Russian Space Program: News & Discussion #2

Some news from Roscosmos:

Roskosmos plans to reduce excess areas of enterprises of the industry

https://ria.ru/space/20180622/1523188909.html

Roskosmos plans to open a center of the rocket and space industry in Moscow

https://ria.ru/space/20180622/1523188327.html

Rogozin appointed Kharchenko acting deputy Roskosmos

https://ria.ru/science/20180622/1523257236.html

Oleg Frolov has headed the defense programs of Roskosmos

https://ria.ru/space/20180622/1523229253.html

In the KB hiamavtomatiki told about the hydrogen rocket engines of the future

MOSCOW, June 22 - RIA Novosti. Hydrogen rocket engines of the Russian production in the future can be facilitated by the use of a laser ignition system, chief designer of the Design Bureau of Chemical Automatics (KBHA) Victor Gorokhov said on Friday.

"The introduction of a laser ignition system in a liquid rocket engine helps to reduce its mass, which is always important for rocket technology, and also simplifies the cycle of launching a liquid rocket engine," the words of Gorokhov on the website of the Energomash NGO (the head organization of the Integrated Structure of Missile Engine Building, KBA).
According to him, this way it will be possible to improve the reliability of the engine.

Tests of the new ignition system were carried out at the KBCA on 20 June.

Now in Russia a superheavy rocket is being developed, the upper stage of which is to receive the RD-150 hydrogen engine. As stated earlier by the general designer for manned space systems and complexes of Russia Evgeny Mikrin, it will be created using the developments on the RD-120 engine, which operated on the second stage of the Soviet superheavy "Energia" rocket.

РИА Новости https://ria.ru/space/20180622/1523207974.html

Russia to launch resupply ship to orbital outpost using ultra-short scheme for first time

The flight’s ultra-short scheme implies that the spacecraft will make two revolutions around the Earth

MOSCOW, July 2. /TASS/. The Russian Progress MS-09 resupply ship is planned to be launched to the International Space Station (ISS) using the ultra-short two-revolution scheme for the first time to reach the orbital outpost in less than four hours, the Central Research Institute of Machine-Building (TsNIImash) said on Monday.

TsNIImash is the head institute of Russia’s State Space Corporation Roscosmos.

A TASS source earlier said that the next attempt to test the flight’s two-rotation scheme might be taken on July 10 during the launch of the Progress MS-09.

"According to the preliminary calculations of the Ballistic and Navigation Provision Service of the Flight Control Center [part of TsNIImash], the launch of the Progress MS-09 resupply ship is scheduled for 00:52 a.m. Moscow time on July 10. The spacecraft is set to dock with the ISS at 04:39 a.m. Moscow time on July 10, TsNIImash said

The flight’s ultra-short scheme implies that the spacecraft will make two revolutions around the Earth. Previously, Progress space vehicles used either the two-day scheme (34 revolutions around the planet) to get to the orbital outpost or flew to the space station within six hours (four revolutions).

Russia earlier planned to launch a Progress MS-07 resupply ship on October 12, 2017, using a short two-revolution scheme for the first time. However, the automatic system of the Baikonur launch pad cancelled the launch and the spacecraft flew to the ISS on October 14 using the traditional two-day scheme.

The same situation emerged during the launch of the Progress MS-08 spacecraft: initially, the space vehicle was planned to be launched into outer space on February 11, 2018 but several seconds before the launch, the automatic system cancelled the liftoff. As a result, the spacecraft blasted off on February 13 and docked to the ISS on February 15.


More:
http://tass.com/science/1011694

Anyone know if this is legit?  Haven't heard about it anywhere else, not even on dweeb Zaks site...

Roscosmos will adjust the Federal Space Program until 2025   https://ria.ru/science/20180703/1523866069.html

The federal comic program of Russia for the period 2016-2025 will be revised for mutual coordination of promising projects, RIA Novosti reported to Roskosmos state corporation.

