Russia Defence Forum

Would you like to react to this message? Create an account in a few clicks or log in to continue.

Military Forum for Russian and Global Defence Issues


    Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2

    flamming_python
    flamming_python

    Posts : 3912
    Points : 3998
    Join date : 2012-01-30

    Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2 - Page 30 Empty Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2

    Post  flamming_python on Sun Dec 15, 2019 11:34 pm

    GarryB wrote:A knee jerk reaction that is totally stupid and futile... tell a guy who beats his wife to stop beating her... that will work just fine too.

    How about we get rid of this stupid Stalin mentality of just firing people without even looking in to what actually went wrong... there is a western saying... don't throw the baby out with its bath water...

    Firing the management for something at this level... well why not just fire Putin... wouldn't that fix everything... I mean all these fires and problems didn't happen in one shipyard or even in one fleet, so by firing Putin you solve all the problems... who cares that he is good at his job and gets the job done... who cares if you then have to find replacements for the people you are talking about firing who were not good enough to get the job before... but maybe their realisation that they could be fired if anything bad happens will scare them in to being better perhaps.


    Nah... just fire everybody because when you are doing a job on one floor the first thing you do is check the ten levels above and below where you are working to make sure there wont be any problems.

    Clearly procedures were either not followed or need to be improved... firing every other worker in the place is not going to change that.

    Of course you have to fire them... I mean they must be empty people to not notice a couple of people they were working with are now dead... there is no way you want such people on the payroll I mean they will just continue to ignore safety regulations... why wouldn't they... they survived didn't they?

    I thought Russians would learn something... Putin has pretty much managed a turnaround comparable to Stalin but without the brutality and fear, but something bad happens and you flick back to the old ways... but then even Stalin didn't decimate his own troops... that is what the nazis and the romans did.

    Well Stalin did manage to turn a backward agricultural society which had imported most of its ships, weapons and industrial machinery from Britain and France - into nuclear superpower status in 30 years. Some accuse him of orchestrating a mass famine. Yet it was under him that the 5-year regular famines of Russia in which millions died every time became a thing of the past, instead you had 5-year plans that modernized the country. He did know a thing or two about management.. and when said management needed to be replaced. Out with the old, in with the new.

    But I digress. There are really 2 extremes. One is Stalin, but the other one is doing nothing. So take the middle route, create a little bit of terror, get some heads rolling, fire some people, launch investigations against a few. Make sure the rest of the country gets the message. This won't be tolerated. It's one thing when it's just equipment damage, it's another when several people lose their lives over it - no doubt 18-20 year old conscripts who were just doing their duty and waiting to return home to their families. What's even a large number of criminal investigations and firings over complacency compared to that? The guilty will serve their time, the complacent will find other jobs; they'll live at least.

    As for firing Putin. Well you know he does bear a responsibility as well. He is overly loyal to his friends.. and everyone at the highest level of power is his friend. This is also something that differentiates him from Stalin, but to Russia's detriment this time. He doesn't take stern enough measures against incompetence. And he doesn't predict things ahead of time; I think it was Vann7 or someone else here who pointed that out. He only reacts after the damage has been done. Munition dump fires, forest fires, shipyard fires, shopping mall fires; how many of them are needed to convince the president that there's a problem here? And if he was smart, he would have realized there was a problem before all of them had broken out. He's been in power effectively since 1999; he could have used the early 2000s, riddled with corruption and competing power clans as they were - to do something about fire codes, safety standards, malpractices and obsolete firefighting equipment. Anyone who worked in any of these sectors could have told him there was a problem. But no, he would rather rely on his friends at the top of the power food chain to tell him that everything is just peachy.

    Tsavo Lion wrote:
    The bottom line: getting rid of the Adm. K is unthinkable.

    So make it un-unthinkable.

    Get started on a project, 1 carrier for the time being. Take all the money earmarked for Kuznetsov repairs and upgrades and put it towards that.

    This will give the Russian Navy something to look forward to.
    Tsavo Lion
    Tsavo Lion

    Posts : 4178
    Points : 4174
    Join date : 2016-08-15
    Location : AZ, USA

    Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2 - Page 30 Empty Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Mon Dec 16, 2019 12:06 am

    Get started on a project, 1 carrier for the time being. Take all the money earmarked for Kuznetsov repairs and upgrades and put it towards that.
    it won't be enough to pay for it; other more pressing projects will be delayed; they need more new FFGs & DDGs anyway to escort a CVN.
    Even if the Adm. K never leaves the Barents Sea again, it'll still be useful for all kinds of naval training.
    Big_Gazza
    Big_Gazza

    Posts : 2008
    Points : 2010
    Join date : 2014-08-25
    Location : Melbourne, Australia

    Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2 - Page 30 Empty Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2

    Post  Big_Gazza on Mon Dec 16, 2019 1:36 am

    It really doesn't take much for the congentital Kuznetsov-haters to come boiling out of the woodwork...  What a bunch of triggered little sissies...

    So the K had issues with her boilers?  Big deal.  They will be fixed as part of her upgrade.

    So the K had issues with landing arrestors in Syria? Big deal.  They will be fixed too.

    So the PD-50 sank because of the incompetence of shipyard management? Big deal.  A few years of delay won't change anything.

    So a bunch of idiot welders set fire to a pile of rubbish that some idiots left in the bottom of a shaft?  Big deal.  There is plenty of time to fix the damage, and maybe this will be straw that broke the back of shipyard management complacency and piss-poor safety culture (blame starts at the top, regardless of how many stoopid gopniks were holding a welding torch).

    Maybe next the K-haters will repeat the nonsense about a lack of functioning toilets...  

    There is nothing fundamentally wrong with the Kuznetsov that a little money and effort cannot fix.  Russian naval aviations problems are not due to the Kuznetsov herself but the broader issue of a general lack of fixed-wing carrier aviation operations.  Its not their hardware, or aircraft, or weapons, or the K as a vessel. It's a lack of operational experience, the general lack of deployments, and the low priority given to carrier operations.  Until Russia rebuilds a decent blue-water force, the K doesn't really have a mission (plus Russia doesn't tend to embroil herself in simmering conflicts around the globe, or maintain a global hegemony that requires regular gunboat visits to keep the indentured vassal states in line and compliant). That said, Russia still needs to retain a core naval aviation capability, even if its mainly as a minimum foundation on which to build future capabilities.

    Do people really think that Russia should spend $10B and 10 years and build a new carrier?  Then what?  What will this new carrier do that a revitalised Kuznetsov won't?

    Russia needs to keep to her current path.  Build a world-class submarine force with world-beating tech (the Yanks are seriously worried about the Yasen-Ms and how dangerous they will make USN North Atlantic ops) and develop hypersonics and heavy UUVs to neutralise USN flat-tops.  Rebuild the blue-water capability starting with modernisations of those ex-Soviet destroyers that are in good condition and begin serial builds of new ships now that domestic MGTs are becoming available and the new sensors, weapons and battle management systems pioneered by the 22350s have been integrated and proved.  

    Once that is proceeding, only then should Russia think about an expansion of naval aviation, but their plans must take into account new technolgies on the Seppostani side.  If Russia can neutralise USN flaptops in peer conflicts, so to can the US develop the tech to neutralise future Russian carriers.  Carriers are going to be near-useless in any future peer conflicts, so their value will lie in conflicts with minor powers and developing nations (as the US has always used its carrier forces).  In this case, how much priority/resources should be assigned to these sorts of capabilities/operations?  Syria-esque operations won't be common and while flying the flag is a legitimate task, a small force of supersonic bombers (or stealthy flying wings) armed with Zircons sends just as clear a message, for a fraction of the cost and a far quicker response time.

