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    Indian Navy and Naval Aicraft: News

    GarryB
    GarryB

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    Indian Navy and Naval Aicraft: News - Page 15 Empty Re: Indian Navy and Naval Aicraft: News

    Post  GarryB Thu Jan 07, 2021 11:29 am

    - u forgot about Pakistan, the Nicobars, Maldives & Sri Lanka. In a certain way, the latter is India's Taiwan.

    All well within land based aircraft range.

    If they were really interested in land based long range strike then Tu-22M3Ms could be purchased... with production set up for Blackjacks they could probably modify the design structure to allow a one piece Titanium swing wing box structure to make it stronger and lighter than the existing setup...

    .- u forgot about the need to protect other ships & subs which r useful in outflanking & attacking enemy ashore with LACMs.

    Again, would be easier to buy some Backfires that could fly out at relatively high speed and launch missiles and them come back home quickly limiting the ability of the enemy to return fire... or even detect where the attack came from...

    - I was saying the same thing last year, but the Indians think otherwise; feel free to contact their politicians, scholars, admirals & generals to convince them otherwise. It would be interesting to read their responses should u ever get it.

    I have no money to bribe them with... they wouldn't even bother to read what I said...

    Does that make them right and me wrong though?

    - if India decides to invade Sri Lanka, her CV/Ns will play a similar role.

    Why would India invade anyone?

    When was the last time they invaded anyone?

    - it helps her elites to stay in power; Germany, UK & France fought many wars over 100s of years before reaching a settlement between themselves.

    When your leaders can only remain in power by creating enemies and tensions with neighbours then it is time to shoot your leaders and start again... applies to the US and UK and France BTW...

    - like during Iran-Iraq War.

    Neither Iran nor Iraq were nuclear powers, but they were both people the US could care less about so encouraging conflict was seen to be in their interests...

    who else besides the PRC & Pakistan+ their proxies is India arming herself against?

    Considering the way the west treats them they should be protecting themselves against the west... look at past treatment... friends like that... who needs enemies...

    .- Taiwan bought both French & American fighters; it now has more F-16s than Mirages- why didn't they buy the Rafales instead?

    Don't know, but at a guess I would say cost.... those French could get blood from a stone... The Indians liked the Mirage 2000 and wanted to produce it locally... it was France that said no, you have to buy its replacement and you have to pay top dollar... they wanted 126 and ended up buying 36 for almost the price they wanted to spend getting 126 of them...

    The FN has 1 CVN while the USN has 10 active CVNs+10 more LHA/Ds & SSN/SSGNs, besides dozens of B-1B/2/52s that deploy to the W. Pac & IO all the time. So, who is a better ally to buy from?

    Ask their allies in Vietnam and China and Cuba and other places they abandoned when it was no longer in their interests... Ask Argentina.... on paper the US should have helped Argentina against the UK in the Falklands... but when push comes to shove they drop you like a hot rock.

    India is better off expecting to be fighting on her own than rely on France or the US.

    - F-18E/Fs could be liked & adopted by the IAF too

    Very unlikely, for a start an F-16 would be cheaper to buy and cheaper to operate... which is largely why it outsold the larger twin engined naval cousin around the world.

    For the purchase of the S-400, the US can ; at least producing some parts maybe in the cards.

    Did you read that article?

    It essentially says that the US could respond to India buying S-400 missiles to defend itself from China that the US would respond by banning India from getting some of the weapons they spent a ridiculous amount of money buying 36 Rafales to get... that would be essentially 8.4 billion dollars down the tubes... but you think that will make them want to buy more American shit?

    What is wrong with your thought processes... that is like someone is strangling you with one hand around your throat and your response is to say... Hey... you have a hand free.... let me undo my pants so you can grab my balls with your other hand...

    -if nothing else, effectively demonstrate being able to stand up to China & show Russia that India can be independent in choosing her allies of convenience.

    Or gives them stronger strings to pull when trying to control India in its decisions and plans for the future... literally a rope for your neck... that can and will be used to direct and lead like the lead on a dog... but could be used to string you up and hang you too.

    Who needs fighter aircraft you need permission to use?

    -they'll be no different than the Israelis & Iranians who integrated their armaments & avionics on American supplied fighters.

    Israel holds the leads to the Americans necks and Iran cut the lead and had no choice but to develop their own alternatives...

    India will lose all support and spares if they try to do it themselves the way the Iranians did... the US makes most of its money on support... ask the Iraqis.

    -not if the US gives her a few CV/Ns to even the odds.

    Even if they gave them 10 CVNs... which they can't because they don't have 10 operational CVNs themselves, India doesn't have the support vessels to operate 10 CVNs and even if they did... 10 Yakhonts would sink them easily because India does not have the 100 cruisers armed with huge radars and SAMs that would be needed to defend them.

    In any case, the USN, RN, FN, & JMSDF will be keeping/sending carriers in/to the IO even if India has a token force deployable at any given time.

    When it is convenient... but of course a real war starting between China and India and watch them run away...

    -no, it's not a 0 sum game; just like China played the Soviet & American cards against each other,

    China was a pawn in that game and had the option to say no and remain insignificant... they made the right choice for themselves obviously but they couldn't take that choice on their own... it was an offer made by the US.

    India can play American & Chinese cards against each other, while still maintaining good relations with Iran, Russia, Japan, Taiwan, Australia, the Arabs & Israelis.

    They think they can, but such things are polarising ... by allying themselves with the west essentially... they are joining the other team... like the Ukraine and Georgia... of course they were told they wont have to give up ties with anyone else... but the west is a jealous bitch and pretty soon India will have to start cutting ties with allies if they want to stay in the club.... I mean WTF do you think the US CAATSA policy is all about... separate countries from Russia to isolate Russia and deny her allies and partners. Once India is separated from Russia what sort of contribution do you think they will be able to make to BRICS?

    This is about breaking up BRICS and obviously the easiest way of doing that is to get I and C to fight each other... which is fine because they are adult countries that can do as they please, but for the US it is not about protecting the world from the evil of China... it is breaking up an economic and political system that separates them from 1.5 and 1.2 billion potential customers in the shape of China and India.

    Obviously they are going to make China the bad guy because China doesn't need US made products... it already makes most of them now, so the export potential for the US to that market is small and getting smaller. In India though there are 1.2 billion people who need to buy $300 gym shoes and $400 blue jeans and $3,000 Apple phones...

    .-their avionics can be modified; their CH-47s can also be modified, with bigger radar antenna, & a few V-22s could be sold to them as well.

    V-22s are enormously expensive... you would get 20 Ka-31s for the price of one V-22 and all the supposed advantages of the V-22 make no difference in the AEW role... it would be like using a Rolls Royce Limosine to pull a plough in a field. Turning a CH-47 into an AEW aircraft would be expensive too... because everything America does is expensive.

    The F-18Fs can also be used as mini AWACS, just like IrAF F-14s were in Iran-Iraq War.

    If fighter planes could be used as proper AWACS platforms then why would AWACS planes have ever been invented... they are big and slow and expensive.... they must have some reason for being...

    -it'll be swaying back & forth for years between worse & better relations with all 3 of them maneuvering to gain more benefits to themselves.

    Hopefully India will realise the choice is being a pole in a multipolar world, or just being a part of the west... ie one of Americas bitches that does as they are told like the EU does. Perhaps the EU might grow a pair and realise it does not need to have American protection from Russia... but they are fucking stupid so I wont be holding my breath. I would think India has its eyes open and doesn't hand its own testicles to the US and lose its independence to protect it from China... a country that has never shown any interest in invading and occupying India.

    But idiots are everywhere...

    .- again, u r preaching to the choir here.

    So if you understand that the US is seducing India to fuck them over and control them and get them out of BRICS, why are you suggesting it might be a good idea for their navy and air force to buy american shit that is older than the Russian aircraft they have now?

    For the trillions in the new cold war this is going to create with China they could fund an upgrade of the planes they have to do what they want and still have money left over to fix other things without starting a fight with either of their neighbours...


    A follow on heavier fighter will take 10-15 years to develop & mature, & that's why the F-18E/F deal is a interim good solution.

    No it isn't... continuing to use MiG-29KRs which are still rather new makes much more sense than handing their balls to the US... the US will likely screw up their deal with France over the Rafales anyway, why give them more planes to ground or render useless?
    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion Thu Jan 07, 2021 10:57 pm

    GarryB wrote:All well within land based aircraft range.- w/o tanker support, they won't be able to stay around those islands for long. CV/Ns will solve the persistence problem.
    If they were really interested in land based long range strike then Tu-22M3Ms could be purchased...- or modify their Tu-142s; their P-8s & IL-76s can be modified for that for a lot le$$, or they could order some Su-34s. But, if they get F-18E/Fs, the IN & AF may get those made in India: Depending on the number of machines ordered by both the Navy and the IAF, Boeing will set up a completely new production facility in India for the production of its F/A-18 Super Hornets with the aim that the new facility can be used for other programs like India’s Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) program.
    https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/magazines/panache/should-iaf-invest-15-bn-in-buying-the-f/a-18-super-hornet/articleshow/70355847.cms?utm_source=contentofinterest&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=cppst


    Again, would be easier to buy some Backfires that could fly out at relatively high speed and launch missiles and them come back home quickly limiting the ability of the enemy to return fire...- their Su-30s & future F-18s can do that too, but having CV/N AWs a lot closer will give more flexibility in the A2D effort as well as aiding in attacking whoever.
    I have no money to bribe them with... they wouldn't even bother to read what I said... Does that make them right and me wrong though?-I appreciate ur overall reasoning, but they r right according to their own logic; there many different solutions & it's not against their Hinduist nature to try many of them at once, which offers the possibility of finding the best option sooner, by trial & error, if u will.
    - if India decides to invade Sri Lanka, her CV/Ns will play a similar role.
    Why would India invade anyone?-Sri Lanka is an unsinkable CV of PRC, just like Taiwan is for Japan & USA.
    When was the last time they invaded anyone?-usually, the strongest volcano eruption happens after a long dormant period.
    When your leaders can only remain in power by creating enemies and tensions with neighbours then it is time to shoot your leaders and start again... applies to the US and UK and France BTW...- killing Indira Ghandi & Zia Ul Huk still didn't help matters.
    Considering the way the west treats them they should be protecting themselves against the west... look at past treatment... friends like that... who needs enemies...Ask their allies in Vietnam and China and Cuba and other places they abandoned when it was no longer in their interests...India is better off expecting to be fighting on her own than rely on France or the US.-they hope to get the tech transfer & trade deals before & if the plug is pulled, so it's worth it. Hitler & Hirohito did the same thing with the West, & it took the same West 4 years to defeat them.
    The Indians liked the Mirage 2000 and wanted to produce it locally... it was France that said no, you have to buy its replacement and you have to pay top dollar... they wanted 126 and ended up buying 36 for almost the price they wanted to spend getting 126 of them...-it shows that the Americans r better at negotiating.
    - F-18E/Fs could be liked & adopted by the IAF too
    Very unlikely, for a start an F-16 would be cheaper to buy and cheaper to operate... which is largely why it outsold the larger twin engined naval cousin around the world.-the Indians have the light Tejas, but want a new naval fighter with 2 engines, & I don't blame them! The USN & USAF used the F-4s; PLANAF & PLAAF use the Su-30/35s, J-11/15/16s- why can't F-18E/Fs be used by IN & IAF? The older F-18C/Ds were good enough for several AFs & r likely to be replaced by F-18E/Fs.
    but you think that will make them want to buy more American shit?- for the right price & bribes, anything is possible, esp. since the US tweaks sanctions all the time.
    Israel holds the leads to the Americans necks..-it was still pressured to cancel the successful Lavi program & buy the F-16s instead. In that case, Israel was a paper tiger. China gained a lot from its design to build the J-10, w/o losing her independence.
    Who needs fighter aircraft you need permission to use? ..India will lose all support and spares if they try to do it themselves the way the Iranians did...-once she starts producing them, India can use them as she sees fit.
    -not if the US gives her a few CV/Ns to even the odds.
    ..India does not have the 100 cruisers armed with huge radars and SAMs that would be needed to defend them.- she has A-50 AWACS, & will be operating with the USN, RN, FN, & JMSDF CGs & DDGs.
    When it is convenient... but of course a real war starting between China and India and watch them run away...-I wouldn't count on that, as the stakes r a lot higher now than before.
    In India though there are 1.2 billion people who need to buy $300 gym shoes and $400 blue jeans and $3,000 Apple phones...- most of them r too poor to afford them, so that isn't an option.Recall M. Ghandi making his own clothes & salt instead of buying them from the Brits. But weapon systems r different, as they still have a lot of caching up to do.
    V-22s are enormously expensive... you would get 20 Ka-31s for the price of one V-22 and all the supposed advantages of the V-22 make no difference in the AEW role...-they could use them as transports instead of those CH-47s modified for EW.
    Turning a CH-47 into an AEW aircraft would be expensive too... because everything America does is expensive.-if they get dirt cheap or free CV/Ns, compared to that savings, it will be small potatoes to put Indian &/ imported comm./EW gear on them.
    If fighter planes could be used as proper AWACS platforms then why would AWACS planes have ever been invented...- a handgun isn't as good as a rifle, but better than no gun at all; not as proper AWACS, but together with A-50s, "if the shoe fits, wear it!"
    Hopefully India will realise the choice is being a pole in a multipolar world, or just being a part of the west...- she'll be a smaller pole at best, like Brazil & S. Africa, with "short end of the stick".
    I would think India ..doesn't.. lose its independence to protect it from China...- the latter didn't lose her independence to the US while the fear was that the USSR could invade her from Mongolia at anytime & take Beijing with Harbin. Delhi & Calcutta r in better position.
    a country that has never shown any interest in invading and occupying India.- true, but there r border disputes with her & her ally Pakistan; both hold big land areas India claims as her own & their naval activity increase in the IO each year. They r holding India in a vise, leaving her no other choice but resist the pressure by allying with the enemies of her enemy.
    ..why are you suggesting it might be a good idea for their navy and air force to buy american shit that is older than the Russian aircraft they have now?- the F-18E/Fs Block III r not; those she'll produce will be brand new.
    For the trillions in the new cold war this is going to create with China they could fund an upgrade of the planes they have to do what they want and still have money left over to fix other things without starting a fight with either of their neighbours...- "if u want peace, be prepared for war"; upgrading takes more time & may not be as effective; as an example, if there were IL-476s ready then, fewer, if any, C-17s would be bought.

    A follow on heavier fighter will take 10-15 years to develop & mature, & that's why the F-18E/F deal is an interim good solution.
    No it isn't... continuing to use MiG-29KRs which are still rather new makes much more sense than handing their balls to the US... the US will likely screw up their deal with France over the Rafales anyway, why give them more planes to ground or render useless?
    Iran still uses its F-4/5/14s, P-3s & CH-47s; & Venezuela still uses its F-16s. Why do u think the Indians r going to be less capable of keeping their F-18E/Fs, P-8s, & CH-47s in the air even after losing the US favors?


    Last edited by Tsavo Lion on Fri Jan 08, 2021 2:03 am; edited 1 time in total
    Isos
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    Post  Isos Thu Jan 07, 2021 11:20 pm

    Iran and Venezuela are canibalizing their fleet and have only a small amount in flying conditions and barely use them.
    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion Thu Jan 07, 2021 11:42 pm

    Even if so, if those F-18E/Fs r going to be produced locally, it's a moot point.
    Isos
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    Post  Isos Fri Jan 08, 2021 12:10 am

    Tsavo Lion wrote:Even if so, if those F-18E/Fs r going to be produced locally, it's a moot point.

    They won't be poroduced. Just assembly will take place there. Like they do with MKI.

    No aircraft producer will offer a production line to a country that could become a competitor. Assembly line sucks and makes the aircraft cost 2 times more (but it creates some jobs).
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Fri Jan 08, 2021 2:13 am

    w/o tanker support, they won't be able to stay around those islands for long. CV/Ns will solve the persistence problem.

    What persistance problem? These planes are going to be delivering air strikes with stand off missiles... would be cheaper to use cruise missiles launched from ships operating under air cover provided by land based aircraft...

    And what is this without tanker support... they have inflight refuelling aircraft... why would they not use them?

    - or modify their Tu-142s

    Tu-22M3s are more capable and while having a shorter flight range, which could be solved with the inflight refuelling probe being restored, they can operate with a good payload over much larger distances than conventional fighters...

    their P-8s & IL-76s can be modified for that for a lot le$$, or they could order some Su-34s

    Of course they can save money... they could save even more money by not starting this stupid cold war with their neighbour in the first place...

    But, if they get F-18E/Fs, the IN & AF may get those made in India: Depending on the number of machines ordered by both the Navy and the IAF, Boeing will set up a completely new production facility in India for the production of its F/A-18 Super Hornets with the aim that the new facility can be used for other programs like India’s Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) program.

    That article you posted a while back said 15 billion for a lease of aircraft... now you are talking enough planes to justify production in India... are you taking the weewee?

    Should India invest 15 billion in F-18s.. WTF.... they refused to invest anything into a 5th gen fighter with Russia but are happy to piss away 8.4 billion on 36 euro canards and 15 billion on ancient American shit... my word... it just shows the power of western propaganda bullshit doesn't it... while trying to sell them weapons they are telling them they can't defend themselves with Russian S-400 missiles because it breaks American law...

    - their Su-30s & future F-18s can do that too, but having CV/N AWs a lot closer will give more flexibility in the A2D effort as well as aiding in attacking whoever.

    The Tu-22M3 has much better strike range performance than either of those two fighters, and at 15 billion dollars for the Hornets the Tu-22M3s would probably be cheaper because I suspect there will be another 15 billion dollar charge for EMALS... and I know why America is keen for them to pay because essentially they will be getting Indian Engineers to fix all the problems with their EMALS and they want the Indian taxpayer to pay for it all...

    -I appreciate ur overall reasoning, but they r right according to their own logic; there many different solutions & it's not against their Hinduist nature to try many of them at once, which offers the possibility of finding the best option sooner, by trial & error, if u will.

    Play with Fire and get burned.... Cuba was a US mob paradise of casinos and sunbathing before Castro, Russia was not the worlds number one enemy before Putin, Iran was the worlds best friend when the CIA was pulling the strings and controlling their leader till 1979, Saddam was the good guy when he was fighting the evil Iranians in the 1980s, the Taleban were the heros that continued to fight Russian influence in Afghanistan, and Osama Bin Laden was the Saudi hero that built tunnels and bunkers in Afghanistan in the 1980s to fight the Soviets... till they made the wrong choice and became the most dangerous force in the universe.

    ISIS can blow up bombs and stab people and use motor vehicles as weapons to kill and injure in Europe but it is Russia that is the real danger...

    Do you think these sort of people will appreciate being stringed along for free goodies and favours... they will want blood payments...

    -Sri Lanka is an unsinkable CV of PRC, just like Taiwan is for Japan & USA.

    And India is an unsinkable carrier for use against the PRC or anyone else and is positioned closer to China... Sri Lanka can be isolated and starved if needed by using submarines and land based air power...

    And it would be fairly straight forward to obliterate most targets on that island with the many ballistic missiles India already possesses.

    -usually, the strongest volcano eruption happens after a long dormant period.

    That is the dumbest thing I have ever heard. I could say that you have probably never spontaneously burst into flames before... so you must be about to... right?

    .- killing Indira Ghandi & Zia Ul Huk still didn't help matters.

    When dealing with a complete system there is no point pulling out one part... modern human systems are designed to automatically replace missing parts with like parts... so you have to take out the whole system.

