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    Russian military intervention and aid to Syria #10

    VladimirSahin
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    Post  VladimirSahin on Sat Nov 05, 2016 4:58 pm

    KoTeMoRe wrote:
    VladimirSahin wrote:Guys I mean the team on the ground had balls, however it is beyond me how no one noticed that there are enemies in the perimeter, the CSAR landing right next to it could have been totally f*cked up... Then you would have two choppers next to each other, and this time with dead Russians. The next step would have been to hunt those bastards down as revenge. Glad no Russians died, hopefully the RuAF launched one of those revenge operations on the nearest terrorist positions.

    At 2 km the guys launching that ATGM are non distinguishable for the human eye. That's all. CSAR was in area for a while, they checked up with the pilots/WO then stood put if there was any sensitive piece of equipment that needed to be bolted out and taken away. Ground op was looking for that effect. Then they got hit by ATGM.

    Not exactly new for a hot LZ. People who say this shouldn't have happened, are correct in the sense that once the pilots were taken they should have lifted off. Well someone took the decision to see what could be saved. I doubt this was some captain embedded.

    Trying to mindlessly hunt some guys that will get hit later on by an OFAB is the worst recipe for disaster. A war isn't some game, losses happen and material losses are part of the game.

    On a second lecture you don't know what the ATGM team was looking at. The 9SH119 sight is a x10 power optic this means that they were looking at the mil like it was on naked eye at 200/250m. Basically they picked up the bigger prize, happens the prize was empty and probably going to be destroyed all the same.

    I can agree with that, but there's a way easier way and way less risky way of destroying the helicopter. (SU-24 dropping 4 OFABs on it) maybe they were trying to determine if it would be able to lift? BTW where was this chopper downed?
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    Post  VladimirSahin on Sat Nov 05, 2016 5:01 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    however it is beyond me how no one noticed that there are enemies in the perimeter, the CSAR landing right next to it could have been totally f*cked up...

    To make it safer in the future it is necessary not only to improve the tactics of the opteration, also it is necessary to change the nature of the rescue team.

    With a range of 3km minimum that is a circle 6km around you need to check for enemies that are rather unlikely to be standing out in the open with ISIS flags...

    With a better missile like Kornet-E that is a 12km circle and Kornet-EM that is a 20km circle...

    ...and they might not be set up with ATGMs it might simply be a GRAD truck positioned 20km away lined up on the general area ready to launch a volley... do you have to scan the area in a 40km wide circle before sending in helos to rescue?

    There is no safe range... a Smerch battery 70km away could be given the coordinates of the crash site and launch a volley of rockets with HE frag submunitions...

    The key is speed... in and out as fast as you can... a Tu-22M3 with 9 tons of bombs ready to drop on any area that threats might be concealed is also a good thing too.

    I guess but again it would have been safer to evac and get a plane to destroy it. The worse outcome didn't happen, infact the best case happened. We were looking at about 5 plus KIAs, 2 choppers wrecked if they weren't so lucky.
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    Post  JohninMK on Sat Nov 05, 2016 6:43 pm

    VladimirSahin wrote: BTW where was this chopper downed?
    Initial reports said NW of Palmyra
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    Post  eehnie on Sat Nov 05, 2016 7:54 pm


    Taking into account that the Mi-35 (Mi-24) destroyed was hit firts in the air by something, it is clear that nothing flying in manpads range was safe in this area. Also the MI-35 destroyed was also at least visually controlled since the before first hit. then neither high speed was enough to make a safe rescue. With the vehicles available the rescue was done successfully with good luck and the minimum loses for Russia. But it was very risky by the nature of the situation.
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    Post  VladimirSahin on Sat Nov 05, 2016 8:31 pm

    JohninMK wrote:
    VladimirSahin wrote: BTW where was this chopper downed?
    Initial reports said NW of Palmyra

