Russia Defence Forum

Would you like to react to this message? Create an account in a few clicks or log in to continue.

Military Forum for Russian and Global Defence Issues


+80
kumbor
Hole
dino00
william.boutros
Admin
calripson
Nibiru
predator300029
eehnie
The-thing-next-door
GunshipDemocracy
Walther von Oldenburg
KomissarBojanchev
cap1400
Peŕrier
ZoA
runaway
Cyberspec
flamming_python
GarryB
ATLASCUB
Stealthflanker
Azi
miketheterrible
Kimppis
Yuri
T-47
HM1199
jhelb
Sochi_Olympic_Park
a-andreich
Vann7
Isos
Rmf
kvs
Viktor
JohninMK
George1
AlfaT8
hoom
headshot69
volna
A1RMAN
0nillie0
Mike E
VladimirSahin
Project Canada
KiloGolf
par far
Benya
galicije83
airstrike
xeno
Zivo
zg18
marcellogo
Pincus Shain
chicken
sepheronx
Dima
cracker
DerWolf
medo
TheArmenian
Austin
Mindstorm
max steel
OminousSpudd
higurashihougi
Big_Gazza
BKP
PapaDragon
nemrod
franco
magnumcromagnon
KoTeMoRe
x_54_u43
calm
Werewolf
Cyrus the great
84 posters

    [Official] Armata Discussion thread #4

    miketheterrible
    miketheterrible


    Posts : 7383
    Points : 7341
    Join date : 2016-11-06

    [Official] Armata Discussion thread #4 - Page 34 Empty Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #4

    Post  miketheterrible Thu Aug 16, 2018 1:41 pm

    He never said cancelled for either of said equipment. Please provide evidence he has.

    I'll wait
    PapaDragon
    PapaDragon


    Posts : 13243
    Points : 13285
    Join date : 2015-04-26
    Location : Fort Evil, Serbia

    [Official] Armata Discussion thread #4 - Page 34 Empty Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #4

    Post  PapaDragon Thu Aug 16, 2018 3:07 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:He never said cancelled for either of said equipment. Please provide evidence he has.

    I'll wait

    And I'll wait until they introduce Armata.

    Borisov said:

    Vice Prime Minister Borisov complained about the high cost of the tanks "Armata"

    Deputy Prime Minister Yuri Borisov believes that now there is no need to equip the Armed Forces of Russia with a large number of such equipment as Armata or Bumerang BTR, since the latest versions of the T-72 tanks have high efficiency

    Every single word in that statement is complete BS. He is not only after canceling Armata but Boomerang as well. I can't see Kurganets lasting too long either.
    miketheterrible
    miketheterrible


    Posts : 7383
    Points : 7341
    Join date : 2016-11-06

    [Official] Armata Discussion thread #4 - Page 34 Empty Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #4

    Post  miketheterrible Thu Aug 16, 2018 3:42 pm

    Vice Prime Minister Borisov complained about the high cost of the tanks "Armata"

    Deputy Prime Minister Yuri Borisov believes that now there is no need to equip the Armed Forces of Russia with a large number of such equipment as Armata or Bumerang BTR, since the latest versions of the T-72 tanks have high efficiency

    Hmm.  I don't see the word canceled.  Do you?

    Matter of fact is, Russia wouldn't have spent the money it has producing the tech if they don't intend to purchase it. If they intend to introduce some of that tech in other jets, tanks and what not fine. Boomerang is much more needed than Armata as the BTR-80 series is really out of date and needs to be gone asap. Rest is questionable. He never said canceled but you got to hand it to him, he makes a point - why purchase all of this if it barely is beyond what is currently fielded? He is obviously doing something that escaped most of the rest of you - forcing the MiC to produce it cheaper or improve it. Armata's case - cheaper. And he never said canceled, he said not produced en mass. Meaning it wont be 2,500 tanks in a few years. Maybe in a decade or two.

    I seriously do not get the mass hysteria that revolved around this site. Either english escapes a lot of you, or you just read something that isn' there.

