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    Talking bollocks thread #2

    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:16 pm

    It's the proof that it was captured during the war.

    They captured all sorts of German equipment during the war and they also copied a lot of it... just like the Americans did.

    V2 rockets started being launched in testing all over the Soviet Union and the US...

    The US M60 machine gun is actually based on the MG-42 machine gun, yet they managed to make it totally inferior to the original.

    Not only they used it, as mentioned in the source I posted, but the AK-47 is it's direct descendant.

    Your ignorance is amusing. the worlds first assault rifle was the Federov Avtomat... it fired a 120 grain bullet at about 650m/s and had a 25 round curved magazine and it was gas operated. It entered Imperial Russian Army service in a testing batch in 1916... I suspect the Germans copied that.

    The Soviets certainly were influenced by it because they include the word Avtomat in the names of all their assault rifles... in the English language the word Hoover is used to describe the act of vaccuming carpet because Hoover produced a product to perform that duty. In some places the product used was called Electralux, and the act of cleaning the carpet is not called Hoovering... it is called Luxing...

    In Russia the name for an Assault rifle is Avtomat for the same reason.

    The Soviets fought just before WWII against the Fins and while they had already designed a SMG they had rejected the idea of putting it in widespread production and service... the short bloody conflict against the Finns made them realise the value of light automatic weapons so they updated the 1940 model SMG with the PPSH-41 and put them in mass production and deployed them as quickly as they could and then a little later with the PPS-43 which was easier and cheaper to make.

    In combat against the Germans both weapons were found to be rather effective, the older model a bit heavy, and a bit fussy about its mags, but they were both excellent weapons... after the war the Finns copied the PPS-43 directly... just like they copied the Mosin rifle and the AK... and during the war the germans developed assault rifles to try to outrange all these Soviet SMGs.

    The German engineers helped Kalashnikov to set up its production.

    German engineers did very little, otherwise it would have been much easier and quicker to set up what ended up being the third model AK production with stamped sheeting.

    The only real impact German engineers had on Soviet Small Arms design was in pistols, because it was not really considered very important.

    I've seen both rifles up close & their similarity is striking.

    Did you bother to open them up because internally their design is totally different.

    The only similarity is the basic layout... and with the gas system on top of the barrel, which plenty of Soviet rifles had before this german weapon even existed, suggests the similarities are superficial.

    The curved magazine is because both used ammo that did not have parallel sides so it would jam a straight mag... the Federov Avtomat has a curved magazine too... did the Germans copy that too?

    It shows that useful things can be adopted by anybody.

    The Germans introduced assault rifles to try to overcome the Soviet superiority in short range fire power with their submachine guns.

    The Soviets reacted by introducing their own assault rifles to counter that... the SKS rifle was introduced to field testing in 1944 during WWII.

    The assault rifle was very effective in open areas but in built up areas like city fighting often its extra reach was hard to take advantage of.

    In comparison the west demanded assault rifle performance with full power rifle cartridges in the immediate post WWII war period.... did they not fight the Germans at all?
    Walther von Oldenburg
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    Post  Walther von Oldenburg Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:57 pm

    Garry - what exactly makes M60 worse than MG42? Just bein' curious.
    flamming_python
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    Post  flamming_python Wed Mar 13, 2019 11:15 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    hoom wrote:
    Yasens seem to be coming along nicely though; fast construction now with many laid down in parallel
    Lots in construction, still only 2 launched & only the first in service.
    3rd was laid down 4yrs after Kazan.
    I'd like to see more of them in the water before leasing out one of the few operational Akulas.

    Agreed, they have another big gap in SSN construction now

    They keep talking about Huskies for years but nothing is happening on that front which would absolutely be no problem at all if they kept building Yasens but still nothing

    They were talking about Gorshkovs a lot but when it was delayed they just ordered some more Admiral Grigoroviches. And on the back of Indian money for the development of the Talwar class too.

    They can just as easily do the same thing and order more Yasens if they need to.
    Shouldn't be any problems.. unless the Yasens also have Ukrainian engines.
    verkhoturye51
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    Post  verkhoturye51 Thu Mar 14, 2019 12:27 am

    do you think this process is going to stop for no reason at all?

    Definitely it takes some assertiveness to stop the US imperialism. The thing is that politics is like a game of chess. A move forward in the wrong time can worsen your position. They play as black and must figure a way to defend themselves. Ukraine is like a central square on the chessboard. They made a successful side intervention in Syria, they've eaten a white pawn and now they enjoy a better starting point for planning the tactics in Ukraine. It was exhausting to play on both sides of chessboard at the same time, defending in Ukraine and "attacking" in Syria. But it was successful because it was well planned, swift and not too wasteful on resources. But repeating Afghanistan in Venezuela could ultimately exhaust their defence budget and public opinion that much, that they couldn't play with the US in Ukraine anymore. Brief Poroshenko's offensive and it's all over. No trade with 3rd world countries and economical gains would offset this geostrategic deterioration. Eg. coastal Aegis in Mariupol and Odessa would require substituting all Kalibr and Onyx missiles in the BS fleet with Zircons, leaving less money for other projects.

    So yes, interventions like Syria are acceptable if they improve a positon, but that was more like a well-planned exception, a bypass for signalling the US that Russia is serious in Ukraine. But most of their energy should be directed directly at this problem. And no blue water navy is required there. The practice confirms this: first production of classes 636 and 677 now, delaying 971 modernization, as well as the production of Husky and 885. Russia getting involved in world conflicts and spend overly on military is exactly what US wants - a repeat of their mistakes. The process you talk about will stop if Russians play it smart and move forward only when neccessary. If giving up Maduro will win them Ukraine, it would be worth it.

    US leverage is getting less and less because when you use links to force others to do as you tell them those links get broken pretty quickly and the US has less and less leverage.

    It was beautiful to see Germany tell the US that they aren't going through Kerch strait in Munich. My point is that right now position isn't exactly rosy with permanent NATO forward presence. It's definitely improving, but it's a result of doing politics and business with Eastern Europe. As you said leverage is decreasing and the US isn't in position to tell countries not to go with bed with Russia when it comes to business like S-400. But abandoning relations with new NATO members for better relations with 3rd world countries would be a strategic mistake. I can easily see Macron's idea of European army taking place in a few years and the US could leave only a small contingent like in S. Korea. But a big contribution that Russia can do right now to make sure this takes place is to strategically sit back quietly and delay the blue water ships production.

    what they do need is the ability to protect allies from the shit the US and the west is pulling on Venezuela right now and what they tried to pull on Syria and Libya and Kosovo and Georgia.

    I see this more as a long-term idea. Firstly to prioritise 677 and 663 projects, than speed up 885 and 971 M and finally Husky, keeping military budget constant all the time. Otherwise it's clear that Venezuela and other partners are important, and if they don't protect them, they'll lose them.
    nomadski
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    Post  nomadski Thu Mar 14, 2019 12:45 am

    I am now afraid to say anything with Garry around ! His knowledge  is equal to an army of men ! My views  are that equipment should have minimum number of parts . And parts should be large enough , not to be lost and easily handled . Everything else being equal .

    As lion said , some things are copied . I think by everyone . I have said in the past , do not copy , or do not copy blindly . For example ,  do we copy Stuxnet  and feed it fertilizers and break down power in America ?  So that  the American housewives fail to cook Thanksgiving  dinner , get upset and send their sons to war to kill our sons ? This is blindly copy .

    Or do we create a zombie stuxnet and give it a Canadian ( for example ) surname ,  and send it to wall street ? Where the millionaires  that planned  the cyber  attack against us , gamble with the national wealth  ? They will soon loose their gold plated toilets and have to sit in their pants ? Maybe then they will not go asking for more money to do cyber attacks in the world ?

    American and European millionaires , have many obscure banks in the Caribbean . Where they stash their ill gotten gains . They have property and mansions too . Closer to Venezuela !



    Last edited by nomadski on Fri Mar 15, 2019 6:02 am; edited 1 time in total
    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion Thu Mar 14, 2019 5:59 am

    Your ignorance is amusing.
    I'm not as ignorant as u think:
    https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2016/10/26/didnt-design-anything-else-mikhail-kalashnikovs-great-firearms-portfolio/

    http://newslanc.com/kalashnikovs-real-story/

    http://transsylvaniaphoenix.blogspot.com/2009/02/michail-kalashnikov-admits-german-help.html

    The German know-how inspired AK-47s & AKMs helped to keep Asia, ME, S. Africa, C. & S. America out of USA's control so far.
    No wonder the US tries to prevent Russia-Germany economic cooperation, as together they r unbeatable.
    miketheterrible
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    Post  miketheterrible Thu Mar 14, 2019 7:31 am

    East German MiG-29's were apparently very good aircraft and we're very good with the German pilots. Just saying.
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Thu Mar 14, 2019 8:41 pm

    Definitely it takes some assertiveness to stop the US imperialism. The thing is that politics is like a game of chess.

    I agree to a certain extent except the situation means everything.

