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    T-90 Main Battle Tank #2

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    Regular


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    T-90 Main Battle Tank #2 - Page 23 Empty Re: T-90 Main Battle Tank #2

    Post  Regular Tue Jan 17, 2023 7:52 pm

    Not sure it APS is solution of you drive a tank into enemy. Some russian tanks do have APS, in a way of laser aiming detection, automatic turret aiming and smoke screen dispersal. You can see that in action. Wouldn’t save if let’s say, ATGM was guided last moment before the hit.

    https://twitter.com/TheHumanFund5/status/1612627973651456001?s=20&t=PDr1EH4sVn1P0nPTSEdFdA

    Also, how many times tanks can get shot by ATGMs until APS gives up? What about triggering APS laser detection and not actually engaging? There are so many ways how to defeat APS, it sucks against top attack munitions due to angle. There is reason why Russia doesn’t employ most modern APS en-masse. Technology is there, but it’s not worth the cost. Maybe on T-14 only.
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    Post  galicije83 Tue Jan 17, 2023 7:54 pm

    Yes, they would just get destroyed closer or when APS is expended. Technology can’t fix stupid tactics. The way Russians employ their tanks look nothing like they do in Vostok exercises and makes tanks very vulnerable to all the elements. They are no longer an armoured fist, but a lone middle finger. Good to harass, punch a small hole or two, but that’s about it. Here’s the first.

    Stop right there.

    Firts they are trained as any tankers in a world with tactics when you deployed full tank company on the battlefield and you attack enemy with it when he also deployed his tanks on same. Any country in world use same tactics. Its different here, because you cannot depleyed it in same way. No enemy tanks on other side.
    Second APS have lot of charges not 2-3, so it will be very hard to destroy single tank, especial if you have 2-3 or more, because rest can provide protectio to one who left with aps charges. We can se what happens in Palestina when trophy works...no destroyed tank like it was before him.
    Third when some one hiy at you atgm, you will know from what side came it, so you can shoot it...because system will tell you, attack from left, or right...Vibetsk do it in chopers with voice and you also can see on screen direction of attack...same will be here.


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    Post  ALAMO Tue Jan 17, 2023 8:00 pm

    New post Regular Today at 9:42 am
    confused
    Do I need to be academic to see other than a bad pattern of tank usage? Check videos available from both sides. What I am missing by seeing visual evidence of multiple identical situations that you can see?


    I see perfectly nothing.
    I am not an armored forces vet.
    Nor educated&trained mechanized troops officer.
    I was sitting in 55AM, 72M, 91A, L2A4, L2A5, L2PL, M1A2, Ch2.
    I have watched several maneuvers from a first-person perspective from a VIP tribune.
    I have even made a full day of training at one of the armor brigades for fun.
    I have played with professional army sims multiple times, for fun as well.
    In theory, I can operate RPG, Fagot, Konkurs or Spike.
    Yet that makes me not keen to comment on the general use of armored forces because I am neither trained nor skilled, not even educated for that. Sorry.

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    Post  galicije83 Tue Jan 17, 2023 8:01 pm

    Old APS do not cover top attacks but ArenaM and Afghanith do that.

    No you cannot fool system by laser it only. !? He works when he see missiel in the air, radar see that. So after he see missiel he depliye counter mesures. You have ATGMs with out laser. AT-4 do not have it. So how will you get detect atgm crew when he use non guide atgm on you...this type of atgm are used from close distance. So laser worning system cant derect laser and wouldnt deploye smoke screen...

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    Post  Regular Tue Jan 17, 2023 8:42 pm

    Any country in world use same tactics

    This is insane statement. Even when battle formations are completely different? And tasks?

    Its different here, because you cannot depleyed it in same way. No enemy tanks on other side


    Never seen more outlandish statement, sorry! You probably didn’t hear about WW2 and tank breakthroughs, when Soviets did find gaps where enemy armour wasn’t as numerous and exploited it. It’s not a card game that you have to counter tanks with tanks. VDV didn’t need tanks to stop Ukrainians armour from pushing too far in Kherson. In combined arms, BTG should be able to operate in all environments against any threats. That’s the whole point. It’s more flexible than any western equivalents too.


    Currently employed T-90M has radars and not laser-optical receivers?
    AT-4 managed to damage T-90M from the front? It should be able to eat any CG/AT4 warhead on frontal and even sides.

