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    Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2

    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Sat Apr 06, 2019 10:57 pm

    Not sure what you are talking about our CVN going off to the coast of Syria....what requires us to park a cvn there?
    Not them, but the other surface ships & planes were kept at least 50 km away from the Adm. K. The USN CVN arrived after it left IIRC.
    Russia wants to protect SSBNs tgat's why they need only 2 or 4 so that they can have 1 ready for each big fleet to protect subs.
    That was before. Now they can do it from shore bases with Su-30/33/34s & MiG-25/31s. Their SSBNs safely conducted dozens of exercises/patrols while the Adm. K was in the Med., moored or in the drydock.
    Totally outdated missile unless nuclear armed.
    Oniks is better than Granit.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P-800_Oniks#Advantages

    Range for low-altitude trajectory (lo-lo) – 120 km
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P-800_Oniks#Specifications
    Kuznetsov was the only one they have, that's why they kept that ship.
    It still is, & u just stated the reason not to give it up. Even after they get 2-3 more TAKR/CV/Ns, it'll be useful.


    Last edited by Tsavo Lion on Sat Apr 06, 2019 10:59 pm; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : add text)
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    Post  southpark on Sat Apr 06, 2019 11:02 pm

    Tsavo Lion wrote:
    Not sure what you are talking about our CVN going off to the coast of Syria....what requires us to park a cvn there?
    Not them, but the other surface ships & planes were kept  50 km away from the Adm K. The USN CVN arrived after it left IIRC.
    Ofcourse, Russia would do the same if it was the other way around....even if it is Israel instead of US...Russia would try to avoid direct conflict and viceversa. It is called fighting by proxy and avoiding direct conflict when there is a chance of retaliation. It does not mean one is inferior to the other especially conventional US has 10 to 1 on Russia broadly speaking capabilities wise.

    I know what you mean though in the context you were talking about.
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    Post  Isos on Sat Apr 06, 2019 11:16 pm

    Oniks is better than Granit.

    I was saying granit is outdated. Oniks is beter but can't be used by K.

    That was before. Now they can do it from shore bases with Su-30/33/34s & MiG-25/31s. Their SSBNs safely conducted dozens of exercises/patrols while the Adm. K was in the Med., moored or in the drydock.

    Not if the subs are deployed 1000km from the base.

    It's one thing doing exercices during peace time, but another thing when patrolling during tensions and war time when virginias and P-8 are following you.

    It still is, & u just stated the reason not to give it up. Even after they get 2-3 more TAKR/CV/Ns, it'll be useful

    Nope. It's no more since they can't repaire it. And no it won't be useful. They want to make to spend less but beter. Buying two new modern carriers and keeping money for those two to be well active is better than two + k which will need millions $ to stay afloat whike the two other are affected by lack of money.

    Similar to Typhoons. Could have been modernized and kept in service with borei. But they choosed Borei and cheaper Deltas because typhoon are big for nothing compare to borei which are less expensive, better armed and easier to keep active.

    Kuznetsov will go with sovs at the scrapping. Even india is producing its own carrier with shitty shipyards. Why not russia ?
    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Sat Apr 06, 2019 11:34 pm

    Oniks is beter but can't be used by K.
    With new cells they can, & it's been reported that they'll install them. Read the thread!
    Not if the subs are deployed 1000km from the base.
    ..when patrolling during tensions and war time when virginias and P-8 are following you.
    They now have Kilos+ SSNs to defend them in clear water near shores & under the ice where they patrol; the P-8s will be wasting their fuel & time there.
    Nope. It's no more since they can't repaire it. And no it won't be useful. They want to make to spend less but beter. Buying two new modern carriers and keeping money for those two to be well active is better than two + k which will need millions $ to stay afloat whike the two other are affected by lack of money.
    They only need to install screws & repair the deck. It's too big to fail now. They"ll $ave by staying in home waters more often than not & delaying building new CVNs; UDKs r more important & those can do most of the combat missions Adm. K was doing.
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    Post  dino00 on Tue Apr 09, 2019 11:05 am

    Repair of the aircraft carrier "Admiral Kuznetsov" was completed by a quarter, completed in 2020 - Shoigu

    "At the moment, work is being carried out in accordance with the master plan. Technical readiness of the cruiser is 25%. It is expected to complete repairs and modernization before the end of 2020," said S.Shoigu on Tuesday at a conference call at the Russian Defense Ministry.

    https://www.militarynews.ru/story.asp?rid=1&nid=505750&lang=RU
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    Post  LMFS on Tue Apr 09, 2019 2:06 pm

    Should put to rest so many unfounded comments, for the umpteenth time, about the scrapping of the Kuznetsov... will we learn from this one or stir another round of negativity in some weeks/months from now as usually?
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    Post  hoom on Fri Apr 12, 2019 12:10 am

    While there has only been suggestions of scrapping by uninvolved/russophobes, there's no particular reason to believe completion dates given by senior political leadership/management, history shows they're very rarely correct.

