Military Forum for Russian and Global Defence Issues


    Russian Economy General News: #2

    sepheronx
    sepheronx

    Posts : 7090
    Points : 7358
    Join date : 2009-08-06
    Age : 30
    Location : Canada

    Russian Economy General News: #2 - Page 22 Empty Re: Russian Economy General News: #2

    Post  sepheronx on Sat Sep 20, 2014 6:52 pm

    NationalRus wrote:every non stratigic sector is better run in free hands, strategic sectors are also mostly run better in free hands but i would prefer ther state control for security and geopolitcal reasons, that would enclude the "heavy" military industry, natural resources, and "partly" telecommunication and electricity, but thats it! not more, maybe less

    I would add in some concept of heavy industrial production too.  But at least have a stake in it.  Total privatization in them is maybe not the best.  But if the government only has enough share to watch over the companies activities, then that is good enough for me.

    Problem with the private sector, at least in the 90's, is that many industries decided to sell out to western enterprises, which then were stripped of their assets and then closed up production, damaging Russia's industrial production.

    here in Canada, we are facing an issue where the private sector is pretty much ripping us off.  After Enmax was partially sold off (privatized) we were promised prices for our energy would go down.  Instead they jumped up significantly.  Same thing with our cities construction.  But turn the table, to groups like the CRTC, which is controlled by Bell, Telus, Rogers and Shaw, we are getting screwed big time in telecommunications services.  One of the highest costs in the world.  Ridiculous.

    So mostly private isn't exactly the way to go.  Especially for education.  Actually, Education and Hospitals should never be fully private.  I wouldn't mind having some private hospitals for those who are wealthy so they can at least collect tax money on these private clinics, and the excess money can go back to the public health care.  And education should be looked after by the government but having private institutions that provide additional education, is not a problem.  It would be if they set their own curriculum.

    Mike E wrote:
    sepheronx wrote:You guys make a good point. But what about things like street cleaning or public transit equipment maintenance? Surely those things can be done by private without it going to total shit. No?

    But of course you make good points. I just think that having private schools and clinics in conjunction to public ones can help reduce costs, especially the fact Rich Russians already put themselves or their kids into private institutions (school on Skolkovo as example). Many of them probably leave to go to hospital elsewhere to spend money on better service. I say they can do that at home but still keep socialized mesical care for everyone else. Something like if you make $XXX,XXX a year, you will need to use private medical care, pay insurance.

    Just a thought.
    Actually that is very funny that you are talking about this.... The whole basis of my political ideology is privatizing services. - It has been tried in practice before, and having a "couple" services privatized wouldn't change much anyway.

    All depends on the services. For smaller things like garbage collection, waste processing, alternative energy, street maintenance and maintenance of the transit system can be privatized where it wont bog down the state and some can actually make taxable income.
    Mike E
    Mike E

    Posts : 2641
    Points : 2677
    Join date : 2014-06-19
    Location : Bay Area, CA

    Russian Economy General News: #2 - Page 22 Empty Re: Russian Economy General News: #2

    Post  Mike E on Sat Sep 20, 2014 8:55 pm

    sepheronx wrote:
    Mike E wrote:
    sepheronx wrote:You guys make a good point. But what about things like street cleaning or public transit equipment maintenance? Surely those things can be done by private without it going to total shit. No?

    But of course you make good points. I just think that having private schools and clinics in conjunction to public ones can help reduce costs, especially the fact Rich Russians already put themselves or their kids into private institutions (school on Skolkovo as example). Many of them probably leave to go to hospital elsewhere to spend money on better service. I say they can do that at home but still keep socialized mesical care for everyone else. Something like if you make $XXX,XXX a year, you will need to use private medical care, pay insurance.

    Just a thought.
    Actually that is very funny that you are talking about this.... The whole basis of my political ideology is privatizing services. - It has been tried in practice before, and having a "couple" services privatized wouldn't change much anyway.

    All depends on the services.  For smaller things like garbage collection, waste processing, alternative energy, street maintenance and maintenance of the transit system can be privatized where it wont bog down the state and some can actually make taxable income.

    I agree, as Russia doesn't want to go the Minarchist route (no country does) they should only privatize smaller services... As for the long term however, privatization can be extremely valuable. A great example is here in the US... Every thing our government does ends off screwing us citizens, while it lines the pockets of our politicians with gold. - What I'm trying to say is that privatization help prevents government corruptness, and at the same time it reduces the load on the government itself. I'd love to see Russia privatize more, but I doubt they ever will...
    Werewolf
    Werewolf

    Posts : 5251
    Points : 5454
    Join date : 2012-10-24

    Russian Economy General News: #2 - Page 22 Empty Re: Russian Economy General News: #2

    Post  Werewolf on Sat Sep 20, 2014 10:25 pm

    Not a single factor or aspect of the social sector should ever be in private hands. We can see it today in europe what privatization of social sector brings.
    In Portugal the water and sanitation was privatized now they pay 400% higher money just to have water, while they only had to pay for purification of water not for consumption itself, same now happens in germany only the left party said no in a vote while it was like all decision a non referendum and now there is already work and preparation and lobbyism to privatize the water.
    Hospitals go more and more to private sector due lobbying (oligarchy), Prisons becoming americanized and more and more aspects of Prisons become integrated into private companies, schools is the same almost every social important sector for a countries future is getting in private hands which has always negative outcomes since private companies don't have interest in future of many but only in future of minority which includes themselfs.

    Privatization is hazardous and is dooming any future of any country.
    NationalRus
    NationalRus

    Posts : 627
    Points : 634
    Join date : 2010-04-11

    Russian Economy General News: #2 - Page 22 Empty Re: Russian Economy General News: #2

    Post  NationalRus on Sat Sep 20, 2014 10:40 pm

    how sad, people dont know the diffrence between a real free market economy, real capitalism and what 98% of the world has today = a beurocratic, neopitistic, kleptocratic corporatist-wellfare system, was also called fascism befor the term got bad end 40's Laughing

    how sad
    Mike E
    Mike E

    Posts : 2641
    Points : 2677
    Join date : 2014-06-19
    Location : Bay Area, CA

    Russian Economy General News: #2 - Page 22 Empty Re: Russian Economy General News: #2

    Post  Mike E on Sat Sep 20, 2014 10:58 pm

    Werewolf wrote:Not a single factor or aspect of the social sector should ever be in private hands. We can see it today in europe what privatization of social sector brings.
    In Portugal the water and sanitation was privatized now they pay 400% higher money just to have water, while they only had to pay for purification of water not for consumption itself, same now happens in germany only the left party said no in a vote while it was like all decision a non referendum and now there is already work and preparation and lobbyism to privatize the water.
    Hospitals go more and more to private sector due lobbying (oligarchy), Prisons becoming americanized and more and more aspects of Prisons become integrated into private companies, schools is the same almost every social important sector for a countries future is getting in private hands which has always negative outcomes since private companies don't have interest in future of many but only in future of minority which includes themselfs.