    This game of chess is a special game of chess where the bully and his jnr bully buddies are prepared to change the rules or ignore the rules when it suits them and the people present include some who don't hate Russia but wont get the shit kicked out of them to support them too much.

    The Americans own the board and the game is being played at their house and the referee is Americas dad... who also owes America a lot of money too...

    This is not a game Russia would ever even consider being able to win... the board and the pieces will be on the floor and handguns pulled before that happens... they can only hope for minor victories.

    Fortunately unlike the US, Russia does not want to destroy the US, that is not a goal... by the looks of it the US is doing a better job of destroying its image in front of the other witnesses better than Russia could ever willfully manage.

    Russia could stoop to their level... like Vann wants... fight fire with fire... and in that case Russia could do some serious damage but would also seriously destroy its own future in the process... Americas power is not going to improve from its actions and it is rapidly losing any respect it might have had for third parties, simply for its abuse and it general character... for many the culture is appealing but scratch the surface and actually look at the reality and it is all a facade as fake as a hollywood set...

    Eventually Russia will realise its future is more promising as a partner with the rest of the world and a real alternative to western bullshit, rather than just another conquest of the west... which is pretty much what you have to be before they will accept you... their big companies stripping assets and resources at cut prices, to devour your wealth to feed the machine that is the 3-4% of really really rich people in the west getting slightly richer... then the media conglomerates they own will accept you as a part of the western democracy ensuring peace and security for the world... as long as you keep in step like the EU and Australia and New Zealand does.

    No trade with 3rd world countries and economical gains would offset this geostrategic deterioration. Eg. coastal Aegis in Mariupol and Odessa would require substituting all Kalibr and Onyx missiles in the BS fleet with Zircons, leaving less money for other projects.

    Russia will grow and develop with trade and those third world countries are their best alternative to the corrupt and controlling west.

    US bases in the Ukraine can be targeted with Iskander armed with a nuclear warhead very very easily and very cheaply... those forward deployed units they moved from Germany east to Poland and the Baltic states and soon the Ukraine... they can name those bases ground zero, because if any shit kicks off they will be the first to see the sunrise... even at 2am if you get what I am saying... Naval fleet Zircon missiles simply would not be needed... Iskander can already do most of what is needed with nuke payloads of course, but with the INF treaty gone the entire continent of Europe can be battered and hollowed out without wasting a single ICBM... it is brilliant for the Russians.

    The only down side is that hair trigger threat, but the solution to that is a decent, well equipped IADS and Russia is practically there... not one single country within NATO or the EU is even close let alone a collective system for them all... the only thing they have anything like an IADS in NATO is on their ships.


    So yes, interventions like Syria are acceptable if they improve a positon, but that was more like a well-planned exception, a bypass for signalling the US that Russia is serious in Ukraine. But most of their energy should be directed directly at this problem. And no blue water navy is required there.

    Perhaps you didn't hear or maybe you just ignored it, but a few years ago Putin was asked by a western reporter why Russian forces are in Syria, and his answer was simple, logical, SENSIBLE, and so so so relevant now.

    He basically said there are thousands of radical Russians that have gone to Syria to fight for terrorists... he said Russia can wait for them to get combat experience and then wait for them to come back and fight them at home, or they can go to Syria and help an ally fight terrorists in Syria and hopefully kill some Russians before they can bring that shit home with them.

    Western leaders ignored him and took in the white helmets who weren't even their citizens... I really look forward to see how that works out...

    The practice confirms this: first production of classes 636 and 677 now, delaying 971 modernization, as well as the production of Husky and 885. Russia getting involved in world conflicts and spend overly on military is exactly what US wants - a repeat of their mistakes.

    They they are not over spending, most of their solutions are cheap and affordable and they are not building ships like China, they are updating and upgrading almost everything, but their budget has gone down in recent years, not up.

    They have been very smart in their investment and development of weapons and systems... they are not replicating the US military... they have no ABM systems in Cuba or central or south america... but with S-400 and S-500 and S-350 they are going to have the most formidable air defences on the planet that will first cover Russia and then any sea or water space they choose to send their ships... when the naval models enter service.

    If giving up Maduro will win them Ukraine, it would be worth it.

    What could they possibly win in the Ukraine?

    If there was a vote tommorrow and the sheila won... which would probably be the best possible result from Russias perspective... she is no more pro Russia than any other competing politician, in fact she would probably be a bit smarter than old Poro and likely be more of a problem rather than less.

    She would probably be accepted by all the ukrainians so the conflict would probably stop, but she is rather unlikely to turn the ship around and become best buddies with Russia. And if she did I would be very suspicious.

    Maybe the plan all along was to buy and sell bits of the ukraine of any value and now it is worth nothing let Russia have it back and have to pay to rebuild.

    It made sense to rebuild the crimea... they are russians and it is russian territory.

    Ukraine on the other hand will still include a lot of people who hate Russia... enough to burn people to death... why would Russia want those sorts of people on their team?

    It was beautiful to see Germany tell the US that they aren't going through Kerch strait in Munich.

    Well, did you miss the obvious point... why didn't the US send a ship of their own... previously that would be a formality because they used to control Turkey... but clearly not any more...

    The Germans are not stupid... they have their own history in that region too.

    But abandoning relations with new NATO members for better relations with 3rd world countries would be a strategic mistake. I can easily see Macron's idea of European army taking place in a few years and the US could leave only a small contingent like in S. Korea. But a big contribution that Russia can do right now to make sure this takes place is to strategically sit back quietly and delay the blue water ships production.

    I am not suggesting building a wall completely to the west, some countries are prepared to trade, and certainly if they want to buy gas, certainly sell that to them, but don't look at them like a dog looks at its owner when it thinks it is going for a walk... they will only use you when it suits them they think less of you than they think of someone elses dog... don't forget that.
    (It is OK... they are total bastards anyway... it is not in your interests to be friends with them in the short, medium or long term.)

    I see this more as a long-term idea. Firstly to prioritise 677 and 663 projects, than speed up 885 and 971 M and finally Husky, keeping military budget constant all the time. Otherwise it's clear that Venezuela and other partners are important, and if they don't protect them, they'll lose them.

    I am not suggesting they lay down CVNs and cruisers right now and blow out the budget... a few arsenal ships by 2030 plus the K and a CVN maybe 2-4 years away from fitting out and they will be doing well...
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Thu Mar 14, 2019 11:17 pm

    Garry - what exactly makes M60 worse than MG42? Just bein' curious.

    Well where to begin.

    Well to start with the carrying handle is attached to the heat shield and not the barrel so you need a pair of oven mits for the barrel change, you have to half take the fucking thing apart to change the damn barrel... which is something you are doing under fire so it needs to be quick and easy.
    The front iron sight is fixed so you can't zero the weapon using the front sight... which means you need to remember the zero for each fricking barrel and adjust the rear sight every time you change barrel... which you wont so everytime you change the barrel you need to rezero the gun or you are just simply going to miss the target.
    It is also heavy, and not very reliable with a lot of stoppages even with good ammo.
    The bipod is attached near the muzzle of the barrel... so if you have three barrels the you also have three bipods to carry too.

    Their mistake was they tried to copy both the FG-42 and the MG-42 and ended up with a piece of crap that really wasn't as good as either.

    At least it is not as bad as their 50 heavy browning machine gun that needs headspace and timing adjustments every time you change the barrel...

    I'm not as ignorant as u think:

    Congrats, you have read a few webpages about the guy, unlike the vast majority of western experts who think they just copied a german rifle and put his name on it.

    I mean just above you stated you thought the AK has the same design as the STG-43 because externally they look similar... so I guess that proves the F-15 is clearly a copy of a MiG-25 for the very same reason...

    And how much can you trust a website that has this:

    https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2015/05/28/poison-pill-indeed-7n6-out-of-a-krinkov/

    I mean Krinkov isn't even a Russian word... it is pathetic.


    Last edited by GarryB on Fri Mar 15, 2019 12:02 pm; edited 1 time in total
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Thu Mar 14, 2019 11:22 pm

    The German know-how inspired AK-47s & AKMs helped to keep Asia, ME, S. Africa, C. & S. America out of USA's control so far.
    No wonder the US tries to prevent Russia-Germany economic cooperation, as together they r unbeatable.

    German know-how got the US to the moon but they never actually say that to anyone... in fact it is their dirty little secret.

    They were already producing PPS-43s using stamping press technology, if German engineers were so helpful why did it take until the early 1950s to get a heavy enough sheet stamping process up and running to make AKs... and those early milled AKs lasted a lot better than the early stamped AKs...

    This is enough  Off Topic .
    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion Fri Mar 15, 2019 4:00 am

    you stated you thought the AK has the same design as the STG-43 because externally they look similar..
    I didn't imply "the same design", only that it's "a direct descendant".
    The Suomi KP/-31 appeared earlier, was even more accurate, & with the same rate of fire:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suomi_KP/-31

    All US diplomats r gone now:
    https://ria.ru/20190314/1551806525.html

    Did the US Cause the Blackout in Venezuela?
    The preponderance of evidence points to the positive answer.