    .-they hope to get the tech transfer & trade deals before & if the plug is pulled,

    The US doesn't do tech transfer... just like France doesn't... for them India is a cash cow, not an ally. But India sucking up to the west will mean Russia will have to change its policy from ally to just another customer too... the risk for India is much greater than they think.... just like the pro west(france) and pro east(Russia) lobby in India there are similar groups in Russia...

    so it's worth it. Hitler & Hirohito did the same thing with the West, & it took the same West 4 years to defeat them.

    What a good example... the west created Hitler and actually like Hirohito because they saw that both were anti Soviet so they thought the enemy of my enemy is my friend... which is the second dumbest thing you can think... for instance ISIS is worse than Russian or Iranian forces in Syria, yet the west funds and supports them. Ironically the west showed that when WWII kicked off that they could get along with the communist Soviets... in fact they needed them to do the bulk of the heavy lifting and during that time they describe the situation as "they are bastards... but they are our bastards...".

    Makes you wonder why they couldn't simply continue to cooperate during peace time and avoid the entire cold war...

    .-it shows that the Americans r better at negotiating.

    The Americans have bigger bribes... Why do you think America was not included in negotiations in Syria or Nagorno Karabach?

    They are terrible at negotiations and are breaking agreements all the time as fast as they can rip them up.

    [quot-the Indians have the light Tejas, but want a new naval fighter with 2 engines, & I don't blame them! [/quote]

    The MiG-35 is younger than the Hornet.

    The USN & USAF used the F-4s; PLANAF & PLAAF use the Su-30/35s, J-11/15/16s- why can't F-18E/Fs be used by IN & IAF? The older F-18C/Ds were good enough for several AFs & r likely to be replaced by F-18E/Fs.

    Because without cats it is likely inferior to the MiG they currently use, while likely being significantly more expensive.

    They bought the Gorshkov carrier for 2.4 billion... with a cost overrun on modification of 1 billion the original deal was 700 million for the ship itself and another 700 million for 14 MiG29KRs and about five Ka-31s plus several Ka-27s for SAR and sub hunting.

    14 Rafales would cost about 16 billion in comparison...

    - for the right price & bribes, anything is possible, esp. since the US tweaks sanctions all the time.

    The bribes going to the people making the decision are secret and do not compensate the Indian taxpayers for the billions it will go on to cost them to buy these aircraft and modify their carriers... and all the other bullshit that will come with it...

    -it was still pressured to cancel the successful Lavi program & buy the F-16s instead. In that case, Israel was a paper tiger. China gained a lot from its design to build the J-10, w/o losing her independence.

    If the jews had dug in their heels they would have gotten their way...

    -once she starts producing them, India can use them as she sees fit.

    No she can't. India wont be producing them... they will call them factories and they will say they are making them but in actual fact they will just be assembling them...

    - she has A-50 AWACS, & will be operating with the USN, RN, FN, & JMSDF CGs & DDGs.

    But what magic is this... I thought they had to buy US gear to be compatible and had to stop using Russian gear... which means to start out they might try A-50s but then they will have to buy US AWACS aircraft to improve compatibility and standardisation... another huge cost of course... but you have probably already invested 30 billion in this pieces of crap... what is another 20 billion to make it work...

    It is OK though... we can reduce the price if you start buying genetically modified crop seed, and sign contracts that mean you can't sue us if some people start growing extra arms or legs or are born dead...

    -I wouldn't count on that, as the stakes r a lot higher now than before.

    What stakes? In a shooting war between China and India, the US is not going to send any troops or weapons with their own troops on board into harms way... just sit back and watch the show....

    Try to hide your smile when either side lands a solid hit that kills a lot of their enemies troops or civilian population...

    .- most of them r too poor to afford them , so that isn't an option.Recall M. Ghandi making his own clothes & salt instead of buying them from the Brits. But weapon systems r different, as they still have a lot of caching up to do.

    You could have said the Chinese were too poor too... but in the space of a very short time they actually have more millionaires and billionaires than the US does... there are plenty of very rich Indians... the 1% applies everywhere but 1% of 400 million Americans is 4 million... 1% of 1.2 billion is 12 million...

    .-they could use them as transports instead of those CH-47s modified for EW.

    So take a very very expensive tandem helicopter and spend money to make it AEW, and replace it with an even more expensive tilt rotor design for use as a transport. The obvious problem is that the CH-47 would not be any better in the AEW role than the Ka-31 but it is much bigger... taking up a lot more space on any ship it is based on, and it will burn much more fuel essentially doing the same job in the same way that an Mi-26 would burn more fuel taking a 10 ton payload where ever you might want to take it with a Chinook. The obvious solution with the AEW is to use the cheaper already in service use Ka-31, and the obvious solution with the Mi-26 is to carry two of the payloads the Chinook is carrying... one Mi-26 would use more fuel than one Chinook carrying a 10 ton payload, but less fuel carrying a 20 ton payload compared with the two Chinooks needed to carry such a payload... while the helicopter itself is cheaper to buy and has cheaper parts...

    [quoet]-if they get dirt cheap or free CV/Ns, compared to that savings, it will be small potatoes to put Indian &/ imported comm./EW gear on them.[/quote]

    Even a free CVN will cost 2 billion a year to operate, and when it comes time to refuel its reactors brace yourself for all the zeros after the first numbers...

    Replacing obsolete existing components with India gear will cost a lot of money and will require full testing and redesign and I doubt the American companies that make that gear will be happy with India putting Indian or French gear on their carrier... there will be a clause that India will have to use US approved kit... which is secret code for only US company gear will be approved. India already bought a landing ship from the US and the requirements for the transfer included never actually using the ship in real combat... do you think they have lightened up since then?

    - a handgun isn't as good as a rifle, but better than no gun at all; not as proper AWACS, but together with A-50s, "if the shoe fits, wear it!"

    In real combat you only need one bullet in a pistol. If it is together with A-50s.... do you even think about what you type before you type it... essentially you said they don't need AWACS planes because fighters and drones can do it all and now you say as long as they have A-50 AWACS aircraft operating with their fighters they don't need AWACS and AWACS is obsolete...

    You are essentially saying AWACS is critical... and it is... what moron would base a defence around a radar that can only see 120 degrees at a time... I mean apart from the morons that developed the Patriot air defence system of course.

    - she'll be a smaller pole at best, like Brazil & S. Africa, with "short end of the stick".

    There is no reason for them to be a smaller pole than China... and I am sure if they play the game sensibly they will be treated with respect as equals by Russia and by China... but never by their new western friends who will always see them as their former colony... and future potential bitch.

    - the latter didn't lose her independence to the US while the fear was that the USSR could invade her from Mongolia at anytime & take Beijing with Harbin. Delhi & Calcutta r in better position.

    What is this horseshit... there were never any Soviet plans to invade... Europe or China or Alaska... and if there were then there would be very little the west or china could do to stop them... except with Alaska because they simply didn't have the landing forces to pull it off... air or sea...

    China has no interest in invading India either.... it is just bullshit the west makes up to create an enemy where there is none to turn countries against each other to keep them weak and isolated and therefore easier to exploit.

    .- true, but there r border disputes with her & her ally Pakistan; both hold big land areas India claims as her own & their navies r getting more active in the IO each year. ]

    Aww come off it... the US has border claims with Canada and Mexico and their navy is active around the world... war must be imminent...

    They r holding India in a vise, leaving her has no other choice but resist the pressure by allying with the enemies of her enemy.

    Selling your soul to the devil is never the answer to any problem... India could crush Pakistan easily and has enough nukes to make China not want to invade and try to take over their entire country. Small quibbles over where lines on a map go in some specific locations is not a good reason to piss away trillions of dollars on US shit most of which is useless. What if China launches drones and India has bought all the same US air defence shit that Saudi Arabia spends trillions of dollars on... will they even notice the attack?

    - the F-18E/Fs Block III r not; those she'll produce will be brand new.

    A brand new scratch built WWII biplane is still a biplane.

    And American planes come with so many strings you might mistake them for a parachute, but when the brown stuff hits the bladed air cooling device, those strings automatically retract and rip your balls off and strangle you... but they still are not free, so you get no protection and loans to pay off for the next 50 years.

    "if u want peace, be prepared for war";

    There is no value in peace when you piss away all your money on expensive non functional US weapons to fight a war against a country that is not your enemy... you will end up like the US needing to start wars to justify your military spending which will cost even more.

    upgrading takes more time & may not be as effective; as an example, if there were IL-476s ready then, fewer, if any, C-17s would be bought.

    For the money they spent on C-17 they could have bought five times as many An-124s... cost effectiveness and reason have nothing to do with their purchasing programme.

    Iran still uses its F-4/5/14s, P-3s & CH-47s

    At enormous expense they have learned to support those aircraft, but they are not employing them extensively and would likely love to buy replacement aircraft whose support will be honoured by the makers of the planes.

    & Venezuela still uses its F-16s.

    They bought Flankers for a reason...

    Why do u think the Indians r going to be less capable of keeping their F-18E/Fs, P-8s, & CH-47s in the air after losing the US favors?

    The US has essentially crushed the economies of both countries through direct sanctions and threats to other countries trading with those countries... if they weren't producing oil they would be screwed. India does not export oil.

    India could not develop and grow under sanctions Russia is going through... in comparison Russia has actually become stronger and more independent and a little bit bitter about the American dream and the promises of the west... perhaps you are right... India has to have their Ukraine moment before they realise what is best for India... but the Ukraine is so brainwashed they don't even recognise it now...

    Even if so, if those F-18E/Fs r going to be produced locally, it's a moot point.

    At best they might be assembled in India and India wont be able to put in Indian and French and Israeli parts either...

    Assembly line sucks and makes the aircraft cost 2 times more (but it creates some jobs).

    Costs three times more which negates any money the workers might earn...
    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion Fri Jan 08, 2021 7:02 am

    GarryB wrote:What persistance problem? These planes are going to be delivering air strikes with stand off missiles... would be cheaper to use cruise missiles launched from ships operating under air cover provided by land based aircraft...they could save even more money by not starting this stupid cold war with their neighbour in the first place...- the Indians want to be able to patrol their IO anywhere anytime & challenge any1 they perceive as a threat. Even if they become the best of friends with the PRC & Pakistan, appearing of being weaker isn't going to do them any good.
    Tu-22M3s are more capable and while having a shorter flight range, which could be solved with the inflight refuelling probe being restored, they can operate with a good payload over much larger distances than conventional fighters...- since they now have a CV & plan to get more, why duplicate the effort & waste resources? they hadn't bothered with Tu-16/22s before, while much poorer Indonesia, Egypt, Libya & Iraq did.

    That article you posted a while back said 15 billion for a lease of aircraft... now you are talking enough planes to justify production in India...- don't believe everything u read; the deal costs r not set yet & I doubt they'll agree on a lease/purchase alone for that much, esp. after overpaying for the AH-64s, CH-47s & C-17s.
    ..15 billion on ancient American shit...-the Block III isn't ancient at all-get over it!
    The Tu-22M3 has much better strike range performance than either of those two fighters, ..-if they really wanted that capability, there r Russian MiG-31s with Kinzhals &/ Brahmoses with plenty of older IAF MiG-25 pilots to help train the new 1s.

    I suspect there will be another 15 billion dollar charge for EMALS...-the Indians will be happy with cheaper used & proven steam catapults off inactive/transferred US CV/Ns.

    Play with Fire and get burned....-if Israel could use American made aircraft to beat the Arabs, why shouldn't India try to adopt them to confront threats they believe they face?  
    And India is an unsinkable carrier for use against the PRC or anyone else and is positioned closer to China...- but she's vulnerable w/o a strong blue water navy, just like the PRC itself is.
    And it would be fairly straight forward to obliterate most targets on that island with the many ballistic missiles India already possesses.- w/o boots on the ground, China may turn it to a fortress again. That's why the USSR took the S. Sakhalin & Kurils & the US took Puerto Rico & Guam.

    That is the dumbest thing I have ever heard. I could say that you have probably never spontaneously burst into flames before... so you must be about to... right?-anything is possible, as "war is politics by other means". India did invade Bangladesh & Argentina hadn't invaded any1 for over a 100 years before 1982.

    so you have to take out the whole system.- Gorbachev did & lost his job & country. India would end up the same.

    The US doesn't do tech transfer... just like France doesn't...-France does it with subs in Pakistan, Brazil & Australia AFAIK. The US won't make friends with India w/o it, & they need friends in Asia that r not afraid of China. at some point, India may do the same with F-18s what Israel did with F-1 Mirages.
    But India sucking up to the west will mean Russia will have to change its policy from ally to just another customer too...-Iraq, Egypt, Finland, Malaysia & Indonesia were buying Soviet & Western arms for decades; Russia will need to take it & move on with her life.
    for instance ISIS is worse than Russian or Iranian forces in Syria, yet the west funds and supports them.- no, outside funding comes from certain Arab states.
    Makes you wonder why they couldn't simply continue to cooperate during peace time and avoid the entire cold war...- because independent socialist USSR was a big threat to the Western run capitalism by its very existence.

    They are terrible at negotiations and are breaking agreements all the time as fast as they can rip them up.-China got some US tech help in the 1970-80s; Iran, Turkey & Pakistan still use American aircraft despite of having their relations with the US in the gutter, some for decades.
    The MiG-35 is younger than the Hornet.- they may feel that supporting Russia's MIC only is lie putting all eggs in 1 basket. Even if they do, Russia won't threaten the PRC like she did in 1979 over Vietnam. OTH, the US/NATO already threatens both China & Russia- it's a good time for India to put her tail on the side while still standing up like a horse & jump on that bandwagon.

    Because without cats it is likely inferior to the MiG they currently use, while likely being significantly more expensive.-FYI, their new CV/N will be CATOBAR.
    If the jews had dug in their heels they would have gotten their way...-they wisely chose not to bite the hand that feeds them.
    No she can't. India wont be producing them... they will call them factories and they will say they are making them but in actual fact they will just be assembling them...-or they'll modify & call them some other name like Israel did with its Kfirs & PRC does with its J-7/11/15/16s & H-6s.
    I thought they had to buy US gear to be compatible and had to stop using Russian gear...- their 3 A-50s have Israeli EL/W-2090 radar with 2 more on order, +2 EMB-145s with 1 on order. Iraq had IL-76MD Baghdad-1 (Adnan-1) with Thomson CSF TRS-2105/06 Tiger G radar while operating Soviet & French fighters.

    What stakes? In a shooting war between China and India, the US is not going to send any troops or weapons with their own troops on board into harms way...-I bet they'll assist remotely like they did with USSR in WWII.

    there are plenty of very rich Indians...-they'll buy Japanese, Korean & Chinese gadgets before they'll buy any American 1s.

    The obvious problem is that the CH-47 would not be any better in the AEW role than the Ka-31 but it is much bigger... taking up a lot more space on any ship it is based on, and it will burn much more fuel...-if the CATOBAR isn't ready, the CH-47 would have more range & could fly with extra tanks &/ IRP; it could be useful overland as well.
    Even a free CVN will cost 2 billion a year to operate, and when it comes time to refuel its reactors brace yourself for all the zeros after the first numbers...-they won't be crossing the Atlantic or Pacific like those in the USN; it'll take a lot longer between refueling is due.

    Replacing obsolete existing components with India gear will cost a lot of money and will require full testing and redesign and I doubt the American companies that make that gear will be happy with India putting Indian or French gear on their carrier... there will be a clause that India will have to use US approved kit... which is secret code for only US company gear will be approved.- fine, they'll use American aircraft on American equipped ships- by then, the portion of Russian equipped aircraft & ships will be small &/ not that important to affect anything. Those too could be given extra/improved gear to make them more compatible.
    India already bought a landing ship from the US and the requirements for the transfer included never actually using the ship in real combat...-I would like to read that stipulation- do u have a reference to share?

    what moron would base a defence around a radar that can only see 120 degrees at a time... -they could use 3 F-18s for 360 degree coverage if no other AWACS r in the area. Btw, India-US deal goes sore later, India could even buy/lease Iranian F-4/14s &/ barter them for some Su-30s. The Israelis could then help with their upgrading, if need be.

    There is no reason for them to be a smaller pole than China... and I am sure if they play the game sensibly they will be treated with respect as equals by Russia and by China...-the subcontinent and that is now "mighty" India was invaded, ruled  & robbed by her neighbors & later colonized by the West for 100s of years; it was partitioned into 3 states after 1947, had 3 wars with Pakistan & 1 with China, & now is reduced to siding with the US & Japan against the latter. It has no permanent seat at the UNSC & most of her population is poorer than China's. The sacred cows & monkeys roam the streets (also full of feral dogs) & have the right of way everywhere. Unsanitary conditions r common. Tigers, leopards & wild elephants maim & kill dozens of people every year. There r 300M poor Gypsies there & all over the World, a lot more than successful Indian diaspora. In the US, many Indians r drivers, hotel/restaurant staff, shops, & the like. The overseas Chinese have Chinatowns while the Gypsies have small villages inhabited by craftsmen, smiths, musicians, traders, & petty criminals. Sorry, but I don't expect India to be treated as = to Russia or China in my lifetime.
    - the latter didn't lose her independence to the US while the fear was that the USSR could invade her from Mongolia at anytime & take Beijing with Harbin. Delhi & Calcutta r in better position.
    What is this horseshit... there were never any Soviet plans to invade...- FYI, there was a plan to strike at Beijing from Mongolia in the event of Chinese aggression in the Soviet FE.
    China has no interest in invading India either...-she'll help Pakistan if the war happens over Kashmir. That's enough for the Indian leadership to sleep with 1 eye open.
    the US has border claims with Canada and Mexico and their navy is active around the world... war must be imminent...- I live near the Mexican border & traveled to/from Mexico & Canada many times- there r no outstanding claims, at least on the official level.
    A brand new scratch built WWII biplane is still a biplane.- by the same token, modernized An-2 biplanes & MiG-21/J-7s r still useful; so r the F-4/5/14/15/16/18s in many AFs.
    There is no value in peace when you piss away all your money on expensive non functional US weapons- they r the same type of weapons that were used since 1991 in the ME & Afghanistan; at least some of them were successful, even if misused.
    to fight a war against a country that is not your enemy...-if it's not ur friend, it's a potential enemy, esp. if it's closely allied with Pakistan armed with American, Russian, French & Chinese weapons that is a real enemy.
    For the money they spent on C-17 they could have bought five times as many An-124s... cost effectiveness and reason have nothing to do with their purchasing programme.-as I said before, they r buying political influence as added value to the actual product.
    Iran still uses its F-4/5/14s, P-3s & CH-47s
    At enormous expense they have learned to support those aircraft,..-that helped their aviation industry to develop; import substitution is better than import prostitution.
    & Venezuela still uses its F-16s.
    They bought Flankers for a reason...- they didn't completely replace them.
    India does not export oil.- but she produces other things & has big trade surplus with enough $ to buy many things she can't produce.
    perhaps you are right... India has to have their Ukraine moment before they realise what is best for India...
    she is unique & therefore must learn from her own mistakes.
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Sat Jan 09, 2021 10:54 am

    .- the Indians want to be able to patrol their IO anywhere anytime & challenge any1 they perceive as a threat.

    They don't really need aircraft carriers for that...

    Even if they become the best of friends with the PRC & Pakistan, appearing of being weaker isn't going to do them any good.

    I would agree but don't think pissing away billions of dollars on useless American shit makes them look stronger... it makes them look under Americas thumb and therefore an extension of America... which makes being best friends impossible... which is what America wants... they do the same in Europe... HATO is about keeping Russia and the EU apart... imagine if they cooperated... they would be more powerful than the US...

