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    U.E.C.- Russian aircraft engines

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    Arrow


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    Post  Arrow Sat Nov 09, 2024 12:02 pm

    So they still have less infrastructure for jet engine building than the West. And probably less than Russia as well. wrote:


    Russia may have overtaken the West when it comes to building engines for tactical aviation. Currently, the West does not have an engine at the level of the AL 51F1? The F 119 is an older design with lower performance? Maybe the F 135?
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    Post  lancelot Sat Nov 09, 2024 12:38 pm

    Arrow wrote:Russia may have overtaken the West when it comes to building engines for tactical aviation. Currently, the West does not have an engine at the level of the AL 51F1? The F 119 is an older design with lower performance? Maybe the F 135?
    The AL51F1 is still not in serial production I think. I still have not seen any serial aircraft with it.
    In theory the US has more advanced engine technology than the F135 at the test stand.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Electric_XA100
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    Post  marcellogo Sat Nov 09, 2024 7:52 pm

    Program suspended as such type of engines would have not any particular utility in the F-35.
    Its better advantage could be to allow supercruise but such a regime would have not any utility for a plane that could just reach mach 1.6 anyway.
    It could have it instead on a Flanker or a Su-57 with current engines.
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    Post  Arrow Sat Nov 09, 2024 11:08 pm

    Program suspended as such type of engines would have not any particular utility in the F-35. Its better advantage could be to allow supercruise but such a regime would have not any utility for a plane that could just reach mach 1.6 anyway. wrote:

    It will be for the NGAD program.

    n theory the US has more advanced engine technology than the F135 at the test stand. wrote:

    It follows that the US can still be the leader in the field of aircraft engines. China will probably catch up and overtake Russia in this respect in a few years or a decade, and maybe even the US.
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    Post  marcellogo Sun Nov 10, 2024 10:47 am

    No, it was for the F-35 and even the NGAD for the moment has been freezed and I'm quite sure it will not be advanced further almost NOT in the current for.
    And everyone is searching for variable cycle engines now and could be that the Su-57M would be the first one to get it anyway.
    USAF is not in need for a substitute for the F-22A, it need to fill the gap between the huge numbers of planes now more than 30+ year old and the
    F-35 dismal operative readiness.

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    Post  Arrow Sun Nov 10, 2024 10:51 am

    And everyone is searching for variable cycle engines now and could be that the Su-57M would be the first one to get it anyway. wrote:

    Do you think the AL-51F1 has a variable cycle bypass? The Russians have already created prototypes of such an engine, it was the AL-41 for the MiG MFI.
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    Post  marcellogo Sun Nov 10, 2024 12:36 pm

    Arrow wrote:

    Do you think the AL-51F1 has a variable cycle bypass? The Russians have already created prototypes of such an engine, it was the AL-41 for the MiG MFI.

    They are working on it but as a further upgrading, they have still to field the basic version.

    Let's forget to see the Variable cycle one on planes of the first batch.
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    Post  Arrow Sun Nov 10, 2024 12:47 pm

    hey are working on it but as a further upgrading, they have still to field the basic version. wrote:

    It will definitely take another decade. Look how long they have been working on the AL-51 and there is no end in sight. It is not known when we will see it on the serial Su-57. At one time, the Russians developed this technology on the AL-41 and the US on the YF 120 for the F-22 or F-23, but they chose the cheaper and less complex option F 119.
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    Post  Big_Gazza Mon Nov 11, 2024 3:38 am

    LMFS wrote:It is understood that the engine tested on the Su-57 was the actual izd. 30. But it contains too sensitive technology to be marketed.

    On the other hand, the Russians probably perceive the demands for a more advanced engine than AL-31 in the market and probably don't want to leave it to the Chinese, who are making steady progress in the field too. So they applied new technologies coming from their 5th gen research into the existing AL-31 family. They are masters of this kind of optimization, which on top of bringing new life to existing products, de-risk upcoming ones...