    Last edited by Tsavo Lion on Fri Mar 15, 2019 11:23 am; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : add link)
    verkhoturye51
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    Post  verkhoturye51 Fri Mar 15, 2019 4:30 am

    This game of chess is a special game of chess

    Russians are very down to earth. If the US sends Blackwater to organise riots in Kiev, they can always get active on Twitter when elections are approaching. I very much agree that they were romantically idealistic about us good guys and them bad guys in the first years under Putin. He helped them a lot in Afghanistan, naively expecting the same back. But he's learned from experience. Look at the Gerasimov doctrine of hybrid warfare. It recognizes how important is e.g. information warfare in this new chess, so it focuses on public support and political mobilization. If they hadn't found a regulated way to deal with this sphere, the US could still be playing it dirty - lying and corrupting opposition. Equal society and fair play you mentioned are the whole point and the reason why we want more Russian influence.

    Russia will grow and develop with trade and those third world countries are their best alternative to the corrupt and controlling west.

    But where does the GDP growth come from? While I agree that Russian trade with the Third world has been increasing considerably in the last few years, expensive weapons and energy deals are still their bread and butter. The third economic pillar, that I see rising for the first time after the fall of SU is machinery - civil aircraft like Superjet, cars and agricultural machinery. The highest added value and the most profitable are deals with developed countries - selling gas to Germany, S-400 to the US allies. Africa is one giant resource-treasure, but you can't sell expensive stuff there. Yes, they've been focusing too much on trade with west before the sanctions, and now they're diversifying with China and other countries. But repeating the same mistake in Africa while giving up EU markets to US companies would be a bad business decision. They're doing the contrary, selling more gas via eg. Nord Stream 2 and Balkan stream to gain more political leverage and make it harder to impose new sanctions.

    US bases in the Ukraine can be targeted with Iskander armed with a nuclear warhead very very easily and very cheaply.

    I think it's clear that Russians have great army, who can find a good response to almost anything. But why let white pawn move one step towards you and worsen your long-term position? Maybe they should play the conflict with Ukraine down and become best friends in 10 years. Aegis base would cement the pro-US position of Ukraine. This could be why Lavrov doesn't appear to be making overly confident moves in Venezuela, which could prove short-sighted because of the US reactions on Russian border.

    He basically said there are thousands of radical Russians that have gone to Syria to fight for terrorists.

    I'm sure there's plenty of reasons for intervention in Syria, all of which have some short-term consequences for enhanced security in Syria and Russia, as well as geopolitical impact on the Russo-American big game.

    What could they possibly win in the Ukraine?

    The communication between Russia and the US seems to be very poor now, especially if you compare it to the times of the Moscow conference, where Churchill and Stalin drew a plan on how to divide the influence in Europe on a serviette. So the game is getting rough with little to no indulgence. But sooner or later they'll have to realise that making agreements is better then simply letting the stronger win via the market logic.

    I don't think Ukrainians have a say. Small countries are pawns in the game of the big guys. US can decide to leave Ukraine to Russia and doesn't invite it to NATO, while Germany  doesn't let it to EU. Then little will remain of Ukraine's pro-western path. After people realise it, guys like Poroshenko can't be elected again. "Independent Ukraine" idea would gain momentum, letting no western military instalations on its territory, while finally trading with Russia again and that's already great from Russian perspective. I think the US can be convinced to do it - the threat of Zircons in the western Atlantic is pretty serious, not to mention strategic nuclear weapons.

    971 can carry 12 Granats, so it could be a potent carrier for Zircons, too.
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Fri Mar 15, 2019 12:11 pm

    The Suomi KP/-31 appeared earlier, was even more accurate, & with the same rate of fire

    The Soviets were happy to copy anything that was useful, and were not ashamed of admitting to it when it actually happened... suggesting the PPSH-41 is a copy of the KP-31 because they look similar is amusing because the PPSH-41 also looks like the PPD-34 and the much earlier German MP-18.

    As you mentioned the KP-31 was a nice weapon, but too expensive to make in large numbers... are you actually suggesting you think the Soviets copied it?

    They looked at it and all they copied was the drum magazine... and eventually they realised that it was difficult to make reliable so they eventually dropped that and went for 35 round stick magazines for the 41 and only stick mags for the 43.

    The Fins admit they copied the 43.

    I am removing these off topic posts.
    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion Fri Mar 15, 2019 12:39 pm

    I know they didn't copy the Finnish gun. The Germans had MP40s & later MP44s, but the Soviets had several machine pistols in 1941-45 period. Of course, both used each other's guns. So the USSR had trouble designing a good automatic weapon until the AK-47 appeared, with German influence. The same with u-boats that influenced design of their post-war diesel subs. Case closed.

    After Syria - Venezuela?
    The Bolivarian Republic becomes a new point of collision of the strategic interests of Russia and the USA + China!


    Last edited by Tsavo Lion on Fri Mar 15, 2019 1:17 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : add link)
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Fri Mar 15, 2019 6:58 pm

    I know they didn't copy the Finnish gun.

    They looked at it and certainly would have copied it if it suited their needs, but they got a hold of it in the late 1930s when it was used against them... they examined it carefully and came to the conclusion that their current PPD-34 and the PPD-40 that replaced it were actually easier to make and had performance that was really no worse, the only thing they liked was the 71 round drum magazine... which they did copy and admit to copying.

    The Germans had MP40s & later MP44s, but the Soviets had several machine pistols in 1941-45 period.

    The Soviets had SMGs from the early 1930s and with each model they further improved the design... the 7.62x25mm was vastly better than the 9x19mm round in a SMG and extended the effective range of their SMGs to 100-150m.

    Every country that had SMGs went from an over engineered heavy design that were basically metal tubes with wooden shoulder stocks to a smaller lighter all metal cheaper model... the brits, the americans, the germans, the soviets, and the finns.... the Lanchester to Sten, the Thompson to Grease Gun, the MP-18 to the MP-38 and 40, the PPSh-41 to the PPS-43, and the Finns who basically went from their gun to their copy of the PPS-43.

    So the USSR had trouble designing a good automatic weapon until the AK-47 appeared, with German influence.

    And then you say something stupid...

    The Tokarev range of automatic rifles were prized and sought after by the Germans, who also fixed their awful G-41, by replacing its terrible gas system with a direct copy of the gas system on the Tokarev SVT-40.

    In many ways the Tokarev was superior to the M1 Garand, it had a removable box magazine... they just didn't make it in as large numbers and it was supposed to supplement both bolt action rifles and SMG, till 1944 when they started field testing the SKS... which is way better than the Garand... simpler, easier to use.

    The same with u-boats that influenced design of their post-war diesel subs. Case closed.

    Bullshit. The Germans had a lot of good ideas, but most they never actually got to work... which is often the hardest part.

    Russia sent most of its captured germans home in the very early 1950s, I believe the Americans continued to use their nazis... but not just the Americans... the man who developed the drug thalidomide was an unrepentant nazi... no surprise that company had problems with its attitude to patients... when it was banned in one country they shifted production and marketing to other markets... they are probably still selling the stuff in the third world...
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    Post  GarryB Fri Mar 15, 2019 7:46 pm

    I very much agree that they were romantically idealistic about us good guys and them bad guys in the first years under Putin. He helped them a lot in Afghanistan, naively expecting the same back

    But that is an important thing.... both sides could have seriously helped the other in a lot of areas... it could have been mutually beneficial, but with no big powerful boogey man to justify the three quarters of a trillion annual budget something had to be done...

    Equal society and fair play you mentioned are the whole point and the reason why we want more Russian influence.

    What we desperately need is alternatives... whether they are Russian, or Indian, or Chinese... the UK, France, Spain and Portugal, Italy and Japan and Germany have all thrown their lot in with the US and really are not independent cultural options...

    While I agree that Russian trade with the Third world has been increasing considerably in the last few years, expensive weapons and energy deals are still their bread and butter. The third economic pillar, that I see rising for the first time after the fall of SU is machinery - civil aircraft like Superjet, cars and agricultural machinery.

    Most countries want to feed themselves, so selling agricultural machinery and know how will be of benefit, but food surplus production means countries suffering drought or storm damage can buy food and if Russia has similar issues can sell food to Russia when they have a surplus. Supplying energy... not just oil and gas or nuclear, but solar and wind and other options too... diversity is good. Sell them TVs and computers and fridges and ovens and anything else they want...

    The highest added value and the most profitable are deals with developed countries - selling gas to Germany, S-400 to the US allies. Africa is one giant resource-treasure, but you can't sell expensive stuff there.

    Really? Because the only Russian stuff I see in the shops here are cheap night vision gear that seems to be imported via China... even Russian ammo brands are getting scarce these days. If sales here are so profitable where are all their products for sale?

    The Fact is that even if you could send a Russian made TV here... it would not stack up to the ones from South Korea or China... so send it to Cambodia or Fiji and make money by selling huge numbers because they are cheap and the only ones in the store...

    Yes, they've been focusing too much on trade with west before the sanctions, and now they're diversifying with China and other countries. But repeating the same mistake in Africa while giving up EU markets to US companies would be a bad business decision. They're doing the contrary, selling more gas via eg. Nord Stream 2 and Balkan stream to gain more political leverage and make it harder to impose new sanctions.