    So yep, stop bagging the K, and quit yer puerile pre-pubescent school-girlish whining.  Ignore Seppostani propganda and the fake outrage of 5th columnist sock puppets.  What the HATOistas want is of no concern to Russia, and their endless BS should simply be laughed at and treated with the contempt it deserves.
    flamming_python
    flamming_python

    Posts : 3912
    Points : 3998
    Join date : 2012-01-30

    Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2 - Page 30 Empty Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2

    Post  flamming_python on Mon Dec 16, 2019 1:39 am

    Tsavo Lion wrote:
    Get started on a project, 1 carrier for the time being. Take all the money earmarked for Kuznetsov repairs and upgrades and put it towards that.
    it won't be enough to pay for it; other more pressing projects will be delayed; they need more new FFGs & DDGs anyway to escort a CVN.
    Even if the Adm. K never leaves the Barents Sea again, it'll still be useful for all kinds of naval training.

    That doesn't make sense

    They have enough to escort the Kuznetsov, so why not a new carrier?

    Creating a new nuclear-powered carrier at the Zvezda shipyards within the next 5-6 years and sending the Kuzya to the scrap-heap will allow them to replace the Kuznetsov in the training role, and also allow it to actually be used for operations. Because the Kuznetsov is not operational and hasn't been the fall of the USSR. In the 90s they had some accident or other where the missile tubes were flooded and became non-operational for years; I don't even know if they ever fixed that but it's irrelevant at this point. It's one real mission where it deployed to Syria - it was there for all of several weeks; where it lost one aircraft to the arresting hooks breaking, and another one to pilot error or something similar.

    The new carrier can be used as a test-bed for several new technologies, and they can learn from it operationally which is not possible with the Kuznetsov. So that in 10 years time they can get started on a series of another 2 or so aircraft carriers, with further improvements and revamps.

    It need not be a huge carrier either. Something like in the Kuznetsov's ballpark or smaller; so that they don't have to spend as much money or time for a potentially risky project. The larger ones can wait.

    Of course the alternative is to keep working on the Kuznetsov, repair everything, replace its boilers, finish modernization, and hope that nothing else blows up that could delay things. Keeping in mind the trouble with the floating dock and now the shipyard, that itself can take years, and you'll be left with yesterday's carrier with yesterday's propulsion system and a history of failure. And until then you won't be conducting much training on it so that argument doesn't hold up either.
    Better to suspend all work, retire it from service completely, reassign all sailors to other ships where they are needed, and save money that way too, or possibly immediately scrap it for some more money - and all that will be put towards a new carrier.
    They'll still need to divert extra funds of course.
    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 25363
    Points : 25909
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2 - Page 30 Empty Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2

    Post  GarryB on Mon Dec 16, 2019 2:57 am

    Well Stalin did manage to turn a backward agricultural society which had imported most of its ships, weapons and industrial machinery from Britain and France - into nuclear superpower status in 30 years.

    Impressive until you look at how he did it and all the paranoia and BS, but then that wasn't him alone, there were plenty of figures that not only didn't try to stop him... but actually made it worse...

    Some accuse him of orchestrating a mass famine. Yet it was under him that the 5-year regular famines of Russia in which millions died every time became a thing of the past, instead you had 5-year plans that modernized the country. He did know a thing or two about management.. and when said management needed to be replaced. Out with the old, in with the new.

    Any expert in the west will tell you he was the root of all evil and everything bad that happened before during and after him was all his fault... but that says more about the expertise of western experts than anything else.


    But I digress. There are really 2 extremes. One is Stalin, but the other one is doing nothing. So take the middle route, create a little bit of terror, get some heads rolling, fire some people, launch investigations against a few. Make sure the rest of the country gets the message. This won't be tolerated.

    First of all there are more than three options...

    The option you are suggesting is the Stalin one... rolling heads for position rather than responsibility... one person can't change the US but it seems one person or several people were supposed to fix everything in Russia and for their failure they need to be fired... before any investigation into what actually happened.

    Amusing you think investigations are to be punitive rather than fact finding... you have already decided what has happened and you have the solution all ready... except the solution wont change anything either.

    It's one thing when it's just equipment damage, it's another when several people lose their lives over it - no doubt 18-20 year old conscripts who were just doing their duty and waiting to return home to their families. What's even a large number of criminal investigations and firings over complacency compared to that? The guilty will serve their time, the complacent will find other jobs; they'll live at least.

    All mistakes to be punished immediately and without even looking in to it... great... I want a better job so I will place rags and oil and fuelstuffs a floor beneath where they will be wielding tomorrow... some people will die and lots will get fired and I will have a chance to move up the ladder... when the fires stop they will think I am doing a good job and the problem is fixed... fucking idiots...

    [quote[As for firing Putin. Well you know he does bear a responsibility as well. He is overly loyal to his friends.. and everyone at the highest level of power is his friend.[/quote]

    Doesn't that depend on the quality of his friends, and whether they are competent in their jobs or just there because they are friends with Putin... I have no idea, but I suspect if they were incompetent they would not remain friends for very long... especially if there is evidence of criminal activity...

    This is also something that differentiates him from Stalin, but to Russia's detriment this time. He doesn't take stern enough measures against incompetence. And he doesn't predict things ahead of time; I think it was Vann7 or someone else here who pointed that out. He only reacts after the damage has been done.

    Hilarious... of course it is his fault... he needs to analyse every procedure and every rule and every industry and identify problems and make changes... I mean if he has time to meddle in elections all around the western world surely he knows some dumb fuck in some backwater has not paid attention to all the brush and plant growth near his buildings... but when a fire starts there are no fire engines to deal with the problem... I mean just because the guy in charge there said several times there was a problem and everyone ignored him and the local rich censored took the only local fire engine to protect his mansion instead of a helicopter repair plant for the Navy... yeah... Putins fault... but I get the sense you don't want to fire him... just give him a telling off that he is not the omnipotent being the west suggests he is. ...bastard.

    Munition dump fires, forest fires, shipyard fires, shopping mall fires; how many of them are needed to convince the president that there's a problem here?

    All different problems in different places... or are you suggesting he ban fire?

    And if he was smart, he would have realized there was a problem before all of them had broken out.

    Of course.... he could have been to all those places with a wet towel and damped those flames out before they did any real damage... not just telepathic and fortune teller... now also with a cape and in a suit with a big S on the front...

    He's been in power effectively since 1999; he could have used the early 2000s, riddled with corruption and competing power clans as they were - to do something about fire codes, safety standards, malpractices and obsolete firefighting equipment. Anyone who worked in any of these sectors could have told him there was a problem. But no, he would rather rely on his friends at the top of the power food chain to tell him that everything is just peachy.

    So what you are saying is that there is no change in fire codes or safety standards or fire fighting equipment in the last 20 years... really?

    Sounds like a Vann like over reaction to me... you are upset and you want someone to blame... but the real funny thing is that you are not interested in finding out what actually happened... PERHAPS THAT IS THE CULTURAL THING THAT RUSSIA NEEDS TO CHANGE, because if the reaction is always the same then covering your ass and keeping your mouth shut will be standard procedure wont it?

    So make it un-unthinkable.

    Get started on a project, 1 carrier for the time being. Take all the money earmarked for Kuznetsov repairs and upgrades and put it towards that.

    This will give the Russian Navy something to look forward to.