    .- since they now have a CV & plan to get more, why duplicate the effort & waste resources? they hadn't bothered with Tu-16/22s before, while much poorer Indonesia, Egypt, Libya & Iraq did.

    For the same reason both of the big nuclear super powers have nuclear triads and not nuclear eggs in one basket approaches.

    Carriers give world access to the Indian Navy but would take days to get from Pakistani waters to Chinese waters... a bomber would take hours or a day at most.

    .- don't believe everything u read; the deal costs r not set yet & I doubt they'll agree on a lease/purchase alone for that much, esp. after overpaying for the AH-64s, CH-47s & C-17s.

    Using your own words... they over paid for everything else... why would naval fighters and EMALS cats they haven't fully developed for themselves yet be suddenly cheap?   Maybe they will copy the F-35 and quote the engines as separate articles...

    .-the Block III isn't ancient at all-get over it!

    The aerodynamic design is ancient.

    -if they really wanted that capability, there r Russian MiG-31s with Kinzhals &/ Brahmoses with plenty of older IAF MiG-25 pilots to help train the new 1s.

    They could do that too.

    -the Indians will be happy with cheaper used & proven steam catapults off inactive/transferred US CV/Ns.

    So they get crappy old steam technology that everyone is moving away from... and that wont be free, though I suppose as a bonus it actually works.

    -if Israel could use American made aircraft to beat the Arabs, why shouldn't India try to adopt them to confront threats they believe they face?  

    Because they will only get US permission to fight China and not anyone else which makes them counter to Indian interests...

    - but she's vulnerable w/o a strong blue water navy, just like the PRC itself is.

    Bullshit. Buy MiG-31s and Kinzhal missiles and no enemy navy will get within 2,000km of Indian waters.

    Add inflight refuelling tankers and those MiG-31s could fly 1,500km offshore... top up from a tanker and then accelerate to top speed and launch their missiles... top up fuel and head back to Indian airfields at subsonic speeds and hit targets 3,500km away from the Indian coast... in less than 2 hours...

    That's why the USSR took the S. Sakhalin & Kurils & the US took Puerto Rico & Guam.

    The US use Guam as an airfield but there is nothing else there... a few persistant chemical weapon attacks and it would be rendered useless till it was decontaminated.

    The USSR took those islands because it was useful to prevent Japan having them and made access to the Pacific ocean safer and easier for their pacific fleet.

    There are no Russian airfields of any significant size there... or there weren't during the USSR period.

    -anything is possible,

    Which makes it pointless in discussions. It is possible you might be adolf hitler but is there any point in taking the possibility seriously? Especially when it is clearly very very very unlikely.

    India did invade Bangladesh

    Bangledesh and Pakistan are both India.

    Argentina hadn't invaded any1 for over a 100 years before 1982.

    The Falklands are more Argentinian geographically than British... British people live there so it was invasion by immigration... ironically the sort of thing Europeans are fighting tooth and nail these days....

    - Gorbachev did & lost his job & country. India would end up the same.

    And Russia is certainly better off for it...

    Russia will need to take it & move on with her life.

    Russia is not the one that will be suffering... look at Egypts experience with the US...

    no, outside funding comes from certain Arab states.

    The White Helmets co-locate with ISIS and act as their emergency services helping them clean up after executions, saving ISIS fighters and leaving civilians to die...

    - because independent socialist USSR was a big threat to the Western run capitalism by its very existence.

    Bullshit... socalist China is no threat to the west, and needed to be integrated in to it to be effective and efficient. The Soviets could have provided cheap skilled labour to the west and produced all their consumer shit the way China does now....

    -China got some US tech help in the 1970-80s; Iran, Turkey & Pakistan still use American aircraft despite of having their relations with the US in the gutter, some for decades.

    They hardly got a choice. And look at where they are now... Turkey is getting hostility from most of HATO now and the EU pretends to be keeping up its end of the agreement but they aren't with Iran, and how are Pakistan US relations going?

    What happened to BFF? Best Friends Forever... my ass...

    - they may feel that supporting Russia's MIC only is lie putting all eggs in 1 basket.

    Putting all your eggs in one basket is OK if that is a trusted basket that can be relied upon. Taking some of your eggs and giving it to a punk who likes to throw eggs at things does not make your eggs safer.

    Even if they do, Russia won't threaten the PRC like she did in 1979 over Vietnam. OTH, the US/NATO already threatens both China & Russia- it's a good time for India to put her tail on the side while still standing up like a horse & jump on that bandwagon.

    I disagree... the wests ship is sinking and America is printing money to buy drills to make more holes in the hope the water will run out of the ship... jumping on that ship is just stupid unless there is a captain who can fix things... like an American Putin but even if there is he can't solve all their problems in two terms so they are fucked because they essentially need two Putins in a row and you are lucky to get one.

    -FYI, their new CV/N will be CATOBAR.

    So you are saying they have committed to spending billions on cats...

    -they wisely chose not to bite the hand that feeds them.

    They bite that hand all the time... Israel is always doing things to piss off the US.

    .-or they'll modify & call them some other name like Israel did with its Kfirs & PRC does with its J-7/11/15/16s & H-6s.

    China has decades of experience of making their own planes. Most are knockoffs of other peoples planes but they are making them all themselves.

    .- their 3 A-50s have Israeli EL/W-2090 radar with 2 more on order, +2 EMB-145s with 1 on order . Iraq had IL-76MD Baghdad-1 (Adnan-1) with Thomson CSF TRS-2105/06 Tiger G radar while operating Soviet & French fighters.

    I know they could probably be made to work but the US does not want India using S-400s and they sure as hell wont want them using A-50s either... this is not actually about real compatibility issues... it is about forcing customers to buy more of their shit which will be more expensive and less capable... but it will be money in our pockets and not theirs.

    -I bet they'll assist remotely like they did with USSR in WWII.

    Yeah, they will do fuck all... sit on the sidelines and feed ammo and weapons into the fire to make it as big as they can because as far as they are concerned Indians dead, Chinese dead... less competition and rivals and lots of expensive rebuilding contracts they might be getting too.

    -they'll buy Japanese, Korean & Chinese gadgets before they'll buy any American 1s.

    If they don't buy American shit there will be problems.

    .-if the CATOBAR isn't ready, the CH-47 would have more range & could fly with extra tanks &/ IRP; it could be useful overland as well.

    Ka-31 is already in service... an AEW CH-47 does not exist. And range is irrelevant to a naval AEW aircraft... for the price of the CH-47 they could buy 20 Ka-31s so range will never be an issue.

    -they won't be crossing the Atlantic or Pacific like those in the USN; it'll take a lot longer between refueling is due.

    The handme down CVNs they get from the US wont have freshly been refuelled... one of the things that makes them worth removing from service is that they need an expensive and time consuming refuelling.

    And everything on board uses electrical power which means running reactors... and that includes the steam catapults... and unlike the Kuznetsov every aircraft taking off from a US carrier needs cat launch because they don't have ski jumps.

    .- fine, they'll use American aircraft on American equipped ships- by then, the portion of Russian equipped aircraft & ships will be small &/ not that important to affect anything. Those too could be given extra/improved gear to make them more compatible.

    An all American fleet will be too expensive... even the Americans can't afford it...

    -I would like to read that stipulation- do u have a reference to share?

    I read it on this forum.

    Do a search on Indian purchases of US landing ships.

    -they could use 3 F-18s for 360 degree coverage if no other AWACS r in the area.

    So three F-18s flying in three completely different directions.... but they can't do that without leaving the area. An AWACS plane will normally fly an orbit around the carrier group or a position to one side of the carrier group... having three F-18s flying in that orbit... or gigantic big circle would be a problem because even in low speed cruise these three planes are going to be burning a lot of fuel and probably would have less flight endurance than a Ka-31 which can remain on station for about 4 hours at a time...

    India could even buy/lease Iranian F-4/14s &/ barter them for some Su-30s.

    If relations with the US go bad those carriers will become useless very very quickly and Iran can barely keep the American planes they have flying there is no way they could offer to sell any to India and supply parts to keep them operational... that is just silly.

    The Israelis could then help with their upgrading, if need be.

    If India is in the shit with the US there is no way Israel will be helping... especially if they are talking to Iran about aircraft or parts.

    had 3 wars with Pakistan & 1 with China, & now is reduced to siding with the US & Japan against the latter.

    Japan and the US are no more allies of India than China is.

    [qutoe]It has no permanent seat at the UNSC & most of her population is poorer than China's. [/quote]

    It is Britain and France and the US that are keeping India off the UNSC... but if India gets in to bed with the west I could see Russia and China both objecting to their entry as part of the permanent members of the UNSC because if India is going to be Americas bitch then that would just be giving America an extra vote like the French and British votes do.

    The sacred cows & monkeys roam the streets (also full of feral dogs) & have the right of way everywhere. Unsanitary conditions r common. Tigers, leopards & wild elephants maim & kill dozens of people every year. There r 300M poor Gypsies there & all over the World, a lot more than successful Indian diaspora.

    That might be the situation now, but in China in the 1990s you looked out the window in a major city and the streets were wall to wall people on Bicycles.... now it is cars... probably a huge step backwards, but it happened.

    Change is inevitable.

    In the US, many Indians r drivers, hotel/restaurant staff, shops, & the like. The overseas Chinese have Chinatowns while the Gypsies have small villages inhabited by craftsmen, smiths, musicians, traders, & petty criminals. Sorry, but I don't expect India to be treated as = to Russia or China in my lifetime.

    The Indians in Fiji basically run the place and the native Fijians regularly have coups when an ethnic Indian leader is elected there.

    Chinatowns can and do have craftsmen and smiths and musicians and criminals etc etc too...

    - FYI, there was a plan to strike at Beijing from Mongolia in the event of Chinese aggression in the Soviet FE.

    They planned to defend themselves from outside aggression... should not be a problem unless you intended to invade them first... in which case it is your own fault.

    -she'll help Pakistan if the war happens over Kashmir. That's enough for the Indian leadership to sleep with 1 eye open.

    The boundaries are what they are in Kashmir... if Pakistan wants to invade and take more land they might find themselves losing land in return...

    Chinese influence would be minimal.

    .- I live near the Mexican border & traveled to/from Mexico & Canada many times- there r no outstanding claims, at least on the official level.

    Not from an American perspective... you stole that land fair and square... they might have different thoughts on the matter though.

    - by the same token, modernized An-2 biplanes & MiG-21/J-7s r still useful; so r the F-4/5/14/15/16/18s in many AFs.

    No good as a front line fighter in the 2030s... why get something ancient when you can buy something newer?

    - they r the same type of weapons that were used since 1991 in the ME & Afghanistan; at least some of them were successful, even if misused.

    Not used by India since 1991.

    -if it's not ur friend, it's a potential enemy, esp. if it's closely allied with Pakistan armed with American, Russian, French & Chinese weapons that is a real enemy.

    Bollocks. Pakistan is Indias enemy... they have made it clear by sending terrorists into India to kill people. They have made it clear by supplying weapons to terrorists in Kashmir. China supplies Pakistan... but so does the US. There is no reason to make China an enemy except to please the US who wants India and China broken and bleeding.

    -as I said before, they r buying political influence as added value to the actual product.

    But they aren't... the US could care less about India... no matter how many American trinkets they buy...

    [qutoe]..-that helped their aviation industry to develop; import substitution is better than import prostitution.[/quote]

    It didn't help their aviation industry develop. They can make F-5s and they can keep some of the planes they have flying most of the time, but you can't tell what sort of functionality they have with those planes... do their radars even work... could they launch weapons on targets at all?  Who knows...

    They are very capable people but they are seriously limited by what they had to start with... I would like to see Iran join MiG to develop the new LMFS... I am sure the Iranian engineers could contribute...

    - they didn't completely replace them.

    They couldn't afford to...

    - but she produces other things & has big trade surplus with enough $ to buy many things she can't produce.

    But she does not make that much money that they can piss away billions to suck up to an America that would screw them over in a heartbeat if it suited.

       

    she is unique & therefore must learn from her own mistakes.

    The definition of an idiot is one who never learns, but the definition of a fool is someone who learns only from their own mistakes. The Genius is the one that learns from the mistakes of others... ie countries that have recently sucked up to the west... Ukraine, Georgia, Syria, Libya... seeing a pattern yet?
    Tsavo Lion
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    Indian Navy and Naval Aicraft: News - Page 15 Empty Re: Indian Navy and Naval Aicraft: News

    Post  Tsavo Lion Sat Jan 09, 2021 11:59 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    .- the Indians want to be able to patrol their IO anywhere anytime & challenge any1 they perceive as a threat.
    They don't really need aircraft carriers for that...- if, as u state, the RF needs them to protect SLOCs, so does India with her overseas trade.
    Even if they become the best of friends with the PRC & Pakistan, appearing of being weaker isn't going to do them any good.
    I would agree but don't think pissing away billions of dollars on useless American shit makes them look stronger... it makes them look under Americas thumb and therefore an extension of America...- but if they keep getting only Russian arms instead, China will know that they r under the RF thumb; then defending her interests will be harder in the context of present PRC-RF relations. The "American shit" is not much more useless, if at all, than the Russian or french shit.
    Carriers give world access to the Indian Navy but would take days to get from Pakistani waters to Chinese waters... a bomber would take hours or a day at most. ..Buy MiG-31s and Kinzhal missiles and no enemy navy will get within 2,000km of Indian waters.-they have the E. & W. Fleets; the latter probably has the SCS in its AOR. But the Indian strategy is to defend her turf, not expand into the W. Pacific.
    why would naval fighters and EMALS cats they haven't fully developed for themselves yet be suddenly cheap? -they could invest le$$ into Russian EMALS in a win-win for both.
    .-the Block III isn't ancient at all-get over it!
    The aerodynamic design is ancient.- so r the F-15Es, Su-27/30/33s & MiG-29/35/31s which r similar to the F-18E/Fs. So, is getting more newer Rafales better, even if they'll cost a lot more?
    So they get crappy old steam technology that everyone is moving away from...-at least it's proven & more reliable, until better equipment is mature.
    Because they will only get US permission to fight China and not anyone else which makes them counter to Indian interests...- I ask again: which other nations besides PRC & Pakistan will/may India need to fight in the next 20-30years? Bangladesh, Iran, Sri Lanka, Myanmar, Malaysia, Cambodia, Thailand? Since they r all in the China orbit for decades to come, the US would be delighted. If not, India will have many other types of fighters to use against any of them.

    The US use Guam as an airfield but there is nothing else there...- the Apra Harbor hosts SSNs & can serve LHA/Ds, FFGs, DDGs, CGs, CVNs & SSBNs.
    It is possible you might be adolf hitler but is there any point in taking the possibility seriously? no, it's not possible- he wouldn't have lived till 2021 even if he survived in 1945.
    India did invade Bangladesh
    Bangledesh and Pakistan are both India. no, they r former India that was held together by the UK.
    Argentina hadn't invaded any1 for over a 100 years before 1982.
    The Falklands are more Argentinian geographically than British...- true; by the same token, India may feel justified invading Sri Lanka. If Tasmania/Hainan were independent islands, under certain circumstances Australia/China could be compelled to invade them too.
    And Russia is certainly better off for it...-but now she has to regain her buffer areas or be more vulnerable to pressure/interventions.
    - because independent socialist USSR was a big threat to the Western run capitalism by its very existence.
    The Soviets could have provided cheap skilled labour to the west and produced all their consumer shit the way China does now...- unlike China, Russia beat the West many times & regardless of ideology, Catholic & Protestants wouldn't invest in the Orthodox & Muslim Russia like they did in the PRC with her longest border with the USSR- look like Greece & Turkey is been & being treated by the US & EU today, as u wrote: Turkey is getting hostility from most of HATO now..
    -FYI, their new CV/N will be CATOBAR.
    So you are saying they have committed to spending billions on cats...- to keep up with the PRC, & maybe not as much as $Bs.
    -they wisely chose not to bite the hand that feeds them.
    They bite that hand all the time... Israel is always doing things to piss off the US.- only up to a certain point.
    China has decades of experience of making their own planes. Most are knockoffs of other peoples planes but they are making them all themselves.- India can do the same & has to start somewhere; if the F-18s r stop gap, no need to copy them.
    I know they could probably be made to work but the US does not want India using S-400s and they sure as hell wont want them using A-50s either...-then, no need to buy E-3s AWACS or the like, if India is to save $. Btw, Pakistan also use China's supplied Y-8 AWACS together with French & US made fighters.
    -they won't be crossing the Atlantic or Pacific like those in the USN; it'll take a lot longer between next refueling is due.
    And everything on board uses electrical power which means running reactors... and that includes the steam catapults... and unlike the Kuznetsov every aircraft taking off from a US carrier needs cat launch because they don't have ski jumps.- they won't be spending 6-10 months at sea, so their fuel will last a lot longer; ski rumps could be added, so only 2 catapults will remain, or all 4 will be used less.
    An all American fleet will be too expensive... even the Americans can't afford it...-their fleet won't be as big, but IMO they can integrate US gear with non-US aircraft, since the Rafales cross decked with a USN CVN & the A-4s operated from ex-French Brazilian & ex-British Australian CVs. British designed & US modified Harriers operate on USN LHAs, as well as Italian & Spanish CVs.
    -I would like to read that stipulation- do u have a reference to share?
    I read it on this forum.- here it is: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/INS_Jalashwa_(L41)#Controversy
    don't put=between an LHD, a multi-role ship that was acquired for training & HADR & multi-role fighters F-18s! Besides, the ex-Varyag was sold to the PRC "for non mil. use only" too; now it's combat ready.

    -they could use 3 F-18s for 360 degree coverage if no other AWACS r in the area.
    So three F-18s flying in three completely different directions.... but they can't do that without leaving the area. -they could go back & forth. India can also get OHRs to cover the area between E. Africa & Australia, besides using her IL-38s, A-50s & P-8s.
    India could even buy/lease Iranian F-4/14s &/ barter them for some Su-30s.
    If relations with the US go bad those carriers will become useless very very quickly- they have good hands & brains to avoid that.
    and Iran can barely keep the American planes they have flying there is no way they could offer to sell any to India and supply parts to keep them operational...- theoretically it's possible, & they mastered parts production into which India could invest. The US will be also happy that the IrAF won't have as many F-14s, & could even help India to upgrade them.
    The Israelis could then help with their upgrading, if need be.
    If India is in the shit with the US there is no way Israel will be helping... especially if they are talking to Iran about aircraft or parts.- China was not in the shit with the US for decades; now India took that role, & it'll be a long time, if ever, before India becomes US adversary.
    Japan and the US are no more allies of India than China is.-no, their alliance becomes only stronger by each month.
    Change is inevitable.- I won't bet on it being for the better.
    The Indians in Fiji basically run the place and the native Fijians regularly have coups when an ethnic Indian leader is elected there.-where else the Indians r so "successful"? The ethnic Chinese also ran Singapore & Thailand, where anti-Chinese riots/coups based on race alone r unheard of. We now have VP-elect 1/2 Indian C. Harris, but she won't rule alone & many Ms of White Americans r for Trump.
    Chinatowns can and do have craftsmen and smiths and musicians and criminals etc etc too...-that's a very small portion of Chinese, as most of them live in the suburbs, among the general population, at least in USA & Canada.
    The boundaries are what they are in Kashmir... if Pakistan wants to invade and take more land they might find themselves losing land in return...
    Chinese influence would be minimal.- with her BRI, etc. there, China won't let India take any Pakistani territory; India will lose more if she goes too far.
    .- I live near the Mexican border & traveled to/from Mexico & Canada many times- there r no outstanding claims, at least on the official level.
    Not from an American perspective... you stole that land fair and square...-not me, they did it long before I showed up here in 1988.
    they might have different thoughts on the matter though.- true, on a sentimental level. It'll take many years for their "Reconquista" to become a real issue. Even if those areas secede, they won't become part of Mexico again.
    No good as a front line fighter in the 2030s... why get something ancient when you can buy something newer?- like those Su-33/34/35s or MiG-35s based on the Su-27 & the MiG-29? Those r not radical new designs, by any stretch.
    China/India could get Tu-22Ms/F-15Es/16s but chose to modernize H-6s & get Rafales & F-18E/F Block IIIs, respectively.