    LMFS wrote:This is a true 3D TVC proposal from Salyut, nothing to do with the izd. 30

    Good feedback, tyvm thumbsup

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    Post  GarryB Mon Nov 11, 2024 5:36 am

    It will definitely take another decade. Look how long they have been working on the AL-51 and there is no end in sight.

    You have no idea, so why do you make such claims?

    Your claim that the US is ahead because it has x number of F-35s... well then they are ahead when the F-35 works as advertised... including the fact that it will get much cheaper when everyone buys them... everyone bought them and it is only getting more expensive. The amazing computer software based supply system was going to make it the cheapest plane to operate and that was cancelled. Almost like it was a lie to get countries to buy with the promises that in the future it would get fixed.

    The people whispering these things are likely the same people whispering to Zelenksy and Poroshenko that you don't have to negotiate... we will give you the weapons and money and you can win on the battlefield... how is that working out?

    These same people are whispering to the people of Georgia that they can start a second front against Russia and in the three or four days they estimate it will take Russia to demolish their standing army they should able to last for months or years in a guerilla war against Russia taking horrible casualties but it will get you into the EU and HATO.... when you defeat the Russians...

    It seems marketing and sales has replaced reality in the US, which is why they seem to be losing at everything... even the propaganda war... the western propaganda machines are awash with a stalemate or ceasefire... ignoring that Putin has already said a ceasefire while the west rearms Kiev is not an option.

    Look how long they have been working on the AL-51 and there is no end in sight. It is not known when we will see it on the serial Su-57.

    The Al-51 was always considered a midlife upgrade engine and was never intended to be fitted to the first serial produced aircraft... or even part of the first serial batch (ie first 76 aircraft) AFAIK. It was supposed to be a midlife upgrade to boost electrical power on the aircraft and increase thrust to counter any increases in weights for heavier weapons or more onboard equipment.

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    Post  sepheronx Mon Nov 11, 2024 6:43 am

    the same people like Arrow said Su-57 would never come out. Then it did and they said it would only be a few. Then it appeared more was being built and fielded. So now they need a new claim.

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    Post  GarryB Mon Nov 11, 2024 10:10 am

    And the new claim is that it will be shit until it gets the new engines, or that China is making a better plane.

    Well it is the US and the EU that have declared Russia as their enemy they want to strategically defeat, while China is a neighbour and a friend and trading partner... Russia should be happy for China for its economic success and help them any way they can without sabotaging themselves of course.

    If you want to be the best at everything you should prepare yourself to be disappointed.

    Trying to be the best at everything is a good goal but cheating and attacking others and sabotage to make it a reality and you will isolate yourself and no one will trade or work with you.

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    Post  lancelot Mon Nov 11, 2024 11:06 am

    The Su-57 is the best 5th generation aircraft out there. As simple as that.

    The F-35 has pathetic top speed and anemic internal volume for weapons. Which means if it is to be used for long distance combat they must use it the so called "Beast Mode" where it will light up radar screens like a Christmas tree with external stored weapons.

    The F-22 has obsolete electronics and the same anemic internal volume for weapons.

    The US claimed advantage on stealth is kind of dubious. At least sideways both those US aircraft present a way larger area than the Su-57. At best the US aircraft could have improved stealth from the front and back. But the penalty they pay for this frontal stealth is lower usable internal volume and lower kinematic performance. The Su-57 front and back stealth will also be improved with the AL-51.

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    Post  Arrow Mon Nov 11, 2024 11:16 pm

    The Su-57 is the best 5th generation aircraft out there. As simple as that. The F-35 has pathetic top speed and anemic internal volume for weapons. Which means if it is to be used for long distance combat they must use it the so called "Beast Mode" where it will light up radar screens like a Christmas tree with external stored weapons. wrote:

    You once mentioned that the Su-57 has on-board electronics that are not inferior to the F-35 and are even better. This is often the argument of Western fanboys. How is the F-35 incredibly packed with incredible electronics, radar, etc. This is their last line of defense after hard parameters such as maximum speed, operational range, kinematic capabilities, etc. in favor of the Su-57. I wonder how the Chinese J-20 compares to this. I doubt it could compete with the Su-57.
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    Post  GarryB Tue Nov 12, 2024 6:01 am

    China has enormous talent and enormous potential but making engines is hard and complex and expensive in a wide range of fields... it wasn't an accident that the west was keen to sell engines and aircraft to Russia and the Ukraine and other former soviet states not to mention eastern europe which they essentially banned from working with Russia to continue making planes and engines.