    It is the dumbest thing they could possibly do to discard an almost complete aircraft carrier for the promise of perhaps one in 6-8 years time.

    They have said they will lay down a new carrier in 2030 or there abouts... that is what all their plans are optimised for no doubt, so completely changing them to push forward a new CVN means pushing forward a lot of other programmes that will cost rather more than just one CVN... we are talking 10s of billions of dollars on all the other things that need to be ready or put in place to operate a new CVN... when they already have a carrier they can use right now.

    It is not a super carrier... if they only use it for flight practise with MiGs and Sukhois, and also for planning and practising during exercises then they will be getting their moneys worth from the K... if they scrap her now you multiply all the costs and take away any usefulness you might have gotten from using her...

    Sorry mate... normally I respect your opinion but in this case I am thinking of asking Vlad to check your IP to see that Vann hasn't hacked your account...

    Do people really think that Russia should spend $10B and 10 years and build a new carrier? Then what? What will this new carrier do that a revitalised Kuznetsov won't?

    Exactly... if they can't get it right with the K then there is no point in spending any money on a bigger more expensive and more complicated CVN... they will end up with a Ford class carrier that can't do anything... the propulsion will be all new, the EMALS will be all new, the electronics will be new for a ship of this size... by 2030 they will likely have all new aircraft too... so much potential for a fuck up... so do you think a good idea is to move it up 5 years and start making it right now without the damn design even likely finalised yet?
    Tsavo Lion
    Tsavo Lion

    Posts : 4178
    Points : 4174
    Join date : 2016-08-15
    Location : AZ, USA

    Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2 - Page 30 Empty Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Mon Dec 16, 2019 3:00 am

    flamming_python wrote:The new carrier can be used as a test-bed for several new technologies, and they can learn from it operationally which is not possible with the Kuznetsov. ..
    Of course the alternative is to ..replace its boilers,..
    New gear can be installed & tested, just like the PLAN did on its CV-16.
    New boilers been installed a few months ago & by all indications, they weren't affected by the fire.
    The NITKA Ground Aviation Training and Research Complex is modelled on the Kuznetsov aircraft carrier. It includes a mock-up deck and take-off ramp. The 'deck' is fully moveable and designed to replicate the movement of the waves during a take-off or landing while at sea.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-cKRadlm0I

    Naval pilots can also be sent to train on the CV-16/17 year round while the Adm. K is non-deployable.
    What u r proposing doesn't make sense in the Russian reality context.
    It's better to perfect operating an older CV/TAKR before building & operating a new 1 that may not only inherit & repeat past mistakes & shortcomings, but add many new problems.
    flamming_python
    flamming_python

    Posts : 3912
    Points : 3998
    Join date : 2012-01-30

    Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2 - Page 30 Empty Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2

    Post  flamming_python on Mon Dec 16, 2019 11:29 am

    GarryB wrote:Impressive until you look at how he did it and all the paranoia and BS, but then that wasn't him alone, there were plenty of figures that not only didn't try to stop him... but actually made it worse...

    Of course. But he still knew a thing or two about management.

    I guess if you take away the firing squads, forced labour under atrocious conditions, totalitarian control over society, purging of everyone who constituted a potential rival or didn't align closely enough to him - his methods and general approach would still be pretty effective today. There was rather more to them that just those things; and where a couple of those things might be neccessary, they can be replaced today with something more humane but still punishing enough.

    Any expert in the west will tell you he was the root of all evil and everything bad that happened before during and after him was all his fault... but that says more about the expertise of western experts than anything else.

    Western experts will tell you that it was due to his decisions and purge of the army that the Red Army lost 90% of its 20,000-strong tank force within the opening months of the war, as well as almost the entire airforce.

    And while there may be truth in that, a more serious expert will tell you that if it wasn't for Stalin's mass-industrialization of Russia and the Ukraine during the 30s, when it reached GDP growth rates of some 15% and started to produce its own equipment and weapon designs adapted for its own conditions, rather than importing everything from Europe as the Russian Empire had done - then the USSR wouldn't have had even 1/10th of those 20,000 tanks to lose in the first place against Germany, when the later inevitably invaded.

    The option you are suggesting is the Stalin one... rolling heads for position rather than responsibility... one person can't change the US but it seems one person or several people were supposed to fix everything in Russia and for their failure they need to be fired... before any investigation into what actually happened.

    But it is responsibility. We in Russia, having come out of a worker's state not too long ago - have a natural disdain for managers. In the Soviet era, you had bosses and you had managers; but they weren't even allowed to fire you from your job, without very good reason. And they were always experienced technical specialists and former workers themselves; they didn't come out of some management degree at university like they do now.
    Nowadays though, they get twice the pay of the common people - and seemingly all power in their hands. So then they should have the responsibility that comes with it too, else who the fk needs them? What, to provide motivational speeches and check that everyone is coming to work on time? No, then as well as now, they are to play a senior technical supervisory role, especially in industrial enterprises, and they answer for the practices or lack thereof of the people under their charge. It is their job to find problems with personnel ahead of time and take corrective measures, and their job to make sure standards are being followed. The managers above them, the ones sitting in the offices and directing business operations - their job is to select the technical and shift managers for competency, have enough knowledge to determine what makes a good one, and supervise them in turn, make surprise inspections of the work premises and so on.

    If there is a clear failure that leads to deaths and hundreds of millions of dollars worth of damage, then its clear that the whole chain isn't working as intended. If it was, that hypothetical psycho with oil and rags who started the fire wouldn't have been hired, or would have been forced to answer for his suspicious practices by a diligent co-worker or his shift-manager, before the damage was done. And even if he had succeeded, there surely wouldn't have been a complacent bufoon who had placed all the sawdust or whatever in a compartment right below the welding work being done, that turned what could have been a minor incident into a major disaster. Even then, the automated fire retardation systems would have sprung into action. But whoops, someone decided to remove or deactivate them so then wouldn't get in the way; someone gave that order and the workers did it without questioning its wisdom. See where I'm going with this?

    Amusing you think investigations are to be punitive rather than fact finding... you have already decided what has happened and you have the solution all ready... except the solution wont change anything either.

    By all means they should find the facts too. Find the facts so practices can be improved. And so that the guilty can be identified.
    And then shake up the whole place and other places too, because in fact everyone is a little guilty when it comes to something like this. The faults are on many levels.

    Doesn't that depend on the quality of his friends, and whether they are competent in their jobs or just there because they are friends with Putin... I have no idea, but I suspect if they were incompetent they would not remain friends for very long... especially if there is evidence of criminal activity...

    Of course it does, and his responsibility is to check their quality. He does do replacements - but clearly something isn't working.

    Hilarious... of course it is his fault... he needs to analyse every procedure and every rule and every industry and identify problems and make changes... I mean if he has time to meddle in elections all around the western world surely he knows some dumb fuck in some backwater has not paid attention to all the brush and plant growth near his buildings... but when a fire starts there are no fire engines to deal with the problem... I mean just because the guy in charge there said several times there was a problem and everyone ignored him and the local rich censored  took the only local fire engine to protect his mansion instead of a helicopter repair plant for the Navy... yeah... Putins fault... but I get the sense you don't want to fire him... just give him a telling off that he is not the omnipotent being the west suggests he is.   ...bastard.

