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    [Official] Armata Discussion thread #1

    Morpheus Eberhardt
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    Post  Morpheus Eberhardt Sun Jun 16, 2013 2:49 am

    Irrespective of the maximum rate of fire of the main gun of any given tank, in the virtual world, there is so much misconception about the issue of tank autoloaders that, if you want to address these misconceptions, you have to write a few elementary books on the subject.

    The book abstracts would possibly be something along these lines:

    "The rational for incorporating an autoloader in a tank is not to achieve a high rate of fire. A tank is not an artillery piece.

    "In artillery design the rate of fire is extremely important. The reason for the extreme importance of the rate of fire in artillery is manifested by the following example: the first projectile that leaves the muzzle of an artillery piece is massively more effective than the projectile leaving it, let's say, 5 minutes later during an artillery preparation. That is why there are designs like 2S35 "Koalitsiya-SV" with two barrels.

    "The rational/rationals for incorporating an autoloader in a tank is/are totally different than that/those for an artillery piece. The main reason for an autoloader in a T-72 is to increase the armor protection of the tank, and it is not there to increase the rate of fire of its main gun (again, irrespective of the actual maximum rate of fire its main gun has)."
    Zivo
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    Post  Zivo Sun Jun 16, 2013 10:02 am

    The M1 can achieve a theoretical maximum fire rate of 12 rounds per minute. However, there are many factors that effect this.

    In this video, the M1 appears to be in a stable position during the loading procedure. From firing, loading, to the breech being closed takes an average of 5 seconds. ROF: 12 rounds per minute.



    Now, lets take a look at a more realistic combat scenario, loading while maneuvering on rough terrain. As demonstrated by this Leo 2 loader.



    8 Seconds from shot, to closing the breech. The rough terrain added 3 seconds. ROF: 7.5 rounds per minute.

    Now lets look at the T-90's autoloader doing the same task.



    The T-90 on rough terrain from shot to shot was 6 seconds average. ROF: 10 rounds per minute.


    While maneuvering, which is what tanks are optimized to do in combat, the "slow, arm-eating"" autoloader edges out the manual loader in fire rate. Autoloaders do not fatigue, do not fumble, and do not make mistakes.
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Sun Jun 16, 2013 12:31 pm

    I've read western tanks have an average ROF(not burst) of at least 8 rpm. Detractors of Russian tanks say that any autoloaders that aren't of the type the Leclerc or M8 AGS use are pointless because they don't give a any ROF advantage over manually loaded tanks.

    Hahaha... autoloaders that are not the same as the ones we use are all inferior... in the early 1960s when it became clear that the T-62 was going into service with a smoothbore 115mm main gun western "experts" said smoothbore guns were useless and inaccurate and a total waste of time. Now of course all western MBTs have or are going to be upgraded with smoothbore 120mm guns.

    There are advantages and disadvantages to every choice in the design of something... smoothbore guns are cheaper and lighter to make, are easier to clean, and create less resistance to the projectile as it travels down the barrel so for the same barrel length and propellent charge and same calibre you get a higher velocity at the muzzle.

    More importantly the primary anti armour rounds fired by modern tanks don't like being spun at a high rate to stabilise them... HEAT rounds and APFSDS don't like rifled barrels because like a spear or a dart a long thin rod of APFSDS material can't be spun fast enough to stabilise it properly so fins are used. With HEAT rounds spinning them very rapidly in flight creates a centrifugal force that spreads out the plasma torch they generate on detonation... spreading it reduces its impact and reduces the penetration.
    The main rounds that like being spun for stabilisation are HESH which is useless against layered armour structures and standard full bore HE which of course being an area munition doesn't need high precision accuracy anyway.

    Once the west realised all these benefits the moderate reduction in very long range accuracy was accepted and with new barrel construction technology and of course a good ballistics computer its accuracy is good enough, yet it retains advantages in other areas.

    When NATO moves to 140mm ammo then it will be amusing because ammo that size will either be a very heavy and long one piece or two still quite heavy pieces... which likely means autoloader for NATO... of course by then autoloaders will be safe and reliable and fast... Rolling Eyes

    I've read on many western military forums  that say that the T-72Bs autoloader's minimal ROF is 4 rpm while the earlier and export models offer 3 rpm. Is this statistic only valid if the autoloader isn't maintained properly?

    The minimum rate of fire is if the ammo is located at opposite ends of the autoloader... the same problem could occur in a western tank if the ammo required is located next to the driver in a hull position...

    Autoloaders do not fatigue, do not fumble, and do not make mistakes.

    Nor can they get drunk or sprain a wrist. Of course they also can't man a machine gun, and they certainly can't take a share of guard duty, but the structure of the Soviet Divisions allow for a mechanic to be part of the crew for guard duty and to help with maintainence/loading etc.