At the end of June, the new director general of Roskosmos, Dmitry Rogozin, presented his vision for the development of the Russian space-rocket industry. In particular, some programs were revised: it was decided to return the manned program from Baikonur to the Vostochny space center, and the Federation ship was to be re-launched from the Soyuz-5 rocket to the Angara , from the current concept of the Soyuz-5 carrier "it is decided to refuse, and instead of it to think over a rocket on methane fuel.

In turn, a source in the rocket and space industry explained to RIA Novosti that the Roskosmos leadership is now considering two concepts of changing the Federal Space Program - cosmetic changes and a complete revision of the entire program. To this end, the state corporation conducts daily meetings and forms a new vision for the development of the space program. "Depending on the results obtained, this or that decision will be taken," the source said.

Earlier it was reported that during a recent meeting with Prime Minister Dmitry Medvedev, Rogozin received support from the government in the steps to restore the financial system of the state corporation.

It was also reported that the current Federal Space Program of Russia could be reduced due to underfunding by about 150 billion rubles in the next three years, which will require a revision of its timing and target parameters.

The Federal Space Program of Russia for 2016-2025 was approved by the government in March 2016. The volume of its budget financing is set at 1.4 trillion rubles. Initially, when developing the program in 2014, prior to the sequestration of budget expenditures, it was proposed to request 2.8 trillion rubles for its implementation.

Dafuq????  Federation is back to Angara-5P from Vostochny, and Soyuz-5 might be a methalox vehicle?  

Or is this just a Google translate feck-up?...

Hmmm...   gonna have a wee drinkie and contemplate the pointlessness of ever thinking that the Russian space program is run by anything other than head-less chickens running about the kitchen...   Not that this would be a bad outcome, but really?.....

Big_Gazza wrote:Anyone know if this is legit?  Haven't heard about it anywhere else, not even on dweeb Zaks site...

Roscosmos will adjust the Federal Space Program until 2025   https://ria.ru/science/20180703/1523866069.html

........

Dafuq????  Federation is back to Angara-5P from Vostochny, and Soyuz-5 might be a methalox vehicle?  

Or is this just a Google translate feck-up?...

Hmmm...   gonna have a wee drinkie and contemplate the pointlessness of ever thinking that the Russian space program is run by anything other than head-less chickens running about the kitchen...   Not that this would be a bad outcome, but really?.....

OK this is literally dumbest thing imaginable.

Back to Angara? If they wanted Angara why the fuck didn't the fast-tracked that whole thing years ago? They spent all this time trying to get rid of it but now they want it back?

Is it possible that Trampoline Man became too associated with the project in public eyes so now he tries to salvage that shitfest in order to make himself look good?

And if Angara is back then why are they bothering with Soyuz-5? To use it strictly for cargo? Even NASA SLS will be man-rated and they are swimming in cash.

And what about Baikonur? They signed a contract with Kazakhs. If they back out now they will owe them money instead of other way around.

And how the hell do they plan on getting out of Low Earth Orbit with Angara? They said that they need 6 launches for that, it's idiotic.

Stupidity of highest order.

Does anyone visit Russian forums? Any chatter there about this because it looks like total fiasco?

Honestly if this is true then they might as well give up on the whole space program. Given the silence about this latest bullshit it looks like even locals have figured out that this whole space traveling chapter in their history is finished.

Russia is plagued with 5th columnists and this is happening under Putin's nose,  is he getting senile or what?

Nibiru wrote:Russia is plagued with 5th columnists and this is happening under Putin's nose,  is he getting senile or what?

No.

Russia is flooded with lazy overpaid morons.

Russian space program is now going to shit because Trampoline Man is actively running it into the ground.

Trampoline Man has massive inferiority issues because he is obsessed with Musk and Space-X, he feels inferior to him and he is using his new position to air out his frustrations and insecurities. In the process he will terminate Russian space sector for good.

Instead of doing his job he is measuring his own dick.