    The west went to a lot of trouble to destroy the Soviet industries in a lot of fields including microelectronics, shipbuilding, aerospace technology, and very much engines...

    A gas station with nukes was an insult from Obama, but it was also the dream of the western elites... you just supply gas and don't make anything for yourself and buy everything you need from us... which they were largely doing till the west couldn't help itself and started sanctions and pressure and coercion to bully them over their former allies like Syria and Serbia and relations with Georgia and Ukraine and Belarus and the various stans including Afghanistan.

    Sanctions have made them independent and made them realise they have to provide essentials for themselves or otherwise the west will try to block their access and use it to hurt them.

    Even France buys its hot section titanium parts for its engines from the US... when Russia was talking about the PD series replacing all foreign engines in use in Russia the French offered to buy the titanium hot parts used in their engines from Russia instead of the US who were clearly over charging them as a sort of incentive to keep using French engines. Of course the sweetener is that French engines are widely used so that is a lot of work and a lot of trade, but the problem is that anything that might benefit Russia would become the subject of sanctions eventually... so they made the right choice in the end... the only choice.

    Sometimes having the best plane does not matter if you don't have enough or you don't have enough pilots or fuel or ammo...

    The west might have lots of planes but how often are their pilots flying and are they pilots because they are not white and not male?

    How long will their airfields last in a real conflict... the west doesn't normally worry too much about defending their airfields because most countries they attack don't have Iskander or Zircon.

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    Post  LMFS Tue Nov 12, 2024 11:20 am

    lancelot wrote:The Su-57 is the best 5th generation aircraft out there. As simple as that.

    It is even worse, Su-57 is the only one which is viable as a weapon. The F-22 was little more than a experiment, but at least it initiated the 5th gen and had (has) great performance, unlike the F-35, which is flawed as a concept and stands out mainly as the biggest military swindle in history. They know their MIC is a black hole of corruption, and still they cannot prevent it from getting bigger and bigger.

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    Post  lancelot Tue Nov 12, 2024 12:13 pm

    Arrow wrote:You once mentioned that the Su-57 has on-board electronics that are not inferior to the F-35 and are even better. This is often the argument of Western fanboys. How is the F-35 incredibly packed with incredible electronics, radar, etc. This is their last line of defense after hard parameters such as maximum speed, operational range, kinematic capabilities, etc. in favor of the Su-57. I wonder how the Chinese J-20 compares to this. I doubt it could compete with the Su-57.
    The electronics of the F-35 will only become competitive with those in the Su-57 with the TR-3 upgrade which they still do not have in service. At the point F-35 TR-3 does come in service fully operational, right now the Block 4 software for it is a non-starter, the Russians will probably have the Su-57M.

    You could argue the F-35 uses more modern engines and it still has a better HMD than the Su-57. It also has EOTS which means it is more suitable for identifying ground targets. But that is about it. It loses everywhere else.

    The pathetic airframe the F-35 uses negates any advantage provided by the engines. The HMD is mostly useful for off-boresight shots, but it is not like you cannot do that with the Su-57 helmet either, not to mention the Su-57's higher agility means pulling off those kinds of shots is easier.

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    Post  Kiko Wed Nov 13, 2024 9:22 am

    U.E.C.- Russian aircraft engines - Page 22 F_c2RlbGFub3VuYXMucnUvdXBsb2Fkcy81LzMvNTMwMTczMTQwNTIwN19vcmlnLmpwZWc_X19pZD0xNjQzOTM=

    The world premiere of the Russian fifth-generation aircraft engine 177S took place in China, 11.13.2024.