    That's weird, MI-35s are equipped with good ECM and flares... In theory none of the legacy manpads should be able to hit it. I'm thinking maybe there was a malfunction? Because there was a lack of smoke or damage before the ATGM destroyed it. So the loss of choppers (including crashes) is 1 MI-28N, 2 MI-8s, 2 MI-24s. When's that carrier arriving? we need some planes to f*** sh** up.
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    Post  franco on Sat Nov 05, 2016 9:29 pm

    VladimirSahin wrote:
    JohninMK wrote:
    VladimirSahin wrote: BTW where was this chopper downed?
    Initial reports said NW of Palmyra

    That's weird, MI-35s are equipped with good ECM and flares... In theory none of the legacy manpads should be able to hit it. I'm thinking maybe there was a malfunction? Because there was a lack of smoke or damage before the ATGM destroyed it. So the loss of choppers (including crashes) is 1 MI-28N, 2 MI-8s, 2 MI-24s. When's that carrier arriving? we need some planes to f*** sh** up.


    It was reported as having to sat down due to technical problems.
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    Post  OminousSpudd on Sat Nov 05, 2016 9:31 pm

    VladimirSahin wrote:
    JohninMK wrote:
    VladimirSahin wrote: BTW where was this chopper downed?
    Initial reports said NW of Palmyra

    That's weird, MI-35s are equipped with good ECM and flares... In theory none of the legacy manpads should be able to hit it. I'm thinking maybe there was a malfunction? Because there was a lack of smoke or damage before the ATGM destroyed it. So the loss of choppers (including crashes) is 1 MI-28N, 2 MI-8s, 2 MI-24s. When's that carrier arriving? we need some planes to f*** sh** up.
    Er, AAA and AA from HMGs. Simple...

    And there is no be all end all for countering IR seekers, you can take measures with the best equipment available, but there will always be a chance. AH-1W in Turkey recently is a good example, even though equipped with MAWS, the range was simply too close.
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    Post  PapaDragon on Sat Nov 05, 2016 10:34 pm

    VladimirSahin wrote:
    JohninMK wrote:
    VladimirSahin wrote: BTW where was this chopper downed?
    Initial reports said NW of Palmyra

    That's weird, MI-35s are equipped with good ECM and flares... In theory none of the legacy manpads should be able to hit it. I'm thinking maybe there was a malfunction? Because there was a lack of smoke or damage before the ATGM destroyed it. So the loss of choppers (including crashes) is 1 MI-28N, 2 MI-8s, 2 MI-24s. When's that carrier arriving? we need some planes to f*** sh** up.

    Like Franco said, technical problem.

    And it is unlikely that crew would waste time trying to start it up again had it suffered combat damage, they would be evacuating.

    Helo malfunctioned, crew landed it and tried to fix it, assistance arrived but beardies snuck up and opened fire so everyone hightailed out of there.

    Jihadi Julian complained about VKS bombing his buddies in retaliation for incident soon afterwards.
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    Post  Vann7 on Sun Nov 06, 2016 2:51 am

    I'm really interested to see how that Hermes missiles works in real life action.
    A High supersonic ~ mach 4 ,close to hyper sonic anti tank missile  with 30km or even up to 100km as some early data suggest ,is not something you see every day . The speed alone
    should give some kind of trouble to the targeted tank in intercepting it. Even if it is intercepted by
    ACtive defenses like Trophy or others ,it could damage the tank sensors and radars by exploding to close to the tank.