    Also, you are calling it non guided anti-tank guided missile? I did fire CG and believe me, 200 meters and it’s guided mostly by the wind. Also, frontal arc (and side armour in this case) even with most modern munitions is no go. It’s not a tank killer, it’s a tank scratcher. Even BMP—2M were able to survive multiple, at least 5 hits frontally before getting knocked out.
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    Post  galicije83 Tue Jan 17, 2023 9:21 pm

    Do you serve in tank company or brigade and do you learn about tactics how to use combine forces od battlefield or you will crap me here how they use tanks in WW2 for breakthrough the enemy lines...

    This isnt WW2, many things are changed in this 80+ years....if you have 2 million soldiers to sacrifice them for that kind of tactis then you go and tell that to the generals....

    So i am idiot when i said that we all use same tactics in battlefield when we have big tank companies in attack...look how US and polish army use mighty abrams on battlefield or training...its the same way as they teach in Russia or in my country...



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    Post  Regular Tue Jan 17, 2023 10:38 pm

    Dear God, no I didn’t call you and idiot, just weird statements that I don’t subscribe to. I have no doubt that when it comes to nitty gritty, you will know your tank inside out. The thing, I really don’t agree with you on many points and let’s leave it there. Especially at training. I have served in now quite famous M113s that you can probably find destroyed in Ukraine now.

    No tank experience myself, apart from smelling exhaust of German Leopard 2s and Polish T-72s. It’s no a secret that NATO armies have very uneven training, like let’s take Germans for example. Their tankers barely have 3rd world army training. Not to mention their tank readiness. Soon dutch tankers will also be only able to train on world of tanks. Italians also are quite badly trained. And this is from military alliance that should have same standards, but their training and missions are totally different.

    Russian training is only comparable to Chinese. I am talking about big armoured pushes, massive artillery strikes, combined operations, rest of the world just play games and call it a day. Conventional exercises, even latest NATO ones are just hot air and PR show

    I have watched them. The ONLY combat maneuver they did was fire on the move… No shoot and scoot, no “hunting”, just a basic drill. Tank biathlon in Russia starts with this basic drill that is the whole highlight. When NATO had Soviets as rivals then they did have proper war games lasting for days, it’s all just show. Sorry offtopic, but I think all the NATO armies apart from US have very rudimentary training. Saying this from quite dated experience as I have participated in internationals myself and now remembering it, it was poor, even worse if Americans weren’t involved

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    Post  Isos Wed Jan 18, 2023 1:08 am

    There is no tatics or training to face atgm, suicide drones or air launch guided weapons.

    Either you have APS to protect you or your tank become a piece of burning metal.

    Once your tank enter their firing range and gets detected it is dead. In atgm there is "anti tank", they are weapons made to destroy tanks. Training can't help.

    I don't know why people keep arguing about that. Western athm are just as good as russian ones when it come to destroying tanks. Ffs they are anti tank weapons, they are made to destroy tanks. With modern thermal and recco hardware it is very easy to spot tanks.

    That's why it is very hard to push into the enemy with its vehicles nowadays. If it has a good amount of such atgm you don't push into them.

    Egyptian destroy 700 israeli tanks with at-2 pretty easy. Destroying hundreds of tanks with kornet missiles or drones like lancet is even easier. Most armies can't afford to loose hundreds of tanks, it is deadly to even biggest armies like Russia,, China or US.

    This war shows APS are a must have.
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    Post  lyle6 Wed Jan 18, 2023 1:12 am

    Regular's missing the forest for the trees. Persistent surveillance and lightning fast kill-chains broke the battlefield. Its no longer feasible to overrun the enemy's defenses through speed and aggression using armored spearheads. The suicidal Kherson offensives by Ukraine involving entire mechanized brigades should have already dissuaded you from this idea.

    Instead what we are seeing are both sides - Russia and NATO fumbling around looking for ways to restore the offensive capability of armor. Indeed Russia's constantly experimenting (BMPT, UGVs, Armata, etc.) looking for smarter ways to break this deadlock and they are getting there; they just need more time. In the meantime there is no need to implement the riskier tactics especially not when there is no real urgency. Ukraine's not getting anymore stronger than they were at the start of this conflict while Russia's only became even more powerful than they were ever.

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    Post  ALAMO Wed Jan 18, 2023 1:23 am

    The point is, that western propaganda assists Ukro one in claiming inevitable peremoga due to increasing Ukrowehrmacht military power and technological advantage.
    It can't be more stupid than that, yet remember to whom they are talking to...

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    Post  GarryB Wed Jan 18, 2023 10:18 am

    So GarryB, you think in modern warfare were we have drones for scaning the fields when fight is going,

    I don't think recon drones stop operating when your forces are moving forward or are attacking a position.