EDIT: Looks like management of Energia is not finding this latest Angara bullshit entertaining either:

The head of RSC Energia Vladimir Solntsev resigned

http://www.interfax.ru/russia/619624

I expect exodus of qualified staff from Russian space sector in months and years to follow. I mean, how long can person work in a circus before he realizes that he doesn't want to be clown all his life? And in a shitty circus at that.

Especially since Space-X, Blue Origin, Virgin Galactic and god knows who else is expanding and hiring like crazy lately. And don't get me started on Chinese....

"The new team leaders, who formed the "Roskosmos", very closely followed by all companies in the industry. Special attention is paid to the assessment of the situation at the head of important companies in the industry - in the Center Khrunichev and RSC Energia. According to the results of the preliminary assessment, the conclusions about the need for personnel changes at these enterprises", - said the "Interfax" a senior source in the space industry.

Some of you people need to calm down and stop pretending you know what's going on.

I moved this off Navy tread:

miketheterrible wrote:Papa, you seem to have some serious issues. Nothing going on with roscosmos is fatal.........

Nothing fatal if they want to keep using Soyuz capsule and stay in Low Earht Orbit forever.

They just canceled their superheavy rocket and went back to so-long-to-develop-it-became-obsolete medium Angara.

They had to force designers to cut 4 tons of weight off Federation just to squeeze it on Angara 5.

Soyuz-5 would have solved that but with going back to cutting mass this thing risks becoming suicide box.

Is it official that they cut Soyuz-5? I haven't really read anywhere that they did. I agree Soyuz-5 would have been ideal, but the facts are:
- cut budget so things get shelved
- they already funded Angara and moved production to Omsk, where they are ready waiting for orders (well, and some retooling). Proton is gone so it's simply Angara and Soyuz-2 for now.
- movement and purging of people. The whole space industry was a bloated mess and honestly, hornets nest needed to be shaken. Anyway, a lot of these decisions are handled by large panels, not just Rogozin. I know you, TR1 and others hated the guy but he was chosen and he follows orders from higher up. They probably decided that they can't afford certain things now.

Yes, Russia will be low orbit for a while. They will still send people to space and develop space tech. They won't be like Space X and in reality, space x like Tesla is crashing anyway due to funds.

There are far more important things than deep space that Russia has to fix first. In future they will expand to deep space once other issues are resolved first.

miketheterrible wrote:Is it official that they cut Soyuz-5? I haven't really read anywhere that they did....

They are moving Federation back to Angara (how they plan on doing it given the fact that it doesn't have payload capacity to carry it is another issue)

Whole point of Soyuz-5 was to be man-rated from the get go and to be used as basis for superheavy rocket. Angara is not man-rated and there is no way in fucking hell it can be used to build superheavy rocket.

At best they may reach 35 tons with Angara-7 but that thing didn't' even get a fanart let alone design concept.

miketheterrible wrote:...Yes, Russia will be low orbit for a while....

Which they could have done with Soyuz and Proton without wasting any money needlessly.

miketheterrible wrote:...They will still send people to space...

After 60 years of doing it it's hardly surprising. Until everyone else does it.

miketheterrible wrote:...and develop space tech.

I highly doubt it.

miketheterrible wrote:They won't be like Space X ...

Of course not, Space-X develops new stuff and actually put money that they get from government as subsidies to use.

Space x doesn't produce new stuff. And it's a loss, not gain in economy. Their entire R&D was hand me down from NASA.

Anyway, they haven't sent people to space.

And why do you doubt they will produce new space tech?

They still build and launch satellites, majority of the modules on ISS is Russian built, etc.

Launching a car into space is nothing. But if you think otherwise....

Russian companies, even not related to roscosmos are building satellites. Other countries get Russia to build their satellites and launch them. They also build telescopic systems for other nations including their own. They already have set plans for their satellites constellation development. Which is most important right now, not mars Rover.

miketheterrible wrote:Space x doesn't produce new stuff. And it's a loss, not gain in economy. Their entire R&D was hand me down from NASA.