    Privatization is hazardous and is dooming any future of any country.
    Well then, we clearly have different views... Here I believe that Statism kills a country, and you believe that the opposite kills a country... IMHO, they are very similar ideologies, the difference is that the power is all spread out in privatization, versus all clumped together in one, most likely corrupt, government. Having a competing government and privation at the same time might not work very well, to be completely honest. However, the other advantages of privatization are numerous....

    A) Less "power clumped together".... That is what our (US's) Founding Fathers were trying to prevent.

    B) Competition is good for the consumer (citizen in this case) and privatization will lead to competition.

    C) Unlike governments, private organizations don't create problems, just to later try and (fail to) fix them.

    D) It prevents lobbying of a central power, the opposite of this is what the US and many other countries have turned into.

    The private prisons are a terrible example Werewolf.... They are just some popped-up prisons that oligarchs own in order to get profit. Don't forget it is the GOVERNMENT that sends prisoners there and allows the to exist. If anything, they are a direct result of what happens to a desperate government that has no money and too many laws to count... With govt., these insinuations wouldn't need to exist in the first place!

    Yeah, cause governments "really" care for all people!lol1
    kvs
    kvs

    Posts : 6196
    Points : 6331
    Join date : 2014-09-11
    Location : Canuckistan

    Russian Economy General News: #2 - Page 22 Empty Re: Russian Economy General News: #2

    Post  kvs on Sat Sep 20, 2014 11:01 pm

    NationalRus wrote:how sad, people dont know the diffrence between a real free market economy, real capitalism and what 98% of the world has today = a beurocratic, neopitistic, kleptocratic corporatist-wellfare system, was also called fascism befor the term got bad end 40's Laughing  

    how sad

    How sad that there are no actual examples of the utopian vision you are pushing. Instead I have seen with my own eyes the rot in Canada over the last 30 odd years that this neocon ideology brings. Contracting out services means you get companies who are

    1) connected to the politicians so they do not actually compete for government business

    2) try to maximize their profits to the limit, so they hire the cheapest labour and charge the highest fees

    The result is decay and not flowering of utopia.

    Just like we have ideologue theoreticians on the left, we have them on the right and both are idiots who make this world a miserable place.
    Mike E
    Mike E

    Posts : 2641
    Points : 2677
    Join date : 2014-06-19
    Location : Bay Area, CA

    Russian Economy General News: #2 - Page 22 Empty Re: Russian Economy General News: #2

    Post  Mike E on Sat Sep 20, 2014 11:13 pm

    kvs wrote:
    NationalRus wrote:how sad, people dont know the diffrence between a real free market economy, real capitalism and what 98% of the world has today = a beurocratic, neopitistic, kleptocratic corporatist-wellfare system, was also called fascism befor the term got bad end 40's Laughing  

    how sad

    How sad that there are no actual examples of the utopian vision you are pushing.   Instead I have seen with my own eyes the rot in Canada over the last 30 odd years that this neocon ideology brings.   Contracting out services means you get companies who are

    1) connected to the politicians so they do not actually compete for government business

    2) try to maximize their profits to the limit, so they hire the cheapest labour and charge the highest fees

    The result is decay and not flowering of utopia.  

    Just like we have ideologue theoreticians on the left, we have them on the right and both are idiots who make this world a miserable place.
    Well, I agree and disagree. As I mentioned in my reply to Werewolf, a Statist government and privatization can not coexist successfully. It is a recipe for disaster, period. However, if there is no central government to lobby, then competition will exist and corruption shall diminish. - Not a Neocon.

    Or you could *just have a government*, in which case privatization will eventually arise. Competition is natural.
    NationalRus
    NationalRus

    Posts : 627
    Points : 634
    Join date : 2010-04-11

    Russian Economy General News: #2 - Page 22 Empty Re: Russian Economy General News: #2

    Post  NationalRus on Sat Sep 20, 2014 11:21 pm

    kvs wrote:
    NationalRus wrote:how sad, people dont know the diffrence between a real free market economy, real capitalism and what 98% of the world has today = a beurocratic, neopitistic, kleptocratic corporatist-wellfare system, was also called fascism befor the term got bad end 40's Laughing  

    how sad

    How sad that there are no actual examples of the utopian vision you are pushing.   Instead I have seen with my own eyes the rot in Canada over the last 30 odd years that this neocon ideology brings.   Contracting out services means you get companies who are

    1) connected to the politicians so they do not actually compete for government business

    2) try to maximize their profits to the limit, so they hire the cheapest labour and charge the highest fees

    The result is decay and not flowering of utopia.  

    Just like we have ideologue theoreticians on the left, we have them on the right and both are idiots who make this world a miserable place.

    ther are 3 countrys who come quite close, and about another 5 who are very decent in that direction, but when peple come with western europe as examples and say look, thats capitalism.... i mean WOW, we might give austria and switzerland a pass with 2 eyes closed but thats it.

    1) connected to the politicians so they do not actually compete for government business
    you know whats the problem, goverment, if ther are no favour for which you can ask then ther is no lobbing for them, what a sick idea anyay, everybody needs to compete but if you know a pig with tie and a pen in the regime you dont hve to becouse he can use his pen in your favour, how the fuck he has the power to do that in the firs place?