    BTW, maybe China has their Borisov too?

    https://vpk.name/news/224532_kitai_moderniziroval_su35_i_serezno_uvelichil_ego_boevuyu_mosh.html

    esmotrya that the fifth generation fighter J-20 are now being delivered to the Chinese army, due to limitations associated with costs and production volumes, planes of the fourth generation and generation "4+" will be in service for quite a long time. Therefore, the improvement of combat vehicles-level su-27 is a critical need to improve the combat capability of the army.

    https://www.toutiao.com/a6586840927761859080/
    Hole
    Hole


    Posts : 10504
    Points : 10482
    Join date : 2018-03-24
    Age : 47
    Location : Scholzistan

    [Official] Armata Discussion thread #4 - Page 34 Empty Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #4

    Post  Hole Thu Aug 16, 2018 4:16 pm

    Man, this reasonable thinking in Russia and China will be bad news for "our friends and partners" in Amiland. Twisted Evil
    eehnie
    eehnie


    Posts : 2425
    Points : 2428
    Join date : 2015-05-13

    [Official] Armata Discussion thread #4 - Page 34 Empty Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #4

    Post  eehnie Thu Aug 16, 2018 4:36 pm

    Pro-US and pro-Israel people is wishing desperately to see everything fail:

    - Project 23000
    - Project 23560
    - Su-57
    - Tu-PAK-DA
    - MiG-41
    - Armata
    - S-500
    - SS-30 Sarmat
    ...

    PapaDragon
    PapaDragon


    Posts : 13243
    Points : 13285
    Join date : 2015-04-26
    Location : Fort Evil, Serbia

    [Official] Armata Discussion thread #4 - Page 34 Empty Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #4

    Post  PapaDragon Thu Aug 16, 2018 5:51 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:
    Vice Prime Minister Borisov complained about the high cost of the tanks "Armata"

    Deputy Prime Minister Yuri Borisov believes that now there is no need to equip the Armed Forces of Russia with a large number of such equipment as Armata or Bumerang BTR, since the latest versions of the T-72 tanks have high efficiency

    Hmm.  I don't see the word canceled.  Do you?.........


    Give it time.

    Buran, Energia, Rus-M, Black Eagle MBT, Clipper, AN-97, etc... none of them were cancelled immediately.

    It's just that as always it turned out that "the latest versions of the [insert obsolete model here] have high efficiency".

    And once everyone forgets the new thing ever existed it would quietly get the hatchet.


    miketheterrible wrote:...Matter of fact is, Russia wouldn't have spent the money it has producing the tech if they don't intend to purchase it. .......

    I know you are trying to make a joke here but it's not really funny at all. It's tragic in fact. Just look at that little preview list I just posted... money spent, never purchased. Canceled and forgotten.
    Nibiru
    Nibiru


    Posts : 200
    Points : 202
    Join date : 2018-05-22

    [Official] Armata Discussion thread #4 - Page 34 Empty Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #4

    Post  Nibiru Thu Aug 16, 2018 6:00 pm

    They should have sticked with the Black Eagle MBT if they're just going to cancel Armata, at least BE is a level higher than the T-90 in the tech tree
    SeigSoloyvov
    SeigSoloyvov


    Posts : 3692
    Points : 3672
    Join date : 2016-04-08

    [Official] Armata Discussion thread #4 - Page 34 Empty Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #4

    Post  SeigSoloyvov Thu Aug 16, 2018 6:12 pm

    Nibiru wrote:They should have sticked with the Black Eagle MBT if they're just going to cancel Armata, at least BE is a level higher than the T-90 in the tech tree

    they aren't going to cancel the Armata but they will not produce it in large numbers. Maybe when their GDP gets better but for now they cannot afford to replace everything with that tank their main tank units will get them is all etc their elite groups.
    miketheterrible
    miketheterrible


    Posts : 7383
    Points : 7341
    Join date : 2016-11-06

    [Official] Armata Discussion thread #4 - Page 34 Empty Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #4

    Post  miketheterrible Thu Aug 16, 2018 6:40 pm

    Black eagle tank was nothing. It didn't really exist. It was a concept. An-94 was an expensive, complicated rifle but did see extensive use in chechen wars.