    Not used by India since 1991.-if a rifle is on the wall in the 1st act, it'll be used in the 3rd.
    They have made it clear by supplying weapons to terrorists in Kashmir.- the bottom line is: China & India r the 2 tigers that have a hard time sharing the same mountain. Pakistan won't be able to observe their fight, if it comes, from a safe point.
    But she does not make that much money that they can piss away billions to suck up to an America that would screw them over in a heartbeat if it suited.
    they did piss away billions on Russian & French arms & now want to try the American arms, hoping to gain something from it.
    GarryB
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    Indian Navy and Naval Aicraft: News - Page 15 Empty Re: Indian Navy and Naval Aicraft: News

    Post  GarryB Sun Jan 10, 2021 9:51 am

    - if, as u state, the RF needs them to protect SLOCs, so does India with her overseas trade.

    SLOC beyond Russian waters away from Russian land based airpower and air defence systems... that means CVNs but also Destroyers and Cruisers that can operate away from Russian waters for long periods... Russia does not have CVNs nor modern destroyers or cruisers for such a role and wont have either till about the start of the 2030s... she will be able to fake it in 2 years time with the Kuznetsov back in the water and the upgraded Kirovs back in the water too, but they are going to be spending the next half decade in testing and working out new gear and new tactics and their upgraded Kirovs probably wont have their full Surface to Air missile batteries that their new destroyers will have let alone their new cruisers... but that is OK because they likely wont have Su-57 like aircraft and Yak-44 like aircraft on the Kuznetsov till after 2025 either. Talk of new types of cats suggests they will probably be testing something new on the K in the next few years and that means testing bigger heavier aircraft because that is the real point of new types of catapults.

    India wont be deploying carrier groups much beyond their own waters for some time now... as you keep pointing out their main focus is their neighbours with which they already share large land borders... if Russia was focussed on the Baltic States and the Ukraine there would be no need for aircraft carriers there either...

    - but if they keep getting only Russian arms instead, China will know that they r under the RF thumb;

    Buying Russian stuff because Russia tells them to buy Russian stuff and not buy anyone elses stuff would be India under Russias thumb.

    Just like CAATSA where the US telling India they have to buy US gear and stop buying Russian gear that they want is being under Americas thumb.

    Russia has never forced India to ever buy anything, and never will. The US is already trying... and it will only get worse. France is too with their demands for India to buy Rafales instead of local production of Mirage 2000s which they wanted.

    then defending her interests will be harder in the context of present PRC-RF relations.

    Only buying Russian gear means they will be armed with much better weapons in much greater numbers for less money spent... for the cost of 36 Rafales they could have probably gotten a couple of brand new aircraft carriers built by Russia including full air groups.

    For 15 billion for leasing Hornets they could probably get 300 Su-57 5th gen fighters plus a huge pile of weapons to go with them.

    The "American shit" is not much more useless, if at all, than the Russian or french shit

    They will quickly find that American shit is not really fully compatible so to make it work they need to withdraw perfectly good existing systems and equipment and replace it with American shit... A-50s replaced by Hawkeyes, Il-78s replaced by Boeing tankers, Su-30MKIs replaced with brand new build F-15s most likely... India will move into second place for money spent on "defence" but only because it is so expensive...

    -they have the E. & W. Fleets; the latter probably has the SCS in its AOR. But the Indian strategy is to defend her turf, not expand into the W. Pacific.

    If they don't want global expansion then they don't need aircraft carriers... that is what aircraft carriers are for... to allow your ships to operate anywhere with independent aircraft support.

    -they could invest le$$ into Russian EMALS in a win-win for both.

    The Americans would not approve of using US aircraft on Russian developed EMALS, and equally even if they part fund the project which seems to have already developed a prototype system for deployment on the Kuznetsov for testing, the Russians will want India to use MiGs rather than much more expensive Hornets.

    - so r the F-15Es, Su-27/30/33s & MiG-29/35/31s which r similar to the F-18E/Fs. So, is getting more newer Rafales better, even if they'll cost a lot more?

    The claim was that they wanted the Hornet over the MiG-29 because they wanted something newer... the hornet is older than the MiG-29 not newer.

    -at least it's proven & more reliable, until better equipment is mature.

    It is certainly better than nothing, but it wont be free, and is a big step in the wrong direction... it is a bit like buying a new sniper rifle that uses a flintlock firing mechanism... it works...

    - I ask again: which other nations besides PRC & Pakistan will/may India need to fight in the next 20-30years?

    No one can say... that is why when you buy weapons and aircraft for your military you buy them... you don't borrow them or buy them from manipulative countries that might render them useless if you want to use them against their wishes like France and the UK and US have a long history of doing and Russia does not.

    Bangladesh, Iran, Sri Lanka, Myanmar, Malaysia, Cambodia, Thailand? Since they r all in the China orbit for decades to come, the US would be delighted. If not, India will have many other types of fighters to use against any of them.

    These American planes they might potentially buy will be totally different from anything they have operated before and need a completely new infrastructure to support then and new operational mentality to use properly... and they will be three to four times more expensive than anything comparable they could buy from Russia, so the reason for pissing all this money away is that it might make the US look favourably on India... perhaps... maybe... that is a huge risk and a serious waste of money that could be invested in development and growth in India that will give rather more benefit to the Indian people.

    - the Apra Harbor hosts SSNs & can serve LHA/Ds, FFGs, DDGs, CGs, CVNs & SSBNs.

    My apologies... I thought it was just an airfield but they have clearly made it murder central for the region... not sure that effects anything though.

    It is a forward base to kill people from.

    no, it's not possible- he wouldn't have lived till 2021 even if he survived in 1945.

    If he could be living on a base on the dark side of the moon they easily could have modified his DNA to extend his natural life and he could easily be cloned billions of times too... you might be a clone.

    no, they r former India that was held together by the UK.

    Pakistanies and Bangledeshis and Indias are like Georgians, Texans, and Californians... but each with different religions.

    -but now she has to regain her buffer areas or be more vulnerable to pressure/interventions.

    No she does not... buffer states are useless, and the cost of maintaining them makes them undesirable.

    The cost of subsidising eastern europe far outweighed the potential value of having them fight on the side of the Soviet forces against western europe... I rather suspect most would have folded like a camping bed. The East Germans might have put up a fight, but the rest... would probably start fighting each other.

    Catholic & Protestants wouldn't invest in the Orthodox & Muslim Russia like they did in the PRC with her longest border with the USSR

    Russia was athiest just like communist China...

    There is little christian brotherly love today either...

    - look like Greece & Turkey is been & being treated by the US & EU today, as u wrote: Turkey is getting hostility from most of HATO now..

    For not being Washingtons bitch... it is nothing to do with religion and everything to do with Turkey not falling in line and doing what it is told.

    - India can do the same & has to start somewhere; if the F-18s r stop gap, no need to copy them.

    There are thousands of different components that go in to a modern aircraft... they would be better to create industries to make some of those components for all Indian aircraft than trying to make a whole plane on their own.

    It is like making a tank... with the Arjun they tried to make their own tank and ended up with a Leopard 2... but not a good model Leo. Most of the components like engine and armour etc etc came from foreign companies but the idea was to make an Indian tank.

    The problem was EGO.

    They should have started simple and developed a simple but well armoured tank with a good gun and good armour and good engine... not a great gun and great armour and a great engine. Fit it with good optics and communications and produce it in numbers and then work on a better gun and better armour and a better engine. The engine could be used in small boats and heavy trucks and as backup generators in hospitals and factories and stuff...

    The chassis could be used as a heavy BTR and a heavy BMP vehicle... they could have sold them to other countries as a cheap easy to maintain and operate vehicle with solid reliable performance.

    Learn to paint before you expect to compete with the masters.

    They might have come up with a cheap simple tank design that might even appeal to a superpower that could be mass produced and delivered to allies in numbers that make them very useful with low maintenance costs and a short logistics tail burden...

    It is the same with Tegas... it didn't need to be 5th gen... a good solid reliable light fighter that is cheap to buy and operate and can provide numbers and do simple duties to free up bigger more expensive fighters to roles that require their extra capabilities.

    A three ton payload, a 1,500km operational radius with two external fuel tanks and 6 AAMs... to be light and nimble and cheap...
    Make it multirole so you could have two 500kg bombs replacing two of those AAMs... they could be dumb iron bombs using a sort of Gefest &T targeting system giving precision accuracy from safe altitudes, or guided bombs using sat guidance or laser guidance perhaps using a targeting pod.

    Btw, Pakistan also use China's supplied Y-8 AWACS together with French & US made fighters.

    Pakistan got arab money or US loans. US loans can only be used for US planes. The US would tolerate Pakistan buying from Europe but would not tolerate Pakistan buying Soviet or Russian gear in significant numbers...

    - they won't be spending 6-10 months at sea, so their fuel will last a lot longer; ski rumps could be added, so only 2 catapults will remain, or all 4 will be used less.

    Ski jumps are not compatible with cats, and if they are operating in Indian waters then it makes rather more sense to use existing land based aircraft rather than buying new carriers that wont be going anywhere.

    .-their fleet won't be as big, but IMO they can integrate US gear with non-US aircraft, since the Rafales cross decked with a USN CVN

    Yeah, great... the Rafale... the only carrier based fighter that would cost even more than hornets...

    don't put=between an LHD, a multi-role ship that was acquired for training & HADR & multi-role fighters F-18s!

    India bought the ship to get experience in an area they had no previous experience... it was a chance to see if it could be useful and if new ships could be useful in the future for the Indian Navy... they agreed to not use it in war because they were not sure they had a use for it in the first place and wanted some experience with an operational system. If they decided it could be useful then they would build their own ships so they wouldn't need to use it in war anyway.

    From the American position it is less charitable... they sold them landing ship technology but basically said they couldn't use it in combat... at the time meaning you can't use it against our other customers in the region.... Pakistan. If India had actually violated the agreement and attacked China I honestly think the Americans would not have objected because they have always hated China... though are happy to use them when it is convenient.

    Something similar is happening now with India.... they now find India is more useful against China than Pakistan is, but they could care less about any of those three countries and are using each of them against the other where they can.

    Besides, the ex-Varyag was sold to the PRC "for non mil. use only" too; now it's combat ready.

    That was sold by the Ukraine and I very much doubt there were any stipulations on that sale except take it away and give me the cash.

    -they could go back & forth. India can also get OHRs to cover the area between E. Africa & Australia, besides using her IL-38s, A-50s & P-8s.

    Not really the same. Plus the best ground based long range radars are Russian and the US is likely to object...

    - they have good hands & brains to avoid that.

    Not enough. It does not make sense to buy completely different expensive equipment that does pretty much what existing equipment already does that is less reliable and subject to sanction. Save billions of dollars and buy the same stuff from Russia and make it in India for yourself so you can manage everything and no one can take it away from you and you will never get to the position where you have to choose your own interests or being Americas bitch to keep their gear in your service working.

    What Iran did was incredibly hard and if they had any other choice they would have taken it in a heart beat... what they did was essentially walked for hours every day to bring a bucket of water to their house... for the same price and energy setting up some water bore near their house with inside taps would be what they really wanted to make the person who walked and got the water every day able to do something more productive instead... it is about force multipliers and working smart not working harder than you need to.

    .- theoretically it's possible, & they mastered parts production into which India could invest.

    It is theoretically possible, but also bloody stupid to make it your plan. Iran couldn't make parts for Hornets if they wanted to... they have never had access to Hornet aircraft and the parts in the Hornet are nothing like the parts in the F-14 and F-4 and F-5... all of which are from previous generations of aircraft.

    Do you think you can keep a modern BMW running on spare parts from a Ford Model T?

    The US will be also happy that the IrAF won't have as many F-14s, & could even help India to upgrade them.p

    Bullshit. The US would fear Iran getting rid of their F-14s... a plane they know inside out... because they would likely replace it with Su-30s or Su-35s armed wiht much more potent RVV-BD missiles they might get permission to produce locally...

    The US can't help India to make F-14s or their parts because all the tooling and equipment has been destroyed to prevent Iran using it.

    India has no carriers an F-14 could operate from. Iran only had F-14A aircraft with the older weak engines... not the upgraded F-14D models.

    - China was not in the shit with the US for decades; now India took that role, & it'll be a long time, if ever, before India becomes US adversary.

    It just takes a China friendly president to change everything... like Biden... he might dial back all the anti china rhetoric and India is left high and dry before anything even starts.

    -no, their alliance becomes only stronger by each month.

    The only thing the US and Japan has in common with India is that they all fear China... a totally irrational fear because China does not mean any of them harm in the way the US harms countries. Otherwise India is a democracy and the US and Japan are not...

    - I won't bet on it being for the better.

    Better for who?

    .-where else the Indians r so "successful"?

    Lots of ethnic Indians here in New Zealand... most are well educated and successful people.

    The ethnic Chinese also ran Singapore & Thailand, where anti-Chinese riots/coups based on race alone r unheard of.

    Lots of tension in Thailand and Singapore over ethnic Chinese... they are no where near to running either country that is just silly.

    We now have VP-elect 1/2 Indian C. Harris, but she won't rule alone & many Ms of White Americans r for Trump.

    Hahaha... you say it like it means anything... I guess two terms of Obama in the White house and problems of racism are all solved and black people can walk the streets in safety now... If hilary had won all of womens issues would be sorted once and for all... no wonder she was so pissed.

    -that's a very small portion of Chinese, as most of them live in the suburbs, among the general population, at least in USA & Canada.

    Can't speak for the US or Canada but here in Dunedin in New Zealand we have had a Chinese Mayor and an Indian Mayor.... Peter Chin, and Sukhi Turner.

    [quot]- with her BRI, etc. there, China won't let India take any Pakistani territory; India will lose more if she goes too far.[/quote]

    Why would China care about India taking Paki territory? They didn't send troops to Venezuela or Syria... in fact they don't send troops at all most of the time... the last time was against Vietnam and it was so poorly planned and executed Chinese troops were starving because they weren't supplied with food and water...

    .-not me, they did it long before I showed up here in 1988.

    Not you personally, but you are living on stolen land... like the children of a drug cartel boss who live in comfort on the dividends from criminal activity...

    .- true, on a sentimental level. It'll take many years for their "Reconquista" to become a real issue. Even if those areas secede, they won't become part of Mexico again.

    When the US dollar is internationally worthless you might find people trading on the border to get mexican money to pay their bills in money other people will accept rather than the monopoly money the US dollar will become.

    - like those Su-33/34/35s or MiG-35s based on the Su-27 & the MiG-29? Those r not radical new designs, by any stretch.

    By 2030 it will be Su-57 and LMFS and Su-33 and MiG-35s with parts and engines and radars and weapons from the Su-57 and LMFS programmes which will make them vastly more potent than the aircraft around today.

    The US will have F-35s... though by 2030 they might actually be bug free by then... only 400 million a plane...

    China/India could get Tu-22Ms/F-15Es/16s but chose to modernize H-6s & get Rafales & F-18E/F Block IIIs, respectively.

    Hahaha... India has not chosen anything yet and those American planes are simply not options for China... China will likely make a flying wing stealth bomber to replace the H-6 anyway.

    the bottom line is: China & India r the 2 tigers that have a hard time sharing the same mountain.

    Both are well fed, there is no reason to cross in to the others territory and risk a fight that could lead to fatal injuries to either or both parties.

    Pakistan won't be able to observe their fight, if it comes, from a safe point.p

    Pakistan has been funding terrorists for decades... they only get away with it like Saudi Arabia does because they are in Americas camp.

    Recently Pakistan has become more irritant than use to the US, so it might be a plan to get a deal of the century going wiht Kashmir... ie Pakistan gives up all its territory to India... and in return India will take that territory and rule over the inhabitants with an iron fist... you know... like Israel with the Palestinians...


    they did piss away billions on Russian & French arms & now want to try the American arms, hoping to gain something from it.

    With the Russian weapons they got what they paid for. They made the mistake of trying to work with Israel for the important stuff like IADS and battle management systems and EW systems and that is what has failed them. Now they are starting to look at Russian SAMs... just a question whether they will build a useful system that defends their territory or they end up with the flashy systems with holes so big their enemy can drive a truck right through like Saudi Arabia.

    Of course it was all Saudi Arabias fault for creating a real conflict on their own border... they seriously underestimated their enemy and got burned repeatedly for their toy play army.

    Russia can supply the shiny big pieces of a nice chess set, but without the tactics and systems integration and management it just sits on the desk looking pretty... you can't actually use it because even a kid will kick your ass and make you look silly.

    War is more than just shiny toys... and India is looking to buy some shiny useless toys from America for reasons other than having a real use for them... that is always going to bite them in the ass and in the pocket... and it will probably also cost them two potentially critical allies in their future... Russia wont put up with this crap forever, and believe it or not... China.