    2) try to maximize their profits to the limit, so they hire the cheapest labour and charge the highest fees

    this sentence doesnt make any sense, it actaully goes against free market and competition fundamentals, like saing a wheel naturaly rolls uphill...  i see i cant suggest to you a decent economic book for you, ther are to high, we have to start with step 1 with you, economics 101 lesson 1 basicaly... that would be THIS its so simple, it has huge amounts of pictural examples in "comic style" and is written in a easy basic langouge, nearly no technical term,i bought it for my littel brother, i hope i could help


    Last edited by NationalRus on Sun Sep 21, 2014 3:15 am; edited 1 time in total
    Mike E
    Mike E

    Posts : 2641
    Points : 2677
    Join date : 2014-06-19
    Location : Bay Area, CA

    Russian Economy General News: #2 - Page 22 Empty Re: Russian Economy General News: #2

    Post  Mike E on Sat Sep 20, 2014 11:28 pm

    NationalRus wrote:
    kvs wrote:
    NationalRus wrote:how sad, people dont know the diffrence between a real free market economy, real capitalism and what 98% of the world has today = a beurocratic, neopitistic, kleptocratic corporatist-wellfare system, was also called fascism befor the term got bad end 40's Laughing  

    how sad

    How sad that there are no actual examples of the utopian vision you are pushing.   Instead I have seen with my own eyes the rot in Canada over the last 30 odd years that this neocon ideology brings.   Contracting out services means you get companies who are

    1) connected to the politicians so they do not actually compete for government business

    2) try to maximize their profits to the limit, so they hire the cheapest labour and charge the highest fees

    The result is decay and not flowering of utopia.  

    Just like we have ideologue theoreticians on the left, we have them on the right and both are idiots who make this world a miserable place.

    ther are 3 countrys who come quite close, and about another 5 who are very decent in that direction, but when peple come with western europe as examples and say look, thats capitalism.... i mean WOW, we might give austria and switzerland a pass with 2 eyes closed but thats it.
    Have come close to what? So far, no country has ever gotten close to "true" privatization... Most of Europe uses the Keynesian school, which isn't even close to..... Modern day "Capitalism" is nothing more than a cover for the Corporatism found in most "developed" countries today. - Either that or the often-mentioned "Crony Capitalism". Austria and Switzerland are two of the most liberal countries in all of the world, only a few (NORWAY! Mad ) are more so. - If you meant a good mix of both govt. and privatization, that has also never existed. Most of the time, Statism comes out on top, which is very unfortunate.
    kvs
    kvs

    Posts : 6196
    Points : 6331
    Join date : 2014-09-11
    Location : Canuckistan

    Russian Economy General News: #2 - Page 22 Empty Re: Russian Economy General News: #2

    Post  kvs on Sat Sep 20, 2014 11:35 pm

    Everywhere that water delivery has been privatized has been a total disaster. Instead of applying the same cookie cutter "solution" to every situation a reasonable degree of pragmatism needs to be applied. The Canadian model of the 1970s was good enough. The other grotesque thing is that so-called fiscal conservatives are total frauds when it comes to being fiscally responsible. In the USA it was Reagan and George W. Bush who ran up the debt like a junkie on crack. Clinton left office is budget surpluses. In Canada, Mulroney tripled Trudeau's debt and ran away leaving Kim Campbell to unload a huge deficit on Liberal Cretien who fixed this mess. The debt has been a great racket for pushing a certain economic agenda.

    People in the former Soviet realm don't really understand how things are run in the west. The model America projects is a fiction. Instead of having social welfare, it has military industrial complex welfare and trickle down. Spending $1 trillion on weapons and imperial force projection is still big, bad government spending. France is routinely maligned as being full of unionized slackers, but it actually has functional health care system and shows no evidence of sinking into some morass after decades of "socialism". The health care system in Canada is going to hell in a hand basket as Canada tries to live according to the vision of the scumbag theoreticians. Back in the bad old days of the 1970s we did not have these problems.

    Russia is also an example of why theory should be kept on a leash. Both the 1917 theory and the Yeltsin era theory. It was interesting how Primakov managed to stop the economic collapse of 1998 by adopting policies not conformant to monetarist ideology. Putler also did not subscribe to the shock therapy witchdoctor medicine. See what that has resulted in. And Russia has amongst the lowest debt levels of the developed (more or less) world. Meanwhile the USA has $17 trillion in government debt. Shouldn't the USA be the country with the low debt level? It is living according to its economic beliefs, no?
    NationalRus
    NationalRus

    Posts : 627
    Points : 634
    Join date : 2010-04-11

    Russian Economy General News: #2 - Page 22 Empty Re: Russian Economy General News: #2

    Post  NationalRus on Sat Sep 20, 2014 11:49 pm

    Mike E wrote:
    NationalRus wrote:
    kvs wrote:
    NationalRus wrote:how sad, people dont know the diffrence between a real free market economy, real capitalism and what 98% of the world has today = a beurocratic, neopitistic, kleptocratic corporatist-wellfare system, was also called fascism befor the term got bad end 40's Laughing  

    how sad

    How sad that there are no actual examples of the utopian vision you are pushing.   Instead I have seen with my own eyes the rot in Canada over the last 30 odd years that this neocon ideology brings.   Contracting out services means you get companies who are

    1) connected to the politicians so they do not actually compete for government business

    2) try to maximize their profits to the limit, so they hire the cheapest labour and charge the highest fees

    The result is decay and not flowering of utopia.  

    Just like we have ideologue theoreticians on the left, we have them on the right and both are idiots who make this world a miserable place.

    ther are 3 countrys who come quite close, and about another 5 who are very decent in that direction, but when peple come with western europe as examples and say look, thats capitalism.... i mean WOW, we might give austria and switzerland a pass with 2 eyes closed but thats it.
    Have come close to what? So far, no country has ever gotten close to "true" privatization... Most of Europe uses the Keynesian school, which isn't even close to..... Modern day "Capitalism" is nothing more than a cover for the Corporatism found in most "developed" countries today. - Either that or the often-mentioned "Crony Capitalism". Austria and Switzerland are two of the most liberal countries in all of the world, only a few (NORWAY! Mad ) are more so. - If you meant a good mix of both govt. and privatization, that has also never existed. Most of the time, Statism comes out on top, which is very unfortunate.

    of course, i meant not comming close to a true liberterian economy but lets say "the least damaging" same with austria and switzerland, i by any means didnt say they have a capitalist system, of course i know they are corporatist in ther fundamentals to the core but at least the amount of beurocracy etc. is low enough not to be worth putting them in the same closet as rest of europe, liechtenstein could be also added to them but its so unimportant in size that i dont like mentioning it

    only hongkong and singapour are in ther own league since ther goverment was commited without a STOP and political swings to a freemarket for dacedes but yes they are mostly keynesian also.... just less then everybody else