    Well ordinarily no, that's the power of delegation. And decentralization.
    But he himself centralized the system (a neccessity back then) and has hardly decentralized it since. He prefers to parade around and visit factories, make a big show of solving every problem on TV, even grants kids their New Year's wishes sometimes. He's like Santa Claus and Jesus rolled into one.
    So fine, if that's the role he wants, then fulfil it. Analyse every procedure and every rule and every industry and identify problems and make changes, and find the right people to make those changes. Like Stalin did, albeit not without a **fair bit** of collatoral damage. When Stalin died, they went into his library and found 5000 books there... most of which were annotated with his own notes and thoughts on various passages and thesis contained. Stalin was a very learned man, far from the unremarkable gangster persona that he adopted to play and backstab his way to the top of the heirarchy, and how he is continued to be portrayed to this day by the History Channel and other Western media. Putin is highly intelligent too, and spends all his time working, seems to know a fair amount about everything. Yet if comparing him to Stalin, there are definately things he has done better - mostly in terms of solving problems and resurrecting, developing the country using far more humane means, but also plenty of areas where he has been too laid back and not active enough.

    Else, if he doesn't want to do that, then he can reform Russia's system into something a bit more manageble, when he and his top-level ministers aren't the only ones who make all the decisions and thus aren't the only ones that can answer for them.

    All different problems in different places... or are you suggesting he ban fire?

    Exactly. Ban fire. Not with words but with measures.
    Russia has managed the seemingly impossible before, it can manage this.

    Look at how the military has been transformed over the past 10 years.
    Why has there been no such effort for emergency services and industrial practices? Nevermind healthcare, education, etc... which have at best only improved slowly and incrementally.

    Of course.... he could have been to all those places with a wet towel and damped those flames out before they did any real damage... not just telepathic and fortune teller... now also with a cape and in a suit with a big S on the front...

    Again, that's what he himself is presented as, in the media that is under the control of the Russian state.

    Of course in pratice there is some decentralization in Russia, local decisions, governors, mayors, heads of industrial corporations, lower level ministers and so on. But something isn't working and when it isn't, it's always up to Putin to go there, fire someone, solve the problem. The system should be changed, it's all built around the idea of reaction, PR and finding scapegoats, not putting the right people in the right place to identify problems ahead of time.

    But so you understand, I'm not arguing here in favour of finding scapegoats for the fire. Rather, the opposite. Make everyone answer for everyone else; it's a team sport and either everyone wins together or they lose alone. And if this approach works then adopt it for other sectors.

    So what you are saying is that there is no change in fire codes or safety standards or fire fighting equipment in the last 20 years... really?

    There surely has been, in fact I know there has been, after a spate of mass fires. But clearly this incident as well as the forest fires this summer has shown that it's not enough. They may have reacted to the problems and failings that were visible. They probably decided to ignore the stuff that hasn't caught on fire just yet though.

    Sounds like a Vann like over reaction to me... you are upset and you want someone to blame... but the real funny thing is that you are not interested in finding out what actually happened... PERHAPS THAT IS THE CULTURAL THING THAT RUSSIA NEEDS TO CHANGE, because if the reaction is always the same then covering your ass and keeping your mouth shut will be standard procedure wont it?

    Culture is a consenquence of material conditions. When you have had a corrupt or incompetent system in the 90s-2000s, and really since the 80s, and only now it's getting better, bit by bit - it has had enough time anyway to seep into everyone's skin and make everyone think that this way of doing things is normal.

    But it's not normal, and the only way to change this culture is to change the conditions and system that underpin it. Shaking things up would be a good start, then finding some more competent people, then decentralizing things a bit.

    It is the dumbest thing they could possibly do to discard an almost complete aircraft carrier for the promise of perhaps one in 6-8 years time.

    They have said they will lay down a new carrier in 2030 or there abouts... that is what all their plans are optimised for no doubt, so completely changing them to push forward a new CVN means pushing forward a lot of other programmes that will cost rather more than just one CVN... we are talking 10s of billions of dollars on all the other things that need to be ready or put in place to operate a new CVN... when they already have a carrier they can use right now.

    It is not a super carrier... if they only use it for flight practise with MiGs and Sukhois, and also for planning and practising during exercises then they will be getting their moneys worth from the K... if they scrap her now you multiply all the costs and take away any usefulness you might have gotten from using her...

    Sorry mate... normally I respect your opinion but in this case I am thinking of asking Vlad to check your IP to see that Vann hasn't hacked your account...

    I don't have the strongest opinion on it, so I won't argue it vehemently.

    But if the Kuznetsov was previously slated for a 2022 completion date, which may now be moved back by another year at least - then we're already looking at over 3 years and several hundred million dollars just to bring it back to order. And then you'll have it back, a still problematic ship, with probably not more than 15 years left in it anyway, that Russia is dependent on until further notice.

    If we have the option of building a new one within 6 years and a 3 billion dollar budget, then it begins to looks like a viable idea, especially as some of that 3 billion we can raise by removing the Kuznetsov from service along with all its associated operation costs, and scrapping it. The carrier airwing and infastructure we can reuse, no need to raise a new one.

    Of course if it takes more than 6 years, or much more than 3 billion dollars, or a whole reshuffling of schedules and delays across the board due to no spare capacity, or no ready design and so on - then I agree, it's not worth it. It all depends.

    Exactly... if they can't get it right with the K then there is no point in spending any money on a bigger more expensive and more complicated CVN... they will end up with a Ford class carrier that can't do anything... the propulsion will be all new, the EMALS will be all new, the electronics will be new for a ship of this size... by 2030 they will likely have all new aircraft too... so much potential for a fuck up... so do you think a good idea is to move it up 5 years and start making it right now without the damn design even likely finalised yet?

    That's a good argument, but then on the Kuznetsov they're not trying out revolutionary new technologies and can't anyway. They neeeeeed it, remember?


    Last edited by flamming_python on Mon Dec 16, 2019 2:28 pm; edited 2 times in total
    avatar
    hoom

    Posts : 2108
    Points : 2098
    Join date : 2016-05-06

    Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2 - Page 30 Empty Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2

    Post  hoom on Mon Dec 16, 2019 12:04 pm

    Where exactly did the fire start? I mean which deck and which area?
    There aren't any deck plans that I've seen but I read it as being a fire in an auxiliary generator room.
    Number 1 may not be a priority/size rank but numbered sequentially bow to stern.
    Tsavo Lion
    Tsavo Lion

    Posts : 4178
    Points : 4174
    Join date : 2016-08-15
    Location : AZ, USA

    Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2 - Page 30 Empty Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Mon Dec 16, 2019 4:24 pm

    And then you'll have it back, a still problematic ship, with probably not more than 15 years left in it anyway,..
    IMO, at least 20, if not more. It'll depend on how they use & maintain it. If it goes to the BSF & occasionally to the Med. Sea from there, keeping it for 30 more years would be possible & useful, even after new CVNs r inducted. It takes 2-3 years to make them fully combat ready & they too must go into yards for repairs/refits.
    Isos
    Isos

    Posts : 5814
    Points : 5806
    Join date : 2015-11-06

    Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2 - Page 30 Empty Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2

    Post  Isos on Mon Dec 16, 2019 4:57 pm

    Tsavo Lion wrote:
    And then you'll have it back, a still problematic ship, with probably not more than 15 years left in it anyway,..
    IMO, at least 20, if not more. It'll depend on how they use & maintain it. If it goes to the BSF & occasionally to the Med. Sea from there, keeping it for 30 more years would be possible & useful, even after new CVNs r inducted. It takes 2-3 years to make them fully combat ready & they too must go into yards for repairs/refits.