    The western markets are not looking for Russian products... don't refuse sales, but don't waste time trying to make the horse drink from a champaign glass.

    But why let white pawn move one step towards you and worsen your long-term position?

    If the enemy wants to sacrifice pawns, don't stop him... just be wary of what he is doing it for.

    Maybe they should play the conflict with Ukraine down and become best friends in 10 years. Aegis base would cement the pro-US position of Ukraine. This could be why Lavrov doesn't appear to be making overly confident moves in Venezuela, which could prove short-sighted because of the US reactions on Russian border.

    Of course... if Russia acts nice then the US will realise they are being censored  and back off... except that has not worked for the last 30 years, why would it start working now?

    Russians withdrew their forces from eastern europe... the US withdraw their forces from western europe... forward into eastern europe and former soviet states including the baltics and georgia and several of the 'stans.


    I'm sure there's plenty of reasons for intervention in Syria, all of which have some short-term consequences for enhanced security in Syria and Russia, as well as geopolitical impact on the Russo-American big game.

    Right now a lot of radical ISIS fuckers want to go home to the nice warm comfortable west because their goals of an islamic country built on the bones of the Syrian and Iraqi people didn't come to pass... thanks mainly to Syria, Russia, Iran, and Iraq and even Turkey... the US and Israel probably gave more aid to ISIS than hindrance.. even to this day.

    But sooner or later they'll have to realise that making agreements is better then simply letting the stronger win via the market logic.

    America is exceptional and can do as it pleases... Russia and China will never sign off on that so there is little to no chance of agreements any time soon... America has to fall... financially.

    I don't think Ukrainians have a say.

    The ones in the Crimea had their say, and seem overall happy at the results.

    The Ukrainians have to stand up to the bullies... both anti russian ukrainians and pro us pro eu ukrainians, and of course the americans.... until then there is nothing to talk about.

    US can decide to leave Ukraine to Russia and doesn't invite it to NATO, while Germany  doesn't let it to EU.

    It is a broken country... america knows... it broke it... NATO might take them on because land closer to Russia is considered valuable to them... they don't give a shit that it makes them a nuclear target... for most of the rest of NATO that just means one less nuke pointing at them. They wont let it enter the EU because it is broken and would be a drain rather than a plus for the organisation.

    They will be like Turkey... useful location but we don't actually want you in our gang because you smell bad... and are too different.

    After people realise it, guys like Poroshenko can't be elected again.

    I suspect Poro is screwed anyway... all his friends are now much richer... he likely has not much more to achieve in office... he will be heading to the US no doubt shortly after the next election I suspect... with his pockets full.

    I think the US can be convinced to do it - the threat of Zircons in the western Atlantic is pretty serious, not to mention strategic nuclear weapons.

    All the more reason for hanging on to the Ukraine and Georgia for all they are worth... they don't give a shit if both countries collapse... just means the top 2 percent rich of the west can buy up everything they want... including under age hookers... and Antonov...

    This is all very off topic so I will shift most of this to the talking bollock II thread early tomorrow...
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    Post  nomadski Fri Mar 15, 2019 9:15 pm

    Yes I know , what I said about identifying ( hypothetical  ) retaliatory targets  in USA and  Caribbean  is not  policy of Russia or Venezuela . And it is a bit risky . On internet forum . But justifiable  and proportional self defence is legal under international law . Specially  non- lethal and economic measures. Stating this on internet forum , may induce other parties to think about possible retaliatory measures . And push them to stop .

    But we talk about advantages of some small arms . But do not find the target . This terror attack in New Zealand was  done by the English ( tribe ) . In our region , in the ME , during recent history , all manner of attacks were perpetuated  by the English . Anything from Winston Churchill ordering a gas attack against the Kurds to support for anti - democratic coup in Iran in 1953 , to support for terror group of Taliban against socialist government , to support with chemical weapons for Saddam in attack against revolutionary Iran , to invasion and destruction of Afghanistan , Iraq , Libya,  Syria , to establishment of ISIS, to slaughter of revolutionary  movement in Yemen , to occupation of Palestine , to support for dictatorship in Saudi and Egypt  ...................

    It is all an English terrorism problem . Even my central heating repair man , identifying himself as a protestant soldier, ex-servicemen , who "served" in Northern Ireland and Iraq , claimed proudly that he had seen upsetting things , meaning a death threat against me ! And did the English police act ? No , they said , he did not mean it !


    Unless this problem of English terrorism is  resolved . And problem correctly identified . Then no amount of guns will solve the problem . Irrespective of make and calibre .

    We can trade with capitalists . We are as nations , capitalist . But we can not live with racists . Or racist terrorists  that are an unfortunate historical product . I said Trump is racist . Some said , he is better than some  others . We can do business with him . I said try and fail . And learn . Now they ( in Iran ) are learning . The young ones that did not know ..........
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    Post  verkhoturye51 Sat Mar 16, 2019 3:23 am

    Because the only Russian stuff I see in the shops here are cheap night vision gear that seems to be imported via China

    The NZ government can't buy Russian arms, because the US would start bullying it.

    A TV isn't really a representative Russian export product. 80 % of Russian exports are natural resources and arms. Add simple processed goods, like food, timber, textil, chemicals and you're over 90 %. So if you want to grow, you need to grow the industries you have. Indian S-400 deal alone was worth 5 bn or 25 % of total yearly arms exports. Missiles and cheap fighters is where their competitive advantage is and they should exploit it to the max because this is what will make them grow. Forget ammo and electronics.

    The western markets are not looking for Russian products.

    Supply creates its own demand. The whole west is against Nord stream 2 and yet they are doing everything they can to finish it. When billions are in the game you don't care who are you giving a drink.

    If the enemy wants to sacrifice pawns, don't stop him.  

    I won't start citing zillion of times the Russians said NATO expansion is a major security threat to Russia.

    In this special chess you can make white figures flip sides. 40 million people economy would be good to trade with. Or do you believe Kiev that the entire Ukraine wants NATO? There's 15 % of pure Russians plus many smart people who get that integrating poor and rich doesn't work.

    if Russia acts nice then the US will realise they are being censored  and back off

    If they were too weak under Yeltsin, they shouldn't go full Kim Jong Un now. After Ukraine and Syria if Russians show they move pawns forward only when neccessary, the US won't be so afraid to step one step back. They stepped one step back in Syria already and it was because nice guy Russians talked with all rebel-supporting countries and Astana process. Carrot and stick. Bring your Iskanders over there and you have a CVN permanently deployed in East Med.

    Right now a lot of radical ISIS fuckers want to go home to the nice warm comfortable west

    If terrorists were the only reason why they didn't come before Assad was on the verge of collapse? Or bomb ISIS in Iraq, too?

    America is exceptional and can do as it pleases

    After they failed to fix Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya and Syria, the US voters started looking at anti-interventionalists like Trump and Sanders. Besides ever stronger China and Russia would force any president to get real.

    American imperialism has to fall.

    The Ukrainians have to stand up to the bullies.  

    And yet the leading candidate Zelensky says they should negotiate with Moscow directly rather than Donetsk. Going to the true ruler makes negotiations easier. Btw he doesn't look that bad with this Moscow talks in comparison to the other two NATO fanatics.

     It is a broken country  

    A good politician once said: Russia with Ukraine is still an empire, without it, it's not anymore. Nikolayev alone will be useful for Liders.

     They will be like Turkey... useful location but we don't actually want you in our gang because you smell bad    

    It's exactly the opposite. In EU they'd look weird with their post-Soviet-structured economy. But for the same reason Russia is their natural ideal partner for integration. Similar economy and willing to spend billions on gas discounts.

    All the more reason for hanging on to the Ukraine and Georgia for all they are worth... they don't give a shit if both countries collapse  

    Who cares about figureheads of the US MIC. They barely keep the sanctions alive with all the opposition from EU.
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    Post  GarryB Sat Mar 16, 2019 1:52 pm

    The NZ government can't buy Russian arms, because the US would start bullying it.

    Not talking about government to government stuff, I mean trade... country to country... and the only products in the NZ market I have been able to find are in the field of hunting, including small arms ammo, rifles, and night vision equipment, but most of that is now very scarce... it is hard to get Russian brand ammo here these days... I talked to a guy a the local gunshop and he says they get all their Russian brand ammo via a guy in Germany and his sources are drying up apparently.

    Russia needs to pull finger and set up agents... not secret agents, but trade agents around the place because every set of hands it goes through adds extra cost and extra links to a fragile chain...

    A TV isn't really a representative Russian export product. 80 % of Russian exports are natural resources and arms. Add simple processed goods, like food, timber, textil, chemicals and you're over 90 %. So if you want to grow, you need to grow the industries you have.