They started from nothing and got to launching satellites into space in several years. I'd say that Roscosmos should do some hand-me-down but they refuse to sell old N-1 engines to S7 even though they are not using them and never will.

I am annoyed by Space-X and their overadvertized bullshittery too but they get more things done than Roscosmos. Lot more.

miketheterrible wrote:Anyway, they haven't sent people to space.

Yet...

miketheterrible wrote:And why do you doubt they will produce new space tech?

What was last new thing they made? Proton-M? That's not new, wasn't new even when it was ''new''.

miketheterrible wrote:They still build and launch satellites, majority of the modules on ISS is Russian built, etc.

ISS was 20 years ago. And they only made 50% of what they were supposed to make. They wouldn't have done even that without Uncle Sam dragging them along.

Everyone and their grandma is building and launching satellites these days. And unlike Russia they don't need to import electronics to make them.

miketheterrible wrote:Launching a car into space is nothing. But if you think otherwise, then it shows what kind of character you are - all about bling and show but little of substance.

I don't give a shit about some glorified bumper car they stuffed up there. It's what comes on the next launch that matters. And every one after that.

Fact that a flashy red car is only thing you noticed in that equation shows what kind of character you are.

Fact is, they stole already existing tech in order to launch stuff. End of story. Space X is a fraud. Elon musk is a fraud.

Second, they (Russia) still builds modules for ISS. After ISS it will be joint China Russia. Russia has made multitudes of new satellites, com and telescopic systems, expanded Glonass, etc. And no, a lot of components are their own, which is why they went with Glonass M as example. Companies such as Elvees and Mikran produce majority of the needed components. Russia is one of the very few who actually makes the components. So no, majority of other nations import it. So you have it rather backwards.  Very specifc stuff they import like mram needed for space, but rusnano is working with foreigners for local production, even if small production.  Other specifics can be imported but they rather not and produce in house which is what Rostec has been actively working on.  Especially now the $1.5B agreement between Rostec and Systema (Mikran).

They also launched Angara, so Proton M isn't their latest. Soyuz-2 is also not really old either and works wonderful.  Heck, I am using Russian tech in my Sony Xperia XA2 Ultra - Glonass chip.

Edit: and as I talk, here is another piece of space tech made by Russia patented: http://rostec.ru/news/shvabe-zapatentovalo-ustroystvo-dlya-skanirovaniya-zemli-iz-kosmosa/

Edit 2: I completely agree with you on the sense of technology Roscosmos that isn't using, should sell it off to S-7.

RSC Energia head Solntsev steps down — Roscosmos

More:
http://tass.com/science/1011874

PapaDragon wrote:I'd say that Roscosmos should do some hand-me-down but they refuse to sell old N-1 engines to S7 even though they are not using them and never will.

AFAIK the remaining NK-33 stocks are ear-marked for use on the Soyuz 2.1v. Once they are used up, they will switch to an RD-193 (shortened version of RD-191). Stocks are limited, so it makes sense to hold onto them and use them up rather than selling and having to buy replacements. If S-7 want engines so badly, let them buy the RD-193 direct...

miketheterrible wrote:Fact is, they stole already existing tech in order to launch stuff. End of story. Space X is a fraud. Elon musk is a fraud.........

Of course he is a fraud. One of biggest frauds currently living.

But he is a fraud who surpassed entire Russian space program in a decade, built a personality cult and got taxpayers to fund it.

He is a fraud who gets results.

Only thing Trampoline Man managed to do OTOH was to rip off taxpayers.

Even though he tried his best he failed to establish personality cult. As for space program he is well on his way to killing it completely.

Big_Gazza wrote:

PapaDragon wrote:I'd say that Roscosmos should do some hand-me-down but they refuse to sell old N-1 engines to S7 even though they are not using them and never will.