    We saw the state of that ship when they removed the boilers to change them with new ones... and they didn't change all of them which suggests they won't keep them that long. Without forgeting that the arresting wires broke in a deployement mission and most of the su33 missions in Syria were done from Hmeimim.

    The navy has no interest in that ship. They need to start a new modern carrier ASAP and get ride of that costly training facility.

    If China and specially India can make a homemade carrier and produce 2 or 3, its well within Russian capacity to make its own one.
    Tsavo Lion
    Tsavo Lion

    Posts : 4178
    Points : 4174
    Join date : 2016-08-15
    Location : AZ, USA

    Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2 - Page 30 Empty Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Mon Dec 16, 2019 6:25 pm

    We saw the state of that ship when they removed the boilers to change them with new ones... and they didn't change all of them which suggests they won't keep them that long.
    They got all 8 new boilers installed when it was in the now sunken dock: http://mil.today/2018/Navy14/
    https://handofmoscow.com/2018/09/05/the-admiral-kuznetsov-was-replaced-by-the-ukrainian-boilers/
    The navy has no interest in that ship.
    even if true, they don't hold the purse strings.
    If China and specially India can make a homemade carrier and produce 2 or 3, its well within Russian capacity to make its own one.
    not before 1 is ordered for export- w/o the extra $, they can't afford to spend $ & time on it at this time. In any case, Russia doesn't have any islands in the SC Sea or other overseas possessions elsewhere to protect/take with a CBG.
    ..today's Russian realities impose a lot of “but” on the dreams of a new aircraft carrier for the Russian fleet. Firstly, even if the decision to build an aircraft carrier had been made, most likely, its construction, instead of strengthening the combat capabilities of the fleet, would have the opposite effect. At the moment, both the Russian Navy and the shipbuilding industry are experiencing a protracted crisis, and the situation with the renewal of the ship’s composition, especially large warships, is extremely depressing. Without solving these problems, the construction of a new aircraft carrier loses its meaning.
    Theoretically, Russia now has the opportunity to build an aircraft carrier, but the construction of such a ship requires enormous costs. In addition to enormous financial costs, the construction of an aircraft carrier can take a significant part of the production and personnel resources of the Russian shipbuilding industry, which will have an extremely negative impact on other ships and submarines. ..
    Ideally, the Russian Navy needs 4 aircraft carriers - 2 each for the Northern and Pacific Fleets. In addition to the huge cost of building an aircraft carrier, its operation is extremely expensive. An aircraft carrier is an incredibly complex ship with hundreds of different systems. And as world practice shows, including the experience of operating aircraft carriers in the USSR and Russia, aircraft carriers spend half and even more of their lives not at sea, but at the berth walls and in the docks of shipyards, undergoing maintenance and various repairs - from medium to major. Thus, in order to permanently have one combat-ready aircraft carrier, the Northern and Pacific fleets must have 2 aircraft carriers each. Otherwise, the aircraft carrier, at the moment when it will be needed, may not be completely sky-ready. Moreover, as in the North, in the Pacific Fleet there is no adequate infrastructure for servicing and repairing aircraft carrier class ships, and only in the Northern Fleet this problem is urgently solved for repairing the only Russian [CV/TAKR] Adm. Kuznetsov. And if the construction of one aircraft carrier is still possible, albeit with enormous difficulty, the serial construction of such ships lies beyond the capabilities of the modern Russian economy and industry.

    https://regnum.ru/news/polit/2809156.html

    In sum, it's a lot cheaper to send a tug along the refitted Adm. K everytime it sails out then to scrap it & build a CVN that will stay in port/yard most of the time anyway.
    The learning curve at work:
    The cruiser "Admiral Kuznetsov" did not receive critical damage as a result of the fire - the head of the USC
    http://www.ng.ru/news/665971.html?print=Y


    Last edited by Tsavo Lion on Mon Dec 16, 2019 10:12 pm; edited 4 times in total (Reason for editing : add links)
    Dima
    Dima

    Posts : 1122
    Points : 1135
    Join date : 2012-03-22

    Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2 - Page 30 Empty Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2

    Post  Dima on Tue Dec 17, 2019 8:58 am

    I was hoping 11435 Kuznetsov will adopt 11430 Vikramaditya's same route and go in for diesel fired unit. But almost all articles mention the new boilers as KVG-4.
    Probably they wanted to keep it cheaper (again half arsed measure) and thus avoided KVG-3D which uses HSDF?

    Below spec sheet for the boilers.
    Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2 - Page 30 Ship_b11
    Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2 - Page 30 Kvg_bo10
    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 25363
    Points : 25909
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2 - Page 30 Empty Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2

    Post  GarryB on Tue Dec 17, 2019 10:30 am

    Of course. But he still knew a thing or two about management.

    Well, if threats of violence is management then yeah, but not really a sustainable management plan because groups will start to work against you... both in your head (paranoia) and in reality and lashing out at both of those can lead to friends and enemys getting in the way... which kinda makes even your friends think of helping your enemies just for personal preservation.

    I guess if you take away the firing squads, forced labour under atrocious conditions, totalitarian control over society, purging of everyone who constituted a potential rival or didn't align closely enough to him - his methods and general approach would still be pretty effective today. There was rather more to them that just those things; and where a couple of those things might be neccessary, they can be replaced today with something more humane but still punishing enough.

    Problem is that if you strip away those things it stops being Stalin and becomes Brezhnev or Gorby... and I don't think either would have cut it in the 1920s to drag Russia up the way he did. I would love to see what Putin could have done in such a situation... he seems to be a much more patient and much more sensible person less likely to lash out or act on emotion or anger.


    Western experts will tell you that it was due to his decisions and purge of the army that the Red Army lost 90% of its 20,000-strong tank force within the opening months of the war, as well as almost the entire airforce.

    They lost most of that tank force because they were two man tanks not designed to fight a modern war... they were effectively WWI tanks being sent in to WWII against the toughest opponent there was at the time. Not to mention most didn't even have anti tank ammo and it becomes clear they really didn't have much of a chance.

    In many ways the airforce was lucky because while it was in a similar position with Polikarpov fighters that were fine in their day but obsolete for WWII, because most of their old obsolete vehicles were destroyed lined up next to runways, so their pilots survived and were not killed trying to fly obsolete aircraft against well trained Germans in modern machines.

    And while there may be truth in that, a more serious expert will tell you that if it wasn't for Stalin's mass-industrialization of Russia and the Ukraine during the 30s, when it reached GDP growth rates of some 15% and started to produce its own equipment and weapon designs adapted for its own conditions, rather than importing everything from Europe as the Russian Empire had done - then the USSR wouldn't have had even 1/10th of those 20,000 tanks to lose in the first place against Germany, when the later inevitably invaded.

    Even more so, the industrialisation meant Russians had seen an internal combustion engine and knew what it was... without Stalin, most of the peasants off the farm would think a tank was magic and not know how to maintain or service an engine or a large gun...

    Russia could not rely on imports for WWII as the Germans and French and British were main suppliers and they were not likely to continue to supply the Soviets during a major war.

    But it is responsibility. We in Russia, having come out of a worker's state not too long ago - have a natural disdain for managers. In the Soviet era, you had bosses and you had managers; but they weren't even allowed to fire you from your job, without very good reason. And they were always experienced technical specialists and former workers themselves; they didn't come out of some management degree at university like they do now.
    Nowadays though, they get twice the pay of the common people - and seemingly all power in their hands. So then they should have the responsibility that comes with it too, else who the fk needs them? What, to provide motivational speeches and check that everyone is coming to work on time? No, then as well as now, they are to play a senior technical supervisory role, especially in industrial enterprises, and they answer for the practices or lack thereof of the people under their charge. It is their job to find problems with personnel ahead of time and take corrective measures, and their job to make sure standards are being followed. The managers above them, the ones sitting in the offices and directing business operations - their job is to select the technical and shift managers for competency, have enough knowledge to determine what makes a good one, and supervise them in turn, make surprise inspections of the work premises and so on.

