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    Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2

    miketheterrible
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    Post  miketheterrible on Fri Dec 13, 2019 12:38 am

    Oh wow. Time to call it quits on this ship. If they do need a carrier, guarantee it will be cheaper to build new one than trying to rescue this ship.
    Isos
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    Post  Isos on Fri Dec 13, 2019 12:41 am

    Vladimir79 wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:
    This ship just want to die.

    Will they put it out of it's misery already? Do they have no decency?


    I can't imagine putting it back into service after this much damage.  


    That will accelerate the order of a new carrier like the small Shtirm KM. But also oblige those assholes to improve their shipyard.

    They can always sell it to india or china, they will likely rebuild it faster than Russia and would be happy to have it in their navy.


    Btw R.I.P to the guy who died. There are another two missing probavly dead too.
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    Post  miketheterrible on Fri Dec 13, 2019 12:43 am

    I would say that there is a major problem at Russian shipyards in terms of repairing ships. Building new ones not a problem but repairing seems to be a major issue where they cause constant fires. But I agree with ISOS, at this point, cheaper and faster to buy into Shturm than it is to keep this boat going.
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Fri Dec 13, 2019 12:46 am

    The USS Forrestal fire was a lot worse, & the USN repaired it.


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1967_USS_Forrestal_fire#Drydock_repairs
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    Post  miketheterrible on Fri Dec 13, 2019 12:49 am

    Maybe it was worst than this fire but as said in Tass, it was a violation in work. This is a major issue with the repair plants. And thus already damage is to the point that it may be cheaper to build a new vessel instead. Plus may be done quicker too
    Isos
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    Post  Isos on Fri Dec 13, 2019 12:55 am

    Babak Taghvaee
    @BabakTaghvaee
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    8h
    The fire in the #Russia Navy #AdmiralKuznetsov/#АдмиралКузнецов is now fully extinguished after fire-fighters filled the burning sections of the aircraft carrier with water. As the result of the damages, the ship's repair work will last at-least six more months in #Murmansk.




    Fire is not a friend of metals. The structure could need mort parts to be changed by the same guys who started this fire. Idk why they didn't send this ship in China for repair. They can finish in 1 or 2 months.
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    Post  Vladimir79 on Fri Dec 13, 2019 12:57 am

    miketheterrible wrote:Maybe it was worst than this fire but as said in Tass, it was a violation in work. This is a major issue with the repair plants. And thus already damage is to the point that it may be cheaper to build a new vessel instead. Plus may be done quicker too

    $340 million has already been wasted on this refit which should have gone to that. Unless Putin is going to magically come up with billions for a CATOBAR it is not worth pursuing.
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    Post  Vladimir79 on Fri Dec 13, 2019 1:01 am

    Isos wrote:

    Fire is not a friend of metals. The structure could need mort parts to be changed by the same guys who started this fire. Idk why they didn't send this ship in China for repair. They can finish in 1 or 2 months.

    Sending it to China does not create jobs in Russia. It has always been a state welfare project and platform to promote export of MiG-29K. India must be looking very hard at this.
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    Post  miketheterrible on Fri Dec 13, 2019 1:04 am

    Vladimir79 wrote:
    miketheterrible wrote:Maybe it was worst than this fire but as said in Tass, it was a violation in work. This is a major issue with the repair plants. And thus already damage is to the point that it may be cheaper to build a new vessel instead. Plus may be done quicker too

    $340 million has already been wasted on this refit which should have gone to that.  Unless Putin is going to magically come up with billions for a CATOBAR it is not worth pursuing.  

    Well, they have over $40B in budget surplus they can use. It would end up cheaper long run for new ship.
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Fri Dec 13, 2019 1:15 am

    IMO, it should be kept to make $ spent on it already worth it. They can get all repairs faster than building a new CV or CVN.
    If it gets scrapped now, they'll have no CV/N for at least ~8-10 more years.
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    Post  Isos on Fri Dec 13, 2019 1:16 am

    Unless Putin is going to magically come up with billions for a CATOBAR it is not worth pursuing

    Well they can easily secure 5-6 billion $ in one year by stoping procurment of ground and air defence systems and increasing export gaz prices during this winter.

    And let's not talk about corruption. They could buy 10 carriers with that money.

    They will never order a super CATOBAR. That will be suicide. They can't repaire the kuznetsov, what would happen with a CATOBAR.

    The small shtorm would be a good replacement for kuznetsov, a better ad for mig-29k/mig-35 and allow to even find export customers like South Korea or Saudi Arabia.

    Sending it to China does not create jobs in Russia. It has always been a state welfare project and platform to promote export of MiG-29K. India must be looking very hard at this.

    India has already bought mig-29k and is the only customer that can buy it.

    New build ships create more jobs. They would have saved a lot if they had send it to China for repairs and they could have even sold it them for 4 or 5 billion so that they have both ships of the class whike Russia goes with a new and modern design.
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    Post  Vladimir79 on Fri Dec 13, 2019 1:31 am

    Isos wrote:

    India has already bought mig-29k and is the only customer that can buy it.