    The Ka-52 could be interesting too ,to see in combat action.  Smile

    What is really interesting ,the benefits it could bring to the table in wars..
    Is that thanks to its long range and speed ,Radio and lazer final guidance ,
    The Missile could be stored for example in warships in the coast of Syria
    and a special force operator could ask for support ,to bomb at their Lazer target
    right in the frontline. So the missile will fly up to 30km above special forces positions,
    and activate just 100 meters before it impact the target. The warship launch the missile guiding it by Radio ,the first 20km and the last 10km guided by lazer by the Russian soldier in the front line observing terrorist positions.  What is cool about this is that Russian warship from the coast line equipped with Hermes could offer something like "Close Air Support" from far distances to their military fighting in the ground. This is Much much better than Firing Anti tank missiles from Attack Hellicopters because they are not exposed to enemy fire ,and visibility issues , while a
    Russia special force could hide in the bushes with a lazer designator , lets say 20 recon soldiers with 20 lazer target designators. And the warships launch 10 to 20 Hermes missiles near at the same time from different angles. and literary blow up dozens of tanks of enemy positions in a surprise attack with deadly precision . IS much better than artillery fighting ,in terms of surprise aspect , since the noise will not warn the terrorist of an incoming attack and is the case of artillery being used or combat jets engines.  SO Russian warships could deploy in any coast and literary store thousands of Hermes missiles and use them to snipe terrorist formations non stop and will not need to refuel or resupply like is the case of planes of helicopters or drones that is very limited the weapons it can carry.

    All said ,the Hermes missile ,if launched from warships to land ,it could be a really
    game changing weapon. It will be even more precise than Russia modern Cruise missiles used
    in Syria since hermes use lazer guidance and Russia will be able to store 10x to 20x more hermes ,per every kalibr cruise missile warships can carry.  So a corvet from the caspian sea that carry 30 cruise missiles ,should have no problem to carry 300 to 400 hermes missiles . and thats a LOT of fire power to target infantry and tanks ,and for 100x times lower cost. Imagine how many hermes missiles a Kirov class can carry ? IT should be in the 3,000 to 4,000 . And allow any Russian army to snipe enemies ,groups formations ,tanks formations with Hermes and with deadly precision .

    Russian military intervention and aid to Syria #10 - Page 22 Dsc00811

    The addition of hermes to Russian army looks very game changing in terms of Cost/Performance. Is not practical to use cruise missiles of 1 million dollars ,to kill 2-5 terrorist.
    But with Hermes it can be. And Artillery is not as mobile as soldiers on foot ,that could climb a mountain and rain Hermes missiles day and night on terrorist positions , and they can even enter from any direction ,to hide the positions of the Russian soldiers. Something you cant do
    if use a Kornet ,that reveal your position when fire it. Wink
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    Post  storm333 on Sun Nov 06, 2016 4:00 am

    Something resembling SpN operators, my guess, Palmyra. Typical deployment of 30 soldiers in a units. Good hunting!
    calm
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    Post  calm on Sun Nov 06, 2016 8:02 pm

    ^
    Already posted, months ago.
    Russian #Mi28 and #Mi35 attack #IS militants, #Homs, #Syria
    Russian military intervention and aid to Syria #10 - Page 22 CwmRcUNW8AArQUM
    Russian military intervention and aid to Syria #10 - Page 22 CwmRc7uW8AAKzmL
    Russian military intervention and aid to Syria #10 - Page 22 CwmRdzTWIAAuXV4
    eehnie
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    Post  eehnie on Mon Nov 07, 2016 1:46 am

    In my opinion it is likely to see this kind of operations with helicopters, and even with Su-25, transfered to the Syrian Air Forces in the future. I do not think Russia will continue exposing permanently by this way the lives of their soldiers in Syria.

    In the other side Syria has still some own forces to afford the job with some help (material for replacement of loses and enough ammunition, which is not cheap). According to World Air Forces 2016 (data at the begin of the year) minus the loses in 2016 Syria would have at this point:

    18 Su-24
    20 MiG-29 (+12 ordered)
    40 Su-17/20/22
    02 MiG-25
    85 MiG-23
    49 MiG-21

    02 Ka-27/28/29/31/32/35
    11 Mi-14
    27 Mi-24/25/35

    Plus 2 transport aircrafts (An-26), 126 transport helicopters (Mi-8/17, Mi-2, SA342) and 101 trainer aircrafts (Yak-130, L-39).

    Russia would be able to easily afford the sale/transfer to Syria of around:

    24 Su-25

    20 Mi-24D (from Russian security forces)
    30 Ka-27PS/32A. (of different variants from Russian security forces)

    Plus a number of units of different models of non-combat aircrafts and helicopters.