    Well that sounds like the fault of the education systems failing to train the supervisors and managers, and also an issue with procedure and safety codes... are they effective, and are they actually being applied properly.

    Perhaps a compromise could be for the working staff to get to a level where they could become a manager and then be sent by the factory or workshop to university or polytechnic to get the qualifications for management and to then come back and become managers... then you will get the best of both worlds and a chance to rise up out off the factory floor to higher paying jobs if you have the people and technical skills of course...

    If there is a clear failure that leads to deaths and hundreds of millions of dollars worth of damage, then its clear that the whole chain isn't working as intended.

    I don't see how you can say that... the incident needs to be investigated first to determine what actually went wrong before you decide who gets fired or what procedures need to be changed. If the procedures were fine but they weren't being followed then you look at who was supposed to be making sure things were done properly and those people should be at the very least demoted if not fired...

    And even if he had succeeded, there surely wouldn't have been a complacent bufoon who had placed all the sawdust or whatever in a compartment right below the welding work being done, that turned what could have been a minor incident into a major disaster. Even then, the automated fire retardation systems would have sprung into action. But whoops, someone decided to remove or deactivate them so then wouldn't get in the way; someone gave that order and the workers did it without questioning its wisdom. See where I'm going with this?

    I do, but I don't think you have fully thought it through. On building sites... which is basically what this is, the fire alarm and other systems are at least turned off for wielding... there is nothing like high voltage TIG wielding with a sprinkler being set off, or some vinyl layer using a gas burner to heat the vinyl so it can be fitted setting off the fire alarm and water flushing out the compartment that has just been painted or insulated that now needs to be completely redone...

    If someone told you to wield some wires in a room you don't ask if the room downstairs is clear of rubbish... you just do your job assuming that people clean up their rubbish as they go.

    By all means they should find the facts too. Find the facts so practices can be improved. And so that the guilty can be identified.
    And then shake up the whole place and other places too, because in fact everyone is a little guilty when it comes to something like this. The faults are on many levels.

    Do you still fire people when it turns out the people who made the mistake ran head long in to the fire to try to put it out and are burned to death?

    Don't you have some of the blame... you haven't mentioned all this stuff about not being hard on safety every post you make here, so in a way the lax attitude to safety in Russia is partly your fault too..  Razz Laughing Laughing

    He's like Santa Claus and Jesus rolled into one.

    That is a good thing isn't it?

    He has done a lot to transform opinion around the world regarding Russia, and to make things better for most Russians...

    Yet if comparing him to Stalin, there are definately things he has done better - mostly in terms of solving problems and resurrecting, developing the country using far more humane means, but also plenty of areas where he has been too laid back and not active enough.

    Areas where he has not done enough... well honestly I would expect that at the very least... nobody is perfect...

    Why has there been no such effort for emergency services and industrial practices? Nevermind healthcare, education, etc... which have at best only improved slowly and incrementally.

    No point buying a new big screen TV if you don't have a front door...

    The system should be changed, it's all built around the idea of reaction, PR and finding scapegoats, not putting the right people in the right place to identify problems ahead of time.

    But how do you know you have the right people in place?


    There surely has been, in fact I know there has been, after a spate of mass fires. But clearly this incident as well as the forest fires this summer has shown that it's not enough. They may have reacted to the problems and failings that were visible. They probably decided to ignore the stuff that hasn't caught on fire just yet though.

    Can't you appreciate that they can't fix everything at once... somethings they don't realise are problems till they happen... it is not that they don't want to fix everything, it is that they can only do so much and need to prioritise... some things will get fixed first... some may never get fixed because the cost to fix it more than the cost of failure... if you know what I mean.

    But it's not normal, and the only way to change this culture is to change the conditions and system that underpin it. Shaking things up would be a good start, then finding some more competent people, then decentralizing things a bit.

    I appreciate what you are saying about decentralisation, that leads to distant managers who don't give a shit.

    I have a friend who works for a company based in Auckland who wanted them to go from one place in Dunedin to another place for work... they looked on the map and thought it was not that far away and gave them 15 minutes to get from one job to the other... in reality however there is no direct road from one place to the other and it was a 2 hour drive between those places, but the person in Auckland didn't know this.

    But if the Kuznetsov was previously slated for a 2022 completion date, which may now be moved back by another year at least - then we're already looking at over 3 years and several hundred million dollars just to bring it back to order. And then you'll have it back, a still problematic ship, with probably not more than 15 years left in it anyway, that Russia is dependent on until further notice.

    It says above that the cleanup will take an extra 6 months, but as the vessel is waiting for a dry dock to be built it was 6 months it was going to be sitting idle anyway, so this wont effect plans for the ship in any way.


    If we have the option of building a new one within 6 years and a 3 billion dollar budget, then it begins to looks like a viable idea, especially as some of that 3 billion we can raise by removing the Kuznetsov from service along with all its associated operation costs, and scrapping it. The carrier airwing and infastructure we can reuse, no need to raise a new one.

    But that is the point... they haven't decided on the new design yet and there are several technologies not ready for it either, but even assuming it was ready to lay down right now it will take 8 years to build and another four probably fitting out and getting everything working properly before it could be called operational... the K could be ready in 2023 which is much sooner. Second, removing the K from service and scrapping it would cost money... it wouldn't save a single cent.

    Of course if it takes more than 6 years, or much more than 3 billion dollars, or a whole reshuffling of schedules and delays across the board due to no spare capacity, or no ready design and so on - then I agree, it's not worth it. It all depends.

    I rather suspect it will probably cost 3-4 billion if they make two (ie 3-4 billion each), but there are no plans for new fixed wing carriers before 2030... not because they can't do it now, but because they don't plan to do it before then.

    They will likely be laying down helicopter carriers over the next two years and then they will likely lay down 7K ton Gorskovs as a middle step... basically mini destroyers/ long range Frigates... based on the Gorshkov Frigate design... better armed with more endurance... and the next step will be the 20K ton cruisers which will be their first ships designed with an air defence system designed to defend the group of ships it operates with... the sort of ship you need with aircraft carriers...

    That's a good argument, but then on the Kuznetsov they're not trying out revolutionary new technologies and can't anyway. They neeeeeed it, remember?

    That is how valuable an eye in the sky is... not just the fighter planes but a platform that can operate 3-4 Ka-31s that can fly around and scan the skies from sea level and up.... the really high ballistic stuff can be detected at long range with ships radar, but the Ka-31s can see low out to extreme distances... 250km, and even the standard Ka-32s have decent radars for long range detection too, not to mention the MiG-29KR and Su-33s radars or Ka-52K with their AESA radars...

    The Russian navy basically will have S-400 and S-350 and Pantsir and TOR batteries operating with their surface vessels, but the coverage and depth of protection is greatly expanded when you add AWACS and fighter aircraft in to the mix... and this is not battle of britain stuff, these aircraft and ships and satellites and helicopters and subs are all linked together and knows where each other is and can work together instead of each on its own like the old Syrian air defence that was like a sieve to all comers... working together sharing sensor information and a command and control structure meaning threats are defended against together rather than by individuals makes defence and offense much much more capable.