    The west didn't have them when the T-64 entered service and because the T-64 was the secret high tech tank it was easy to speculate as to why it wasn't exported... remember the Soviets didn't have anything that was high tech that was not copied from western designs so the T-64 not exported means it was rubbish, so clearly the autoloader ate arms for breakfast... which is odd because all the tank crew at exercises and parades seemed to have both arms... the T-64 was rapidly followed into service by the T-72 so again this was taken as evidence that the T-64 was rubbish. Again wrong.
    KomissarBojanchev
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    Post  KomissarBojanchev Wed Jun 19, 2013 7:51 pm

    If the armata is to have a 125mm cannon, is it safe to assume  that it will have a length of more than 50 calibers? I think its prime time the Russian tanks mount a gun as big as the 120/55 monster that the Leopard 2A6 uses.
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Thu Jun 20, 2013 2:25 am

    The 125mm gun is already a larger calibre, but the length and size of the gun as well as other parameters like shell weight and propellent weight and projectile length and thickness and the materials it is made from are not related to how big western weapons/guns/rounds are... it all comes down to the armour they have to be able to penetrate at what distance.

    And BTW a 125/L53 is a longer barrel gun than a 120/L55... a 125mm x 53 calibres = 125 x 53 = 6.625m in barrel length. 120 x 55 = 6.6m.

    A 50 calibre 152mm gun would be 7.6m long.

    I rather suspect more exotic propellants and electro magnetic assistance will be more useful to increasing muzzle velocity than simply making the barrel longer.
    Zivo
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    Post  Zivo Sun Jul 07, 2013 9:34 pm

    Khlopotov is still going on about Armata...

    "Forget about the "Armata" - it will not be in the Russian Army, this is a dead project and the money pumped out of our pockets with you on offshore accounts heads of state corporations."

    Lets hope he's is wrong about this.
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    Post  xeno Sun Jul 07, 2013 10:38 pm

    We needn't come to a conclusion at present.
    Sometimes Russian people can be very pessimistic, due to the climate I believe.
    Just be patient.
    Viktor
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    Post  Viktor Mon Jul 08, 2013 8:47 pm

    Only for chosen ones Very Happy 

    Newest Tank "Armata" will show the leadership of the country for the first time in September
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    Post  xeno Mon Jul 08, 2013 9:34 pm

    http://ria.ru/defense_safety/20130708/948418096.html
    Yes, Armata will be shown at an exhibition in Nizhny Tagil in September this year to Russian high officials(Putin).
    And scale of exhibition in Nizhny Tagil this year will surpass all previous ones.
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    Post  Austin Tue Jul 09, 2013 8:05 am

    Viktor wrote:Only for chosen ones Very Happy 

    Newest Tank "Armata" will show the leadership of the country for the first time in September

    Wonder if one can sneak inside with some spy cam or something to get some initial but grainy pictures.

    I remember they did the same with S-37 Berkut in mid-90's and then they immediately disclosed it publicly too.
    Viktor
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    Post  Viktor Tue Jul 09, 2013 10:54 am

    Austin wrote:
    Viktor wrote:Only for chosen ones Very Happy 

    Newest Tank "Armata" will show the leadership of the country for the first time in September

    Wonder if one can sneak inside with some spy cam or something to get some initial but grainy pictures.

    I remember they did the same with S-37 Berkut in mid-90's and then they immediately disclosed it publicly too.

    Well perhaps we (forum members here) should draw a straw to pick a member who will sacrifice his life not for the benefit of 72 virgins but pictures of Armata based

    tank Laughing Laughing Laughing 

    "Armata" will be shown for the first time on 25-28 September 2013
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Tue Jul 09, 2013 12:21 pm

    I guess it is too late for me to run for office and get elected so I can go...cry 
    TR1
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    Post  TR1 Tue Jul 09, 2013 9:26 pm

    GarryB wrote:I guess it is too late for me to run for office and get elected so I can go...cry 

    No need to get elected, just tell Putin you are NZ's most stalwart defender of Russia online, he will take you with him Wink
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    Post  Austin Wed Jul 10, 2013 6:33 am

    ^^ attack russia 
    Deep Throat
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    [Official] Armata Discussion thread #1 - Page 12 Empty Yes, Armata will be shown at an exhibition in Nizhny Tagil in September this year to Russian high officials(Putin).