    I disagree, If Russia has to make everything for itself to make itself sanction proof then it should be able to to produce all sorts of products and currently with the rouble so cheap they should be able to sell to anyone... they wont corner the super high tech luxury market, the big asian names will take that market, but they can take the good solid reliable practical sector of the market... no frills or meaningless extras, and for a very good price. Not budget crap. But made properly with materials that weren't expensive and labour that is not expensive in a volume that means spares and support shouldn't be a problem.

    Indian S-400 deal alone was worth 5 bn or 25 % of total yearly arms exports. Missiles and cheap fighters is where their competitive advantage is and they should exploit it to the max because this is what will make them grow. Forget ammo and electronics.

    But those big orders are not going to happen every year and those are high tech expensive products... they are likely not making an enormous profit with those sales. Normally it is the ammo and servicing contracts where they make the most profit.

    You might buy a $50 million dollar fighter... some of its missiles and bombs are going to be a million dollars or more each... and they have to train, but also for some air forces there are targets they have to engage too.

    Supply creates its own demand. The whole west is against Nord stream 2 and yet they are doing everything they can to finish it. When billions are in the game you don't care who are you giving a drink.

    Actually that is a joke... the western countries that oppose the deal think Russia is the enemy... if Russia really was the enemy they would stop using those pipes to deliver Russian gas, they would set up enormous plants to liquify their gas and then ship it to europe for about twice as much as europe pays for gas now.

    Europe needs gas and it can get cheap gas piped from Russia, or it can get more expensive gas from Russia in liquid form shipped to europe. The alternative is to pay even more for American LNG... without those pipelines europe still needs energy, it will just be paying more for it. If Russia has to spend money to create LNG then that frees them up to deliver it to anyone who can pay for it.

    From Europes perspective the pipes are the best option... it is cheapest... it means gas can be sent any time and arrives much quicker than by ship.

    From Russian perspective... they have gas and there are people who will buy it if Europe does not want it... they can make it easier and cheaper for the customer with pipes or they can liquify it and sell to anyone at all.

    From the American perspective they sell LNG but the cost means their main allies prefer to buy from Russia. America actually does not have enough LNG resources to actually fully supply Europe anyway, but they will bully Europe into taking some American LNG.

    Ultimately the US and some in Europe are afraid that Russian pipes bypassing the Ukraine will cost the Ukes their transit fees, which is about their only reliable income at the moment... they fear it because they know they will have to make up the difference or explain why the pro west utopia of the Ukraine is such a failed shithole.

    Russia is building these new pipes to bypass the Ukraine because the Ukraine steals transit gas, which the ultimate customers in europe have a habit of blaming Russia for and they are sick of it.

    In this special chess you can make white figures flip sides.

    No you can't. You can't make anyone do anything. There are double agents and triple agents and a person that changes sides for money can be changed back for more money so their value is zero... they change when the wind direction changes... such friends are worse than enemies.

    40 million people economy would be good to trade with.

    40 million people who salute nazis, who were happy for the last half decade to burn russia supporters to death for being pro russian.

    You can't paint them all with the same brush, but they have lost trust and it will take time to get it back... first they need to be a stable neighbour for a while.

    Or do you believe Kiev that the entire Ukraine wants NATO?

    Wouldn't believe them if they said water was wet.

    They stepped one step back in Syria already and it was because nice guy Russians

    No they haven't... they are still there supporting their terrorist head chopping friends.

    Bring your Iskanders over there and you have a CVN permanently deployed in East Med.

    Actually having something to aim at would be useful...

    If terrorists were the only reason why they didn't come before Assad was on the verge of collapse? Or bomb ISIS in Iraq, too?

    The western and eastern and Russian ISIS fighters didn't come back when Assad was on the verge of collapse was because they had almost won and were about to get their heaven on earth... all those women in the conquered lands were going to be their 72 virgins each... probably aged between 8 and 12 years old... but then the big bad Russians and the big bad Iranians stepped in and all of a sudden they had real opponents to fight and they lost.

    They are leaving Syria now because they lost.

    After they failed to fix Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya and Syria, the US voters started looking at anti-interventionalists like Trump and Sanders. Besides ever stronger China and Russia would force any president to get real.

    What makes you think there was ever any intention to fix anything? It was all about punishment and revenge, not to mention prevention... before Saddam and Gadaffi were killed they were talking about changing from US dollars for oil to something else... when Assad was a good guy he didn't say such things but then he said something similar and look at how the west describe him today...

    Afghanistan was all about 11/9 because obviously when terrorists from Pakistan and Saudi Arabia hijack aircraft and destroy things in the US, the first thing you do is invade Iraq and Afghanistan because the person you are after (Saudi) is probably hiding in Afghanistan (Pakistan).

    Very Happy   Just as well this is the talking bollocks thread because it is the only place US foreign policy doesn't stand out as being a little strange...


    American imperialism has to fall.

    The American people will be better off when it does... the irony is that all the BS they spout... if they actually stuck to that I think they would get respect and trust, but they are the opposite, so are despised for pretending to be nice and actually being evil.


    And yet the leading candidate Zelensky says they should negotiate with Moscow directly rather than Donetsk

    Which just goes to show he has no idea what is going on there either... Moscow doesn't control anything in the Ukraine... Donetsk might listen to Moscow, and I could see why they would not listen to Kiev until there are new free fair and open elections and that the winner does not go to Donetsk with tanks and soldiers and artillery, but goes to talk...

    Going to the true ruler makes negotiations easier. Btw he doesn't look that bad with this Moscow talks in comparison to the other two NATO fanatics.

    Why do you, or he think Moscow controls this situation... you might as well say Russian forces are occupying the area in question so of course Moscow controls the situation.

    If Kiev wants a resolution they need to put the weapons away and talk to their own people...Moscow and NATO and the US don't need to have anything to do with this.. the only reason Moscow could get involved is when Kiev bowls up with guns and bombs and the opposition feels threatened... moscows presence makes them feel safer... get rid of the weapons and BS and remove the need for the super powers and they can sort through their shit together.

    A good politician once said: Russia with Ukraine is still an empire, without it, it's not anymore. Nikolayev alone will be useful for Liders.

    It would equal the cost of about 5 liders to fix that place up and get it to the point where it can make real military ships again... why piss that money away on a hostile foreign country?

    Eric Cartman once said: Screw you guys... I'm going home.

    It's exactly the opposite. In EU they'd look weird with their post-Soviet-structured economy. But for the same reason Russia is their natural ideal partner for integration. Similar economy and willing to spend billions on gas discounts.

    What are you talking about? The Ukraines economy is nothing like the EUs, and the Ukraine has no money and no gas discounts and if it joined the EU it would get no gas discounts at all from Russia.

    Who cares about figureheads of the US MIC. They barely keep the sanctions alive with all the opposition from EU.

    Who do you think Trump listens to... people worried about the plight of the Ukrainian people or the Georgian people, or the CEOs of companies that make money in conflicts who want to build germ labs in those countries... it is ideal... if there is a leak... who cares... just say it is unrelated to the secret germ labs that are "not" located in those countries...
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    Post  Vann7 Sat Mar 16, 2019 2:25 pm

    And im not surprised not even remotely..
    in the forum PapaDragon don't contribute in any way to this forum.. is one of the lowest iq members
    in the forum.. the only thing he does is Defend Israel and US government all the time ,and blame
    Russia of "conspiracies theories" whenever they say anything negative against their zionist heroes.

    He completely ignore facts when presented. he is a troll and if it was by me will have been banned
    long time ago.. Is the only Troll im aware in the forums ,that never backups anything he claim with
    anything and always comes to the defense of Israel and US over any issue. blaming others..
    as was the case of Bombing of Russian mercenaries in Syria.. that he blamed Syria and IRAN ..for it. and for the shutdown of Russian spy plane , Russian government blame Israel and he then comes in defense of their zionist friends..

    All this crazy "non sense" terror attacks , do make a lot of sense ,if their goal is to discredit
    Russia credibility in the world.. then what is the best way to do it? To do something really crazy
    that nobody will believe because will not make sense.. for most people..  Si what sense have
    an American Embassy employee with a Mortar shell in an airport ?   that is done to ridiculize Russia
    when they report about it.. nobody will believe it.. for being unthinkable..  

    Well guess what?  World Trade Center , 7 planes attacks on US ,was also unthinkable ,that something like that will happen.. but it happen.. and even more unthinkable was that Americans did it.. that it was an inside job..

    3,000 engineers have seminars several times a year holding conference convinced that the attacks
    on 911 WTC were inside job ,for their discovery of military grade nano explossives in all 3 buildings
    dust that was spread all over the city..

    Then we have the syrian war... Who will have though  US and its major allies will be backing
    Alqaeda and ISIS with weapons to overrun a nation with 30 millions of citizens? nobody will have believed , but it did happen..  

    So this drilling sabotage on Soyuz and now this Mortar shell , found in an airport by a security
    Agents on the cargo of a US embassy staff.. does not surprise me in any way..

    All this terror provocations   are 100% Intentionally done with no other reason than to discredit Russia government and RT.     Why will they want to do that?

    Because Russian government is saying..
    1)US is supporting ,arming and training ISIS and Alqaeda in Syria..  (all the time in Russian media)
    2)Hinting that US manned moon landing was a fraud.. that it never happened.. (hinted by RT at times)
    3)Russia RT even made a documentary that shows 911WTC was an inside job..