    The carrier is there to protect the ships and subs, the ships and subs are there to do the job.

    The carrier makes the ships and subs much safer and much more likely to be able to get their job done without losses or surprises from the enemy.

    We saw the state of that ship when they removed the boilers to change them with new ones... and they didn't change all of them which suggests they won't keep them that long.

    They didn't change all of them because all of them didn't need changing...

    Without forgeting that the arresting wires broke in a deployement mission and most of the su33 missions in Syria were done from Hmeimim.

    Arrester gear cables are like bungee cords... they break all the time. The problem they had was not the cables, it was the gear itself that was not tensioned and gave no give, so any cable would just snap like any cable system without arrester gear to absorb the energy would.

    They will have fixed the arrester gear by now.

    The navy has no interest in that ship. They need to start a new modern carrier ASAP and get ride of that costly training facility.

    They have said they are not interested in a replacement to be started till 2030, so they clearly expect to use the K till then.

    If China and specially India can make a homemade carrier and produce 2 or 3, its well within Russian capacity to make its own one.

    Indias domestic carrier is late and over budget, and we don't know what China is spending on their carriers... but they seem to be throwing money at the problem... we really don't know what sort of product they will end up with or how effectively it will be used.

    In sum, it's a lot cheaper to send a tug along the refitted Adm. K everytime it sails out then to scrap it & build a CVN that will stay in port/yard most of the time anyway.
    The learning curve at work:
    The cruiser "Admiral Kuznetsov" did not receive critical damage as a result of the fire - the head of the USC

    It doesn't matter how expensive or how long the repair will take because building a new CVN just is not an option before 2030...

    I was hoping 11435 Kuznetsov will adopt 11430 Vikramaditya's same route and go in for diesel fired unit. But almost all articles mention the new boilers as KVG-4.
    Probably they wanted to keep it cheaper (again half arsed measure) and thus avoided KVG-3D which uses HSDF?

    I suspect they want to keep the changes relatively basic and cheap because it will be more of a place holder to keep up skills and test tactics where possible, but not be the centre of a carrier group like US carriers... in the Russian Navy it is more of a support ship to protect other ships and subs...

    Honestly if they were going to spend a bit of money on something I would like to see them take the whole propulsion system out of the Kirov class ship that had the reactor problem and replace it with one or two of their new reactors for their big ships (cruisers and carriers)... it would be a chance to test it properly and if it worked could replace the hokey setup in the Kirovs with the oddball propulsion...
    Big_Gazza
    Big_Gazza

    Posts : 2008
    Points : 2010
    Join date : 2014-08-25
    Location : Melbourne, Australia

    Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2 - Page 30 Empty Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2

    Post  Big_Gazza on Tue Dec 17, 2019 10:34 am

    Why would they want to burn expensive diesel fuel when cheap Mazut is available?

    Why pay for a complete replacement of the fuel transfer and conditioning systems as well as new boilers?

    Mazut works fine and they have plenty of it. AFAIK the Indian navy doesn't have existing infrastructure for heavy fuel oils so they plugged for diesel.

    Reality doesn't always conform to peoples preferences.
    Dima
    Dima

    Posts : 1122
    Points : 1135
    Join date : 2012-03-22

    Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2 - Page 30 Empty Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2

    Post  Dima on Tue Dec 17, 2019 3:50 pm

    Big_Gazza wrote:Why would they want to burn expensive diesel fuel when cheap Mazut is available?

    Why pay for a complete replacement of the fuel transfer and conditioning systems as well as new boilers?

    Mazut works fine and they have plenty of it.  AFAIK the Indian navy doesn't have existing infrastructure for heavy fuel oils so they plugged for diesel.

    Reality doesn't always conform to peoples preferences.
    HSDF is costlier and that could be the main reason. But then, from the chart, both KVG-4-1 and KVG-4 uses higher quantity of fuel (360Kg/hr - 1650Kg/hr) than KVG-3D.

    That is in 24 hours -
    KVG-4-1 boilers will be using 8,640Kg/boiler --> 8 x KVG-4-1 = 69.12 tons/day higher than KVG-3D
    KVG-4 boilers will be using 39,600Kg/boiler --> 8 x KVG-4 = 316.8 tons/day higher than KVG-3D

    But both of these KVG-4 boilers also have 15 tons/hr additional steam output.
    George1
    George1

    Posts : 14775
    Points : 15274
    Join date : 2011-12-22
    Location : Greece

    Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2 - Page 30 Empty Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2

    Post  George1 on Thu Dec 19, 2019 8:13 am

    According to the newspaper Kommersant, in a material by Maxim Pilotov, “The source estimated the damage of Admiral Kuznetsov from the fire to 95 billion rubles,” a source at the headquarters of the Northern Fleet said that the Admiral of the Fleet of the Soviet Union Kuznetsov aircraft carrier caused fire [December 12, 2019] damage can reach 95 billion rubles. “This is not only about damage to the structures of the aircraft carrier, but also about damaged repair equipment and failed military and civilian specialists due to injuries,” he explained.

    https://bmpd.livejournal.com/3878005.html
    dino00
    dino00

    Posts : 1391
    Points : 1432
    Join date : 2012-10-12
    Age : 32
    Location : portugal

    Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2 - Page 30 Empty Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2

    Post  dino00 on Thu Dec 19, 2019 10:14 am

    George1 wrote:    According to the newspaper Kommersant, in a material by Maxim Pilotov, “The source estimated the damage of Admiral Kuznetsov from the fire to 95 billion rubles,” a source at the headquarters of the Northern Fleet said that the Admiral of the Fleet of the Soviet Union Kuznetsov aircraft carrier caused fire [December 12, 2019] damage can reach 95 billion rubles. “This is not only about damage to the structures of the aircraft carrier, but also about damaged repair equipment and failed military and civilian specialists due to injuries,” he explained.

    https://bmpd.livejournal.com/3878005.html

    What?? 95 billion with a b?? Or Kommersant is crazy or kuznetsov is all f@cked!
    That's 1370€ millions Shocked
    dino00
    dino00

    Posts : 1391
    Points : 1432
    Join date : 2012-10-12
    Age : 32
    Location : portugal

    Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2 - Page 30 Empty Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2

    Post  dino00 on Thu Dec 19, 2019 11:01 am

    dino00 wrote:
    George1 wrote:    According to the newspaper Kommersant, in a material by Maxim Pilotov, “The source estimated the damage of Admiral Kuznetsov from the fire to 95 billion rubles,” a source at the headquarters of the Northern Fleet said that the Admiral of the Fleet of the Soviet Union Kuznetsov aircraft carrier caused fire [December 12, 2019] damage can reach 95 billion rubles. “This is not only about damage to the structures of the aircraft carrier, but also about damaged repair equipment and failed military and civilian specialists due to injuries,” he explained.

    https://bmpd.livejournal.com/3878005.html

    What?? 95 billion with a b?? Or Kommersant is crazy or kuznetsov is all f@cked!
    That's 1370€ millions Shocked


    USC: the cost of repairing "Admiral Kuznetsov" of 95 billion is not true

    He stated that the fire would not have a significant impact on the budget and timing of cruiser repairs[

    The information of some media that the amount of damage caused by the fire at the Admiral Kuznetsov TAVKR allegedly equal to the cost of the aircraft carrier itself is completely untrue," Rakhmanov said.

    https://tass.ru/proisshestviya/7379295
    Big_Gazza
    Big_Gazza

    Posts : 2008
    Points : 2010
    Join date : 2014-08-25
    Location : Melbourne, Australia

    Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2 - Page 30 Empty Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2

    Post  Big_Gazza on Thu Dec 19, 2019 12:12 pm

    It seems that Russian privately-owned media is just as mendacious, feckless and averse to the truth as are our corporate lame-stream fake-news presstitutes...