    Armata is being made. If you have beef with Borisov, take it up with him. It he said what he said. Not being made enass doesn't mean Cancelled and that is just your guys own stupidity
    PapaDragon
    PapaDragon


    Posts : 13243
    Points : 13285
    Join date : 2015-04-26
    Location : Fort Evil, Serbia

    [Official] Armata Discussion thread #4 - Page 34 Empty Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #4

    Post  PapaDragon Thu Aug 16, 2018 6:48 pm

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:
    Nibiru wrote:They should have sticked with the Black Eagle MBT if they're just going to cancel Armata, at least BE is a level higher than the T-90 in the tech tree

    they aren't going to cancel the Armata but they will not produce it in large numbers. Maybe when their GDP gets better but for now they cannot afford to replace everything with that tank their main tank units will get them is all etc their elite groups.

    Production in high numbers was the whole point since it was not just about tank but whole family of vehicles. It was advertised as "unified platform".

    Now they are stuck with White Elephant the Land Version.

    Another failure. List grows ever longer...


    miketheterrible wrote:.....Armata is being made. If you have beef with Borisov, take it up with him. It he said what he said. Not being made enass doesn't mean Cancelled and that is just your guys own stupidity

    He is high ranking government official who went on record. He was not corrected, not reprimanded and not sacked.

    Hence his statement is official policy.

    Or do you think you know more about what Russian government does than Russian government itself?
    GunshipDemocracy
    GunshipDemocracy


    Posts : 5967
    Points : 5987
    Join date : 2015-05-17
    Location : fishin on Stalin´s Strait between Mexico and Canada

    [Official] Armata Discussion thread #4 - Page 34 Empty Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #4

    Post  GunshipDemocracy Thu Aug 16, 2018 6:49 pm

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:
    Nibiru wrote:They should have sticked with the Black Eagle MBT if they're just going to cancel Armata, at least BE is a level higher than the T-90 in the tech tree

    they aren't going to cancel the Armata but they will not produce it in large numbers. Maybe when their GDP gets better but for now they cannot afford to replace everything with that tank their main tank units will get them is all etc their elite groups.


    and that's correct of thinking to me. Why thousands of armatas if you dont have tanks that are better os in future significantly better? as you mentioned GDP gets better topic returns. Not bad idea is also use existign hulls to make drone army form thousands of T-72. For example for "saturation attack" againt NATO offensive.
    GunshipDemocracy
    GunshipDemocracy


    Posts : 5967
    Points : 5987
    Join date : 2015-05-17
    Location : fishin on Stalin´s Strait between Mexico and Canada

    [Official] Armata Discussion thread #4 - Page 34 Empty Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #4

    Post  GunshipDemocracy Thu Aug 16, 2018 6:52 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Production in high numbers was the whole point since it was not just about tank but whole family of vehicles. It was advertised as "unified platform".

    Now they are stuck with White Elephant the Land Version.

    Another failure. List grows ever longer...


    drama queen Razz

    .

    He is high ranking government official who went on record. He was not corrected, not reprimanded and not sacked.

    Hence his statement is official policy.

    Or do you think you know more about what Russian government does than Russian government itself?


    this was so far one representative. lets wait if thsi is not temporary trend, of testing waters. Perhaps also "invitation" to price negotiations .
    LMFS
    LMFS


    Posts : 5094
    Points : 5090
    Join date : 2018-03-03

    [Official] Armata Discussion thread #4 - Page 34 Empty Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #4

    Post  LMFS Thu Aug 16, 2018 6:57 pm

    Yawn... when did the official orders change?

    Until such thing happens, there is nothing but the customary vague and poorly translated comments from some guy without further context. Nothing.
    miketheterrible
    miketheterrible


    Posts : 7383
    Points : 7341
    Join date : 2016-11-06

    [Official] Armata Discussion thread #4 - Page 34 Empty Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #4

    Post  miketheterrible Thu Aug 16, 2018 6:58 pm

    He is deputy. Shoigu is defense minister. Borisov doesn't make final decision.

    And yes, obviously as Gunship said, opens way to negotiations.