    RT documentary  :Truthseeker-- 911 Exposed, FALSE FLAG
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xawMPVuWoS0

    no less than 3,116 TOP world Architects & Engineers world wide
    are saying that 911 WTC was an inside job.. that buildings don't collapse
     by fire , in controlled demolition perfect way..
     


    explosive evidence..that 911 was an inside job.by US Gov..
    report by world top scientist and Engineers.. This contradict the claims
    of idiots , that if something like this was true.. (911WTC  inside job)
    that people will have spoken.. But they did.. but nobody listen..  
    Senators ,world Top Engineers ,Scientist , Pentagon former Generals.
    former FBI directors.. all say it was an inside job.. a demolition company
    rigged all 3 building with explosives , and the Pentagon was fired by a missile..
    the planes all of them were used as a distraction , as a cover for the bombs and missile.

    The same investigators.. that the US congress hired for the 911 report.. question their own
    investigation ,saying it was made by the white house to fail...to cover up
    what really happened..  Laughing



    9/11 Commissioners question Their Official Story

    Lee Hamilton

    9/11 Commission co-chair Lee Hamilton says "I don't believe for a minute we got everything right", that the Commission was set up to fail, that people should keep asking questions about 9/11, that the 9/11 debate should continue, and that the 9/11 Commission report was only "the first draft" of history.

    Bob Kerrey

    9/11 Commissioner Bob Kerrey said that "There are ample reasons to suspect that there may be some alternative to what we outlined in our version . . . We didn't have access . . . ."
    Timothy Roemer

    9/11 Commissioner Timothy Roemer said "We were extremely frustrated with the false statements we were getting"

    Max Cleland

    Former 9/11 Commissioner Max Cleland resigned from the Commission, stating: "It is a national scandal"; "This investigation is now compromised"; and "One of these days we will have to get the full story because the 9-11 issue is so important to America. But this White House wants to cover it up".


    So what we have?

    -The apollo moon landing was the biggest fraud on history of United States..
    -911 WTC was the second biggest fraud..
    -Syria war "fight against terrorism by NATO ) , the third major fraud. .

    In all 3 scandals RT have exposed them.. so it makes sense for American government
    to want to discredit Russia gov and Russia space program.. by creating provocations
    than when reported will be difficult to believe as it was the Mortar shell found in the package
    of a US embassy worker..

    another provocation was.. the famous fool spy ,an American Embassy staff with a blond wig
    and map and very amateurish tools.. that was stopped by FSB when was trying
    to Bribe an agent..

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CX1TyoG7zwA

    All this provocations are done , is the most ridiculous way and at same time dangerous
    possible to discredit Russia ,when they report about it.  

    So in summary , we are speaking here about the most corrupt country on the planet..
    Who in cold blood murder 3,000 american citizens on 911 their own territory faking an external terror attack , to justify endless wars fighting elusive terrorist..  and that in Syria have been arming and financing ISIS and Alqaeda to this date..  of whether or not they have the integrity to do a sabotage to Soyuz ??   of course they will do it any day... if they could get something important back..
    and that is Discredit Russia ,if NASA accuses of something unthinkable  ,at least by the most
    ignorant and lowest IQ people like PD...

    So expect many more provocations and more sabotage against Russia space program..
    Either attacks on Soyuz or in Russia space satellites. US needs at any cost to discredit
    Russia , if it wants to get away with another 911 WTC inside job or another fake moon landing
    or any other war // To discredit Russia government and RT is very important for the west.
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    Post  PapaDragon Sat Mar 16, 2019 11:27 pm

    To Flat Earther:

    I'm on the phone right now so I'll keep this brief: Go f**k yourself, you are last person who should be commenting on anyone's IQ
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    Post  verkhoturye51 Sun Mar 17, 2019 1:44 am

    Not talking about government to government stuff

    Ammo and rifles aren't that big deal. 50 % of Russian arms exports are fighters, 25 % missiles etc. These are all products with high added value. But if you have politicians who think that leaning towards west will be the best balance against increasing Chinese investment, than it doesn't matter how cheap and good Russian arms are. Going for a NPP could be a start though.

    I disagree, If Russia has to make everything for itself to make itself sanction proof

    It's important to diversify and trade with different countries. But also develop other sectors for the case 20-year peace period comes and all your S-400 producers go bankrupt. That's why Putin told shipyards to start making civilian yachts and fishing boats.

    But those big orders are not going to happen every year and those are high tech expensive products...

    Specialization is basic idea behind the trade. If you're good at something, focus on this and sell it to the others. If you're not, why waste time and sources developing such industry? Russians are so good at NPPs and S-400 that they're selling it even to US allies. It's all about expensive items today. If you can't make expensive TV, make expensive air defense system. Something were you have know how and high tech that will allow you to survive on the market in the long run. Russian workers can always buy Chinese TVs, but they need to have high salaries, be employed in perspective profitable industries.

    they change when the wind direction changes... such friends are worse than enemies.

    But this is life and forgiving and not having too big Iskander in your pants is the point of any social relationship, politics included. They turned Moldova from pro-EU to pro-Russia by working out the differences between themselves. No politics and only military thinking brings you to isolation like N. Korea.

    first they need to be a stable neighbour for a while.

    Yes, I think Russians know this and Minsk II is basically about giving enough autonomy to Donbass, that they can just veto NATO and EU agreements, keeping Ukraine neutral.

    No they haven't... they are still there supporting their terrorist head chopping friends.

    Anyway, the point is Trump knows there's no way he'll have word about future of Syria, so instead of staying there till the end and appearing loser, he wants to quietly let Erdogan represent him.

    Actually having something to aim at would be useful...

    I'm trying to say if Russians brought to Syria just bombs they'd finish up like the US in Afghanistan. Rather than dividing the nation and neighbourhood they've employed their peace process and bilateral diplomacy and not only won the war, but are on the verge of assuring a long-rerm stability in the single most volatile region in the world.

    The western and eastern and Russian ISIS fighters didn't come back when Assad was on the verge of collapse was because they had almost won

    It doesn't decrease geopolitic meaning of Russians presence in the Middle East. After endless US failures to stabilize the region, the Russians actually did it. It improved their relations with all the countries in the region economically - they can trade more, diplomatically - count on more votes at the UN, militarilly - Tartus and Latakia etc. One of the best articles on this hybrid mix of Russian policies is: https://jamestown.org/program/russias-middle-eastern-position-in-2025/

    What makes you think there was ever any intention to fix anything?

    Regardless, the idea is that we need more Russian global influence to fix Middle East, Korea, Yemen and other conflicts. They have large army, large economy, that can support interventions, strong bilateral ties with all the countries in the world and experience from Syria.

    I could see why they would not listen to Kiev until there are new free fair and open elections and that the winner does not go to Donetsk with tanks and soldiers and artillery, but goes to talk

    Yes, they need to stop working by force and take into account Donbass people, that don't want NATO. Neutral Ukraine is what want both Donetsk and Moscow.

    remove the need for the super powers and they can sort through their shit together.

    Super powers were needed to calm down the situation. To talk without intermediaries would be a big step forward.

    It would equal the cost of about 5 liders to fix that place up and get it to the point where it can make real military ships again

    Black sea shipyard continues to make big ships and engineering department is still intact, so I'm not afraid for the future. However it needs right orders to keep it alive and make it again a strategic asset. If military junta privatizes it, they could start making passenger ships and than Russia would really have to invest a lot in a new shipyard.

    if it joined the EU it would get no gas discounts at all from Russia.

    So what's wrong with joining Eurasian economic community?

    Who do you think Trump listens to.

    I think the MIC CEOs are more happy now with US withdrawing for world conflicts. The US will spend less on fuel and salaries, but the investment in new arms, that keeps MIC alive, is even bigger under Trump.
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    Vann7

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    Post  Vann7 Sun Mar 17, 2019 9:34 am

    PapaDragon wrote:To Flat Earther:

    I'm on the phone right now so I'll keep this brief: Go f**k yourself, you are last person who should be commenting on anyone's IQ

    lol
    I don't believe in the flat earth non sense... It was created to discredit the fake apollo moon landing of NASA. which one 100% staged..  Since most flatearthers support it too.. This are tactics of disinformation  and i see you do it all the time..  which basically is when you lack arguments to defend
    any position , then the messenger is the one they see to discredit. in order to downplay their valid claims.

    And is not only Rogozing the one that claims US is suspect of Sabotage and terrorism.. but
    the Russian government too..  The military which i had no reason to not believe all the time
    expose US military of having an alliance with Terrorist Groups.. and Putin himself also have said this..
    So it will be not a surprise at all that NASA was behind the sabotage of Soyuz.. the fact that Russia will install cameras inside the ISS to monitor Americans movements is very telling.   Cool

    SO to everyone else.. my message is this..
    Marks my words.. There will be more Crazy provocations against Russia by Americans..
    Provocations in Space, Russia embassies ,or Russia territory by Americans.. or other close NATO
    allies like Canada , UK .. or even France..
    that they will be intentionally provocative actions that will have no logic or sense .. as the sabotage
    of Soyuz.. the more illogical the provocations the better.. that way When Russia government report
    about the incident .and tell things how it happened...it will be so difficult to believe that nobody will believe it.. because of the lack of logic..But the logic is to discredit Russia Government and Russian media , if they are forced every week or month to report about provocations attacks from Americans or allies that makes no sense to explain.