    Last edited by NationalRus on Sat Sep 20, 2014 11:51 pm; edited 1 time in total
    Mike E
    Mike E

    Posts : 2641
    Points : 2677
    Join date : 2014-06-19
    Location : Bay Area, CA

    Russian Economy General News: #2 - Page 22 Empty Re: Russian Economy General News: #2

    Post  Mike E on Sat Sep 20, 2014 11:49 pm

    kvs wrote:Everywhere that water delivery has been privatized has been a total disaster.   Instead of applying the same cookie cutter "solution" to every situation a reasonable degree of pragmatism needs to be applied.   The Canadian model of the 1970s was good enough.   The other grotesque thing is that so-called fiscal conservatives are total frauds when it comes to being fiscally responsible.   In the USA it was Reagan and George W. Bush who ran up the debt like a junkie on crack.  Clinton left office is budget surpluses.   In Canada, Mulroney tripled Trudeau's debt and ran away leaving Kim Campbell to unload a huge deficit on Liberal Cretien who fixed this mess.   The debt has been a great racket for pushing a certain economic agenda.

    People in the former Soviet realm don't really understand how things are run in the west.   The model America projects is a fiction.   Instead of having social welfare, it has military industrial complex welfare and trickle down.   Spending $1 trillion on weapons and imperial force projection is still big, bad government spending.   France is routinely maligned as being full of unionized slackers, but it actually has functional health care system and shows no evidence of sinking into some morass after decades of "socialism".   The health care system in Canada is going to hell in a hand basket as Canada tries to live according to the vision of the scumbag theoreticians.   Back in the bad old days of the 1970s we did not have these problems.

    Russia is also an example of why theory should be kept on a leash.  Both the 1917 theory and the Yeltsin era theory.   It was interesting how Primakov managed to stop the economic collapse of 1998 by adopting policies not conformant to monetarist ideology.   Putler also did not subscribe to the shock therapy witchdoctor medicine.    See what that has resulted in.   And Russia has amongst the lowest debt levels of the developed (more or less) world.   Meanwhile the USA has $17 trillion in government debt.   Shouldn't the USA be the country with the low debt level?  It is living according to its economic beliefs, no?
    As I said, privatization and government do not mix... Also, your typical "privatize" ends off being a government-cause problem. - Go read what I said on "private prisons". Yeah, typical conservatives tend to be rather stupid at times (depends), but IMHO they still have a better economic awareness than Keynesians and/or Socialists... The problem actually isn't within the system itself, but inside of big money, corporations, statist governments, and most of all, LOBBYISTS!

    Our MIC is a direct result of our large government, as everything proves... France isn't Socialist for crying out loud! They are liberal, boosted by artificial inflation and the IMF much like the US. - Most here in the US are huge fans of the "universal" Canadian healthcare system, guess they are wrong...

    Did you just call Putin "Putler"? That is a typical Western troll phrase, and not something I expect coming from you... The US has a boatload of debt because of the Keynesian Fed, IMF, QE you name it. 
    KomissarBojanchev
    KomissarBojanchev

    Posts : 1440
    Points : 1601
    Join date : 2012-08-05
    Age : 22
    Location : Varna, Bulgaria

    Russian Economy General News: #2 - Page 22 Empty Re: Russian Economy General News: #2

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Sat Sep 20, 2014 11:51 pm


    Well then, we clearly have different views... Here I believe that Statism kills a country, and you believe that the opposite kills a country... IMHO, they are very similar ideologies, the difference is that the power is all spread out in privatization, versus all clumped together in one, most likely corrupt, government. Having a competing government and privation at the same time might not work very well, to be completely honest. However, the other advantages of privatization are numerous....

    A) Less "power clumped together".... That is what our (US's) Founding Fathers were trying to prevent.
    The founding fathers had much more important things to prevent back then, keeping their slaves at bay being one of them...

    B) Competition is good for the consumer (citizen in this case) and privatization will lead to competition.
    Oh stop that fallacy. We have competition here as far as yours can see here in bulgaria and all we get is massive adverts(and artificial outright poisonous crap as far as the food industry is concerned), with bad overpriced products and services. The same applies for the US. Old companies regularly outcompete new ones with a better or equal product due to outdated trademark reputation.

    And  competition in evil red statism is absent? Because  sukhoi and MiG didn't compete, KAMAZ and KRAZ also didn't , and also Tupolev and Ilyushin totally didn't compete.
    Man, how can these corporate millionaire libertarian think tank shills blind with their shit splattering?

    C) Unlike governments, private organizations don't create problems, just to later try and (fail to) fix them.
    Because it was the government that caused the 1929 and 2008 depression , right<sarcasm>
    Well, the US government(and most western capitalist govs for that matter) definately have a problem concerning the working class, and guess what, it hasn't done jack. Think again about who really controls the government, but you'll just keep blaming the mythical welfare queen, the legendary right wing punching bag.

    D) It prevents lobbying of a central power, the opposite of this is what the US and many other countries have turned into.
    What has the evuhl commi FED lobbied this time against the good rich job creator? Last I saw the stats private enterprises and banks of all sizes and types have been given continuously massive  priviliges in the last 34 years.

    The private prisons are a terrible example Werewolf.... They are just some popped-up prisons that oligarchs own in order to get profit. Don't forget it is the GOVERNMENT that sends prisoners there and allows the to exist. If anything, they are a direct result of what happens to a desperate government that has no money and too many laws to count... With govt., these insinuations wouldn't need to exist in the first place!
    Because in the fluffy treaded rattlesnake libertopia without muh evuhl cominazi FED, private prisons would without a doubt have less inmates and better conditions...  Rolling Eyes

    Yeah, cause governments "really" care for all people!lol1
    If the government is ruled by the working class, for the working class, then yes it is possible.[/quote]
    Mike E
    Mike E

    Posts : 2641
    Points : 2677
    Join date : 2014-06-19
    Location : Bay Area, CA

    Russian Economy General News: #2 - Page 22 Empty Re: Russian Economy General News: #2