    India has a future... no matter how bad they fuck up, but one future is independence and growth and development with BRICS and the other is a colony of the west... a bitch... a tool to contain China... and when that pans out one way or the other expect to be discarded pretty quick... like Pakistan or Ukraine when you are no longer useful.
    Tsavo Lion
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    Indian Navy and Naval Aicraft: News - Page 15 Empty Re: Indian Navy and Naval Aicraft: News

    Post  Tsavo Lion Sun Jan 10, 2021 10:17 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    - if, as u state, the RF needs them to protect SLOCs, so does India with her overseas trade.
    India wont be deploying carrier groups much beyond their own waters for some time now... as you keep pointing out their main focus is their neighbours with which they already share large land borders... -the PRC & Pakistan also have modern navies that India can't ignore, & they'll be used against her together with their land & air forces.
    - but if they keep getting only Russian arms instead, China will know that they r under the RF thumb;
    Buying Russian stuff because Russia tells them to buy Russian stuff and not buy anyone elses stuff would be India under Russias thumb.-true, but India that lost a war to & fears China will be diplomatically constrained since RF & PRC now work hand in glove against the hostile West.
    then defending her interests will be harder in the context of present PRC-RF relations.
    Only buying Russian gear means they will be armed with much better weapons in much greater numbers for less money spent... for the cost of 36 Rafales they could have probably gotten a couple of brand new aircraft carriers built by Russia including full air groups.- India doesn't need be sanctioned for buying Russian arms lest her trade surplus goes down; they needed Rafales & got them sooner, & want to build their own CVs.
    For 15 billion for leasing Hornets they could probably get 300 Su-57 5th gen fighters plus a huge pile of weapons to go with them.- we don't know the exact amount & what it'll include; they r ready now, while the 300 Su-57s won't be any time soon.
    The "American shit" is not much more useless, if at all, than the Russian or french shit
    They will quickly find that American shit is not really fully compatible so to make it work they need to withdraw perfectly good existing systems and equipment and replace it with American shit... A-50s replaced by Hawkeyes, Il-78s replaced by Boeing tankers, Su-30MKIs replaced with brand new build F-15s most likely...-no need to, they r not mutually exclusive: she can use both Russian & Western AWACS, tankers & fighters.
    -they have the E. & W. Fleets; the latter probably has the SCS in its AOR. But the Indian strategy is to defend her turf, not expand into the W. Pacific.
    If they don't want global expansion then they don't need aircraft carriers... that is what aircraft carriers are for... to allow your ships to operate anywhere with independent aircraft support.- then why Russia, Spain, France, Brazil, Thailand & Italy have them? China, Japan & S. Korea also have/will have them too. Canada, Australia & Argentina had them as well- none of them r/were aiming at "global expansion". Their SIZE & doctrinal employment matters.
    -they could invest le$$ into Russian EMALS in a win-win for both.
    The Americans would not approve of using US aircraft on Russian developed EMALS, and equally even if they part fund the project which seems to have already developed a prototype system for deployment on the Kuznetsov for testing, the Russians will want India to use MiGs rather than much more expensive Hornets.-they could use both to make them happy.
    - so r the F-15Es, Su-27/30/33s & MiG-29/35/31s which r similar to the F-18E/Fs. So, is getting more newer Rafales better, even if they'll cost a lot more?
    The claim was that they wanted the Hornet over the MiG-29 because they wanted something newer... the hornet is older than the MiG-29 not newer.-if they order new F-18E/Fs after they get trained on the leased batch, they'll be newer. Later there will be Block IV, V, & VI they could be upgraded to.
    - I ask again: which other nations besides PRC & Pakistan will/may India need to fight in the next 20-30years?
    Bangladesh, Iran, Sri Lanka, Myanmar, Malaysia, Cambodia, Thailand? Since they r all in the China orbit for decades to come, the US would be delighted. If not, India will have many other types of fighters to use against any of them.
    These American planes they might potentially buy will be totally different from anything they have operated before and need a completely new infrastructure to support then and new operational mentality to use properly... and they will be three to four times more expensive than anything comparable they could buy from Russia, so the reason for pissing all this money away is that it might make the US look favourably on India... perhaps... maybe... that is a huge risk and a serious waste of money that could be invested in development and growth in India that will give rather more benefit to the Indian people.-they see at as chance o become a superpower = to PRC & Russia. India won't be the 1st nation operating American made fighters in S/W/E Asia, & they can do it. To them, the risk is worth it.
    - the Apra Harbor hosts SSNs & can serve LHA/Ds, FFGs, DDGs, CGs, CVNs & SSBNs.
    My apologies... I thought it was just an airfield but they have clearly made it murder central for the region... not sure that effects anything though.-together with Okinawa, Taiwan, Philippines, Australia, Hawaii, & Diego Garcia, it does effect many things.
    you might be a clone.- only if I looked like him & had the same DNA, but I don't.
    no, they r former India that was held together by the UK.
    Pakistanies and Bangledeshis and Indias are like Georgians, Texans, and Californians... but each with different religions.- wrong comparison: they don't speak the same languages & have completely different histories & mentalities.
    -but now she has to regain her buffer areas or be more vulnerable to pressure/interventions.
    No she does not... buffer states are useless, and the cost of maintaining them makes them undesirable.-wrong: Ukraine still dominates Crimea & the Russian enclave in Moldova, not to mention Kaliningrad that is cut off by Lithuania & Belarus. The roads to N. Caucasus r also between 479 km wide corridor formed by borders of Ukraine & Kazakhstan.
    Catholic & Protestants wouldn't invest in the Orthodox & Muslim Russia like they did in the PRC with her longest border with the USSR
    Russia was athiest just like communist China...There is little christian brotherly love today either...- Stalin industrialized USSR with Western help, but the WWII & the CW changed all that; the Soviets in any case wouldn't adopt well to Western work ethic. The Fiat built the now famous auto factory there which stopped producing quality cars as soon as the Italian managers & engineers left.
    - India can do the same & has to start somewhere; if the F-18s r stop gap, no need to copy them.
    There are thousands of different components that go in to a modern aircraft... they would be better to create industries to make some of those components for all Indian aircraft than trying to make a whole plane on their own.-they can just lease/buy as many as they need to be used till their own fighters r in production.

    Btw, Pakistan also use China's supplied Y-8 AWACS together with French & US made fighters.
    Pakistan got arab money or US loans. US loans can only be used for US planes. The US would tolerate Pakistan buying from Europe but would not tolerate Pakistan buying Soviet or Russian gear in significant numbers...-that's ancient history now, as she's a PRC protectorate.
    - they won't be spending 6-10 months at sea, so their fuel will last a lot longer; ski rumps could be added, so only 2 catapults will remain, or all 4 will be used less.
    Ski jumps are not compatible with cats, and if they are operating in Indian waters then it makes rather more sense to use existing land based aircraft rather than buying new carriers that wont be going anywhere.- they'll operate in the N. IO bathtub that has strong monsoons which allow the catapults not to work at full capacity. CVNs can sail into such wind at 21kts & will get enough lift for anything with wings.
    From the American position it is less charitable... they sold them landing ship technology but basically said they couldn't use it in combat... at the time meaning you can't use it against our other customers in the region.... Pakistan.-INS Jalashwa (Sanskrit/Hindi: Hippopotamus) is an amphibious transport dock currently in service with the Indian Navy. Formerly USS Trenton, she, along with six Sikorsky SH-3 Sea King helicopters were procured from the United States by India for a total of US$90 million in 2005. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/INS_Jalashwa_(L41)
    It was a good bargain, & the Indians knew that their relations with Pakistan will not get better while with the US will.

    Something similar is happening now with India.... they now find India is more useful against China than Pakistan is,..- the letter was never meant to be used against the PRC; it was used against the Indian & Soviet interests in S. Asia.
    Besides, the ex-Varyag was sold to the PRC "for non mil. use only" too; now it's combat ready.
    That was sold by the Ukraine and I very much doubt there were any stipulations on that sale except take it away and give me the cash.- yes, that condition was there to save Ukrainian reputation. The contract with Ukraine prohibited the buyer from using Varyag for military purposes.
    -they could go back & forth. India can also get OHRs to cover the area between E. Africa & Australia, besides using her IL-38s, A-50s & P-8s.
    Not really the same. Plus the best ground based long range radars are Russian and the US is likely to object...-the Russians could be paid to build them & the US can object all they want.
    What Iran did was incredibly hard and if they had any other choice they would have taken it in a heart beat...It just takes a China friendly president to change everything... like Biden... he might dial back all the anti china rhetoric and India is left high and dry before anything even starts. -Israel also had embargoes against it
    but kept winning all the air wars; there's less risk for India as her interests r not in conflict with the US & NATO interests, & they won't be, if ever, to the same degree as the conflict of their interests with China's. In any event, the US will maintain good relations with India as an insurance policy & for extra leverage vs. the PRC.

    It is theoretically possible, but also bloody stupid to make it your plan. Iran couldn't make parts for Hornets if they wanted to... -no, the F-14 parts, if India gets them.
    India has no carriers an F-14 could operate from. -once they get a new CV/N, it could.
    Iran only had F-14A aircraft with the older weak engines... not the upgraded F-14D models.- still, not bad as a stop gap & training plane!
    -no, their alliance becomes only stronger by each month.
    The only thing the US and Japan has in common with India is that they all fear China... a totally irrational fear because China does not mean any of them harm in the way the US harms countries.- China liberated herself from the Mongols but the Mongols in India were replaced by the Timurids. India doesn't want to be junior to, & be dominated by China, in anything. It was never a tributary state like Korea & Japan. That's also why there r no Chinatowns in India.
    The ethnic Chinese also ran Singapore & Thailand, where anti-Chinese riots/coups based on race alone r unheard of.
    Lots of tension in Thailand and Singapore over ethnic Chinese... they are no where near to running either country that is just silly.-not true. Thais & Chinese been coexisting peacefully for centuries; Taksin is ethnic Chinese & did run Thailand; the coup was over his economic policies. The Singapore founder was also Chinese, & they run its economy.
    We now have VP-elect 1/2 Indian C. Harris, but she won't rule alone & many Ms of White Americans r for Trump.
    Hahaha... you say it like it means anything... I guess two terms of Obama in the White house and problems of racism are all solved and black people can walk the streets in safety now...-there were some hate crimes against Indians here, & it may come to the point that Whites will start emigrating to Canada or Australia/NZ so they don't have to live with & be ruled by colored people. That's the price for bring African slaves to the Americas.
    .-not me, they did it long before I showed up here in 1988.
    Not you personally, but you are living on stolen land... like the children of a drug cartel boss who live in comfort on the dividends from criminal activity...-I lived only on the Gadsden Purchase land, acquired 6 years after the US-Mexico War. The SW USA has Ms of Hispanics already & if more of them come, it won't bother me.
    - like those Su-33/34/35s or MiG-35s based on the Su-27 & the MiG-29? Those r not radical new designs, by any stretch.
    By 2030 it will be Su-57 and LMFS and Su-33 and MiG-35s with parts and engines and radars and weapons from the Su-57 and LMFS programmes which will make them vastly more potent than the aircraft around today.- until then, the Super F-18s r the planes of their choice.
    China/India could get Tu-22Ms/F-15Es/16s but chose to modernize H-6s & get Rafales & F-18E/F Block IIIs, respectively.
    Hahaha... India has not chosen anything yet ..- they'll highly likely, or that news leak wouldn't have seen the light of day.
    China will likely make a flying wing stealth bomber to replace the H-6 anyway.- they r too new & useful to be replaced anytime soon. Even the B-52s weren't replaced by the B-1B/2s & the Tu-160s didn't replace the Tu-95s.
    the bottom line is: China & India r the 2 tigers that have a hard time sharing the same mountain.
    Both are well fed, there is no reason to cross in to the others territory and risk a fight that could lead to fatal injuries to either or both parties.- some people r very hard to reason with, & these 2 r blaming each other of trespassing, leading to many injuries & deaths.
    Pakistan won't be able to observe their fight, if it comes, from a safe point.p
    Pakistan has been funding terrorists for decades...-against Soviet & Indian state terrorism, created by British colonization of S. Asia & its less than graceful exit from it.
    Russia wont put up with this crap forever, ..-there r long term weapons systems service & base use agreements, as well as leasing of SSNs with the RF, & she will use India as a leverage if/when US-China relations improve again.
    India has a future... no matter how bad they fuck up, but one future is independence and growth and development with BRICS and the other is a colony of the west... a bitch... a tool to contain China... and when that pans out one way or the other expect to be discarded pretty quick... like Pakistan or Ukraine when you are no longer useful.
    which reminds me of Yugoslavia that tried to keep both NATO & Warsaw pact at arms length while suckling them. That nation was a big part of the Ottoman Empire, & India was a big part of British Empire. Now India is between the American & Chinese Empires which may aid in her farther breakup, as was done with Yugoslavia.


    Last edited by Tsavo Lion on Mon Jan 11, 2021 2:45 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : add text, link)
    GarryB
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    Indian Navy and Naval Aicraft: News - Page 15 Empty Re: Indian Navy and Naval Aicraft: News

    Post  GarryB Mon Jan 11, 2021 8:20 am

    -the PRC & Pakistan also have modern navies that India can't ignore, & they'll be used against her together with their land & air forces.

    The Indian Navy wont be fighting in the south Atlantic... fighting on the west coast or east coast of India will be with the full support of much cheaper much more capable land based aircraft.

    -true, but India that lost a war to & fears China will be diplomatically constrained since RF & PRC now work hand in glove against the hostile West.

    A US that basically kept Pakistan fully armed and funded during most of its conflicts with India...

    - India doesn't need be sanctioned for buying Russian arms lest her trade surplus goes down; they needed Rafales & got them sooner, & want to build their own CVs.

    India will be sanctioned by the US you are a fool to think otherwise... as soon as S-400s start arriving and any discussions on any other big purchases and CAATSA will be used... that is what it is for.... to force India to buy Patriot and THAAD instead...

    .- we don't know the exact amount & what it'll include; they r ready now, while the 300 Su-57s won't be any time soon.

    15 billion could include free CVNs for all that matters, Su-57s would be of far more use to India...

    A 5th gen stealth fighter would be vastly more valuable to India than a 4th gen carrier aircraft on some old worn out aircraft carrier...

    -no need to, they r not mutually exclusive: she can use both Russian & Western AWACS, tankers & fighters.

    Not how America operates... you are either with us or you are with the terrorists... the Ukraine could not integrate into the EU and HATO and still have strong trade relations with Russia...

    Weren't even allowed to speak the same language...

    - then why Russia, Spain, France, Brazil, Thailand & Italy have them?

    To make their surface ships safer and their surface action groups able to operate globally.... with full sized carriers... the tiny carriers are for show and are worse than useless because they are cheaper but not actually cheap and really can't do the job a slightly more expensive but bigger ship could do.

    -they could use both to make them happy.

    It would make no sense to use both MiG-29s and Hornets.... especially as the price of hornets would mean they couldn't afford anything else anyway.

    -if they order new F-18E/Fs after they get trained on the leased batch, they'll be newer. Later there will be Block IV, V, & VI they could be upgraded to.

    Their price is worse than the F-35s price and they don't have any ships for them to operate on... taking off from a land strip with a ski jump is not the same as operating from the Gorskov... I very much doubt the F-18s would fit on the lifts and would certainly not be compatible with the equipment and systems.

    The instruments in the American plane will be in feet and pounds for goodness sake... how backward is that?

    -they see at as chance o become a superpower = to PRC & Russia. India won't be the 1st nation operating American made fighters in S/W/E Asia, & they can do it. To them, the risk is worth it.

    Yeah because all US allies have risen up to become super powers... the US does everything it can to encourage that happening... NOT.

    India has more of a chance to become a real INDEPENDENT superpower with BRICS... than with the US.

    - only if I looked like him & had the same DNA, but I don't.

    Are you confusing a clone with an identical twin?

    - wrong comparison: they don't speak the same languages & have completely different histories & mentalities.

    Both regions of the same country that developed to have different languages and culture.

    -wrong: Ukraine still dominates Crimea

    Once the issues with fresh water are sorted out I doubt the people of Crimea will give the Ukraine a second thought.

    to mention Kaliningrad that is cut off by Lithuania & Belarus.

    Kaliningrad is completely secure.

    the Soviets in any case wouldn't adopt well to Western work ethic.

    The Soviets worked just fine... the western work ethic of sweating blood so the rich CEO of the company you work for can maintain his standard of life while you work hard for minimum wage is a joke... but very useful brain washing for those that benefit most.

    The Fiat built the now famous auto factory there which stopped producing quality cars as soon as the Italian managers & engineers left.

    Which shows they were there to make some money and not to actually teach anyone...

    -they can just lease/buy as many as they need to be used till their own fighters r in production.

    If they are just going to be using foreign parts why not just buy 3-4 times cheaper foreign made weapons and aircraft and focus local production on things that you need to make in much greater numbers. Big Screen TVs or cars and buses and trucks for instance.

    -that's ancient history now, as she's a PRC protectorate.

    The CIA still operates in Pakistan and murder drones still fly there too.

    .- they'll operate in the N. IO bathtub that has strong monsoons which allow the catapults not to work at full capacity. CVNs can sail into such wind at 21kts & will get enough lift for anything with wings.

    Land based runways allow existing aircraft to operate already... and for no extra cost.

    It was a good bargain, & the Indians knew that their relations with Pakistan will not get better while with the US will.

    Wasn't a bargain at all... it was the US disposing of rubbish and India buying it... and they will be paying top dollar to keep those helicopter flying.

    -the Russians could be paid to build them & the US can object all they want.

    They can block weapons used on the Rafale... they can block any F-16 or F-18 sale or parts if purchases have already been made...

    there's less risk for India as her interests r not in conflict with the US & NATO interests, & they won't be, if ever, to the same degree as the conflict of their interests with China's. In any event, the US will maintain good relations with India as an insurance policy & for extra leverage vs. the PRC.

    If India decides to have better relations with Russia and China any strings or attachments made will be used to punish India... ruthlessly.

    -no, the F-14 parts, if India gets them.

    What the fuck would India do with F-14s? They are junk now.

    -once they get a new CV/N, it could.

    India could no make a Carrier able to carry F-14s... the F-14 is big and heavy and totally obsolete rubbish.

    - still, not bad as a stop gap & training plane!

    Yes... very bad... fucking useless in fact... not just useless but bloody expensive to get flying and keep flying and useless as shit if you could even get it flying from a ground base. Carrier ops... never happen.

    -not true. Thais & Chinese been coexisting peacefully for centuries; Taksin is ethnic Chinese & did run Thailand;

    How many chinese marry in to the thai royal family?

    The Singapore founder was also Chinese, & they run its economy.

    Chinese also run Taiwan... I guess China is best buddies with them...

    -there were some hate crimes against Indians here, & it may come to the point that Whites will start emigrating to Canada or Australia/NZ so they don't have to live with & be ruled by colored people.

    Our local Maori eat white supremacists...

    - until then, the Super F-18s r the planes of their choice.

    No it isn't. They have not chosen anything. This is American companies talk and pro American Indians talk. Means nothing at all.

    .- they'll highly likely, or that news leak wouldn't have seen the light of day.

    It didn't leak out of anywhere... it was made up by proUS Indians who want it to happen...

    they r too new & useful to be replaced anytime soon. Even the B-52s weren't replaced by the B-1B/2s & the Tu-160s didn't replace the Tu-95s.

    Tu-16s are not strategic bombers, they are theatre bombers... more comparable with Tu-22Ms than Tu-95s or B-52s.

    They didn't make enough of the Tu-160 or B-2 for replacements to be made but the PAK DA will replace the Bears and Backfires.

    -against Soviet & Indian state terrorism,

    Bullshit... there were Pakistanis in 11/9... what soviet or indian terrorism were they countering there?

    -there r long term weapons systems service & base use agreements, as well as leasing of SSNs with the RF, & she will use India as a leverage if/when US-China relations improve again.

    Or she might think India is now Americas bitch and down grade the relationship to customer status and stop offering her their best stuff... stuff they wont sell or lease to anyone else...

    Now India is between the American & Chinese Empires which may aid in her farther breakup, as was done with Yugoslavia.

    Playing with the west is playing with fire... the question is... do you burn your finger tips, or are we talking about full cremation.

    The roads to N. Caucasus r also between

    Love to see HATO try and narrow that gap even by a few metres...

    Sujoy
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    Indian Navy and Naval Aicraft: News - Page 15 Empty Re: Indian Navy and Naval Aicraft: News

    Post  Sujoy Mon Jan 11, 2021 7:18 pm

    Tsavo Lion wrote:there were some hate crimes against Indians here, & it may come to the point that Whites will start emigrating to Canada or Australia/NZ so they don't have to live with & be ruled by colored people.
    That's true. But then if White Americans can carry out hate crimes against Indians on a regular basis (as they normally do) why should they migrate to Canada, Australia, NZ? Dislike for India/Indians has always been very profound in the Anglo-Saxon states. So White Americans/Anglo-Saxons do not need a trigger to target Indians.

    For instance, earlier today several Indian players were abused in Australia simply because Australia could not win a test match at home.

    https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/sports/cricket/india-in-australia/brown-dog-go-home-indians-racially-abused-at-scg-again/articleshow/80205255.cms

    Tsavo Lion
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    Indian Navy and Naval Aicraft: News - Page 15 Empty Re: Indian Navy and Naval Aicraft: News

    Post  Tsavo Lion Mon Jan 11, 2021 9:04 pm

    GarryB wrote:The Indian Navy wont be fighting in the south Atlantic... fighting on the west coast or east coast of India will be with the full support of much cheaper much more capable land based aircraft.- they want to be able to operate with the US & RNs, not just off the coast, possibly near the Malacca Strait & in the SC Sea.
    -true, but India that lost a war to & fears China will be diplomatically constrained since RF & PRC now work hand in glove against the hostile West.
    A US that basically kept Pakistan fully armed and funded during most of its conflicts with India...- back then she was leaning to USSR who had its own PRC problem; not relevant now & for the next decade or more.