    Reduced fuel consumption in all operating modes allows to reduce the operating costs of the 177S engine. In addition, the engine provides increased energy consumption for powering the electronic systems of modern aircraft. The power plant also increases their flight range.

    At the exposition, UEC is also demonstrating to foreign partners for the first time full-size models of the new AL-31FN engines of the fifth series and SM-100. In their creation, technologies and materials typical for fifth-generation engines are used.

    The SM-100 engine has been developed in the size of the AI-225-25 and at the same time has a lower weight, as well as a thrust increased by a third - up to 3300 kgf. New design solutions allow to significantly increase the engine service life while reducing the thrust requirements, which reduces operating costs. Moreover, a modification for high-altitude unmanned aerial vehicles can be created on the basis of the SM-100 engine.

    Serial engines of the AL-31F/FN/FP family for multi-role fighters have received a modernized appearance — series 5. The new modification of the AL-31FN engine, which was first presented by UEC, was developed specifically for single-engine aircraft and has increased reliability. The use of the engine will expand the potential of aircraft in terms of flight range and altitude. This is ensured by increased thrust of up to 14 thousand kgf in takeoff mode and fuel consumption reduced by 6%.

    When creating modern engines, UEC designers use the latest technologies and materials, and most importantly, new approaches, said UEC CEO Alexander Grachev.

    "The engines presented in China can be classified as fifth generation in many characteristics. Moreover, breakthrough design solutions allow them to be optimized to customer requirements and expand the range of options. The undoubted advantage of the new Russian engines is the ability to upgrade previous generation engines to the most modern version during a major overhaul. At the same time, their service life or thrust can be increased."

    At the exhibition, UEC is showing a full-size model of the new VK-1600 V engine for medium helicopters and the TV7-117ST-01 turboprop for regional aircraft. A hybrid-electric power plant based on the new VK-650 V aircraft engine is also on display. The Russian engine-building corporation is also displaying a modernized RD-93MA turbojet with improved performance characteristics: thrust has been increased by 400 kgf, and the designated service life has been increased by a third.

    In addition, for the first time abroad, a full-size fan blade for the PD-35 engine made of polymer composite materials was presented.

    The composite blade weighs 30% less than one made of titanium. UEC designers developed the first Russian technology demonstrator engine PD-35 and used the latest technologies and materials in its creation. During testing, it confirmed stable operation when reaching the design thrust of 35 tons.

    The International Aviation and Space Exhibition Airshow China 2024 will be held in Zhuhai from November 12 to 17, 2024. The exhibition will feature 890 companies from 47 countries.

    https://sdelanounas.ru/blogs/164393/

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    Post  George1 Thu Nov 14, 2024 9:10 pm

    Russia expands production of VK-2500 helicopter engines

    https://tass.com/society/1870573

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    Post  Big_Gazza Fri Nov 15, 2024 10:08 am

    More photos of the 177C engine on display at Zhuhai

    U.E.C.- Russian aircraft engines - Page 22 177s_z11

    U.E.C.- Russian aircraft engines - Page 22 177s_z12

    U.E.C.- Russian aircraft engines - Page 22 177s_z10

    https://sdelanounas.ru/blogs/164455/

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    Post  william.boutros Tue Nov 19, 2024 2:16 pm

    Big_Gazza wrote:More photos of the 177C engine on display at Zhuhai

    U.E.C.- Russian aircraft engines - Page 22 177s_z11

    U.E.C.- Russian aircraft engines - Page 22 177s_z12

    U.E.C.- Russian aircraft engines - Page 22 177s_z10

    https://sdelanounas.ru/blogs/164455/

    Any news on when it will be fielded?

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    Post  Kiko Thu Nov 28, 2024 2:21 pm

    Composite material for PD-35 engine fan blades is a breakthrough in the field of polymers, 11.28.2024.

    In 2020, the United Engine Corporation (UEC), together with specialized research institutes, completed the development and manufactured the first prototypes of composite fan blades for the PD-35 engine. The first stage of testing of the PD-35 fan blade demonstrator took place on June 27, 2020, in Perm as part of the PD-14 engine. At the next Airshow China in Zhuhai in November 2024, the PD-35 composite fan blades were demonstrated to specialists and visitors to the exhibition.