    New build ships create more jobs. They would have saved a lot if they had send it to China for repairs and they could have even sold it them for 4 or 5 billion so that they have both ships of the class whike Russia goes with a new and modern design.

    The Indian carrier has similar systems to this one and the lack of safety features. If this ship had up-to-date fire suppression it would immediately extinguish the fire.

    China would not buy it for anything more than scrap. They have their own state welfare projects to keep people employed.
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Fri Dec 13, 2019 1:36 am

    They would have saved a lot if they had send it to China for repairs and they could have even sold it them for 4 or 5 billion..
    but for political purposes, Russia can't afford to be w/o a carrier even for 1 day, & even if it spends most time in port/yards & home waters.
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    Post  Isos on Fri Dec 13, 2019 1:48 am

    The Indian carrier has similar systems to this one and the lack of safety features. If this ship had up-to-date fire suppression it would immediately extinguish the fire.

    China would not buy it for anything more than scrap. They have their own state welfare projects to keep people employed.

    India already bought the carrier. Who cares if they are closly monitoring what's happening with the K. Their new homemade carriers are not better than this anyway and will order something new from Russia just like they are ordering t-90 while having arjun.  

    China is no better.

    China needs such ship. The modernization to their standard and repair of the destructed parts is lot of work for their shipyards. At least 2 or 3 years of work.

    They produce tens of modern destroyers every two year but yet they upgrade the sovromenys which are almost 20 years old. That's a sign that they still consider russian hardware worth puting money in, even if old ones still very good. And we (and specially they) still needs to see what is worth their homemade carrier. Very likely they could buy the K and upgrade it like they are doing with sovromenys.

    They could even sell them all of the su-33 for 2-2.5 billion and buy some 30 mig-35 and yak 44 replacement for their new carrier with that money.
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Fri Dec 13, 2019 2:06 am

    The area of ​​fire quickly reached 600 square meters. m, he was assigned the second rank of difficulty. However, according to sources close to the emergency commission, the new equipment was not damaged, so the fire should not adversely affect the completion dates for the repair of the only Russian aircraft carrier. In fact, workers will only have to clean up the fire and redecorate them. After that, the installation of new equipment will resume.
    https://iz.ru/953787/aleksei-ramm-anton-lavrov-bogdan-stepovoi/pozhar-v-kraskakh-chto-stalo-prichinoi-chs-na-avianostce-admiral-kuznetcov

    https://iz.ru/953567/video/video-pozhara-na-kreisere-admiral-kuznetcov-s-koptera
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    Post  Vladimir79 on Fri Dec 13, 2019 2:20 am

    Tsavo Lion wrote:The area of ​​fire quickly reached 600 square meters. m, he was assigned the second rank of difficulty. However, according to sources close to the emergency commission, the new equipment was not damaged, so the fire should not adversely affect the completion dates for the repair of the only Russian aircraft carrier. In fact, workers will only have to clean up the fire and redecorate them. After that, the installation of new equipment will resume.
    https://iz.ru/953787/aleksei-ramm-anton-lavrov-bogdan-stepovoi/pozhar-v-kraskakh-chto-stalo-prichinoi-chs-na-avianostce-admiral-kuznetcov

    https://iz.ru/953567/video/video-pozhara-na-kreisere-admiral-kuznetcov-s-koptera

    You obviously did not see the extent of the fire.



    The fire broke out in the power supply compartment and all of the diesel generators and cables are destroyed.
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    Post  PapaDragon on Fri Dec 13, 2019 2:23 am

    Tsavo Lion wrote:The USS Forrestal fire was a lot worse, & the USN repaired it.
    ....
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1967_USS_Forrestal_fire#Drydock_repairs

    USN was getting excellent results out of Forrestal and she was more than worth repairing to say nothing of how necessary she was for US military needs

    Same doesn't apply for Kuznetzov



    miketheterrible wrote:Maybe it was worst than this fire but as said in Tass, it was a violation in work...

    Oh and another thing: every single person in that facility with access to blowtorch should be immediately fired alongside any work supervisor currently on the payroll



    Vladimir79 wrote:.... It has always been a state welfare project and platform to promote export of MiG-29K.

    MiG-29K has been dead project for years now, another thing to move on from alongside this carrier




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    Post  PapaDragon on Fri Dec 13, 2019 2:37 am

    Tsavo Lion wrote:... but for political purposes, Russia can't afford to be w/o a carrier even for 1 day, & even if it spends most time in port/yards & home waters.