    India will be sanctioned by the US you are a fool to think otherwise... as soon as S-400s start arriving and any discussions on any other big purchases and CAATSA will be used... that is what it is for.... to force India to buy Patriot and THAAD instead...-much smaller Turkey got & tested them against F-16/35s despite sanctions; India won't get humiliated.

    15 billion could include free CVNs for all that matters, Su-57s would be of far more use to India...-she can order them too, once they see it's what they need. But they won't be delivered in time as the VKS is more important then the IAF/N.

    A 5th gen stealth fighter would be vastly more valuable to India than a 4th gen carrier aircraft on some old worn out aircraft carrier...-they'll be 4+ gen.; an "old worn out aircraft carrier" is being continuously maintained to be sea/mission ready & will be modified/ernized for her needs.

    -no need to, they r not mutually exclusive: she can use both Russian & Western AWACS, tankers & fighters.
    Not how America operates... you are either with us or you are with the terrorists... the Ukraine could not integrate into the EU and HATO and still have strong trade relations with Russia...- the US overpaid for the MI-17s which were bought for the Afghan AF; Malaysia, Indonesia, Mexico, & Peru operate(d) US & Soviet/Russian made aircraft.

    - then why Russia, Spain, France, Brazil, Thailand & Italy have them?
    the tiny carriers are for show and are worse than useless because they are cheaper but not actually cheap and really can't do the job a slightly more expensive but bigger ship could do.- Indian CV/Ns won't be tiny (if Vikramaditya can use MiG-29Ks, Vikrant can handle F-14/18s), & be useful to US/NATO in "policing" the IO; India meanwhile has her own score with China to settle; if the PLAN has to establish a permanent IO squadron or deploy more assets there, its forces will get stretched, making the US 7th fleet job easier.

    -they could use both to make them happy.
    It would make no sense to use both MiG-29s and Hornets.... especially as the price of hornets would mean they couldn't afford anything else anyway.- even if so, those MiG-29s could be transferred to the AF or sold.

    I very much doubt the F-18s would fit on the lifts and would certainly not be compatible with the equipment and systems.- they can stay topside; the Vikrant is same/bigger & future CVNs, even if not ex-USN, will be even more roomy.

    The instruments in the American plane will be in feet and pounds for goodness sake... how backward is that?-they can be remarked; digital displays may be able show both.

    -they see at as chance o become a superpower = to PRC & Russia. India won't be the 1st nation operating American made fighters in S/W/E Asia, & they can do it. To them, the risk is worth it.
    Yeah because all US allies have risen up to become super powers... the US does everything it can to encourage that happening... NOT.-Japan, SK, Iran(before 1979), Turkey, Pakistan, Australia, Brazil, & France became strong regional powers under US "protection" & tutelage, if not tacit support. India has a chance to reap the same benefit, being non-PRC friendly & having a long land border with it & her other Asian friends. W/o a common border, she's also secure from any Russian pressure.

    India has more of a chance to become a real INDEPENDENT superpower with BRICS... than with the US.-an independent regional, but not a superpower, truncated as she is, with no strategic depth. If India had Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iran, Nepal, Tibet, Indochina, & Indonesia, then she could become a superpower. Being allied with RF & PRC will put her in subordinated position to either or both.

    - only if I looked like him & had the same DNA, but I don't.
    Are you confusing a clone with an identical twin?-clone has the same DNA as its donor.
    to mention Kaliningrad that is cut off by Lithuania & Belarus.
    Kaliningrad is completely secure. -but NATO may think otherwise.

    The Fiat built the now famous auto factory there which stopped producing quality cars as soon as the Italian managers & engineers left.
    Which shows they were there to make some money and not to actually teach anyone...- I heard many workers were fired by Italians for being lazy & their lack of discipline. In the USSR, there was no incentive to work well at state enterprises; after the Italians left, it became another Soviet mis-managed auto plant. Old habits die hard!

    -they can just lease/buy as many as they need to be used till their own fighters r in production.
    If they are just going to be using foreign parts why not just buy 3-4 times cheaper foreign made weapons and aircraft..
    I like chocolate ice cream with a particular flavor, but if there's another flavor, I'll want to try it too, as it might taste better. The same with Russian & US made aircraft. India got so used to MiGs & Sukhois like tire shop mechs & clerks to new tire smell; she may feel its time to try Hornets, esp. if it'll show China that she means  business.  

    -that's ancient history now, as she's a PRC protectorate.
    The CIA still operates in Pakistan and murder drones still fly there too.- it's easier to say were the CIA doesn't operate with drones; I doubt they r active there now, after killing so many innocents.

    .- they'll operate in the N. IO bathtub that has strong monsoons which allow the catapults not to work at full capacity. CVNs can sail into such wind at 21kts & will get enough lift for anything with wings.
    Land based runways allow existing aircraft to operate already... and for no extra cost.- the PRC has them in & near the SC Sea, but builds/will start building her 3rd/4th carriers + dozens of escorts. India also has SLOCs & islands to protect.

    It was a good bargain, & the Indians knew that their relations with Pakistan will not get better while with the US will.
    Wasn't a bargain at all... it was the US disposing of rubbish and India buying it... and they will be paying top dollar to keep those helicopter flying.- Iran also kept flying them since 1979, India "got what she paid for'.

    -the Russians could be paid to build them & the US can object all they want.
    They can block weapons used on the Rafale... they can block any F-16 or F-18 sale or parts if purchases have already been made...- I don't think they'll risk antagonizing & losing India over that.

    there's less risk for India as her interests r not in conflict with the US & NATO interests, & they won't be, if ever, to the same degree as the conflict of their interests with China's. In any event, the US will maintain good relations with India as an insurance policy & for extra leverage vs. the PRC.
    If India decides to have better relations with Russia and China any strings or attachments made will be used to punish India... ruthlessly.- in that case, she won't need F-18s & can then sell them.

    India could not make a Carrier able to carry F-14s... the F-14 is big and heavy and totally obsolete rubbish.- even the CV-41 & CV-61 which were narrower than Vikramaditya had them on board. With wings spread, they get enough lift to take off the rump.

    - still, not bad as a stop gap & training plane!
    Yes... very bad... fucking useless in fact... not just useless but bloody expensive to get flying and keep flying and useless as shit if you could even get it flying from a ground base. Carrier ops... never happen.- it won't be more costly than what Iran pays to keep them flying. U said they could be upgraded in the USN service instead of developing F-18E/Fs (& which u complain will be too costly to India), but deny the same to the INAF. Good example of ur bias 2x standard!

    -not true. Thais & Chinese been coexisting peacefully for centuries; Taksin is ethnic Chinese & did run Thailand;
    How many chinese marry in to the thai royal family?-the King was a respected figurehead & not much more. The Thais came for S. China, so ethnically they r not that different anyway.

    The Singapore founder was also Chinese, & they run its economy.
    Chinese also run Taiwan... I guess China is best buddies with them...-what matters is that PRC & Singapore so far avoided becoming bitter enemies.

    Our local Maori eat white supremacists...-but they still failed to stop the recent mosque attack by an Australian.

    - until then, the Super F-18s r the planes of their choice.
    No it isn't. They have not chosen anything. This is American companies talk and pro American Indians talk. Means nothing at all.-if it is so, they would have bought more Rafales or Su-30/35s instead.

    Tu-16s are not strategic bombers, they are theatre bombers... more comparable with Tu-22Ms than Tu-95s or B-52s.- with IRPs, they r strategic in the E/SE Asia context, & that's why the PLAAF will keep them, under H-6 designations.

    Or she might think India is now Americas bitch and down grade the relationship to customer status and stop offering her their best stuff... stuff they wont sell or lease to anyone else...-which will be OK as she always complains about quality & tech support for imported Russian arms.

    Playing with the west is playing with fire... the question is... do you burn your finger tips, or are we talking about full cremation.- a dying organism wants to live longer & only prolongs its agony. India hopes to survive longer in its struggle with China now; later she may discard the West & join the BRI to the delight of all of S. Asia & Russia, but by then she'll be reduced to her true size.

    The roads to N. Caucasus r also between
    Love to see HATO try and narrow that gap even by a few metres...
    Israel also has nukes, strong army, navy & AF but won't let go of the West Bank & the Gollans. Do u get my meaning?

    But then if White Americans can carry out hate crimes against Indians on a regular basis (as they normally do) why should they migrate to Canada, Australia, NZ?
    there r a lot more Blacks here that can fight back, as recent events showed.


    Last edited by Tsavo Lion on Tue Jan 12, 2021 6:58 am; edited 1 time in total
    GarryB
    GarryB

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    Indian Navy and Naval Aicraft: News - Page 15 Empty Re: Indian Navy and Naval Aicraft: News

    Post  GarryB Tue Jan 12, 2021 6:47 am

    For instance, earlier today several Indian players were abused in Australia simply because Australia could not win a test match at home.

    Aussies are probably more racist than white south africans... I mean it wasn't till about 1967 before they started counting Abbos as people... before then they were counted as Flora and Fauna...

    They do love their sport but as you point out are generally poor losers.

    The only time I like to see the Poms win is beating the Aussies in the Ashes.. not that I watch a lot of sport...

    they want to be able to operate with the US & RNs, not just off the coast, possibly near the Malacca Strait & in the SC Sea.

    They want to go to Chinese waters... well they deserve to have to spend too much on crap American old obsolete planes and get their arses kicked by Chinese variants of Russian anti ship missiles...

    - back then she was leaning to USSR who had its own PRC problem; not relevant now & for the next decade or more.

    You don't get it do you... I guess it is the country you live in. Russia and China are not best buddies... and they are certainly not attached at the hip... but they can be civil and trade and sign agreements and be good neighbours without needing to sign up to great military alliances.

    If India wants a war with China then they will get one... and both countries will lose... and the US will love it because they benefit from both countries suffering now at a time when they could be cooperating and improving their situations.... and their contribution to peace and prosperity... scalp some injuns... make em pay top dollar for muskets and powder... I guess not much has really changed then I guess...

    -much smaller Turkey got & tested them against F-16/35s despite sanctions;

    Got and tested what?

    No F-35s flew in Turkish airspace. The first two F-35s the Turks got they flew in the US... thousands of kms away from any S-400 they operated or tested.

    They were not allowed to buy Patriot or THAAD missiles... Obama wouldn't let them.

    India won't get humiliated.

    India is being fleeced and led down the path to war with a large and powerful neighbour... who gives a fuck about pride... this is going to cost millions of lives and piss away trillions of dollars in an unnecessary conflict... or more likely series of conflicts as a surrogate for the US military who is too afraid to fight China on its own... hell they needed coalitions of the stupid to fight Iraq... they aren't going to fight Iran let alone China on their own...

    .-she can order them too, once they see it's what they need. But they won't be delivered in time as the VKS is more important then the IAF.

    India making major purchases of US equipment including CVNs might cool down relations with Russia to the point where they might decide not to sell their best stuff any more.

    The lease on the nuclear sub they currently operate might be the last... but it is OK... I am sure America will offer a lease on a Sea Wolf or Virginia class...

    - the US overpaid for the MI-17s which were bought for the Afghan AF

    AFAIK the US did over pay for teh Mi-17s but only because they are dumb fucks. They were not allowed to buy directly from the Russians so they got a middle man company to handle the transaction and of course that middleman greatly increased the prices without adding value to the deal... it was their own fault.

    Malaysia, Indonesia, Mexico , & Peru operate(d) US & Soviet/Russian made aircraft.

    Countries that can't afford to spend enormous amounts of money on weapons so if the US offers low interest loans to buy US aircraft then they buy some old stock worn out second hand junk. Obviously they realise that Soviet and Russian stuff actually works and is probably rather cheaper and buy that as well.

    The US tolerates it because they realise there is not much blood in that stone so there is no point kicking up a fuss.

    - Indian CV/Ns won't be tiny (if Vikramaditya can use MiG-29Ks, Vikrant can handle F-14/18s), & be useful to US/NATO in "policing" the IO;

    What the fuck business does the US or HATO have in the Indian Ocean... just that statement shows your and their agenda... get them to pay for enormously expensive gear and get them to perform jobs in your interests and pretend you are working together... but anything of interest to India... like a Pakistani cross border terrorist attack and listen to the deafening silence from the US and HATO...

    Fuck HATO, India can already dominate the Indian ocean... the only threats to that are HATO and the US.

    India meanwhile has her own score with China to settle; if the PLAN has to establish a permanent IO squadron or deploy more assets there, its forces will get stretched, making the US 7th fleet job easier.

    Now you are giving away the plans... India buddying up with Australia and the US and Japan and getting crap old US carriers will force China to react... most likely sending one of their carrier groups and basing it in Pakistan or Bangledesh in the interests of protecting the sea route from Asia to Europe, and that will be the US's ideal opportunity to suggest perhaps if India uses US carriers anyway perhaps the 7th US fleet could operate from an Indian port too... having the 7th fleet in Japan is limiting, but in Australia and India as well would allow it excellent coverage of its area of operations... do they mention to the Indians that the Indian ocean is the 7th fleets domain?

    Hilarious that the plan is to make the Indian Navy into a surrogate US Naval force.... a repeat of operation get behind the darkies that was used in the conflict against Canada?

    Sad that Indians don't see this for what it is... America is using them in their new proxy war against China because China is becoming an economic rival to the US hegemony...

    - even if so, those MiG-29s could be transferred to the AF or sold.

    Why get rid of the cheaper in service aircraft? Just don't buy any American planes and use the money saved to buy more MiGs and invest in the Indian economy.

    .- they can stay topside

    No they can't.

    All the machine shops are below decks... you can't maintain aircraft on the deck.

    Vikrant is bigger & future CVNs, even if not ex-USN, will be even more roomy.

    Future Indian Carriers are not certain and at the very least will be decades away.

    Hornets will be obsolete by then.

    -they can be remarked; digital displays may be able show both.

    All the calculations and software and systems will be calculating in archaic number systems... the potential for screwups is enormous.

    -Japan, SK, Iran(before 1979), Turkey, Pakistan, Australia, Brazil, & France became strong regional powers under US "protection" & tutelage, if not tacit support.

    None of those countries are powers of any significant power except for France and the US had nothing to do with their power. Most of the time they are not an independent power and just follow what Washington or Brussels tells them... they are puppets... any power they had came from the hand up their arse.

    India has a chance to reap the same benefit, being non-PRC friendly & having a long land border with it & her other Asian friends. She's also secure from any Russian pressure.

    India was in the process of greatly increasing trade and relations with Russia... investments in the Russian Far East energy projects... if they want to get in to bed with Uncle Sam that is going to have to stop for a start... haven't you noticed... the west does not share and does not like independent streaks in their puppets and poodles.

    -an independent regional, but not a superpower, truncated as she is, with no strategic depth.

    What strategic depth did the UK have when it was a super power... what strategic depth did the Soviets have... eastern europe was more of a drag on its power than any benefit. The US is currently two different countries that wont even speak to each other... the democraps are trying to get all the republicans put in jail or just shot like dogs.

    [qutoe] If India had Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iran, Nepal, Tibet, Indochina, & Indonesia, then she could become a superpower.[/quote]

    If all those countries could be joined together to form a super band... then why not drop those useless fucks... ie Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iran, Nepal, Tibet, Indochina, & Indonesia, and try the same with Brazil and Russia and China and South Africa... a much more sound base for a superpower... rich in human resources... india and china have a quarter of the worlds population... energy and resources and technology... but that is exactly what the US and Japan and Australia are trying to break...

    Being allied with RF & PRC will put her in subordinated position to either or both.

    Of course because Russia has always told India what they should or should not do, and demanded India fall into line and behave... oops no... that has never happened... but remember those sanctions when India decided to test her own nuclear weapon... that was from the west wasn't it? Why would the west not want India to be able to defend herself?

    -clone has the same DNA as its donor.

    How can you prove your DNA is different to his? A clone does not necessarily have identical DNA... It does not mean you would be identical twins...

    Dolly the sheep didn't look the same as the sheep she was cloned from.

    -but NATO may think otherwise.

    Who gives a shit what they think...

    - I heard many workers were fired by Italians for being lazy & their lack of discipline. In the USSR, there was no incentive to work well at state enterprises; after the Italians left, it became another Soviet mis-managed auto plant. Old habits die hard!

    Yeah, Su-57s and hypersonic missiles and T-14 tanks are made by lazy censored with no work ethic and no discipline... right.

    Perhaps the problem was that the managers lacked the concept of communism and lacked the skills to motivate their workforce... there are plenty of ways to motivate a group of people to work hard and work together as a team... clearly they didn't understand their workers.

    I like chocolate ice cream with a particular flavor, but if there's another flavor, I'll want to try it too, as it might taste better. The same with Russian & US made aircraft. India got so used to MiGs & Sukhois like tire shop mechs & clerks to new tire smell; she may feel its time to try Hornets,

    How many billion dollars are you prepared to commit to trying a different flavour of icecream... which might require not just different spoons and plates to try but also a totally new house with a different type of driveway and transport system to get the icecream to your new totally different but otherwise the same remodelled kitchen... that cost 15 billion dollars.... hmmm it is OK... but needs every house on the block to be replaced with the new icecream compatible driveways and kitchens. Oh, and you need a new shipping port and air ports as well... only cost a few trillion... all to get a new flavour that might.... I say might upset the Chinese... what... Panda flavoured ice cream?

    So you are spending billions or even trillions of extra dollars over the next 20-30 years to piss off your neighbours... to get them to spend even more because if you piss them off you have to understand they are going to want to do the same to you... so they will spend billions or trillions... but they are in a much better position to be able to afford that of course and they might be smart... they might start building military bases in Bangledesh and Sri Lanka and Pakistan... they might locate cruise missile bases in those places... they never signed any INF treaties so they could pump out hundreds of thousands of cheap light simple cruise missiles and base them on Indias borders... the first 20,000 might be shot down right away but the next 20,000 will likely be a problem as missiles and cannon shells run out and your defence forces are exhausted... but they can keep launching them because they are cheap... we saw that Russian drone with a 3D printed jet engine... they could print out enormous numbers of missiles fairly easily and making the electronics... well the electronics in a modern phone would be enough... hell they could use them to target cell phone towers... the equivalent of carpet bombing the place... all for a fraction of the cost of one US carrier with Hornets...

    esp. if it'll show China that she means business.

    Yeah... them Chinese will fold like an origami horse... like Putin folds every time the west imposes sanctions on him... China will become Indias bitch the same way Russia is Americas bitch... NOT.

    The CIA still operates in Pakistan and murder drones still fly there too.- it's easier to say were the CIA doesn't operate with drones; I doubt they r active there now, after killing so many innocents .

    America never leaves.... there are clearly still pro Israeli cells in Iran... no doubt set up during the CIAs time there... festering and corrupting...

    - the PRC has them in & near the SC Sea but builds her 3rd carrier.

    The PRC has plans for various trade routes from Europe to Asia and back, but do you think that is all... they will want to expand to central and south america and africa too... which means their navy needs to be a powerful global force to support their operations world wide... that is why the US wants India to engage them in a stupid and wasteful conflict that should damage both countries. The Chinese are clever though and will likely design their counters to Indias actions so that they are not money wasted and useless for any other purpose... cruise missiles based in Sri Lanka and Bangledesh and Pakistan could easily be transplanted to other regions for similar defensive overwhelming attacks.... they might even have arsenal ships or subs or barges that can be moved from place to place...