    We are looking into things and talking about nothing. Cause it is nothing. Nothing proven or disproven. Let's wait till 2020 when the first 100 batch arrive.
    franco
    franco


    Posts : 6682
    Points : 6708
    Join date : 2010-08-18

    [Official] Armata Discussion thread #4 - Page 34 Empty Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #4

    Post  franco Thu Aug 16, 2018 9:41 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:He is deputy. Shoigu is defense minister. Borisov doesn't make final decision.

    And yes, obviously as Gunship said, opens way to negotiations.

    We are looking into things and talking about nothing. Cause it is nothing. Nothing proven or disproven. Let's wait till 2020 when the first 100 batch arrive.

    Borisov got a promotion and is no longer a deputy Defense Minister. He is now the deputy Prime Minister in charge of the Russian Military Industrial Complex replacing Rogozin. Rogozin took over the Russian Space Agency.
    GarryB
    GarryB


    Posts : 38765
    Points : 39261
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    [Official] Armata Discussion thread #4 - Page 34 Empty Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #4

    Post  GarryB Fri Aug 17, 2018 1:20 am

    Production in high numbers was the whole point since it was not just about tank but whole family of vehicles. It was advertised as "unified platform".

    Now they are stuck with White Elephant the Land Version.

    Another failure. List grows ever longer...

    You are confusing the Armata platform with the F-35... it was the F-35 that was going to be produced in enormous numbers to replace everything.

    The Armata family of vehicles is intended to operate in high intensity dangerous situations like urban combat against very well equipped enemies... the majority of forces they would operate would be using cheaper Kurganets and Boomerang vehicles.

    Each of the four military districts will have a certain number of armata divisions, but they will not be the majority of forces by any means.

    In the west where the road network is more extensive the cheaper wheeled Boomerangs will be common, while in places where there are few roads and lots of soft ground the Kurganets will predominate.

    The fact is that politicians are idiots and believe what they are told.

    For a long time... during the 1990s, they were told Russian armour is all crap, and they believed them because the equipment was poorly used.

    Current evidence is that with ERA actually fitted and being used by properly trained and motivated crews, and of course good ammo and decent optronics and other upgrades together with proper recon support even a T-72 is a good tank.

    As production reduces costs the armata will become an excellent vehicle family... it wont ever be cheap, but will be better than any western alternative for quite some time.


    He is high ranking government official who went on record. He was not corrected, not reprimanded and not sacked.

    Hence his statement is official policy.

    He is the customer... you don't interrupt the customer when they are negotiating a purchase... except in the west where they just sign the cheques and leave the amount blank because next week the price will double.

    Not bad idea is also use existign hulls to make drone army form thousands of T-72. For example for "saturation attack" againt NATO offensive.

    They would be fine against ISIS, but against the Israelis or the French or the Americans their might be problems with EW being a problem with robotic vehicles...

    Not something you want to bet your future on.

    drama queen

    I thought more flamebaiter, but you are not wrong....  Wink
    PapaDragon
    PapaDragon


    Posts : 13243
    Points : 13285
    Join date : 2015-04-26
    Location : Fort Evil, Serbia

    [Official] Armata Discussion thread #4 - Page 34 Empty Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #4

    Post  PapaDragon Fri Aug 17, 2018 2:05 am

    franco wrote:
    miketheterrible wrote:He is deputy. Shoigu is defense minister. Borisov doesn't make final decision.

    And yes, obviously as Gunship said, opens way to negotiations.

    We are looking into things and talking about nothing. Cause it is nothing. Nothing proven or disproven. Let's wait till 2020 when the first 100 batch arrive.

    Borisov got a promotion and is no longer a deputy Defense Minister. He is now the deputy Prime Minister in charge of the Russian Military Industrial Complex replacing Rogozin. Rogozin took over the Russian Space Agency.

    The man here said it all.

    I rest my case.
    avatar
    walle83


    Posts : 967
    Points : 975
    Join date : 2016-11-13
    Location : Sweden

    [Official] Armata Discussion thread #4 - Page 34 Empty Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #4

    Post  walle83 Fri Aug 17, 2018 2:29 am

    The economic pressure is starting to show. First the Su-57 now the Armata. More projects will follow.