    Last edited by eehnie on Sun Nov 13, 2016 9:53 am; edited 1 time in total
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Mon Nov 07, 2016 6:15 am


    The addition of hermes to Russian army looks very game changing in terms of Cost/Performance. Is not practical to use cruise missiles of 1 million dollars ,to kill 2-5 terrorist.
    But with Hermes it can be. And Artillery is not as mobile as soldiers on foot ,that could climb a mountain and rain Hermes missiles day and night on terrorist positions , and they can even enter from any direction ,to hide the positions of the Russian soldiers. Something you cant do
    if use a Kornet ,that reveal your position when fire it.

    Is any combat taking place within 30km of the coast in Syria?

    Any ship carrying Hermes would need to be at least 20km off shore to protect it from land based artillery, so we are not talking a long range inshore.

    Rather than using ship based missiles a Grad like vehicle with 40+ launch tubes on its back ready to fire operating in rear safe areas could perform the role you are talking about, but the extra range would radically reduce impact speed as most velocity will be traded for range.

    Cruise missiles are not used to kill 2-4 terrorists... they are used to destroy Comms centres and HQs and points of interest like large SAM batteries.

    Regarding the game changing nature of Hermes... you could get the same effect with a single Tu-22M3M with an FAB-50 modified with a simple laser guidance kit released from an altitude of 10-12km.

    A modest weight of bombs would be about 6 tons, which would equate to about 120 guided bombs... such a bomb weight would be an ideal combination of size and weight and power... powerful enough for most targets assuming good enough accuracy, yet small and lightweight enough to be carried in large numbers... able to be carried by all sorts of aircraft types including UCAVs... a very low drag design could impact at very high speed... which would be very effective against even heavy armour which rarely has more than token roof protection.
    JohninMK
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    Post  JohninMK on Tue Nov 08, 2016 5:35 pm

    Except they say that there is only a sub in the fleet that can launch Kalibr from the Med.


    A source within Russia's Ministry of Defense told Gazeta.ru that the Navy's aircraft carrier group is ready to launch a strike targeting Daesh terrorists in the province of Aleppo in the next 24 hours. The attack, which will likely engage Kalibr cruise missiles, will target militants outside of Aleppo, and not the residential areas.


    Read more: https://sputniknews.com/middleeast/201611081047197471-russian-aircraft-carrier-strike-syria/
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    Post  JohninMK on Tue Nov 08, 2016 10:25 pm

    Green lemon ‏@green_lemonnn 4h4 hours ago

    #Syria RuAF Tu-214R was busy in northern Homs today

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    Post  AlfaT8 on Tue Nov 08, 2016 10:46 pm

    JohninMK wrote:Except they say that there is only a sub in the fleet that can launch Kalibr from the Med.


    A source within Russia's Ministry of Defense told Gazeta.ru that the Navy's aircraft carrier group is ready to launch a strike targeting Daesh terrorists in the province of Aleppo in the next 24 hours. The attack, which will likely engage Kalibr cruise missiles, will target militants outside of Aleppo, and not the residential areas.


    Read more: https://sputniknews.com/middleeast/201611081047197471-russian-aircraft-carrier-strike-syria/

    I think there gonna make a move towards Al-Bab.
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    Post  JohninMK on Wed Nov 09, 2016 11:56 am

    As they say "the show must go on". Here is one

    S.Hava ‏@Air_4U 46m46 minutes ago

    S.Hava Retweeted Al-Masdar News

    'According to locals in Tartous,at least 5 jets from #Kuznetsov are currently participating in an air show for the ppl on the coast'
    calm
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    Post  calm on Wed Nov 09, 2016 7:28 pm

    3 x Russian Special Flight Squadron
    Over Turkey heading to Israel

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    Post  par far on Wed Nov 09, 2016 7:47 pm

    calm wrote:
    3 x Russian Special Flight Squadron
    Over Turkey heading to Israel

    Russian military intervention and aid to Syria #10 - Page 22 Cw1wxelWIAA9m4W


    What does this mean?
    storm333
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    Post  storm333 on Wed Nov 09, 2016 8:12 pm

    par far wrote:
    calm wrote:
    3 x Russian Special Flight Squadron
    Over Turkey heading to Israel

    Russian military intervention and aid to Syria #10 - Page 22 Cw1wxelWIAA9m4W


    What does this mean?