    The use of a fan blade made of composites instead of a hollow titanium one is justified by the need to reduce the engine weight. The use of polymer composite materials (PCM) will reduce the fan weight by 30% compared to a similar product with hollow blades, which on a large engine like the PD-35 will give a noticeable effect in the form of reducing the weight of the entire power plant. UEC believes that the material from which the PD-35 fan blades will be made has become a breakthrough in the field of PCM.

    "An example of today's breakthrough in the field of polymer materials for our engine building is the creation of the polymer blade of the PD-35 fan. Without this technology, it would be impossible to create a high-thrust engine, because this is a key position. The next stage in the development of this technology will already be thermoplastic polymers, and this is a huge layer of work that we need to overcome - to create a production technology,"toldDeputy General Director of JSC United Engine Corporation Mikhail Bakradze at the plenary session of the IV Congress of Young Scientists.

    According to him, new materials are necessary for the transition to new types of engines. At the end of the 20th century, thanks to the development of a multi-component alloy of approximately 20 technical components, it was possible to create the fourth-generation PS-90A engine. Now, UEC has already created and continues to work on engines and engine components that meet the characteristics of the fifth generation. "The development of polymers and composites with even higher characteristics will ensure the transition to sixth-generation engines in the foreseeable future," Mikhail Bakradze noted in his speech.

    "It would be impossible to achieve a fundamentally new level of development of technologies and materials in our engine industry without an advanced scientific and technical reserve. Therefore, the next generations of engines should certainly be more non-metallic. Therefore, at the turn of 2035, the share of such materials in an aircraft engine should be approximately 30 percent against today's current 10," Bakradze said. At the same time, he emphasized that even with the availability of technical and scientific reserve, the experimental design work alone in creating a new engine takes from seven to ten years.

    November 2, 2024, it became known, that the PD-35 demonstrator engine passed the first stage of testing on a new open stand. During the tests, it repeatedly reached takeoff mode with a thrust of 35 tons. The obtained parameters and characteristics were higher than the predicted values ​​and confirmed the correctness of the technical solutions chosen by the designers.

    https://aviation21.ru/kompozitnyj-material-dlya-lopatok-ventilyatora-dvigatelya-pd-35-yavlyaetsya-proryvom-v-oblasti-polimerov/

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    Post  TMA1 Thu Nov 28, 2024 4:45 pm

    I heard that a model on display of the nearly complete RD-93MA was at this airshow. Issue is i never saw an image I'd it. Same with sm100.
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    Post  Big_Gazza Fri Nov 29, 2024 4:37 am

    Kiko wrote:Composite material for PD-35 engine fan blades is a breakthrough in the field of polymers, 11.28.2024.

    They must mean fan blades on the cold side, ie compressor stages. I cannot imagine any composite blade surviving on the hot side.

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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic Fri Nov 29, 2024 9:18 am

    Fan blades means the large blades in the fan at the front of the engine.

    https://d2n4wb9orp1vta.cloudfront.net/cms/0915CW_MarketOut_drawingpg40.jpg

    U.E.C.- Russian aircraft engines - Page 22 0915CW_MarketOut_drawingpg40

    The problem is not the temperature which is low there, (unless you go supersonic) but the fact that they have to resist to foreign object damage (including bird strike) and that metal blades are much better in that.

    If I am not mistaken, the first company which studied the composite fan blades was Rolls-Royce in the 1970s, but at that time could not pass the bird strike tests. GE has been using composite fan blades since the 1990s and recently Rolls-Royce used them in a demonstrator engine.

    Apparently both companies now have solved the bird strike issue, so even if metal still offers some advantages, the fan blades in composite are lighter, so they allow a considerable weight reduction (lighter blades and thus also the fan disc can be made much lighter).

    The fan disc is still in some titanium alloys but if the blades are lighter it can be lighter as well since it will be subjected to lower loads.

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