    GunshipDemocracy
    GunshipDemocracy


    Posts : 5967
    Points : 5987
    Join date : 2015-05-17
    Location : fishin on Stalin´s Strait between Mexico and Canada

    [Official] Armata Discussion thread #4 - Page 34 Empty Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #4

    Post  GunshipDemocracy Fri Aug 17, 2018 3:15 am

    walle83 wrote:The economic pressure is starting to show. First the Su-57 now the Armata. More projects will follow.


    so you didnt understand what was written?





    GarryB wrote:
    Not bad idea is also use existing hulls to make drone army form thousands of T-72. For example for "saturation attack" againt NATO offensive.

    They would be fine against ISIS, but against the Israelis or the French or the Americans their might be problems with EW being a problem with robotic vehicles...

    Not something you want to bet your future on.

    Then Armata and its unmanned version is also doomed (same as Israeli or US unmanned systems). Besides robotized T-72 or bmp programe is already considered by MoD. So I guess its nto that bad.

    BTW ISIS is not so primitive after all since best Israeli and US drone specialists working for them in Ildib. lol1 lol1 lol1




    GarryB wrote:
    drama queen

    I thought more flamebaiter, but you are not wrong....  Wink

    I appreciate this I knwo how much do you hate admit I am right (again Razz)
    Big_Gazza
    Big_Gazza


    Posts : 4595
    Points : 4587
    Join date : 2014-08-25
    Location : Melbourne, Australia

    [Official] Armata Discussion thread #4 - Page 34 Empty Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #4

    Post  Big_Gazza Fri Aug 17, 2018 4:45 am

    walle83 wrote:The economic pressure is starting to show. First the Su-57 now the Armata. More projects will follow.


    What?  In both cases, gov officials state that initial orders will be small while they are tested and evaluated against cheaper, simpler options (which will inevitably be procured in any case to boost numbers).

    Yeah sure, we expect HATO-fondling soy-bois to leap onto anything that vaguely resembles a hiccup in Russian military defense programs, but this?  Get serious or go home, or better yet, go check if your Volvo has been torched by a refugee gang...
    SeigSoloyvov
    SeigSoloyvov


    Posts : 3692
    Points : 3672
    Join date : 2016-04-08

    [Official] Armata Discussion thread #4 - Page 34 Empty Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #4

    Post  SeigSoloyvov Fri Aug 17, 2018 6:24 am

    PapaDragon wrote:
    franco wrote:
    miketheterrible wrote:He is deputy. Shoigu is defense minister. Borisov doesn't make final decision.

    And yes, obviously as Gunship said, opens way to negotiations.

    We are looking into things and talking about nothing. Cause it is nothing. Nothing proven or disproven. Let's wait till 2020 when the first 100 batch arrive.

    Borisov got a promotion and is no longer a deputy Defense Minister. He is now the deputy Prime Minister in charge of the Russian Military Industrial Complex replacing Rogozin. Rogozin took over the Russian Space Agency.

    The man here said it all.

    I rest my case.

    Franco would be wrong here.

    Indeed Borisov got that promotion however he doesn't have the power to cancel projects like that.

    Mainly one politically motivated like the Armata is, He would need to go to higher heads to do such a thing.

    The structure of the MoD for Russia doesn't work like that.

    In the end many men like him make claims like this and nothing happens to them he is simply too important they cannot touch him over a minor remark like that is all, in fact, some like to say things far worse.

    The only three people who I'd consider legit words for canning the project are Gerasimov ,Putin and Shoigu
    miketheterrible
    miketheterrible


    Posts : 7383
    Points : 7341
    Join date : 2016-11-06

    [Official] Armata Discussion thread #4 - Page 34 Empty Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #4

    Post  miketheterrible Fri Aug 17, 2018 6:26 am

    walle83 wrote:The economic pressure is starting to show. First the Su-57 now the Armata. More projects will follow.


    It is? Is that why Russia has monthly budget surplus of $5B and GDP growth?

    You are aware that budget was stipulated back in April, right? And that there would have been news of budget being slashed, right?

    Some of you people are hopeless.

    franco wrote:
    miketheterrible wrote:He is deputy. Shoigu is defense minister. Borisov doesn't make final decision.

    And yes, obviously as Gunship said, opens way to negotiations.