    I'll believe 2020 when I see some pics of rapid progress linking & extending those drydocks.
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    Post  LMFS on Mon Apr 15, 2019 7:03 pm

    More good advice from the Western friends, so worried about Russia and its problems:

    A view from the West: Russia is better to cut the carrier to the metal than to shame

    https://weaponews.com/news/65349734-a-view-from-the-west-russia-is-better-to-cut-the-carrier-to-the-metal-.html
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    Post  verkhoturye51 on Thu Apr 18, 2019 3:06 pm

    Yesterday

    Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2 - Page 18 D4b7BfxW4AEMP0Q?format=jpg&name=medium
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    Post  GarryB on Fri Apr 19, 2019 6:25 am

    Well now that they have decided not to upgrade the two Orlan class that means they must be going to build brand new replacements for them... or they will upgrade the Slava class vessels instead.

    Keep in mind the Slava and Kirov classes were built in parallel and offered two alternative paths to cruiser design... the Kirov rather bigger and part nuclear and more expensive but also more capable with largely vertical launch weapons, which was a first for the time.

    The Slava were a cheaper, smaller, more conservative conventionally powered design.

    The new vertical launch weapon systems however probably suit the Kirov more than the Slava, so the Slava might not be getting much in the way of an upgrade either.

    The only large ships that seem to be getting any sort of upgrade are the Udaloys... it will be interesting to see how they move forward...
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    Post  verkhoturye51 on Fri Apr 19, 2019 9:18 am

    Putting vertical launchers on the Soviet era cruisers is problematic, as they originally have installed angled launchers. Presumably, Kuznetsov will be able to receive one UKSK only due to this incompatibility.
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Fri Apr 19, 2019 9:23 am

    verkhoturye51 wrote:Putting vertical launchers on the Soviet era cruisers is problematic, as they originally have installed angled launchers. Presumably, Kuznetsov will be able to receive one UKSK only due to this incompatibility.
    kuz does have vertcal.launchers for the cruise.missiles...
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    Post  verkhoturye51 on Fri Apr 19, 2019 9:56 am

    kuz does have vertcal.launchers for the cruise.missiles...

    They're angled like on Orlan.

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    Post  GarryB on Sat Apr 20, 2019 3:57 am

    The Granit was too heavy to hot launch vertically... it had wings so an angled launch was best as it added the lift of the wings to the equation...

    The point is that when you remove them the space left can be straightened... ie compartments on ships are not angled permanently... you could cut the angle off front and back and make a bigger space for purely vertical systems.

    On the Oscars they just put liners for Onyx missile tubes inside each angled Granit tube and they could easily do that for the Kirov they are keeping and the Kuznetsov... 3 x 20 = 60 missiles for the Peter the Great and 3 x 12 = 36 missiles for the Kuznetsov.

    Now that they are only upgrading the PtG and K then perhaps they can allocate more money to them and do a better job of upgrading them.

    If the UKSK-M universal launcher includes S-350 and S-400 and S-500 SAMs then they will likely put in much more than 10 into the PtG as they wont just be replacing the Granit launchers, they will also be replacing the Rif-M launchers too...
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    Post  verkhoturye51 on Sat Apr 20, 2019 10:03 am

    I'm not sure if multiple Onyx missiles would fit in a single Granit tube, as their diameter is only 15 cm smaller (70 cm vs 85 cm).

    Regarding hot launch - AFAIK all Russian missiles are cold launched...that's the definition of launch when missiles are in reusable tubes like anywhere in the RuN. If the missile started its engine in the tube already it could hardly be usable again. Let alone the danger of firing other missiles in neighbouring tubes.

    Regarding extra missiles for Peter the Great, this would make sense because the modernization overall will be cheaper as it is in better condition as Nakhimov. So extra funds shouldn't be a problem. The ships is also much younger as Nakhimov so it would actually make sense to invest more in it. IMO such large ship can easily serve 50 years, so some 3 decades are surely in front of it. But leaving some space free also wouldn't be so bad, it's like the Americans and Zumwalt - just leave it for the future weapons. Then installation of new weaponry will be much faster and cheaper as the old ones won't have to be put out.
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    Post  hoom on Sun Apr 21, 2019 3:23 am

    Nakhimov had 5*4 Granit launchers, is getting 5*2 8-cell UKSK modules, it leaves apparently unused deck area due to the angled volume under-deck but its still 2* side-by-side Granits -> 1* UKSK.

    K has 6*2 Granits so should be able to upgrade that to 6* UKSK in terms of space but would need new aircraft-friendly hatches.
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    Post  GarryB on Sun Apr 21, 2019 12:00 pm

    I'm not sure if multiple Onyx missiles would fit in a single Granit tube, as their diameter is only 15 cm smaller (70 cm vs 85 cm).

    You are assuming the Granit tube is the same width as the missile body and it is not.