    - I don't think they'll risk losing India over that.

    If India is buying S-400s then they don't have her.... remember... you are with us or you are with the terrorists...

    - in that case, she won't need F-18s & can then sell them.

    Sell them to who? You don't own US weapons and equipment... you need American permission to sell anything they made and if you don't get that permission you are screwed. New Zealand had some Skyhawks... if we had followed the plan and sold them and bought F-16s to replace them there would be no problems at all, but we decided that we are so far from anything and when we go on peace keeping missions there are already plenty of fighter aircraft... us bringing a dozen more would be of no help at all so we decided we didn't need fighter planes any more... America got the hump... they wanted to sell some F-16s and we didn't want them so they didn't let us sell our Skyhawks to anyone. There were several countries that could have bought some... we upgraded ours to be probably the most capable versions you could get with F-16 technology, but the US refused to give permission to sell so other countries that used Skyhawks couldn't buy them... if they did the US would cut off their support and they would be screwed too.

    Took about 12 years before the US let us sell some... assholes.

    - even the CV-41 & CV-61 which were narrower than Vikramaditya had them on board . With wings spread, they get enough lift to take off the rump.

    The width of the ship is irrelevant... the size and location of the aircraft lifts is what matters... F-14s are long aircraft... and certainly not light either.

    .- it won't be more costly than what Iran pays to keep them flying.

    Iran got no choice in the matter and has probably spent the equivalent of billions to keep those planes barely operational.

    U said they could be upgraded in the USN service instead of developing F-18E/Fs (& which u complain will be too costly to India), but deny the same to the INAF. Good example of ur bias 2x standard!

    Nothing to do with bias... the USN has a direct and open relationship with all the companies and factories that built the damn plane... at the time they had all the drawings and companies that were making spare parts to keep their aircraft flying and fully operational. They also had companies making upgraded avionics for their F-18s and F-35s who were therefore able to make upgraded systems and components for carrier based aircraft who could be paid to modify their stuff to fit in to F-14s.

    India has never seen an F-14... never made anything like it never made anything new like it, has no MIC able to make new avionics or radars or systems to upgrade it in any way or form.

    If the US doesn't want F-14s then why would India want them?

    And if they do then perhaps Russia should offer to sell Yak-38s to India maybe... they could make thousands and operate them from super cheap little helicopter carriers and light barges in the middle of the ocean....

    The Thais came for S. China, so ethnically they r not that different anyway.

    They just look different... and talk different and have a different culture...

    .-what matters is that PRC & China so far avoided becoming bitter enemies.

    So you want India to take that bullet.... I understand why the US thinks it is a great plan, but not really getting what is in it for India.

    -but they still failed to stop the recent mosque attack by an Australian.

    Very few Maori are Muslim. Besides... I suspect and hope he is living a new life now... regular enemas can be very therapeutic I hear...

    .-if it is so, they would have bought more Rafales or some other fighters instead.

    They wanted more Rafales... they wanted 126 of them but the French wouldn't budge and so they bought 36... and I suspect any future purchases will be so eye wateringly expensive they will have to be in tiny batches too...

    Experience with them will lead the Indians to making demands for their Su-30MKI upgrades and any 5th gen fighter programme, which should lead to the Russians upping their game in specific areas...

    - with IRPs, they r strategic in the E/SE Asia context, & that's why the PLAAF will keep them, under H-6 designations.

    The targets they can reach would be better engaged with ballistic missiles in the form of IRBMs... faster and safer with no crew at risk...

    which will be OK as she always complains about quality & support for imported Russian arms.

    Russian stuff is not perfect... critical feed back is a good thing. The conflict in Syria has been invaluable in that regard where new and even existing equipment can be tested and checked to see if it does what they want it to do... The quality and performance of Russian weapons and equipment has benefited massively from such experience and use. Complaints by the UAE over the original Pantsir system led to massive upgrades of the electronic sensors and systems and led to a much better weapon system...

    - a dying organism wants to live longer & only prolongs its agony. India hopes to survive longer in its struggle with China now; later she may discard the West & join the BRI to the delight of all of S. Asia & Russia, but by then she'll be reduced to her true size.

    Countries don't die... even seriously broken ones like the Ukraine and its self inflicted collapse. India is not going to disappear or dissolve... it is always going to become a world power... but it needs the right leader who can impliment the right reforms and changes... Russia was never going to get better if everything stayed the same way it was in the 1990s.... just like China was never going to grow if it kept to what it was doing in the 1970s and 1980s... countries that are not moving forward and developing and improving often need fundamental changes because it is the organisation and structure and the culture that is stopping them from ever becoming more than they are... a broken mess.

    Israel also has nukes, strong army, navy & AF but won't let go of the West Bank & the Gollans. Do u get my meaning?

    The thing is that Israeli is a tiny country with a few million people and lots more hostile millions within their borders. Their ability to hold captured territory is limited by who backs her and also who chooses to take her on.

    Israel could not use nukes to stop Syria taking back Syrian territory... unless they nuked the territory they were protecting... to say if we can't have it then you can't either...

    there r a lot more Blacks here that can fight back, as recent events showed.

    But wouldn't they enjoy killing blacks in the country they see and theirs?

    There are plenty of non whites in New Zealand and Australia... and probably fewer racist whites prepared to back them up... though not as few as I would like.

    Funny thing is that you get a catholic Irishman and a protestant Irishman and they both emmigrate to New Zealand... and they meet in the street... nothing would probably happen. In Ireland the first question might be what is your religion of choice.... in New Zealand it would be... did you see the All Blacks play last night... most people here don't give a shit about religion.

    Tsavo Lion
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    Indian Navy and Naval Aicraft: News - Page 15 Empty Re: Indian Navy and Naval Aicraft: News

    Post  Tsavo Lion Tue Jan 12, 2021 9:32 am

    GarryB wrote:If India wants a war with China...- she doesn't; she wants to be able to prevent a war with her & Pakistan, by getting stronger & better prepared.

    -much smaller Turkey got & tested them against F-16/35s despite sanctions;
    Got and tested what? No F-35s flew in Turkish airspace. -and possibly F-22s too.

    India won't get humiliated.
    India is being fleeced and led down the path to war with a large and powerful neighbour... who gives a fuck about pride... this is going to cost millions of lives and piss away trillions of dollars in an unnecessary conflict...- the US is capitalizing on India's fears; it's an old "maintaining the balance of power" play perfected by the British in Europe but now applied in Asia.

    .-she can order them too, once they see it's what they need. But they won't be delivered in time as the VKS is more important then the IAF.
    India making major purchases of US equipment including CVNs might cool down relations with Russia to the point where they might decide not to sell their best stuff any more.-iIMO Russia can't afford to walk away from a large arms/nuclear energy market in India.

    The lease on the nuclear sub they currently operate might be the last... but it is OK... - Indian Navy officials have confirmed ongoing efforts to get its hands on another nuclear-powered submarine from Moscow after India signed a $3 billion deal in 2019. ..India has shown interest in Boeing’s twin engine multi-role fighters F-15EX, contradicting America's proposal of F-16 and F-18. Boeing Vice President Pratyush Kumar stated in February 2020 that the company was seeking a license to export the F-15EX to India.The new submarine is expected to arrive by 2025.

    Malaysia, Indonesia, Mexico, & Peru operate(d) US & Soviet/Russian made aircraft.
    The US tolerates it ..-as u call used US arms junk, the US calls new Russian arms junk, as it's downgraded for export & not as good (in their view) as theirs. India now has nothing to lose as she already got sanctioned for S-400 deal & can still buy other Russian arms.

    - Indian CV/Ns won't be tiny (if Vikramaditya can use MiG-29Ks, Vikrant can handle F-14/18s), & be useful to US/NATO in "policing" the IO;
    What the fuck business does the US or HATO have in the Indian Ocean... just that statement shows your and their agenda...-I got no agenda, just try to explain their possible strategy. The US/EU has global agenda & interests; NATO been expanding its AORs since 9/11/01.
    Fuck HATO, India can already dominate the Indian ocean...-not w/o being challenged on land, in the air & at sea by Pakistan & PRC combine.

    India meanwhile has her own score with China to settle; if the PLAN has to establish a permanent IO squadron or deploy more assets there, its forces will get stretched, making the US 7th fleet job easier.
    Hilarious that the plan is to make the Indian Navy into a surrogate US Naval force.... America is using them in their new proxy war against China because China is becoming an economic rival to the US hegemony...-it may end up that way; but if not, both navies will balance the PLAN & PN there, effectively keeping them in check.

    Future Indian Carriers are not certain and at the very least will be decades away. Hornets will be obsolete by then.- the Vikrant will be commissioned soon; the Vishal CVN may not take more than 10-15 years to design & build.

    India has a chance to reap the same benefit, being non-PRC friendly & having a long land border with it & her other Asian friends. She's also secure from any Russian pressure.

    India was in the process of greatly increasing trade and relations with Russia... investments in the Russian Far East energy projects... if they want to get in to bed with Uncle Sam that is going to have to stop for a start...-they can do it through front companies. also, both r weaning away from the US$ by using other currencies &/ bartering.
    -an independent regional, but not a superpower, truncated as she is, with no strategic depth.
    What strategic depth did the UK have when it was a super power...- she had Canada, Australia, India, Burma, Malaysia, & S. Africa. what strategic depth did the Soviets have...- the Urals & Siberia is what helped defeat the Nazi Germany & her allies. Population & arms factories were evacuated there, out of rich of enemy bombers.

    [qutoe] If India had Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iran, Nepal, Tibet, Indochina, & Indonesia, then she could become a superpower.
    If all those countries could be joined together to form a super band... then why not drop those useless fucks... ie  Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iran, Nepal, Tibet, Indochina, & Indonesia, and try the same with Brazil and Russia and China and South Africa...-they r not contagious, but separated by oceans & r too ethnically/racially diverse to form a superpower. Even similar nations of L. America couldn't hold together after becoming independent of Spain.

    Being allied with RF & PRC will put her in subordinated position to either or both.
    Of course because Russia has always told India what they should or should not do, and demanded India fall into line and behave... oops no... that has never happened...-In such a triangular relationship, RF & PRC interests will dictate to & constrain India in many ways. India won't put herself in that position, even if it's remotely possible.

    -clone has the same DNA as its donor.
    How can you prove your DNA is different to his? - I posted my DNA test results & can send u copy. Hitler wasn't 70% Jewish, 16% Italian + E. Slavic like I am.

    -but NATO may think otherwise.
    Who gives a shit what they think...-they'll also act accordingly.

    The CIA still operates in Pakistan and murder drones still fly there too.- it's easier to say were the CIA doesn't operate with drones; I doubt they r active there now, after killing so many innocents .

    America never leaves.... there are clearly still pro Israeli cells in Iran...-they all were busted & the spies executed; the orthodox Iranian Jews r anti-Israel.

    - the PRC has them in & near the SC Sea but builds her 3rd carrier.
    The PRC has plans for various trade routes from Europe to Asia and back, but do you think that is all... they will want to expand to central and south america and africa too...- India can also justify a blue water navy since she trades with E. Asia, Europe, Africa, & the Americas, bypassing the BRI, with her nationals there that may need to be evacuated as they were in Libya.

    - I don't think they'll risk losing India over that.
    If India is buying S-400s then they don't have her.... remember... you are with us or you are with the terrorists...- that Bushism is long dead. Greece bought S-300s & is still on good terms with USA. It's way too early to put a cross on India-US relations.

    - in that case, she won't need F-18s & can then sell them.
    Took about 12 years before the US let us sell some... assholes.- better late than never. If they were leased, no need to sell, just return. The Indians r not stupid!

    - even the CV-41 & CV-61 which were narrower than Vikramaditya had them on board . With wings spread, they get enough lift to take off the rump.
    The width of the ship is irrelevant... the size and location of the aircraft lifts is what matters... F-14s are long aircraft... and certainly not light either.- or they could use a big ship/barge with big lifts & hangar bays that can join their CVs at the stern to tow F-14/18s onto their flight decks. It could also carry AWACS & SAR/COD planes/helos & UAVs, etc.

    .- it won't be more costly than what Iran pays to keep them flying.
    Iran got no choice in the matter and has probably spent the equivalent of billions to keep those planes barely operational.-I doubt it. they cannibalized & smuggled parts before learning to produce them. Now they can also make their own fighters based on the F-5.

    U said they could be upgraded in the USN service instead of developing F-18E/Fs (& which u complain will be too costly to India), but deny the same to the INAF. Good example of ur bias 2x standard!
    India has never seen an F-14... never made anything like it never made anything new like it, has no MIC able to make new avionics or radars or systems to upgrade it in any way or form.- Iran could help with all that, no need for India to get involved with a few training/stop gap planes.

    .-what matters is that PRC & Singapore so far avoided becoming bitter enemies.
    So you want India to take that bullet.... I understand why the US thinks it is a great plan, but not really getting what is in it for India.- I don't want India to do anything.

    .-if it is so, they would have bought more Rafales or some other fighters instead.
    They wanted more Rafales... they wanted 126 of them but the French wouldn't budge and so they bought 36...-now they'll have different fighters to compare & evaluate them in Indian conditions. As Sun Tzu stated: "know ur enemy, know urself & u'll not be defeated".

    - a dying organism wants to live longer & only prolongs its agony. India hopes to survive longer in its struggle with China now; later she may discard the West & join the BRI to the delight of all of S. Asia & Russia, but by then she'll be reduced to her true size.
    Countries don't die... even seriously broken ones like the Ukraine and its self inflicted collapse. India is not going to disappear or dissolve... it is always going to be a world power...- she can implode; the USSR didn't look like it was going to, but it did with a bang.

    there r a lot more Blacks here that can fight back, as recent events showed.
    But wouldn't they enjoy killing blacks in the country they see and theirs?- some would, but most people want to be left alone & r tired of having to be politically correct with Blacks & LGBT./quote]
    GarryB
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    Indian Navy and Naval Aicraft: News - Page 15 Empty Re: Indian Navy and Naval Aicraft: News

    Post  GarryB Tue Jan 12, 2021 11:21 am

    - she doesn't; she wants to be able to prevent a war with her & Pakistan, by getting stronger & better prepared.

    China will quickly work out that like with HATO it is the US that is in charge and talking to the EU or individual european states is meaningless... you talk to Washington. Poking the dragon will result in the Dragon getting on much better terms with Pakistan and relations there dramatically improving causing rather more problems for India than it solves.

    No F-35s flew in Turkish airspace. -and possibly F-22s too .

    So the justification for not allowing Turkey to take delivery of its F-35s is bullshit then if they already tracked F-35s and F-22s in Syria...

    Russian S-300V4 systems in Syria were already tracking both anyway... so Turkey having S-400s was meaningless.

    - the US is capitalizing on India's fears; it's an old "maintaining the balance of power" play perfected by the British in Europe but now applied in Asia.

    Yeah, they should be patting themselves on the back... billions of dollars wasted on both sides, lots of unnecessary hostility and hatred... so they could control countries and make them buy their weapons... Europe doesn't even buy British weapons any more anyway... just the Saudis murdering neighbours in flip flops... or getting killed these days...

    -iIMO Russia can't afford to walk away from a large arms/nuclear energy market in India .

    India is not really giving them much choice... and once they have some solid contracts signed the US is going to very much limit Indias ability to manouver too with all sorts of demands...

    -as u call used US arms junk, the US calls new Russian arms junk, as it's downgraded for export & not as good (in their view) as theirs.

    Americans think war is a game because it has not come to them in such a long time... their reckless behaviour around the world is going to lead to them coming very much face to face with that junk.

    The big bully has no respect for the big quiet polite kid...

    Right now they are eating their own... trying to put a president in jail... what could possibly go wrong... what future president will be safe?

    India now has nothing to lose as she already got sanctioned for S-400 deal & can still buy other Russian arms.

    Of course... the US has learned its lesson... its threats of sanctions have failed so now it will play nice and accept defeat and there will be no more talk of further sanctions or petty actions to try to damage India and force her to do as she is told like the 8 year old little girl that she is.

    Which is totally ironic because it is pretty clear which is the child...

    -not w/o being challenged on land, in the air & at sea by Pakistan & PRC combine.

    What are you talking about?

    The sea power of Pakistan is pathetic and could not challenge India... and what else are the Indian Navy going to be doing... invading Pakistan and China simultaneously by air and land? What are the Indian Air Force and Army going to be doing?

    - the Vikrant will be commissioned soon; the Vishal CVN may not take more than 10-15 years to design & build.

    The Vikrant is about 5 years late and over budget.... WTF are India going to do with 15 billion dollar Hornets for 15 years while they are waiting for carriers that can actually operate them?

    They might as well buy F-16s... at least they would be cheaper... get second hand ones from European countries getting F-35s.

    -they can do it through front companies. also, both r weaning away from the US$ by using other currencies &/ bartering.

    The US has the biggest spy network on the planet and certainly the best funded spy network... you think they will not notice... or will notice and ignore...

    The US is going to demand India pay in US dollars so they increase their earnings when India has to buy US dollars to buy US military crap.

    - she had Canada, Australia, India, Burma, Malaysia, & S. Africa.

    Bullshit... Britain lost the Boer war and never commanded South Africa... and they lost India and Myanmar and Malaysia, so Canada and Australia.... what an empire... don't forget New Zealand too...

    Population & arms factories were evacuated there, out of rich of enemy bombers.

    The Germans didn't have any long range bombers.

    -they r not contagious, but separated by oceans & r too ethnically/racially diverse to form a superpower.

    Separated by oceans like Canada, UK, Australia and New Zealand... and what does race have to do with anything... you claimed India was an important part of the British empire... well was she or wasn't she?

    Even similar nations of L. America couldn't hold together after becoming independent of Spain.

    Spain lost power and the US stepped in to that power vacuum...

    .-they'll also act accordingly.

    The actions of HATO mean nothing. At the end of the day they send troops over any borders with Russia they will be nuked... the troops, their reserves, and the HQ that ordered it.

    .-they all were busted & the spies executed;

    All? Seems to be able to kill people in Iran and escape easily enough...

    - that Bushism is long dead. Greece bought S-300s & is still on good terms with USA. It's way too early to put a cross on India-US relations.

    Alive and kicking. Greece is too important to HATO and the EU to drop. Ukraine on the other hand has to choose and it can't choose Russia... and the same with Georgia and Belarus if they get any say.

    Took about 12 years before the US let us sell some... assholes.- better late than never. If they were leased, no need to sell, just return. The Indians r not stupid!

    They have not signed anything so there is nothing to return.

    - or they could use a big ship/barge with big lifts & hangar bays that can join their CVs at the stern to tow F-14/18s onto their flight decks. It could also carry AWACS & SAR/COD planes/helos & UAVs, etc.

    Or they could make Dr Who's Tardis and have it sitting on the edge of the deck or even better the Masters Tardis and transform it into a big long box the size and shape of an F-14 but only 1m thick with a sliding door over the front and they could have it sitting on the edge of the deck and roll the F-14s on to the deck when you need them and take them in to the tardis when you don't... no need for elevators at all...

    -I doubt it. they cannibalized & smuggled parts before learning to produce them. Now they can also make their own fighters based on the F-5.

    They operated the aircraft for years and knew which parts were which and what needed replacing and how often...

    They can make a fighter that externally looks like an F-5, but an F-5 was cheap and simple to make which is why it sold well. Being able to make that is like being able to make a container ship and thinking you are ready to make CVNs.

    Iran could help with all that, no need for India to get involved with a few training/stop gap planes.

    India doesn't want old American shit... they don't want and have never expressed any interest in F-14s or F-4s or F-5s or A-4s or Mustangs.