    Its hardly a surprise.  Elite capital owners are all lying psychopaths, regardless of their nation of origin.
    Vladimir79
    Vladimir79

    Posts : 2952
    Points : 3828
    Join date : 2009-07-10

    Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2 - Page 30 Empty Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2

    Post  Vladimir79 on Thu Dec 19, 2019 6:47 pm

    Big_Gazza wrote:It seems that Russian privately-owned media is just as mendacious, feckless and averse to the truth as are our corporate lame-stream fake-news presstitutes...

    Its hardly a surprise.  Elite capital owners are all lying psychopaths, regardless of their nation of origin.

    Russian media is either owned by the state or by oligarchs that are subservient to it. You cannot apply Western MSM conspiracies to Russia, they do not apply. The owner of Kommersant and his wife are very close to Putin. The head of USC has his own ass to save so it is not hard to discount his official position. After the number of embarrassments on his watch Putin may have ordered this leaked to give impetus to have him removed for incompetency.
    Isos
    Isos

    Posts : 5814
    Points : 5806
    Join date : 2015-11-06

    Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2 - Page 30 Empty Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2

    Post  Isos on Thu Dec 19, 2019 8:02 pm

    Russian media is either owned by the state or by oligarchs that are subservient to it. You cannot apply Western MSM conspiracies to Russia, they do not apply.

    French media are the same. Either owned by the state/EU like arte or they belong to richest men that use them for their own goals. It's just that here medias don't really publish those informations (what belongs to who). In other countries it should be the same, maybe they use some anonymous companies to get the media but at the end it's the same powerful poeple who control them. Just like in Russia. The only thing that change is that in Russia it is Putin who gives orders while in west it's the owners of those media because they can destroy politics and basically put who they want to power and remove the ones they don't like by creating some scandals.

    Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2 - Page 30 Ppav1410
    avatar
    Azi

    Posts : 419
    Points : 415
    Join date : 2016-04-05

    Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2 - Page 30 Empty Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2

    Post  Azi on Thu Dec 19, 2019 8:47 pm

    Isos wrote:
    Russian media is either owned by the state or by oligarchs that are subservient to it. You cannot apply Western MSM conspiracies to Russia, they do not apply.

    French media are the same. Either owned by the state/EU like arte or they belong to richest men that use them for their own goals. It's just that here medias don't really publish those informations (what belongs to who). In other countries it should be the same, maybe they use some anonymous companies to get the media but at the end it's the same powerful poeple who control them. Just like in Russia. The only thing that change is that in Russia it is Putin who gives orders while in west it's the owners of those media because they can destroy politics and basically put who they want to power and remove the ones they don't like by creating some scandals.

    Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2 - Page 30 Ppav1410
    When I was younger I worked for a german TV company, owned by state. I worked as IT operator, but I had a free contract....and you can imagine they fired me from one day to another day, because a woman from "dispo" (shiftplanning) was not pleased with me...I don't know why?! Later I switched to chemistry, after studying ;D Happy for many years now Very Happy

    Free contracts are common for TV companies or newspapers...so if you write or do something your editor don't like...bye bye! That's why journalists write sometimes bullshit for no reason, to please the boss ang get a better position. This has own momentum! That is the reason for western mainstream bullshit! The same reason in Russia! There is absolute no difference!!!
    Big_Gazza
    Big_Gazza

    Posts : 2008
    Points : 2010
    Join date : 2014-08-25
    Location : Melbourne, Australia

    Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2 - Page 30 Empty Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2

    Post  Big_Gazza on Sat Dec 21, 2019 1:22 am

    Vladimir79 wrote:
    Big_Gazza wrote:It seems that Russian privately-owned media is just as mendacious, feckless and averse to the truth as are our corporate lame-stream fake-news presstitutes...

    Its hardly a surprise.  Elite capital owners are all lying psychopaths, regardless of their nation of origin.

    Russian media is either owned by the state or by oligarchs that are subservient to it.  You cannot apply Western MSM conspiracies to Russia, they do not apply.  The owner of Kommersant and his wife are very close to Putin.  The head of USC has his own ass to save so it is not hard to discount his official position.  After the number of embarrassments on his watch Putin may have ordered this leaked to give impetus to have him removed for incompetency.  

    Then how do you account for those media outlets that are staunchly anti-Kremlin? Clearly there are media houses that are foreign-owned, and some that are hardline anti-gov (or both). I'm quite frankly astounded that you expect to be taken seriously in this matter???

    BTW this absurd 95B figure has not been "leaked" as its completely bogus. Its just another example of an idiot journo writing total BS based on 5th columnist fabrications, and an incompetent editor allowing it to pass.
    Big_Gazza
    Big_Gazza

    Posts : 2008
    Points : 2010
    Join date : 2014-08-25
    Location : Melbourne, Australia

    Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2 - Page 30 Empty Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2

    Post  Big_Gazza on Sat Dec 21, 2019 1:32 am

    Azi wrote:Free contracts are common for TV companies or newspapers...so if you write or do something your editor don't like...bye bye! That's why journalists write sometimes bullshit for no reason, to please the boss ang get a better position. This has own momentum! That is the reason for western mainstream bullshit! The same reason in Russia! There is absolute no difference!!!

    Yup, 100% accurate. For the same reason, the sock puppets in our media all stick to the corporate-approved line, even though its clearly a bag of sh_t. If they refuse to tow teh line, they are FIRED, and then BLACK-BALLED when no other corporate will pick them up because they are tagged as being "unreliable".

    Phil Donahue was a HUGE network asset in his day, but he fell afoul of the push to war (on fakery and lies) and was axed by MSNBC management because of it. They sacrificed one of their biggest hitters in order to enforce the corporate line, and none of their competitors would touch him with a barge pole afterwards. His career was destroyed because he chose to speak the truth, and the MSNBC Corporates and their owners in General Electric (a major MIC systems contractor) never looked back or even showed the slightest hint of shame. In 2007 he openly admitted that while at MSNC he was told he had to have 2x pro-war guests for every 1x anti-war "liberal".

    "Free" media doesn't exist in the West. It is a huge dirty LIE. You only have the freedom to print what you want if you happen to OWN a media company...
    kvs
    kvs

    Posts : 6420
    Points : 6557
    Join date : 2014-09-11
    Location : Canuckistan

    Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2 - Page 30 Empty Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2

    Post  kvs on Sat Dec 21, 2019 2:10 am

    The claim that Russia has no MSM independent of the state or "Putin's oligarchs" is a patent falsehood.    Gazeta is an example like the
    Moscow Times, Dozd TV, and even small scale media that is supposedly grass roots.   These outlets are outright pro-NATO and anti-Russian.
    There is simply nothing similar here in Canada, the USA and most of the EU.    Exceptions just prove the rule.

    As in the west, the average Russian citizen does not know who runs the various media companies.   Any claim to know exactly who is
    running them is pure speculation.   The only way to judge them is how they walk and talk.    And Big Gazza hit the nail on the head.
    Russian MSM has plenty of 5th column and compardor outfits posing as patriotic media only interested in the well being of Russians.
    Behind their backs they spit on them as "bydlo".

    Sponsored content

    Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2 - Page 30 Empty Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2

    Post  Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Tue Aug 11, 2020 3:48 pm