    Russian PM Medvedev is on his way to Israel for discussion about business and trade, Syria, and discussion with President Abass
    JohninMK
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    Post  JohninMK on Wed Nov 09, 2016 10:24 pm

    What do you think?

    Aldin Abazović ‏@Ald_Aba 6m6 minutes ago

    Could it be #Syria S-300 spotted in Al-Safira base, #Aleppo


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    Post  JohninMK on Thu Nov 10, 2016 10:05 pm

    A recent addition to the Syrian Express, now on second trip south is the Tapir Class Large landing craft Nikolay Filchenkov passing through the Bosphorus

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    storm333
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    Russian military intervention and aid to Syria #10 - Page 22 Empty U.S.-Russian Military Communications on Syria a Work in Progress

    Post  storm333 on Fri Nov 11, 2016 4:58 am

    Every week, a U.S. military team in an air operations center in southwest Asia conducts three regularly scheduled calls with the Russian military to work out rules and procedures for operating in the skies over Syria.

    The procedure in the event of a bombing run on either forces:

    The process is simple: if an American service member operating in Syria comes under attack from a Russian aircraft, he makes an emergency call on the GUARD frequency and uses specific key words to indicate they are striking Americans.

    Then the Russians are supposed to acknowledge the transmission and end the attack.

    The U.S. and Russia have now practiced this procedure on five separate occasions with all five attempts ending in failure.

    US Accusations:
    The U.S. military official said it is increasingly clear that the Russians are just using these tests to pinpoint exactly where American ground forces are operating in Syria.
    "Every interaction with them is an intel-gathering opportunity for them," the official said, adding that the Russians are "playing these intelligence games."

    Lt.Harrigian said that most of the Russian military interactions are actually professional and he believes they have no intention of targeting US forces operating in Syria. But, he warns that as the battlespace becomes more condensed, "the chance for miscalculation increases."

    http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/u-s-russian-military-communications-syria-work-progress-n674906
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    Post  Guest on Fri Nov 11, 2016 5:03 am

    storm333 wrote: Every week, a U.S. military team in an air operations center in southwest Asia conducts three regularly scheduled calls with the Russian military to work out rules and procedures for operating in the skies over Syria.

    The procedure in the event of a bombing run on either forces:

    The process is simple: if an American service member operating in Syria comes under attack from a Russian aircraft, he makes an emergency call on the GUARD frequency and uses specific key words to indicate they are striking Americans.

    Then the Russians are supposed to acknowledge the transmission and end the attack.

    The U.S. and Russia have now practiced this procedure on five separate occasions with all five attempts ending in failure.

    US Accusations:
    The U.S. military official said it is increasingly clear that the Russians are just using these tests to pinpoint exactly where American ground forces are operating in Syria.
    "Every interaction with them is an intel-gathering opportunity for them," the official said, adding that the Russians are "playing these intelligence games."

    Lt.Harrigian said that most of the Russian military interactions are actually professional and he believes they have no intention of targeting US forces operating in Syria. But, he warns that as the battlespace becomes more condensed, "the chance for miscalculation increases."

    http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/u-s-russian-military-communications-syria-work-progress-n674906

    Made up shit. Call of Duty fan it seems. Codewords and pinpointing of someone in area of the size of... well.. Syria.
    JohninMK
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    Post  JohninMK on Fri Nov 11, 2016 11:47 am

    Militarov wrote:
    storm333 wrote:

    Lt.Harrigian said that most of the Russian military interactions are actually professional and he believes they have no intention of targeting US forces operating in Syria. But, he warns that as the battlespace becomes more condensed, "the chance for miscalculation increases."


    Made up shit. Call of Duty fan it seems. Codewords and pinpointing of someone in area of the size of... well.. Syria.

    Hmmm, a lowly Lt as a spokesman???

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