    We are looking into things and talking about nothing. Cause it is nothing. Nothing proven or disproven. Let's wait till 2020 when the first 100 batch arrive.

    Borisov got a promotion and is no longer a deputy Defense Minister. He is now the deputy Prime Minister in charge of the Russian Military Industrial Complex replacing Rogozin. Rogozin took over the Russian Space Agency.

    And? He doesn't make the orders.
    franco
    franco


    Posts : 6682
    Points : 6708
    Join date : 2010-08-18

    [Official] Armata Discussion thread #4 - Page 34 Empty Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #4

    Post  franco Fri Aug 17, 2018 9:15 am

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:
    franco wrote:
    miketheterrible wrote:He is deputy. Shoigu is defense minister. Borisov doesn't make final decision.

    And yes, obviously as Gunship said, opens way to negotiations.

    We are looking into things and talking about nothing. Cause it is nothing. Nothing proven or disproven. Let's wait till 2020 when the first 100 batch arrive.

    Borisov got a promotion and is no longer a deputy Defense Minister. He is now the deputy Prime Minister in charge of the Russian Military Industrial Complex replacing Rogozin. Rogozin took over the Russian Space Agency.

    The man here said it all.

    I rest my case.

    Franco would be wrong here.

    Indeed Borisov got that promotion however he doesn't have the power to cancel projects like that.

    Mainly one politically motivated like the Armata is, He would need to go to higher heads to do such a thing.

    The structure of the MoD for Russia doesn't work like that.

    In the end many men like him make claims like this and nothing happens to them he is simply too important they cannot touch him over a minor remark like that is all, in fact, some like to say things far worse.

    The only three people who I'd consider legit words for canning the project are Gerasimov ,Putin and Shoigu

    1. My point here was that Borisov was no longer Shoigu's deputy. Nothing more.
    2. My take on his comment is not that Armata or the other projects are cancelled, but that their acquisition priority has been reduced.
    3. I agree pretty much with the rest of your comments. Sometimes some of the players may speak their personal opinions, sometimes for political reasons or sometimes just to deflect or confuse the issue. However until there is an official MOD or government announcement, it's just talk.
    miketheterrible
    miketheterrible


    Posts : 7383
    Points : 7341
    Join date : 2016-11-06

    [Official] Armata Discussion thread #4 - Page 34 Empty Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #4

    Post  miketheterrible Fri Aug 17, 2018 8:49 pm

    http://anna-news.info/poyavilis-fotografii-novoj-versii-tyazhyoloj-bmp-na-platforme-armata/

    There were pictures new version of the heavy IFV in the Armata platform

    [Official] Armata Discussion thread #4 - Page 34 0fh1tpo
    [Official] Armata Discussion thread #4 - Page 34 NuCPdYy
    [Official] Armata Discussion thread #4 - Page 34 K9yVJn3

    There were pictures new version of heavy infantry fighting vehicles on a promising platform Armata, which will be presented at the International military-technical forum "ARMY-2018".

    It is reported that the new version armored vehicles will be armed with the combat module with 57mm automatic cannon and two launchers of supersonic ATGM "Ataka".

    This module is very similar to the module that is mounted on a ZSU "Derivation-defense", but with differences in the overall geometry of the hull structure as well as the extra weapons.

    Despite the power weapons due to the installation of more powerful guns, with more power of high-explosive and armor-piercing shells, and shells with radio detonators, the firing capabilities of this heavy IFV limited amount of ammunition ammunition (65-80 shells).

    Recall that for the first time TBMP T-15 "Barberry" was shown at the Victory Parade in Moscow in 2015. Then she bore the brunt of the combat module with automatic 30mm cannon 2А42М and launchers ATGM “Kornet”.
    PapaDragon
    PapaDragon


    Posts : 13243
    Points : 13285
    Join date : 2015-04-26
    Location : Fort Evil, Serbia

    [Official] Armata Discussion thread #4 - Page 34 Empty Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #4

    Post  PapaDragon Fri Aug 17, 2018 9:02 pm


    ^^^ This ain't Kurganets (or Boomerang)

    Sponsored content


    [Official] Armata Discussion thread #4 - Page 34 Empty Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #4

    Post  Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Thu Mar 28, 2024 4:45 pm