    Post  Deep Throat Wed Jul 10, 2013 11:08 am

    GarryB wrote:I guess it is too late for me to run for office and get elected so I can go...cry 

    You should try for this

    http://rt.com/politics/russia-army-programmers-draft-656/
    collegeboy16
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    Post  collegeboy16 Tue Jul 16, 2013 1:56 am

    The T-90A is like 48 tons and it has a turret (about 15 tons), my question is
    what makes armata mbt heavier(55 t -official or spec.?)?
    Also will it continue using simple he shells or will it go the amp way?(programmable
    Fuse with added pen. power against light armor.)
    Also, thermobaric ammo, i think it would be great against soft targets and since the tank has
    An unmanned turret(no crew so you can use radical fire extinguishing techniques and youcan pump air out, fires wont be that Much of a problem
    TR1
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    Post  TR1 Tue Jul 16, 2013 2:09 am

    T-90A already uses a much more advanced HE fusing system than its contemporaries.
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    Post  GarryB Tue Jul 16, 2013 12:51 pm

    The heavy armour can be removed from the turret front because there is no crew to be protected.

    The armour on the turret requires less volume as there is no crew positions in there so the armour can be moderately thick but heavily angled to do a good job of protecting things in the turret, though all ammo will be stored below the turret ring.

    Most of the added weight will be from the heavily sloped and very heavy frontal armour array protecting the crew from 360 degrees.

    Note that does not mean the rear armour around the crew will be the same thickness as the forward frontal protection, but the cumulative protection of the volume of space from the rear armour, the tank engine, the turret area and the rear bulkhead of the crew compartment would offer very good protection for all the crew from penetration.
    Viktor
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    Post  Viktor Fri Jul 26, 2013 2:03 am

    Nice text about Armata

    Fuss about the "Almaty"


    As is known, in 2015 to be completed testing of a new generation of wheeled and tracked unified platform for armored fighting vehicles the Army in three weight categories: light, medium and heavy. Around the heavy platform "Armata" led to the tank being developed in Nizhny Tagil, recently started this junk vanity.
    Of course, anyone interested in armored vehicles, I wonder how all this will look breakthrough machine. Over the last couple of years have been quite a lot of different assumptions, speculations, hints of responsible persons, as well as metered "sinks" on the subject. Including the "light" of the Internet and a number of models of cars on the basis of the above platforms.

    Show will be, but closed
    Many expected that the already finished or close to the exit at the pre-production test tank "Armata" BTR "Boomerang" and BMP "Kurganets-25" this year will be shown at an exhibition in Nizhny Tagil. They are really present, but the show will be closed - for the top military and political leadership of the country, without the press. This is due to the procedure to ensure secrecy - before bringing armored vehicles on state tests of the neck with his take on the appearance of the existing situation is impossible. And no matter how the public would "at least a glimpse" - to break the law no one will.

    The fact that several samples of each platform are preparing for the show, confirmed officially. Several because on the same platform, "Armata" developed not only a tank, but heavy infantry fighting vehicles (TBMP) and other machines. We also know that the front "box" of new tanks, infantry fighting vehicles, armored personnel carriers to take part in the anniversary parade on Red Square in 2015. However, the final decision has not been approved. So if the machine "does not light up" to it, then a maximum of two years to see their audience.
    What do we know about the "Armata"?

    According to the authoritative edition of Jane's, in fact tank "Armata" Object code is 148. The layout of "Almaty was" revolutionary and has not been used even once in the series tanks. It is identical to the layout of its predecessor - the tank Object 195. A powerful armor protection forehead, behind her - well protected bronekapsuly with the crew on an automated combat compartment with an uninhabited tower on top, then the engine compartment.
    The weapon of the tank is a 125-mm gun 2A82 high-power, in its energy and other performance significantly superior to any Western 120-mm gun, including an elongated gun "Rheinmetall". The gun is placed on the so-called master stream and the scheme is high enough. Its capacity is sufficient to defeat any prospective tank. For this instrument has been developed and tested high-power ammunition: armor-piercing, guided missiles, cumulative and others. Ammunition of the tank separated from the crew capsule and can not harm him in the detonation.

    Form of the frontal part of the body is inherited from Obekta195. But the multi-layer composite armor protection based on new bronestalyah electro-slag remelting of high resistance, new materials and structures filler and provide protection from current and future weapons. The tank is equipped with a new explosive reactive armor and a set of active defense "Afghanis."

    "Armata" weighs more than 50 tons. Tank itself, according to some reports, has 6 pairs of rollers as the T-90 or T-80, on the other - on their 7 as an object 195. Rollers are taken from the tank T-80, and not on the T-72 (T-90). It is unusual for Tagil machines. The fact that this tank Chassis considered the most successful and rollers easier than that on the T-90. Equipped with a "Armata" X-shaped diesel engine Chelyabinsk-85 A-3. It has a switching mode power limit from 1200 to HP 1500-1600

    Tank Information Management System (TIUS) and fire control system (FCS) "Almaty was" expected to be the best in the world. The automation level of the tank is such that management will be carried out with a handy remote displays.
    Criticism or informataka?