    PapaDragon
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    Talking bollocks thread #2 - Page 24 Empty temp talking bollocks content

    Post  PapaDragon Sun Mar 17, 2019 11:05 am

    Flat Earther wrote:And im not surprised not even remotely..
    in the forum PapaDragon don't contribute in any way to this forum.. is one of the lowest iq members
    in the forum.. the only thing he does is Defend Israel and US government all the time ,and blame
    Russia of "conspiracies theories" whenever they say anything negative against their zionist heroes.

    He completely ignore facts when presented. he is a troll and if it was by me will have been banned
    long time ago.. Is the only Troll im aware in the forums ,that never backups anything he claim with
    anything and always comes to the defense of Israel and US over any issue. blaming others..
    as was the case of Bombing of Russian mercenaries in Syria.. that he blamed Syria and IRAN ..for it. and for the shutdown of Russian spy plane , Russian government blame Israel and he then comes in defense of their zionist friends..

    All this crazy "non sense" terror attacks , do make a lot of sense ,if their goal is to discredit
    Russia credibility in the world.. then what is the best way to do it? To do something really crazy
    that nobody will believe because will not make sense.. for most people..  Si what sense have
    an American Embassy employee with a Mortar shell in an airport ?   that is done to ridiculize Russia
    when they report about it.. nobody will believe it.. for being unthinkable..  

    Well guess what?  World Trade Center , 7 planes attacks on US ,was also unthinkable ,that something like that will happen.. but it happen.. and even more unthinkable was that Americans did it.. that it was an inside job..

    3,000 engineers have seminars several times a year holding conference convinced that the attacks
    on 911 WTC were inside job ,for their discovery of military grade nano explossives in all 3 buildings
    dust that was spread all over the city..

    Then we have the syrian war... Who will have though  US and its major allies will be backing
    Alqaeda and ISIS with weapons to overrun a nation with 30 millions of citizens? nobody will have believed , but it did happen..  

    So this drilling sabotage on Soyuz and now this Mortar shell , found in an airport by a security
    Agents on the cargo of a US embassy staff.. does not surprise me in any way..

    All this terror provocations   are 100% Intentionally done with no other reason than to discredit Russia government and RT.     Why will they want to do that?

    Because Russian government is saying..
    1)US is supporting ,arming and training ISIS and Alqaeda in Syria..  (all the time in Russian media)
    2)Hinting that US manned moon landing was a fraud.. that it never happened.. (hinted by RT at times)
    3)Russia RT even made a documentary that shows 911WTC was an inside job..

    RT documentary  :Truthseeker-- 911 Exposed, FALSE FLAG
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xawMPVuWoS0

    no less than 3,116 TOP world Architects & Engineers world wide
    are saying that 911 WTC was an inside job.. that buildings don't collapse
     by fire , in controlled demolition perfect way..
     
    ....

    explosive evidence..that 911 was an inside job.by US Gov..
    report by world top scientist and Engineers.. This contradict the claims
    of idiots , that if something like this was true.. (911WTC  inside job)
    that people will have spoken.. But they did.. but nobody listen..  
    Senators ,world Top Engineers ,Scientist , Pentagon former Generals.
    former FBI directors.. all say it was an inside job.. a demolition company
    rigged all 3 building with explosives , and the Pentagon was fired by a missile..
    the planes all of them were used as a distraction , as a cover for the bombs and missile.

    The same investigators.. that the US congress hired for the 911 report.. question their own
    investigation ,saying it was made by the white house to fail...to cover up
    what really happened..  Laughing



    9/11 Commissioners question Their Official Story

    Lee Hamilton

    9/11 Commission co-chair Lee Hamilton says "I don't believe for a minute we got everything right", that the Commission was set up to fail, that people should keep asking questions about 9/11, that the 9/11 debate should continue, and that the 9/11 Commission report was only "the first draft" of history.

    Bob Kerrey

    9/11 Commissioner Bob Kerrey said that "There are ample reasons to suspect that there may be some alternative to what we outlined in our version . . . We didn't have access . . . ."
    Timothy Roemer

    9/11 Commissioner Timothy Roemer said "We were extremely frustrated with the false statements we were getting"

    Max Cleland

    Former 9/11 Commissioner Max Cleland resigned from the Commission, stating: "It is a national scandal"; "This investigation is now compromised"; and "One of these days we will have to get the full story because the 9-11 issue is so important to America. But this White House wants to cover it up".


    So what we have?

    -The apollo moon landing was the biggest fraud on history of United States..
    -911 WTC was the second biggest fraud..
    -Syria war "fight against terrorism by NATO ) , the third major fraud. .

    In all 3 scandals RT have exposed them.. so it makes sense for American government
    to want to discredit Russia gov and Russia space program.. by creating provocations
    than when reported will be difficult to believe as it was the Mortar shell found in the package
    of a US embassy worker..

    another provocation was.. the famous fool spy ,an American Embassy staff with a blond wig
    and map and very amateurish tools.. that was stopped by FSB when was trying
    to Bribe an agent..

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CX1TyoG7zwA

    All this provocations are done , is the most ridiculous way and at same time dangerous
    possible to discredit Russia ,when they report about it.  

    So in summary , we are speaking here about the most corrupt country on the planet..
    Who in cold blood murder 3,000 american citizens on 911 their own territory faking an external terror attack , to justify endless wars fighting elusive terrorist..  and that in Syria have been arming and financing ISIS and Alqaeda to this date..  of whether or not they have the integrity to do a sabotage to Soyuz ??   of course they will do it any day... if they could get something important back..
    and that is Discredit Russia ,if NASA accuses of something unthinkable  ,at least by the most
    ignorant and lowest IQ people like PD...

    So expect many more provocations and more sabotage against Russia space program..
    Either attacks on Soyuz or in Russia space satellites. US needs at any cost to discredit
    Russia , if it wants to get away with another 911 WTC inside job or another fake moon landing
    or any other war // To discredit Russia government and RT is very important for the west.




    Flat Earther wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:To Flat Earther:

    I'm on the phone right now so I'll keep this brief: Go f**k yourself, you are last person who should be commenting on anyone's IQ

    lol
    I don't believe in the flat earth non sense... It was created to discredit the fake apollo moon landing of NASA. which one 100% staged.. Since most flatearthers support it too.. This are tactics of disinformation and i see you do it all the time.. which basically is when you lack arguments to defend
    any position , then the messenger is the one they see to discredit. in order to downplay their valid claims.

    And is not only Rogozing the one that claims US is suspect of Sabotage and terrorism.. but
    the Russian government too.. The military which i had no reason to not believe all the time
    expose US military of having an alliance with Terrorist Groups.. and Putin himself also have said this..
    So it will be not a surprise at all that NASA was behind the sabotage of Soyuz.. the fact that Russia will install cameras inside the ISS to monitor Americans movements is very telling. Cool

    SO to everyone else.. my message is this..
    Marks my words.. There will be more Crazy provocations against Russia by Americans..
    Provocations in Space, Russia embassies ,or Russia territory by Americans.. or other close NATO
    allies like Canada , UK .. or even France..
    that they will be intentionally provocative actions that will have no logic or sense .. as the sabotage
    of Soyuz.. the more illogical the provocations the better.. that way When Russia government report
    about the incident .and tell things how it happened...it will be so difficult to believe that nobody will believe it.. because of the lack of logic..But the logic is to discredit Russia Government and Russian media , if they are forced every week or month to report about provocations attacks from Americans or allies that makes no sense to explain.



    Talking bollocks thread #2 - Page 24 ORIGINAL
    GarryB
    GarryB

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    Talking bollocks thread #2 - Page 24 Empty Re: Talking bollocks thread #2

    Post  GarryB Sun Mar 17, 2019 1:39 pm

    Ammo and rifles aren't that big deal. 50 % of Russian arms exports are fighters, 25 % missiles etc. These are all products with high added value.

    But not that big a market, they are probably already selling the S-400s to all the countries that can afford them.... with Saudi leader in the dog box there is no way he is buying S-400s now, so that leaves perhaps UAE maybe and that is probably it.

    They have lost their eastern european market and most of their other allies either can't afford them, don't really need them, or have already signed contracts...

    They need to expand their range of export products... and western sanctions means western consumer products will be difficult to get in Russia, but asian brands or consumer electronics are better anyway. The question for Russia is what don't the asians do well that they normally buy from europe that they could make themselves and hopefully get it to a standard where it is comparable in performance and quality to the european stuff but just cheaper to make in volume... and then compete with the europeans on the international market with those better cheaper products... that means the rest of the world and also the rather rich asian market too...

