended target - if sunken or not.

But he seems to think this Orion is the end all be all. No, it isn't, nor did it detect 10 submarines in the same area all at once.

The claim is not that the Orion did the detection but that the Orion went straight to where the subs were in sequence -> some other sensor/s provided the coordinates.

GUGI is laying seafloor sensors Garmoniya in the Barents sea, so it will be increasingly difficult for the US subs to sail there undetected.

Also a new generation of special purpose subs & 'hydrographic research ships' coming online, it may help yes but it could be a war of attrition who can find & disable/bug whose sensors quickest.

A lot of talk in the US about the threat of the quiet Russian subs and the need to use active sonar to even have a chance of knowing where they are, but now Orions are able to pick them up at will...

Then why are they bothering with Poseidons then?

Sounds like rubbish to me...

Of course the purpose of the SSBN fleet is not to be invincible... it is to require the enormous expense that it takes to try to keep an eye on it... most Russian subs will volley launch their missiles in a matter of minutes, so they really don't need that much time to do their job...

Hole wrote:I know it is to expensive to refit them, but they would be great carriers for Poseidons/UUV´s.

[img]https://i.servimg.com/u/f10/19/89/13/22/022310.jpg

Poseidon?

You could shoot Akula SSNs out of these monsters

Guys, is there any info at all about new nuclear submarines being laid down or ordered?

Anything at all?

SSN, SSGN, SSBN... doesn't matter which.

Are there news, indications, mulls, contemplations, rumors, assumptions, anything?

PapaDragon wrote:


Guys, is there any info at all about new nuclear submarines being laid down or ordered?

Anything at all?

SSN, SSGN, SSBN... doesn't matter which.

Are there news, indications, mulls, contemplations, rumors, assumptions, anything?

the only nuclear submarines that can be laid down/ordered are Yasens since all ordered Borei IIs (5) have been laid down. The rest 6 Borei IIs planned will be constructed after 2023

and for Yasens we dont know if there is intention for further orders due to their high cost

Isos wrote:

PapaDragon wrote:.....

Just ask Ehniee
.......

Play stupid games, win stupid prizes I guess....

George1 wrote:....
the only nuclear submarines that can be laid down/ordered are Yasens since all ordered Borei IIs (5) have been laid down. The rest 6 Borei IIs planned will be constructed after 2023

and for Yasens we dont know if there is intention for further orders due to their high cost

So Borei production line is full? Can't complain about that...

As for Yasens, they can order one or two more can they? Is it too much to ask?

Just ask Ehniee lol1

There's 5 Yasens & 4 Borei-A in construction already, seems sensible to concentrate on getting more of them finished to me?

There is the order for more Borei-A but otherwise next should be Husky which is a few years away from laying down.
An 8th Yasen would even out the numbers but I think its odd due to Kursk leaving an odd number of Oscars.

Comparison of Virginia and Yasen SSNs




Comparison of Los Angeles and Akula class SSNs

Ooh someone at Balancer is probably gonna get pissed that their Yasen line drawing got referenced as coming from here rather than there

Am surprised to see Yasen shorter than Virginia, I had the impression its quite a lot bigger than Virginias.

Edit: for the record that Yasen line drawing is almost certainly from igorkot thread http://forums.airbase.ru/2016/07/t93169--chertezhi-podvodnykh-lodok-proekta-885.html

SSBNs in service and at construction



https://navy-korabel.livejournal.com/200567.html

SSN/SSGN in service/repair/removed as of now

It seems that only 1 Akula-class is in service

George1 wrote:SSN/SSGN in service/repair/removed as of now

It seems that only 1 Akula-class is in service

https://ic.pics.livejournal.com/navy_korabel/63221775/71814/71814_original.jpg

Yeah, it's been that way for a while now