    Recently, some media, as well as the various "okolotankovyh" Internet sites on the tank "Armata" started this informataka. Some experts have lashed out at the leadership and UKBTM Uralvagonzavod. It is, they say, instead of the real tank to justify the cost is going to bring the country's leadership fraud: chassis layout based on the body of T-90 with the layout of the new bashni.A tank itself will supposedly be ready very soon.

    But the main complaint - "Armata" is not needed. Instead, it is better to upgrade the correct T-72 and buy new T-90AM. This point of view is convenient in the industry who do not want to "fool" with a revolutionary, sophisticated new machine. It is easier to take the path of extensive development.

    Simultaneously, various experts and analysts have begun to voice complaints about the main highlight of the machine - its layout. Reinforced on all sides and covered with a strong frontal armor crew capsule "poorly protected from the sides and roof." Yes, it is so crowded that not only is it impossible to carry out combat missions without leaving the machine for a couple of days, as required, but in general will need to recruit a crew of "dwarf-Kirghiz."

    Especially the atrocities some Ukrainian "comrades" who specialize in overtones of Russian and Soviet tank production. Of course, except for its part of Kharkov. Why, though, these "volunteers" Ukrainian tank building to decry our tankoprom - is unclear. Kharkovites good to pass Thai customers late in the year collected almost by hand first five tanks "BM Hold." In short, to compete with projects such as the "Armata", they are not able to.
    A dog barks - the caravan moves

    All of these attacks and the gloomy predictions should be treated with the serenity of a camel, barking dogs of the caravan oasis already passed. Exactly the same hype and was the premiere fighter T-50 PAKFA. Various insiders have generously shared their descriptions and even drawings of the machine, which, as it turned out, were related at best to the early operating time. Another thing is that such a situation will continue to persist if the official information on such important projects will still be dispensed beyond measure.


    LINK
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    Post  gaurav Sat Jul 27, 2013 10:51 am

    Fuss about the "Almaty"

    Vow Vow..! russia 


    Amazing man.. this has afghan armour..?? what is that..

    Electric PLASMA armour for melting incoming Kinetic energy, rounds ..what is this..Rolling Eyes 
    Never heard of that..Twisted Evil 

    But leaking information is not good. Eh ehe...

    Overall the conclusion is whether this high tech armour is also suited for 25 ton and 30 ton Kurganets vehicles,
    25 ton Boomerang vehicles ..
    Do this medium weight vehicles also carry this Electric shield armour.. ?
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    Post  GarryB Sat Jul 27, 2013 12:35 pm

    Amazing man.. this has afghan armour..?? what is that..

    The name of the new APS is "Afghanistan".

    In other words it is a replacement for Drozd II and ARENA.

    Electric PLASMA armour for melting incoming Kinetic energy, rounds ..what is this..Rolling Eyes
    Never heard of that..

    new bronestalyah electro-slag remelting of high resistance

    Electroslag remelting is a method of creating very hard metal... normally used in gun barrels to make them stronger and able to handle higher pressures and higher velocities... in armour I suspect it make them harder to perhaps shatter incoming penetrators.

    Do this medium weight vehicles also carry this Electric shield armour.. ?

    I would suspect it does use hardened steel armour...
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    Post  gaurav Sat Jul 27, 2013 3:32 pm

    I thought this was some kind of high current device. Sad 


    Electroslag remelting is a method of creating very hard metal... normallyowne
    used in gun barrels to make them stronger and able to handle higher pressures and higher velocities...

    IF this is a method of creating new metal then it is another thing.
    New metals/materials are developed in many civil/mil applications.
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    Post  GarryB Sun Jul 28, 2013 10:15 am

    It doesn't create new metals, it makes existing metal alloys stronger and harder so for instance in a barrel you can fire 2,000 high velocity rounds instead of 300 before you have to change it.

    For armour I suspect it might make some enemy armour penetrators shatter instead of penetrate so it might stop some rounds that on paper should be able to penetrate the armour.
    gaurav
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    Post  gaurav Sun Jul 28, 2013 11:10 am


    it makes existing metal alloys stronger and harder so for instance in a barrel you can fire 2,000 high velocity rounds instead of 300 before you have to change it.
    YAAH I stand corrected.
    That is robustness or reliability of Tank Gun barrels in sustained(long endurance) combat operation .

    I am not a specialist in new metals and hardened metals. I guess senior members  like
    Victor, Mindstorm, Austin,TR1 etc etc can provide their research inputs on the brand new information about "Armata" .(given by Victor)  thumbsup 

    They are the ideal candidates for giving more information regarding Armata. Very Happy

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    Post  GarryB Sun Jul 28, 2013 11:33 am

    Nobody is an expert when it comes to armata... we can listen to what they say but they are not obliged to reveal anything, so we cannot really know for sure anything about it.

    Sometimes it is a question from someone who does not know much about the subject that makes me think and realise certain things I had not even thought of before... so all input is welcome and of value.

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