AFAIK the remaining NK-33 stocks are ear-marked for use on the Soyuz 2.1v. Once they are used up, they will switch to an RD-193 (shortened version of RD-191). Stocks are limited, so it makes sense to hold onto them and use them up rather than selling and having to buy replacements. If S-7 want engines so badly, let them buy the RD-193 direct...

S7 wants to buy production rights and unused machinery. They also want to keep delivering NK-33 engines to VKS.

If S7 floods the market with newly produced engines someone will lose their cut of the pie hence the holdup.

What.

It has been pointed out that the existing stock of NK-33 is allocated. S7 has to look elsewhere. No conspiracy required to explain
the situation.

S7 should push Energomash to move up production of the RD-193. That would be something that is realistic and good for Russia.

kvs wrote:What.

It has been pointed out that the existing stock of NK-33 is allocated. S7 has to look elsewhere. No conspiracy required to explain
the situation.

S7 should push Energomash to move up production of the RD-193. That would be something that is realistic and good for Russia.

They are not after existing engine stock, they want to produce new ones, that's why they want documentation and machinery.

And they don't want RD-193 because they want to manufacture engines themselves, not to buy them.

I would say selling them rights or at least give license to them to build the engines is a good idea.  They may actually do that too in near future if they assess the whole thing cause if they (roscosmos) stops ordering the engines for something else, then they have a good chance to make good amounts of money.

hoarding technology is what got these organizations into trouble in first place.

As well, Elon Musk hasn't shown Roscosmos anything. All they shown is they can also launch satellites and fly a plane into space. Sorry, I don't care, not impressed. NASA has far more impressive achievements and it too faces same issues as Roscosmos.

S7 is not a rocket engine manufacturer. Energomash is. It makes no sense to license S7 anything.

kvs wrote:S7 is not a rocket engine manufacturer.    Energomash is.   It makes no sense to license S7 anything.

Energomash has not been making that engine since the 60's (did they even exist as company back then?)

Amazon used to sell books when they started, should they have stayed that way forever?

Besides, it's not their intellectual property anyway.

Use it or lose it (at least that is why government should tell Energomash if they insist on halting the development of the country but intelligence seem to be in short supply there)

S7 wants it and they plan on doing something with it. Good enough reason. Fuck Energomash if the have complaints.

NK-33 was developed by Kuznetsov (mainly because Glushko refused to design the kerolox engines that Korolev demanded for his N-1). Kuznetsov has declined to restart production, and there is little to no chance that Energomash (Glushkos old bureau OKB-456) would be interested in getting involved.

If S-7 was to be granted (gifted?) the IP for a restart of NK-33 production, who would they use to build the engines?

Money is money. If they guarantee a good contract of a large amount of engines to be purchased, I imagine they would be happy to do it.

One thing I learned and I posted it earlier, was the thing regarding marine engines. Apparently due to the growing demand by Russian military for a specific sized ships, requires an engine that is made by only one company initially. Now many small companies are trying to also gain the rights to manufacture that same exact engine and some of them already do, because the fact that small sized ships that require it are in high demand.

If the demand was there, then I imagine any small company that can produce the engines would be wanting to obtain the license.

Big_Gazza wrote:.....

If S-7 was to be granted (gifted?) the IP for a restart of NK-33 production, who would they use to build the engines?

They want to pay for the whole thing, no gifts necessary.

As for building them, plan is to set up their own manufacturing facilities, fully company owned and operated.

Honestly Russian government should jump at this chance. Space sector in Russia is rapidly becoming a joke and they risk losing qualified workforce if this keeps going.

Having good looking alternative with appeal for young blood would be very wise approach.

Personally I am amazed that there is anyone left in Russia who is willing to stake his own reputation on anything space related to say nothing of staking his own money. This is golden opportunity.

Private space sector in USA is popular among young experts because they have results to show for. Last result Russian space Industry had was erased from existence by Gorbachev himself (actually Soviet space industry result, so far Russia has no results to speak of and at this rate it's unlikely it ever​ will).