    Post  Mike E on Sat Sep 20, 2014 11:53 pm

    NationalRus wrote:
    Mike E wrote:Have come close to what? So far, no country has ever gotten close to "true" privatization... Most of Europe uses the Keynesian school, which isn't even close to..... Modern day "Capitalism" is nothing more than a cover for the Corporatism found in most "developed" countries today. - Either that or the often-mentioned "Crony Capitalism". Austria and Switzerland are two of the most liberal countries in all of the world, only a few (NORWAY! Mad ) are more so. - If you meant a good mix of both govt. and privatization, that has also never existed. Most of the time, Statism comes out on top, which is very unfortunate.

    of course, i meant not comming close to a true liberterian economy but lets say "the least damaging" same with austria and switzerland, i by any means didnt say they have a capitalist system, of course i know they are corporatist in ther fundamentals to the core but at least the amount of beurocracy etc. is low enough not to be worth putting them in the same closet as rest of europe, lichtenstein could be also added to them but its so unimportant in size that i dont like mentioning it

    only hongkong and singapour are in ther own league since ther goverment was commited without a STOP and political swings to a freemarket for dacedes but yes they are mostly keynesian also.... just less then everybody else
    In that case, I don't really know what you're trying to imply... Did you mean that they are "successful" economies or no? - If that is the case, they are successful, but some of that success is due to, once again, artificial inflation. The same thing with Lichtenstein, except that they are a much smaller country that is only successful becuase of their ridiculously rich inhabitants. All mentioned countries are very liberal, as it is in most of Europe.
    NationalRus
    NationalRus

    Posts : 627
    Points : 634
    Join date : 2010-04-11

    Russian Economy General News: #2 - Page 22 Empty Re: Russian Economy General News: #2

    Post  NationalRus on Sat Sep 20, 2014 11:56 pm

    Mike E wrote:
    kvs wrote:Everywhere that water delivery has been privatized has been a total disaster.   Instead of applying the same cookie cutter "solution" to every situation a reasonable degree of pragmatism needs to be applied.   The Canadian model of the 1970s was good enough.   The other grotesque thing is that so-called fiscal conservatives are total frauds when it comes to being fiscally responsible.   In the USA it was Reagan and George W. Bush who ran up the debt like a junkie on crack.  Clinton left office is budget surpluses.   In Canada, Mulroney tripled Trudeau's debt and ran away leaving Kim Campbell to unload a huge deficit on Liberal Cretien who fixed this mess.   The debt has been a great racket for pushing a certain economic agenda.

    People in the former Soviet realm don't really understand how things are run in the west.   The model America projects is a fiction.   Instead of having social welfare, it has military industrial complex welfare and trickle down.   Spending $1 trillion on weapons and imperial force projection is still big, bad government spending.   France is routinely maligned as being full of unionized slackers, but it actually has functional health care system and shows no evidence of sinking into some morass after decades of "socialism".   The health care system in Canada is going to hell in a hand basket as Canada tries to live according to the vision of the scumbag theoreticians.   Back in the bad old days of the 1970s we did not have these problems.

    Russia is also an example of why theory should be kept on a leash.  Both the 1917 theory and the Yeltsin era theory.   It was interesting how Primakov managed to stop the economic collapse of 1998 by adopting policies not conformant to monetarist ideology.   Putler also did not subscribe to the shock therapy witchdoctor medicine.    See what that has resulted in.   And Russia has amongst the lowest debt levels of the developed (more or less) world.   Meanwhile the USA has $17 trillion in government debt.   Shouldn't the USA be the country with the low debt level?  It is living according to its economic beliefs, no?
    As I said, privatization and government do not mix... Also, your typical "privatize" ends off being a government-cause problem. - Go read what I said on "private prisons". Yeah, typical conservatives tend to be rather stupid at times (depends), but IMHO they still have a better economic awareness than Keynesians and/or Socialists... The problem actually isn't within the system itself, but inside of big money, corporations, statist governments, and most of all, LOBBYISTS!

    Our MIC is a direct result of our large government, as everything proves... France isn't Socialist for crying out loud! They are liberal, boosted by artificial inflation and the IMF much like the US. - Most here in the US are huge fans of the "universal" Canadian healthcare system, guess they are wrong...

    Did you just call Putin "Putler"? That is a typical Western troll phrase, and not something I expect coming from you... The US has a boatload of debt because of the Keynesian Fed, IMF, QE you name it. 

    ignore him, i mean if someone cant even recognize that russia in the 90's whent to the biggest corporatist neopitistic sellout in human history by defenition, were factorys and industry's were sold to friends at 1% worth or even less and say to that that's a legitamate freemarket competition adaption then ther is nothing more to descuss,
    NationalRus
    NationalRus

    Posts : 627
    Points : 634
    Join date : 2010-04-11

    Russian Economy General News: #2 - Page 22 Empty Re: Russian Economy General News: #2

    Post  NationalRus on Sun Sep 21, 2014 12:06 am

    Mike E wrote:
    NationalRus wrote:
    Mike E wrote:Have come close to what? So far, no country has ever gotten close to "true" privatization... Most of Europe uses the Keynesian school, which isn't even close to..... Modern day "Capitalism" is nothing more than a cover for the Corporatism found in most "developed" countries today. - Either that or the often-mentioned "Crony Capitalism". Austria and Switzerland are two of the most liberal countries in all of the world, only a few (NORWAY! Mad ) are more so. - If you meant a good mix of both govt. and privatization, that has also never existed. Most of the time, Statism comes out on top, which is very unfortunate.

    of course, i meant not comming close to a true liberterian economy but lets say "the least damaging" same with austria and switzerland, i by any means didnt say they have a capitalist system, of course i know they are corporatist in ther fundamentals to the core but at least the amount of beurocracy etc. is low enough not to be worth putting them in the same closet as rest of europe, lichtenstein could be also added to them but its so unimportant in size that i dont like mentioning it

    only hongkong and singapour are in ther own league since ther goverment was commited without a STOP and political swings to a freemarket for dacedes but yes they are mostly keynesian also.... just less then everybody else
    In that case, I don't really know what you're trying to imply... Did you mean that they are "successful" economies or no? - If that is the case, they are successful, but some of that success is due to, once again, artificial inflation. The same thing with Lichtenstein, except that they are a much smaller country that is only successful becuase of their ridiculously rich inhabitants. All mentioned countries are very liberal, as it is in most of Europe.