    Where are these videos of Russian tanks being used coming from if not from drones?

    you say APS and his radar is problem because enemy will known were are your tanks and what they are doing, because of radar signiture. Well they already know they are because of drones, so why is radar problem then.

    APS systems with operating MMW radar signals would allow real time remote passive tracking of Russian armoured forces that would allow ambushes to be planned in advance... even for long range artillery rockets to lay minefields rapidly and for enemy ambush formations that operate all over the place pretending to be civilians to be directed to attack soft targets without tanks attached.

    The only reason for them to not widely deploy APS systems is because of the emissions from the detection systems, the cost of the system would be recovered very quickly by defeating incoming threats that would otherwise require tanks to be abandoned and later recovered or lost... saving a dozen tanks would easily cover the cost of the system being fitted to all the tanks.

    Let them use new tactics, still you will have advantage ower them, because ATGM will be uselles against tanks because aps will kill it. Mines, you can always put on tanks mine diggers or how you call it and with them mines will be digg and move on side.

    ATGM can still be used against other vehicle types and of course against helicopters.

    I don't know why they are not deploying them widely... what I am doing is speculating as to why that might be.

    They do not fear failure of equipment... it would be better for it to fail in Syria or Ukraine than in Poland or Lithuania... the equipment and weapons are for war, not just parades so getting them battle tested and any problems or issues fixed or solved is important for the Russian military moving forward.

    I would think experience probing enemy positions with tanks will have highlighted that BMPTs are useful vehicles because a BMPT and a tank would compliment each other... perhaps eventually a BMPT vehicle and a remote controlled T-72 could be used... when the technology is refined.

    APS is future on any combat vechicle, not just on tanks...APS with 360° protection...

    I agree, but they need to get them right before they spend big money on them and deploy them everywhere on everything and it wont be until they are widely deployed that their costs will come down and new features added and performance improves even further.

    Do I need to be academic to see other than a bad pattern of tank usage? Check videos available from both sides. What I am missing by seeing visual evidence of multiple identical situations that you can see?

    Do you glance once at something and then decide its future, or do you bother to gather evidence and find out as much as you can before casting your expert judgement?

    See one video and you can fix everything... Rolling Eyes

    Impressive... when you don't even know if anything is even wrong yet.

    and yet, multiple footage and interviews state how it is.

    The Russian military controls what is released and what is not... do you think you have the full picture, or just what you are allowed to see?

    Also, how many times tanks can get shot by ATGMs until APS gives up? What about triggering APS laser detection and not actually engaging? There are so many ways how to defeat APS, it sucks against top attack munitions due to angle.

    Love how you talk about APS like it is one system... APS is Drozd or Arena or Afghanits or Standard on Russian vehicles, Shtora is not active, it is passive and tries to blind or jam or hide the tank with lasers or dazzlers or smoke respectively.

    First model Drozd and second model Drozd II and Arena could not intercept diving weapons because they were mainly intended for use against RPGs which are the most widely deployed conventional threat to tanks on a modern battlefield... later models of ARENA could intercept diving top attack missiles but the original could always defeat top attack missiles like BILL 2 which overflew tanks and fired warheads down at the roof of the target. That is why the ARENA munitions were fired high up into the air, so they could defeat such missiles as they approached too. (also it meant fragments from the intercept munitions could be fired down into the ground reducing the danger zone for friendly troops... no point in launching munitions that kill 50 friendly soldiers standing near your tank to shoot down an ancient RPG that wouldn't penetrate your vehicles armour even with a direct hit).

    Ukraine's not getting anymore stronger than they were at the start of this conflict while Russia's only became even more powerful than they were ever.

    Indeed... when the amazing Challenger IIs arrive... a flight of four Hokums with 12 Vikhrs each should be able to deal with them from 8km away...

    It is amusing that so many were claiming Russia was open and vulnerable to drones... well everyone is... that is the whole point of drones, but ironically Russia is rather better off than most.

    Well when it comes to tanks no other country on the planet has the array of anti tank weapons that the Russians deploy... and they are all modern and very capable... in fact like their land attack precision guided missiles they are actually spoiled for choice.

    There are gaps in their range of murder bots, but they are filling those gaps too.

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    Post  lyle6 Mon Jan 23, 2023 11:21 pm

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    Post  Scorpius Tue Jan 24, 2023 12:23 am

    GarryB wrote:Where are these videos of Russian tanks being used coming from if not from drones?

    In addition, these drone videos are often accompanied by audio recordings of negotiations - for a native Russian speaker, it is clear from these negotiations that the drone operator directs the tank's actions live, acting as a target designator and a fire spotter.

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