    It takes 5 years to negotiate an agreement to sell S-400 and they are not going to come up with a replacement system every 5 years... and even if they did only China and India could afford to keep buying the new model.... whether they would or not is another question.

    But if you have politicians who think that leaning towards west will be the best balance against increasing Chinese investment, than it doesn't matter how cheap and good Russian arms are. Going for a NPP could be a start though.

    As mentioned above Russia is going to be part of the trade route between europe and asia, so it would make sense for them to try to replace some of that traffic with their own products in both directions and take advantage of their geographic location in the middle.

    It's important to diversify and trade with different countries. But also develop other sectors for the case 20-year peace period comes and all your S-400 producers go bankrupt. That's why Putin told shipyards to start making civilian yachts and fishing boats.

    Diversification makes sense because sales are never consistent in any one area over time.

    If you are a sheep farmer and the price of meat and wool goes down you struggle, but if you have dairy as well and a contract to sell milk then you have a constant income from the milk to keep things ticking over in the difficult times... the meat and wool prices might go back up but then you lose the milk contract... which is ok... you can sell fresh milk at the local markets, and you could get into other areas like making your own cheese or other products... if you have a few steep and rocky paddocks on hillsides, plant it out in pine trees and in 25 years you get a few million dollars in wood/timber... (New Zealand has a mild climate so pine trees mature in about 25 years... which makes it a good retirement option... most young farmers could get two crops of trees over 50 years...)

    For Russian companies it is important to diversify in areas that make sense... because you have to be competitive in the areas you go into, but it means in difficult times one side of the business can carry other less successful parts until they get going.

    If one part of the org never seems to get going... change it to something that will.

    Specialization is basic idea behind the trade. If you're good at something, focus on this and sell it to the others. If you're not, why waste time and sources developing such industry?

    But you don't have to be the best in a market to succeed... look at ball point pens... not every one of them has to be a work of art that will last 200 years. Most will be lost within a few weeks anyway, so low cost and reasonable performance can actually sell you more pens that being the best.

    The best might be $30 and given to a worker for dedicated service or some other encouragement or thankyou, but most of the pens you will buy will be $2 a box of 5 plain blue pens and you will buy a carton of the damn things at a time.

    In Germany, they might want very high spec quality pens just for the general public and they might not even give a plastic pen a second look. Professionals might want even more specialised and expensive pens... but they might also want German pens.
    In a market in Indonesia they might want a cheap pen that will work for as long as they own it... maybe 3-4 months.

    Anyone can make an expensive pen, or more accurately anyone can charge too much for a pen, but getting the quality and cost to a level where you can sell the pen for a good/fair price and still make money on the sale is the key... it does not need to be the best quality, but it does need to do the job... which is pretty much a general description for most Soviet and Russian weapons isn't it?

    Does the job, but not over engineered and not too expensive or too complicated.

    Russians are so good at NPPs and S-400 that they're selling it even to US allies. It's all about expensive items today. If you can't make expensive TV, make expensive air defense system. Something were you have know how and high tech that will allow you to survive on the market in the long run. Russian workers can always buy Chinese TVs, but they need to have high salaries, be employed in perspective profitable industries.

    Yeah, you don't get it.

    Walk in to a big shop and go into the rug section and look at the rugs... different materials are different costs... polypropolene will be about $120, wool might be $3-400. Animal hide can be $5-700 depending on the shop (some shops you could double those numbers).

    The point is that if you look at what that shop is paying for those rugs the polyprop might have cost them $30, the wool might have been $50, and the animal hide might have been $80-100.

    Most people wont buy things at full price and when they see the half price special on all rugs so the polyprop is $65, the wool is $150, and the animal hide is $275 they think they are getting an amazing bargain...

    The makers of expensive items don't make what you see in the shops, and it is all about margins... the polyprop might cost $15 to make so the company that makes them sells them for $30 to the western shop retail group... that retail group might have to buy a range of patterns and after the first batch goes on sale they might find two sell out straight away and there might be slow sales on the rest except for one design they might not sell at all. The design that doesn't sell will get 40% off and if it still doesn't sell it will go to clearance and might not even sell for $30 each, so they wont buy any more of those. For the maker, they might find some designs don't sell in some markets but does sell in others so they will find other markets to sell the ones that are not popular. There are also companies that buy stuff that does not sell... they normally have the name warehouse in their brand name and they buy up the unpopular stuff and sell it off relatively cheap... the maker might sell them for $20 to such places, and those places will hock them off initially for $50 and then reduce until they sell... they deal in volumes so they don't need to make a big profit on each sale... people go in to the rug area after seeing retail prices above and the highest price being $50 and they just spend on something they would not have looked twice at in the other store.

    What I am getting at is that the S-400 is an expensive system, but it is expensive to make so when they sell it for billions of dollars, that is not all profit... they have to make them and supply them and if they lose some in a storm well that adds to their costs and takes away some of their profit... unless it is covered by insurance... which would cut in to profit too.

    But this is life and forgiving and not having too big Iskander in your pants is the point of any social relationship, politics included. They turned Moldova from pro-EU to pro-Russia by working out the differences between themselves. No politics and only military thinking brings you to isolation like N. Korea.

    I would think the actions of the EU helped. EU at the moment is a sanction imposing, inflexible mess that wont negotiate and wont bend... no wonder the UK wants to leave... of course the EU wants it to be painful and drawn out to deter other members from thinking of leaving, but it shows their bad faith...

    Anyway, the point is Trump knows there's no way he'll have word about future of Syria, so instead of staying there till the end and appearing loser, he wants to quietly let Erdogan represent him.

    First he was leaving and now they are staying... trump doesn't know what trump wants...


    I'm trying to say if Russians brought to Syria just bombs they'd finish up like the US in Afghanistan. Rather than dividing the nation and neighbourhood they've employed their peace process and bilateral diplomacy and not only won the war, but are on the verge of assuring a long-rerm stability in the single most volatile region in the world.

    Well, yes, instead of picking the good side and the bad side and then supporting the good side no matter what crimes they commit and bombing the bad side no matter what the situation, the Russians have gone in and talked to pretty much everyone, and those that refused to talk they used force to corner them in to realising talking is better than fighting sometimes... and countries in the area notice how it acts. It tries to cooperate with everyone including Israel and Turkey and the US.

    Even factions in Libya want the Russians to go there and sort things out... I suspect the Kurds would want the Russians on their side too, but I doubt that given the history with the US and kurds in the past.

    Still, even in afghanistan, Russian negotiations seem the most effective and practical in finding a solution there.... no thanks to the Americans.

    It doesn't decrease geopolitic meaning of Russians presence in the Middle East. After endless US failures to stabilize the region, the Russians actually did it. It improved their relations with all the countries in the region economically - they can trade more, diplomatically - count on more votes at the UN, militarilly - Tartus and Latakia etc. One of the best articles on this hybrid mix of Russian policies is:

    Sorry... Jamestown.org? wouldn't pass water over that shit. It might as well be a CIA assessment... and probably is... which I am not interested in.

    Regardless, the idea is that we need more Russian global influence to fix Middle East, Korea, Yemen and other conflicts. They have large army, large economy, that can support interventions, strong bilateral ties with all the countries in the world and experience from Syria.

    Russia is not the world policeman. Who would fund such escapades and adventures? Improved international relations might be a benefit, but how do you sell that to the mothers of dead Russian soldiers... they don't serve to fix the world... they serve to keep Russia safe.

    Neutral Ukraine is what want both Donetsk and Moscow.

    I suspect what Donetsk wants is an elected Kiev that does not shell them, rather than a coup led by nazis financed and supported by the US and EU...

    Super powers were needed to calm down the situation. To talk without intermediaries would be a big step forward.

    It was the US that created the situation in the first place...

    Black sea shipyard continues to make big ships and engineering department is still intact, so I'm not afraid for the future. However it needs right orders to keep it alive and make it again a strategic asset. If military junta privatizes it, they could start making passenger ships and than Russia would really have to invest a lot in a new shipyard.

    Not really Russias problem, Russia spent decades investing in the Ukraine, from Antonov transports to engines from Motor Sich that powered their ships and helos and aircraft and what was the result?

    Russia has plenty of shipyards that could do with projects to make ships, in fact there are countries within the EU that have been rather more supportive of Russia than the others and passenger ships could be ordered from those countries before orders for the Ukraine I would think...

    That is if they want to risk any purchases there... much better and much quicker to get boats made in South Korea and China to be honest.

    So what's wrong with joining Eurasian economic community?

    You don't get it... the US and the EU wont let the Ukraine be friends with Russia or Asia or anyone else... you can't have both... they are either friends with the US and EU or they are friends with Russia and China... Not both.

    I think the MIC CEOs are more happy now with US withdrawing for world conflicts. The US will spend less on fuel and salaries, but the investment in new arms, that keeps MIC alive, is even bigger under Trump.

    What are you talking about?

    Trump said they were pulling out of Syria... now they are not... they are likely to attack Venezuela any day now... what is this bullshit about withdrawing from world conflicts... they created most of them and are not withdrawing from any.

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