    yes i mean they have low enough beurocracy and just enough freemarket to be successful in comperison to the rest of europe, liechtenstein has a very good devoloped financial market and the few industrys that operatet ther are competetive and efficiant to the core

    by the way austria is one of the most conservatives countrys in west europe, FPÖ is even not just conservative but far-right, and they got 20% switzerland is deep devided, many liberal areas, mosty big citys and many conservative ones, i small region was even so conservative they introduced woman's votin right in....1994! and that by demand not own vote, with a true federalist system you can move ther in a conservative region without being afraid of the central goverment
    Mike E
    Mike E

    Posts : 2641
    Points : 2677
    Join date : 2014-06-19
    Location : Bay Area, CA

    Russian Economy General News: #2 - Page 22 Empty Re: Russian Economy General News: #2

    Post  Mike E on Sun Sep 21, 2014 12:10 am

    KomissarBojanchev wrote:
    Well then, we clearly have different views... Here I believe that Statism kills a country, and you believe that the opposite kills a country... IMHO, they are very similar ideologies, the difference is that the power is all spread out in privatization, versus all clumped together in one, most likely corrupt, government. Having a competing government and privation at the same time might not work very well, to be completely honest. However, the other advantages of privatization are numerous....

    A) Less "power clumped together".... That is what our (US's) Founding Fathers were trying to prevent.
    The founding fathers had much more important things to prevent back then, keeping their slaves at bay being one of them...

    B) Competition is good for the consumer (citizen in this case) and privatization will lead to competition.
    Oh stop that fallacy. We have competition here as far as yours can see here in bulgaria and all we get is massive adverts(and artificial outright poisonous crap as far as the food industry is concerned), with bad overpriced products and services. The same applies for the US. Old companies regularly outcompete new ones with a better or equal product due to outdated trademark reputation.

    And  competition in evil red statism is absent? Because  sukhoi and MiG didn't compete, KAMAZ and KRAZ also didn't , and also Tupolev and Ilyushin totally didn't compete.
    Man, how can these corporate millionaire libertarian think tank shills blind with their shit splattering?

    C) Unlike governments, private organizations don't create problems, just to later try and (fail to) fix them.
    Because it was the government that caused the 1929 and 2008 depression , right<sarcasm>
    Well, the US government(and most western capitalist govs for that matter) definately have a problem concerning the working class, and guess what, it hasn't done jack. Think again about who really controls the government, but you'll just keep blaming the mythical welfare queen, the legendary right wing punching bag.

    D) It prevents lobbying of a central power, the opposite of this is what the US and many other countries have turned into.
    What has the evuhl commi FED lobbied this time against the good rich job creator? Last I saw the stats private enterprises and banks of all sizes and types have been given continuously massive  priviliges in the last 34 years.

    The private prisons are a terrible example Werewolf.... They are just some popped-up prisons that oligarchs own in order to get profit. Don't forget it is the GOVERNMENT that sends prisoners there and allows the to exist. If anything, they are a direct result of what happens to a desperate government that has no money and too many laws to count... With govt., these insinuations wouldn't need to exist in the first place!
    Because in the fluffy treaded rattlesnake libertopia without muh evuhl cominazi FED, private prisons would without a doubt have less inmates and better conditions...  Rolling Eyes

    Yeah, cause governments "really" care for all people!lol1
    If the government is ruled by the working class, for the working class, then yes it is possible.
    Typical response that has nothing to do with the topic. The government they created wasn't statist, hence their success.

    Yeah right... Here in the good ole' corrupted US of A I see competition in work everyday, and we are nowhere even near being privatized! Things are overpriced, but that has nothing to do with "private" goods and everything to do with our messed up economic system never mind the Fed. If you reply, at least have some basis for your argument... Read a book on economics by Ron Paul, he may not be perfect, but he says it all in a way I can only dream off... Ever here of a "Start-up"? They are absolutely killing larger companies right now, and they are "new". Sure they did compete, but that wasn't what I'd  call "beneficial competition". - If MiG won a contract, they'd get engineers from Sukhoi and vice-versa, it was a mess.

    Uhh, the Fed is the one that is responsible for both, and the Great Depression was also a result of changing economic policies and new tariffs etc. - I'd know, I live here!
    They aren't capitalist, they are crony-capitalists based governments who are in all reality, corporatocracy's! - Huge difference there. If you couldn't tell already, the reason they don't care for the poor and/or middle class is becuase of the lobbyists and big corporations who stick Washington up their $#%&$! - It is a result of having a large government in the first place! You are just helping me prove my point... 

    It is the owners of the mentioned prisons who are lobbying... The Fed has absolutely nothing to do with the so-called "private prisons" except for the fact that their failed economic "policies" are what created them!

    I'm not a Libertarian.... The reason we have "private prisons" in the first place is becuase of intervention (laws) that were brought INTO EXISTENCE BY THE GOVERNMENT! See a pattern here? It is all a result of either the Fed and/or government (and lobbyists you get the idea)! Denying this is idiocy.

    Uhh give me a break, there is nothing more Utopian than a government that is "ruled by the middle-class". No such government has or will ever exist, and the CCCP is included. How about this, give everybody equal opportunity, completely demolish the effects of corporations and lobbyists, limit corruption, all via no Government or a Minarchist one....
    Mike E
    Mike E

    Posts : 2641
    Points : 2677
    Join date : 2014-06-19
    Location : Bay Area, CA

    Russian Economy General News: #2 - Page 22 Empty Re: Russian Economy General News: #2

    Post  Mike E on Sun Sep 21, 2014 12:13 am

    NationalRus wrote:
    Mike E wrote:
    NationalRus wrote:
    Mike E wrote:Have come close to what? So far, no country has ever gotten close to "true" privatization... Most of Europe uses the Keynesian school, which isn't even close to..... Modern day "Capitalism" is nothing more than a cover for the Corporatism found in most "developed" countries today. - Either that or the often-mentioned "Crony Capitalism". Austria and Switzerland are two of the most liberal countries in all of the world, only a few (NORWAY! Mad ) are more so. - If you meant a good mix of both govt. and privatization, that has also never existed. Most of the time, Statism comes out on top, which is very unfortunate.