    Yes they can and they should

    This ship is nothing more than redundant disgrace, a floating monument to dead era and a pathetic country that died a humiliating death

    Several aircraft squadrons and enough people to crew 10 frigates are stuck on this bathtub that never in it's entire existence demonstrated even an inkling of usefulness

    To say nothing of the fact that there wasn't a single moment in history of modern day Russia that an aircraft carrier was ever needed for anything

    Killing this white elephant will free up enough funds to fully equip entire Navy with all the new surface combatants that are actually required




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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Fri Dec 13, 2019 2:40 am

    You obviously did not see the extent of the fire.
    Nor did any1 else on this forum. Even if they'll need to replace all the cables & gear, it'll still be a lot le$$ than building a new CV/N.
    ..this bathtub that never in it's entire existence demonstrated even an inkling of usefulness
    it's useful for training & gaining experience in the real world war zone. Negative results r still results they can learn lessons from to get better at operating a CBG at sea.


    Last edited by Tsavo Lion on Fri Dec 13, 2019 2:46 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : add text)
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    Post  miketheterrible on Fri Dec 13, 2019 6:19 am

    Something people are overlooking is that a demand was made for a jump jet by 2027. That should hint that the Kuznetsov and any carrier with both ski jumps and catapults are not needed for future.  So future carriers may end up being similar to cargo vessels for Russia which is most ideal.  Hence why they should have not canceled the Yak 141 in first place.

    If they simply dumped the Kuznetsov, and use all that money towards the jump jet, they may be able to speed up development process and get something out sooner and this building vessels for it may be done quicker as well
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    Post  miketheterrible on Fri Dec 13, 2019 6:24 am

    Isos wrote:
    Unless Putin is going to magically come up with billions for a CATOBAR it is not worth pursuing

    Well they can easily secure 5-6 billion $ in one year by stoping procurment of ground and air defence systems and increasing export gaz prices during this winter.

    And let's not talk about corruption. They could buy 10 carriers with that money.

    They will never order a super CATOBAR. That will be suicide. They can't repaire the kuznetsov, what would happen with a CATOBAR.

    The small shtorm would be a good replacement for kuznetsov, a better ad for mig-29k/mig-35 and allow to even find export customers like South Korea or Saudi Arabia.

    Sending it to China does not create jobs in Russia. It has always been a state welfare project and platform to promote export of MiG-29K. India must be looking very hard at this.

    India has already bought mig-29k and is the only customer that can buy it.

    New build ships create more jobs. They would have saved a lot if they had send it to China for repairs and they could have even sold it them for 4 or 5 billion so that they have both ships of the class whike Russia goes with a new and modern design.

    They wouldn't need to stop funding anywhere. They have a pile of cash they are sitting on.

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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Fri Dec 13, 2019 6:31 am

    miketheterrible wrote:Something people are overlooking is that a demand was made for a jump jet by 2027. That should hint that the Kuznetsov and any carrier with both ski jumps and catapults are not needed for future.
    STOVLs need ski jumps for rolling takeoffs so they can save fuel & carry more payload. QE class CVs have them, JMSDF will have them, as well as other small carriers that operated Harriers.
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    Post  miketheterrible on Fri Dec 13, 2019 6:36 am

    Tsavo Lion wrote:
    miketheterrible wrote:Something people are overlooking is that a demand was made for a jump jet by 2027. That should hint that the Kuznetsov and any carrier with both ski jumps and catapults are not needed for future.
    STOVLs need ski jumps for rolling takeoffs so they can save fuel & carry more payload. QE class CVs have them, JMSDF will have them, as well as other small carriers that operated Harriers.

    Not entirely as seen in history where they did manage to use them on transport vessels. But ideally yeah, a ski jump may be helpful. In any case, it would be cheaper and better to invest in that and replace old vessel as well wait for new jump jets for Russia's case.
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    Post  Isos on Fri Dec 13, 2019 9:58 am


    Rob Lee
    @RALee85
    ·
    6h
    Both Vedomosti and Kommersant report that the fire occurred because safety standards were not followed. Sparks from welding fell below into another compartment where there were rags and sawdust with oils and lubricants, which should have been cleared. 13/



    Rob Lee
    @RALee85
    ·
    6h
    Since the ship is being repaired, much of its equipment has been removed, which, according to a Kommersant source, meant that the automatic fire extinguishing system didn't work properly (which could have quickly put out the fire). 16/


    Rob Lee
    @RALee85
    ·
    6h
    Now the shipbuilders will have to relay cable throughout the ship as well as other repairs. A Navy source told Vedomosti that there isn't talk of canceling the contract, though the costs will likely be transferred to the 35th SRZ. 18/


    Rob Lee
    @RALee85
    ·
    6h
    This is because construction of a new aircraft carrier won't begin until 2030 at the earliest, and the pilots of the naval aviation's 279th and 100th Naval Aviation Fighter Regiments need to be able to practice on a real carrier to sustain that institutional knowledge. 19/
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    Post  d_taddei2 on Fri Dec 13, 2019 11:38 am

    I still feel Russia is better off building 2-3 small aircraft carriers something that has air defence and cruise missiles a way of defending itself reducing the need for a host of other vessels although a few will still be needed and being a smaller design become less of a high pay off target compared to one super large carrier. And be cheaper and you get one into service quicker. I think the days for the K should be put to bed and sold off to another country.

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