    On the OSCAR class subs they stated they were going to put liner tubes down the granit tubes for Calibr missiles... three per granit tube.... there are 24 Granit tubes on an OSCAR sub, and they stated that the upgrade would allow 72 Calibres or Onyx missiles to be carried instead... pretty clear that 24 + 24 + 24 = 72.


    K has 6*2 Granits so should be able to upgrade that to 6* UKSK in terms of space but would need new aircraft-friendly hatches.

    It would probably have a big deck hatch cover cover for aircraft to operate over it... like the granits.
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    Post  verkhoturye51 on Sun Apr 21, 2019 2:46 pm

    Nakhimov had 5*4 Granit launchers, is getting 5*2 8-cell UKSK modules, it leaves apparently unused deck area due to the angled volume under-deck but its still 2* side-by-side Granits -> 1* UKSK.

    K has 6*2 Granits so should be able to upgrade that to 6* UKSK in terms of space but would need new aircraft-friendly hatches.

    This is an interesting information. So if the navy decides that they need more Kalibr missiles, they can insert Kalibrs in Granit tubes. The question is, can they keep just one or two UKSK and take the aft ones away too free some space for increasing the air wing. IMO it would be worth giving up few missiles to get an extra fighter, especially now that they are producing blue water Kalibr carriers at higher pace.


    On the OSCAR class subs they stated they were going to put liner tubes down the granit tubes for Calibr missiles... three per granit tube.... there are 24 Granit tubes on an OSCAR sub, and they stated that the upgrade would allow 72 Calibres or Onyx missiles to be carried instead... pretty clear that 24 + 24 + 24 = 72.

    Now I checked too an it seems that Chelyabinsk and Irkutsk are actually getting 72 Onyx missiles each. So by the time Kuznetsov is back in service in 2021, those two project 949 AM subs should done, too. So the navy will probably have more than enough Onyx missiles. Where's the point of putting so many missiles on carrier anyway? On the other hand, if rearranging second deck could free up some space for extra aircraft, it would be a sensible change for me.
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    Post  hoom on Sun Apr 21, 2019 4:10 pm

    This is an interesting information. So if the navy decides that they need more Kalibr missiles, they can insert Kalibrs in Granit tubes. The question is, can they keep just one or two UKSK and take the aft ones away too free some space for increasing the air wing. IMO it would be worth giving up few missiles to get an extra fighter, especially now that they are producing blue water Kalibr carriers at higher pace.
    Nakhimov Granit tubes were completely removed and VLS UKSK are going in their place, its the Oscars getting tube liners.
    Presumably either could be done on K, the latter may be more attractive, being less work.

    Would be done to maintain its design concept as having anti-ship missiles as main weaponry.
    I don't think there is really such a thing as 'too many missiles'.

    Look at the pic you posted a few back, 7 is the hangar and there is a bunch of stuff between it and the Granits, it'd be a huge effort to rework that interior to provide any more hangar space.
    I could buy turning the volume (& mass allowance) into more tankage for avgas and/or bombs etc though.
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    Post  verkhoturye51 on Sun Apr 21, 2019 5:07 pm


    Look at the pic you posted a few back, 7 is the hangar and there is a bunch of stuff between it and the Granits, it'd be a huge effort to rework that interior to provide any more hangar space.

    Yes I realise that, but perhaps other stuff could be removed, too. They're modernizing 1980s ship and if done properly, a lot of things could be removed, automatised, so less crew is required, too. I believe the most expensive part of modernization is installing expensive new electronics and weapons and even missiles (remember 1 mio $ Zumwalt grenades for main guns)...changing interior organisation perhaps wouldn't be so hard/expensive.

    Kalibrs are good, but having more deck fighters on their single aircraft carrier? It's like comparing S-400 and Su-35. The latter just offers so many options.
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    Post  Vladimir79 on Sun Apr 21, 2019 7:12 pm

    OKB is going to have some hard infrastructure choices to make. Either they invest a billion into building a modern dry dock big enough for carriers or they give up on it altogether. It doesn't look like they want to invest in anything bigger than accommodating a Mistral. PD-41 was decommed in 2010, there is no bringing that back to life.
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    Post  verkhoturye51 on Sun Apr 21, 2019 7:32 pm

    Rakhmanov has said they decided to join two dry docks together at 35th Ship repair center.
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    Post  Guest on Sun Apr 21, 2019 7:39 pm

    verkhoturye51 wrote:Rakhmanov has said they decided to join two dry docks together at 35th Ship repair center.

    Rosatom tho said that wont be suitable for maintenance of their Project 22220 for which they wanted to use PD-50. And they cant make so large floating dock themself at this point.
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    Post  verkhoturye51 on Sun Apr 21, 2019 7:44 pm

    The icebreakers are smaller by all dimensions.
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    Post  Guest on Sun Apr 21, 2019 8:57 pm

    verkhoturye51 wrote:The icebreakers are smaller by all dimensions.

    Dont kill the messenger, there is apparently reason why its not suitable if Rosatom said so. I do not know exact reason.

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