    of course, i meant not comming close to a true liberterian economy but lets say "the least damaging" same with austria and switzerland, i by any means didnt say they have a capitalist system, of course i know they are corporatist in ther fundamentals to the core but at least the amount of beurocracy etc. is low enough not to be worth putting them in the same closet as rest of europe, lichtenstein could be also added to them but its so unimportant in size that i dont like mentioning it

    only hongkong and singapour are in ther own league since ther goverment was commited without a STOP and political swings to a freemarket for dacedes but yes they are mostly keynesian also.... just less then everybody else
    In that case, I don't really know what you're trying to imply... Did you mean that they are "successful" economies or no? - If that is the case, they are successful, but some of that success is due to, once again, artificial inflation. The same thing with Lichtenstein, except that they are a much smaller country that is only successful becuase of their ridiculously rich inhabitants. All mentioned countries are very liberal, as it is in most of Europe.

    yes i mean they have low enough beurocracy and just enough freemarket to be successful in comperison to the rest of europe, liechtenstein has a very good devoloped financial market and the few industrys that operatet ther are competetive and efficiant to the core

    by the way austria is one of the most conservatives countrys in west europe, FPÖ is even not just conservative but far-right, and they got 20% switzerland is deep devided, many liberal areas, mosty big citys and many conservative ones, i small region was even so conservative they introduced woman's votin right in....1994! and that by demand not own vote, with a true federalist system you can move ther in a conservative region without being afraid of the central goverment
    Got ya... 

    European "conservative" = American "liberal". Women's rights are a liberal movement, and not a conservative one...  (They are both liberal and conservative) IMHO federalism is better than your typical, statist, central government.
    kvs
    kvs

    Posts : 6196
    Points : 6331
    Join date : 2014-09-11
    Location : Canuckistan

    Russian Economy General News: #2 - Page 22 Empty Re: Russian Economy General News: #2

    Post  kvs on Sun Sep 21, 2014 3:02 am

    Mike E wrote:
    As I said, privatization and government do not mix... Also, your typical "privatize" ends off being a government-cause problem. - Go read what I said on "private prisons". Yeah, typical conservatives tend to be rather stupid at times (depends), but IMHO they still have a better economic awareness than Keynesians and/or Socialists... The problem actually isn't within the system itself, but inside of big money, corporations, statist governments, and most of all, LOBBYISTS!

    Our MIC is a direct result of our large government, as everything proves... France isn't Socialist for crying out loud! They are liberal, boosted by artificial inflation and the IMF much like the US. - Most here in the US are huge fans of the "universal" Canadian healthcare system, guess they are wrong...

    Did you just call Putin "Putler"? That is a typical Western troll phrase, and not something I expect coming from you... The US has a boatload of debt because of the Keynesian Fed, IMF, QE you name it. 

    I was being sarcastic. Yeltsin was feted as some great democrat and Putin is demonized as a tyrant. The opposite is true. Yeltsin packed Russian jails and Putin released near 200,000 by introducing proper judicial reform, including probation and jury trials.

    My view is that the government and the private sector don't mix. Government has no spine when negotiating contracts and gets taken for a ride by colluding contract bidders. The best solution is to identify which functions should be done by government employees and what should be left to private enterprise. In the government itself there should be reasonable decentralization of decision making (of course with budgetary oversight) and having to spend all your time contacting clueless idiots in the capital city for every thing from the purchase of a pencil to a desktop computer should not be tolerated. Unfortunately, in Canada the "Conservatives" are behaving like the Soviets and stripping decentralized decision making power.
    Mike E
    Mike E

    Posts : 2641
    Points : 2677
    Join date : 2014-06-19
    Location : Bay Area, CA

    Russian Economy General News: #2 - Page 22 Empty Re: Russian Economy General News: #2

    Post  Mike E on Sun Sep 21, 2014 3:22 am

    kvs wrote:
    Mike E wrote:
    As I said, privatization and government do not mix... Also, your typical "privatize" ends off being a government-cause problem. - Go read what I said on "private prisons". Yeah, typical conservatives tend to be rather stupid at times (depends), but IMHO they still have a better economic awareness than Keynesians and/or Socialists... The problem actually isn't within the system itself, but inside of big money, corporations, statist governments, and most of all, LOBBYISTS!

    Our MIC is a direct result of our large government, as everything proves... France isn't Socialist for crying out loud! They are liberal, boosted by artificial inflation and the IMF much like the US. - Most here in the US are huge fans of the "universal" Canadian healthcare system, guess they are wrong...

    Did you just call Putin "Putler"? That is a typical Western troll phrase, and not something I expect coming from you... The US has a boatload of debt because of the Keynesian Fed, IMF, QE you name it. 

    I was being sarcastic.   Yeltsin was feted as some great democrat and Putin is demonized as a tyrant.   The opposite is true.   Yeltsin packed Russian jails and Putin released near 200,000 by introducing proper judicial reform, including probation and jury trials.  

    My view is that the government and the private sector don't mix.   Government has no spine when negotiating contracts and gets taken for a ride by colluding contract bidders.   The best solution is to identify which functions should be done by government employees and what should be left to private enterprise.   In the government itself there should be reasonable decentralization of decision making (of course with budgetary oversight) and having to spend all your time contacting clueless idiots in the capital city for every thing from the purchase of a pencil to a desktop computer should not be tolerated.   Unfortunately, in Canada the "Conservatives" are behaving like the Soviets and stripping decentralized decision making power.    
    Okay, just making sure.... We've seen a recent bump in trolls around here!

    Then we are on the same page... Government and privatization don't mix, nice to see another person that thinks the same. IMHO, in all "developed democratic or republic countries" the main parties are all the same crap. The "conservatives" here in the US look like "liberals" (in the "Democrat" sense, real classic liberals are much more intelligent IMO yet again), while the Democrats look the same... The only difference is who funds them, and even that difference is slim...
    magnumcromagnon
    magnumcromagnon

    Posts : 5781
    Points : 5932
    Join date : 2013-12-05
    Location : Pindos ave., Pindosville, Pindosylvania, Pindostan

    Russian Economy General News: #2 - Page 22 Empty Re: Russian Economy General News: #2

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Sun Sep 21, 2014 4:32 am

    Mike E wrote:
    GarryB wrote:The west has a huge ego and thinks if they reject a country it will shrivel and die... 
    lol1 Wow, that is a great explanation GarryB....

    In 2013 Russia and China struck a $350 billion crude oil deal, in 2014 a $400 billion natural gas deal, plus additionally over $100 billion worth of joint projects. In the past two years Russia struck nearly $1 trillion ($850 billion to be exact) worth of FDI deals with China, and there's still a 2nd natural gas pipeline deal to be created with China before the end of the year which may make the number surpass the $1 trillion mark!
    higurashihougi
    higurashihougi

    Posts : 2268
    Points : 2359
    Join date : 2014-08-13
    Location : A small and cutie S-shaped land.

    Russian Economy General News: #2 - Page 22 Empty Re: Russian Economy General News: #2

    Post  higurashihougi on Sun Sep 21, 2014 9:18 am

    Economics is not my specialization, but due to my experience I will say:

    1)Oligarchs do not only appeared in private sector, but also in state-owned sector, too. Private oligarchs are seen a lot in the U.S. State-owned oligarchs were in the former USSR. Some corrputed people use the cover of "public service" to make money for their selfish needs. For me, most oligarchs, whether in private or state-owned sector, are bullshits liars who only care for themselves.

    2)Privatization increase the competitiveness, autonomous and independence of local small enterprises, and enable the people to share the burden of the State. Nationalization increase the strength of the State, increase the public services and welfare, and reduce the power of oligarchs who try to monopolize the market.

    3)The principle is that "do not let too much wealth lies in the hand of too few people". Depends on the circumstance, who is having too much, we choose privatization or nationalization. A mixed economy with strong and large state-owned enterprises in vital sectors, and extensive privatization in other ones seems to be most suitable.

    4)Being born in a Socialist country, I am a strong supporter of Statism, and I prefer a strong and extensive healthcare, education, media system owned by the State. Private enterprise needs to be maintained to create competitiveness. Military enterprises, of course, must be 100% state-owned.

    5)All kinds of land has to be public-owned, not private-owned. I don't know about the law in the U.S., but in Vietnam, public-owned is different from state-owned. It means that both the people and the state are the co-owners of the land. If the state want to take the land, it has to ask the people.

    Only if the state use that land for the sake of national defence, national security, public benefits, national economy (schools, parks, culture centers, commercial centers...), it can take the land without the agreement of the people.

    Mike E wrote:
    European "conservative" = American "liberal". Women's rights are a liberal movement, and not a conservative one...  (They are both liberal and conservative) IMHO federalism is better than your typical, statist, central government.

    Correct me if I am wrong, but for me, unlike the EU, in the U.S. politicians tends to not claim themselves to be left-wing or socialist, and the policies tends to be more neoliberal than the EU. The effect of "Red Scare" tends to be quite strong and long-lasting.

    Again, correct me if I am wrong.


    Last edited by higurashihougi on Sun Sep 21, 2014 2:10 pm; edited 2 times in total
    dino00
    dino00

    Posts : 1220
    Points : 1261
    Join date : 2012-10-12
    Age : 32
    Location : portugal

    Russian Economy General News: #2 - Page 22 Empty Re: Russian Economy General News: #2

    Post  dino00 on Sun Sep 21, 2014 11:15 am

    Werewolf wrote:Not a single factor or aspect of the social sector should ever be in private hands. We can see it today in europe what privatization of social sector brings.
    In Portugal the water and sanitation was privatized now they pay 400% higher money just to have water, while they only had to pay for purification of water not for consumption itself, same now happens in germany only the left party said no in a vote while it was like all decision a non referendum and now there is already work and preparation and lobbyism to privatize the water.
    Hospitals go more and more to private sector due lobbying (oligarchy), Prisons becoming americanized and more and more aspects of Prisons become integrated into private companies, schools is the same almost every social important sector for a countries future is getting in private hands which has always negative outcomes since private companies don't have interest in future of many but only in future of minority which includes themselfs.

    Privatization is hazardous and is dooming any future of any country.

    I am Portuguese and thats not true, the water is public and the 400% number is ludicrious.
    You have any link, or maybe you mistake the country.
    Werewolf
    Werewolf

    Posts : 5251
    Points : 5454
    Join date : 2012-10-24

    Russian Economy General News: #2 - Page 22 Empty Re: Russian Economy General News: #2

    Post  Werewolf on Sun Sep 21, 2014 11:27 am

    dino00 wrote:
    Werewolf wrote:Not a single factor or aspect of the social sector should ever be in private hands. We can see it today in europe what privatization of social sector brings.
    In Portugal the water and sanitation was privatized now they pay 400% higher money just to have water, while they only had to pay for purification of water not for consumption itself, same now happens in germany only the left party said no in a vote while it was like all decision a non referendum and now there is already work and preparation and lobbyism to privatize the water.
    Hospitals go more and more to private sector due lobbying (oligarchy), Prisons becoming americanized and more and more aspects of Prisons become integrated into private companies, schools is the same almost every social important sector for a countries future is getting in private hands which has always negative outcomes since private companies don't have interest in future of many but only in future of minority which includes themselfs.

    Privatization is hazardous and is dooming any future of any country.

    I am Portuguese and thats not true, the water is public and the 400% number is ludicrious.
    You have any link, or maybe you mistake the country.

    Sorry, i made a little mistake it was a city in portugal and the decision in 2013 was about widening the privatized concept for entire portugal.

    http://www.right2water.eu/nl/node/279

    The Municipality of Pacos de Ferreira on the sale made a profit only once, now the citizens must live with the consequences. People show us their bills: And indeed, the monthly amounts are horrendous, many citizens now have problems paying their drinking water.
    Humberto Brito, civic movement 6th November
    Humberto Brito, civic movement 6th November (MONITOR translation): "The consequences of privatization here in Pacos de Ferreira were devastating. We had a 400% price increase in a few years. And then again every year 6% price increase. This is a disaster. "
    dino00
    dino00

    Posts : 1220
    Points : 1261
    Join date : 2012-10-12
    Age : 32
    Location : portugal

    Russian Economy General News: #2 - Page 22 Empty Re: Russian Economy General News: #2

    Post  dino00 on Sun Sep 21, 2014 1:43 pm

    Ok that i believe thumbsup .
    They want to privatize the water in all country, but thats not gonna happen.
    This and others examples should show to Russia and other countrys tha privatize estrategical services will be a mistake.

    Sponsored content

    Russian Economy General News: #2 - Page 22 Empty Re: Russian Economy General News: #2

    Post  Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Mon Jun 01, 2020 2:24 pm