    - I don't want India to do anything.

    You want an Indian Meat Shield. You want someone to fight China because whoever fights China will take damage and you don't want the US to take that damage, so you are telling India to be tough and strong and that China will respect that and listen and treat you as an equal... which you know is bullshit because so far it has not worked for the US against Russia or China.

    As Sun Tzu stated: "know ur enemy, know urself & u'll not be defeated".

    So you are saying India should buy Hornets so they understand what their enemy flys... bloody expensive way to find that out...

    Couldn't they just watch Top Gun over and over... till their eyes bleed?

    the USSR didn't look like it was going to, but it did with a bang.

    Course it did... it was made up of about 13 very different regions with different ethnic groups.

    - some would, but most people want to be left alone & r tired of having to be politically correct with Blacks & LGBT

    You can either go the "if you don't love it then leave" route, or if you love it then pull your finger out and make it better... just don't complain to me about it...
    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion Tue Jan 12, 2021 9:19 pm

    GarryB wrote:So the justification for not allowing Turkey to take delivery of its F-35s is bullshit then if they already tracked F-35s and F-22s in Syria...- it's a punishment.
    -iIMO Russia can't afford to walk away from a large arms/nuclear energy market in India .
    India is not really giving them much choice... and once they have some solid contracts signed the US is going to very much limit Indias ability to manouver too with all sorts of demands...- India isn't that stupid & won't sign any big contracts with bad fine print to be able to play the US, France & RF off each other.  
    -not w/o being challenged on land, in the air & at sea by Pakistan & PRC combine.
    What are you talking about?
    The sea power of Pakistan is pathetic and could not challenge India... - China builds more ships, subs & planes for them & for Bangladesh with Myanmar
    and what else are the Indian Navy going to be doing... invading Pakistan and China simultaneously by air and land? What are the Indian Air Force and Army going to be doing?-getting/staying ready to deter/check/resist any Chinese naval expansion in the the IOR.  
    - the Vikrant will be commissioned soon; the Vishal CVN may not take more than 10-15 years to design & build.
    The Vikrant is about 5 years late and over budget.... WTF are India going to do with 15 billion dollar Hornets for 15 years while they are waiting for carriers that can actually operate them?- the Vikrant will be able to use them, otherwise why test their rump performance in the US? should their own fighter not be ready by 2030-35, the Vishal will carry even more F-18s.
    They might as well buy F-16s... at least they would be cheaper... get second hand ones from European countries getting F-35s.- poor choice for a naval fighter for Indians who want it to have 2 engines.
    - she had Canada, Australia, India, Burma, Malaysia, & S. Africa.
    Bullshit... Britain lost the Boer war and never commanded South Africa... and they lost India and Myanmar and Malaysia, so Canada and Australia.... what an empire... don't forget New Zealand too...- u asked "at the height of its power", before 1947, so I included them.
    Population & arms factories were evacuated there, out of rich of enemy bombers.
    The Germans didn't have any long range bombers.-exactly, & those plants were out of reach of those they did have. Even if their Ural bombers came out, they wouldn't have been very effective-by then, the Red AF would have enough bombers/fighters to deal with them on the ground & in the air.
    -they r not contagious, but separated by oceans & r too ethnically/racially diverse to form a superpower.
    Separated by oceans like Canada, UK, Australia and New Zealand... -the Gr.  Britain ruled those waves with the RN.
    and what does race have to do with anything...you claimed India was an important part of the British empire... well was she or wasn't she?-she was, as her elites ruled her subjects on Britain's behalf. Just like the Dutch in Indonesia & French in Indochina.
    Even similar nations of L. America couldn't hold together after becoming independent of Spain.
    Spain lost power and the US stepped in to that power vacuum...-that happened many decades later, after the 1848 US-Mexico & 1898 Spanish-American Wars.
    - that Bushism is long dead. Greece bought S-300s & is still on good terms with USA. It's way too early to put a cross on India-US relations.
    Alive and kicking. Greece is too important to HATO and the EU to drop. Ukraine on the other hand has to choose and it can't choose Russia... and the same with Georgia and Belarus if they get any say.- India is in the class of her own that can't be dictated to like them; NK, Turkey & Pakistan r much weaker but stood up to US pressure.
    Took about 12 years before the US let us sell some... assholes.- better late than never. If they were leased, no need to sell, just return. The Indians r not stupid!
    They have not signed anything so there is nothing to return. -that may change, so don't move the goal posts in our discussion!
    India doesn't want old American shit... they don't want and have never expressed any interest in F-14s or F-4s or F-5s or A-4s or Mustangs. -After 2024, India can also/instead get F-15EXs (see my prev. post), which would replace their MiG-25s, take the F-111/Su-34 role & augment the IAF Su-30s.
    It could even be navalized. R u going to call it an "old shit" too?

    - or they could use a big ship/barge with big lifts & hangar bays that can join their CVs at the stern to tow F-14/18s onto their flight decks. It could also carry AWACS & SAR/COD planes/helos & UAVs, etc.
    Or they could make Dr Who's Tardis and have it sitting on the edge of the deck or even better the Masters Tardis and transform it into a big long box the size and shape of an F-14 but only 1m thick with a sliding door over the front and they could have it sitting on the edge of the deck and roll the F-14s on to the deck when you need them and take them in to the tardis when you don't... no need for elevators at all...-all of that is a lot more preposterous & absurdist than my idea.
    -I doubt it. they cannibalized & smuggled parts before learning to produce them. Now they can also make their own fighters based on the F-5.
    They can make a fighter that externally looks like an F-5, but an F-5 was cheap and simple to make which is why it sold well. Being able to make that is like being able to make a container ship and thinking you are ready to make CVNs.- China had 2 old Kiev TAKRs & HMAS Melbourne to study, finished the CV-16, & built CV-17; the CV-18 will be a flattop. The same with MiG-19/21s & Su-27/30/33s. In time, Iran will be able to make F-15/16/18 counterparts.
    - I don't want India to do anything.
    You want an Indian Meat Shield. You want someone to fight China because whoever fights China will take damage and you don't want the US to take that damage, so you are telling India to be tough and strong and that China will respect that and listen and treat you as an equal...-no, I'm neutral, but understand the reasoning behind US actions toward India in the context of their mutual rivalry with PRC.
    As Sun Tzu stated: "know ur enemy, know urself & u'll not be defeated".
    So you are saying India should buy Hornets so they understand what their enemy flys... bloody expensive way to find that out...-Hornets won't give them that, but will expand their Horizons; they already have dozens of Su-30s that the PLA/NAF also flies. OTH, China won't be getting airworthy captured F-15/18s any time soon, if ever.
    the USSR didn't look like it was going to, but it did with a bang.
    Course it did... it was made up of about 13 very different regions with different ethnic groups.-15 republics & 11 time zones, 1/6th of the Earth surface with 4 main religions, & dozens of languages.
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Wed Jan 13, 2021 5:06 am

    - it's a punishment.

    A worse punishment would have been to demand they buy 500 instead of just the 100 they ordered... it is a white elephant that will pump enormous amounts of money out of any country that operates it. India paid much more for their Rafales but operational costs would be lower and at least they are getting a working weapon system...

    - India isn't that stupid & won't sign any big contracts with bad fine print to be able to play the US, France & RF off each other.

    Yeah, their track record so far has been amazing... paying about 230 million each for 36 Rafales when what they wanted was to licence produce Mirage 2000s...

    They ended up having to emergency order 20 extra MiG-29s because their numbers are too low... obviously when the problem is lack of fighter planes the normal way to go is find the most expensive aircraft on the planet and order them in tiny batches... so the F-18 fits right in there...

    Wonder if the people making these decisions will face trial for their criminal negligence...

    - China builds more ships, subs & planes for them & for Bangladesh with Myanmar

    And they are doing that because India is getting in to bed with Japan and the US and Australia in an alliance against China... of course they are going to respond by beefing up their alliances in the region and creating as many more as they can... that is how stupid meaningless cold wars are created and spiral out of control...

    getting/staying ready to deter/check/resist any Chinese naval expansion in the the IOR.

    The Indian ocean... despite its name is mostly international waters... they could park any ships they like there and there is absolutely nothing India or the mighty US could do about it...

    - the Vikrant will be able to use them, otherwise why test their rump performance in the US? should their own fighter not be ready by 2030-35, the Vishal will carry even more F-18s.

    After buying F-18s to operate on the Vikrant they wont be able to afford any CVNs...

    - poor choice for a naval fighter for Indians who want it to have 2 engines.

    All American planes are a poor choice.... don't try to polish a turd.

    - u asked "at the height of its power", before 1947, so I included them.

    Britain never controlled South Africa and even when India was their bitch they didn't increase Britains power.... they were just a resource bitch that sent fabric and raw materials to Britain so they can make stuff and sell it back to the colonies at ridiculous prices...

    -the Gr. Britain ruled those waves with the RN.

    Bullshit. As soon as WWI and WWII started we were told that we were basically on our own. Many large New Zealand ports had big gun mounts... they were essentially built because the UK couldn't protect us and they weren't to stop the germans or the japs or even the americans or french.... they were built to stop the Russians.

    Ironically when the Russians arrived they turned out to be the most decent visitors we had and didn't try to take land or kill the locals.

    -she was, as her elites ruled her subjects on Britain's behalf. Just like the Dutch in Indonesia & French in Indochina.

    You mean they elevated the status of scum in those places to rule over the majority... knowing the scum will be loyal to Britian because that is where their power came from.... and also if they ever lost that power the locals will take terrible revenge on them, but while they retained power they could make the majority that used to rule over them suffer...

    I understand how colonialism works... I just don't think it is very effective in getting loyalty and trust.

    The British, Dutch, and French were total bastards BTW.

    - India is in the class of her own that can't be dictated to like them; NK, Turkey & Pakistan r much weaker but stood up to US pressure.

    No they aren't. The US knows the Indian elite think they need the west and the US in particular... it is just a question of eventually getting them to sign more and more contracts and then eventually they will have to do as they are told.

    It does matter how much they spend.... if they don't spend enough then they can walk away with minimal damage, but as you suggest they spend big to buy influence... well then the spider has so many strands of web to pull the fly has no chance of escape and will be wrapped up and consumed.

    -that may change, so don't move the goal posts in our discussion!

    Don't be silly.. it is critical to this discussion... you talk about it like they are going to start local production of F-18s and get steam catapult systems for their aircraft carriers... when nothing has been decided or signed.... when the Rafales turned out to be so expensive they went back to buying 20 more MiG-29s... and when the Hornet proves unsuitable and too expensive then they likely will take a look at the MiG-35 instead which would be a sensible choice... they could also look at what new catapult system the Russians are adding to the Kuznetsov... they called it a portable catapult which is interesting and could be quite useful.

    -After 2024, India can also/instead get F-15EX s

    F-15EX couldn't replace Su-30s let alone MiG-25s.

    take the F-111/Su-34 role & augment the IAF Su-30s .

    They would be American (ie different) Su-30MKIs.... so triple the price on a new type of aircraft that is totally different from anything else they operate for a plane similar to the Su-35.

    I would think upgrades of teh Su-30MKI would be quicker and easier and cheaper.

    It could even be navalized. R u going to call it an "old shit" too?

    It can't be navalised.... that is just bullshit... and it is old shit in a new dress.

    -all of that is a lot more preposterous & absurdist than my idea.

    Actually preposterous in the sense that it is not possible I would agree, but what you are suggesting is not possible either. At least my idea would actually be useful and would give you what you want... your idea will not.

    - China had 2 old Kiev TAKRs & HMAS Melbourne to study, finished the CV-16, & built CV-17; the CV-18 will be a flattop.

    That is right, they did their home work... they looked at two different types of designs... soviet and western and examined the designs looking at problems and how those problems were solved... and from that they could work out what they might want and build something themselves... we don't know if they got it right... they will probably need to take them out and use them before problems become obvious and new design solutions formulated.

    The same with MiG-19/21s & Su-27/30/33s.

    They licence produced Soviet aircraft for decades and bought new aircraft to examine and copy too before they designed their own aircraft.... many of which are still derivations of other aircraft.

    In time, Iran will be able to make F-15/16/18 counterparts.

    Their best bet is to licence produce something so production or use cannot be cut off... MiG-35s or Su-30s or even both with the former replacing F-5s and F-4s in service and Su-30s replacing F-14s in aircraft that can be mass produced and armed with state of the art weapons. They could buy a design of AESA radar antenna and scale it so both aircraft essentially use the same radar and produce their own elements by the billion and put them on planes and ships and SAMs and AAMs etc etc... even ATGMs...

    -no, I'm neutral, but understand the reasoning behind US actions toward India in the context of their mutual rivalry with PRC.

    Yeah, you support the US pushing India under the bus... I get it... just wondering why Indians would want to join that snuff party...

    -Hornets won't give them that, but will expand their Horizons;

    Course it does... the enemy for India is clearly the US.

    OTH, China won't be getting airworthy captured F-15/18s any time soon, if ever.

    I doubt they would be interested. With the airframe of the Flanker they have an aerodynamic shell better than any US or European plane in terms of flight characteristics, and their supposed espionage of F-35 data suggests an inside knowledge of avionics that would make it a world beater if US BS marketing is to be believed.

    But look at Russian hacking of corona virus vaccines... clearly hacking ruins the original product and makes it useless so that is why Chinese stealth fighters are better than Russian ones but US stealth fighters are so broken...

    .-15 republics & 11 time zones, 1/6th of the Earth surface with 4 main religions, & dozens of languages.

    Lasted longer than the EU though.

    Sad thing is that if Putin was in charge it actually might have been transformed into a good place to live... (Soviet Union or EU...)
    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion Wed Jan 13, 2021 6:48 am

    GarryB wrote:Yeah, their track record so far has been amazing... paying about 230 million each for 36 Rafales when what they wanted was to licence produce Mirage 2000s...-they loved to get them more than keeping those $. Perhaps there was a specific capability their other planes didn't have vs. PLAAF planes.
    They ended up having to emergency order 20 extra MiG-29s because their numbers are too low...-France too ordered C-130J tankers when their A400Ms weren't ready.

    - China builds more ships, subs & planes for them & for Bangladesh with Myanmar
    And they are doing that because India is getting in to bed with Japan and the US and Australia in an alliance against China...-their combined naval forces will match or exceed the IN+other non-regional navies that will deploy there.

    getting/staying ready to deter/check/resist any Chinese naval expansion in the the IOR.  
    The Indian ocean... despite its name is mostly international waters... they could park any ships they like there and  there is absolutely nothing India or the mighty US could do about it...-true, unless the straits r blocked. But in a Mexican standoff, when pistols r aimed at both heads, as was during the USSR-USA Cold war on the high seas, there's a better chance of avoiding ur head being blown off & resolving conflicts peasefully.

    - the Vikrant will be able to use them, otherwise why test their rump performance in the US? should their own fighter not be ready by 2030-35, the Vishal will carry even more F-18s.
    After buying F-18s to operate on the Vikrant they wont be able to afford any CVNs...-even if so, ex-US CVNs will do. Over the years, the American taxpayers will save $Bs on their operation, deactivation, storing/maintaining, towing & scrapping; each will be worth 3 CVNs based in the States, since they'll be parts of a new "US deputy" toolbox.

    - poor choice for a naval fighter for Indians who want it to have 2 engines.
    All American planes are a poor choice.... don't try to polish a turd.-if they were, the Israelis, Arabs & W. Europeans & Taiwan would stick with only French planes instead. The Rafale deal is at least partially vindicated by u! Btw, the French do transfer t tech to India too.

    -the Gr. Britain ruled those waves with the RN.
    Bullshit. As soon as WWI and WWII started we were told that we were basically on our own.- I meant before WWI.
    Many large New Zealand ports had big gun mounts... they were essentially built because the UK couldn't protect us and they weren't to stop the germans or the japs or even the americans or french.... they were built to stop the Russians.- how do u know that? Russia/USSR could care less about NZ since her 1st Antarctic discovery expedition ended, w/o any land claims there.
    -she was, as her elites ruled her subjects on Britain's behalf. Just like the Dutch in Indonesia & French in Indochina.

    The British, Dutch, and French were total bastards BTW.- not sure about the Germans, but the Portuguese & Belgians belong in that category too.

    - India is in the class of her own that can't be dictated to like them; NK, Turkey & Pakistan r much weaker but stood up to US pressure.
    No they aren't. The US knows the Indian elite think they need the west and the US in particular... it is just a question of eventually getting them to sign more and more contracts and then eventually they will have to do as they are told.-I don't doubt the Indians know that, but play their own game- even if it means overpaying; if they don't, they'll get nothing & be on their own with China.

    -that may change, so don't move the goal posts in our discussion!
    Don't be silly.. it is critical to this discussion... you talk about it like they are going to start local production of F-18s and get steam catapult systems for their aircraft carriers... when nothing has been decided or signed...- I didn't say it'll absolutely be so, but it could.
    when the Rafales turned out to be so expensive they went back to buying 20 more MiG-29s... and when the Hornet proves unsuitable and too expensive then they likely will take a look at the MiG-35 instead which would be a sensible choice...-Iraq, Iran, Egypt, Indonesia & many other nations have similar types of aircraft imported from several different makers. We don't live in a perfect world.
    -After 2024, India can also/instead get F-15EX s
    F-15EX couldn't replace Su-30s let alone MiG-25s.-their past/current/future missions r the same/similar.

    take the F-111/Su-34 role & augment the IAF Su-30s .
    so triple the price on a new type of aircraft that is totally different from anything else they operate for a plane similar to the Su-35.- we covered the influence buying issue before; their MiG-29 &/ Su-30 pilots can be trained to operate them in a few months, if not weeks.
    It could even be navalized. R u going to call it an "old shit" too?
    It can't be navalised....- if there's a will & need, there's a way.
    and it is old shit in a new dress.-not different from Su-30/35 derived from the Su-27 or Tu-22M3/160M derived from Tu-22M/160 or IL-476 derived from the IL-76.

    - China had 2 old Kiev TAKRs & HMAS Melbourne to study, finished the CV-16, & built CV-17; the CV-18 will be a flattop.
    That is right, they did their home work...- the Iranians r of the same stock as the Indo-Europeans that settled N. India; they r good a doing homework too. Even the Chinese adopted many things from Persia.

    -no, I'm neutral, but understand the reasoning behind US actions toward India in the context of their mutual rivalry with PRC.
    Yeah, you support the US pushing India under the bus...-no, I do want them to make & keep peace with PRC, but again, we don't live in a perfect world where humanism & philanthropy rules. Otherwise, the proverbial free cheese wouldn't be only in a mousetrap, & there would be no wars.

    -Hornets won't give them that, but will expand their Horizons;
    Course it does... the enemy for India is clearly the US.-sure, the worst thing to being enemies with Anglo-Saxons is being friends with them. But treachery is practiced by the Chinese too. It's no secret, at least to me, that many Asians hate each other's guts, be they of the same or different regions/countries.
    OTH, China won't be getting airworthy captured F-15/18s any time soon, if ever.
    I doubt they would be interested. ..The US pilots trained against the former E. German AF MiG-29s for a reason.

    Twin-engine Deck based Fighter (TEDBF)- A new twin-engine carrier–based fighter variant, to be developed from Naval Tejas Mark 2 or independently. Chances are it will be totally different program based on Tejas Mk2 MWF and AMCA asper interest of Indian Navy. Planned for operation from INS Vikrant and INS Vishal and can replace current MiG-29K used in INS Vikramaditya and planned for use in INS Vikrant also. First 3 prototypes will be ready by 2028.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HAL_Tejas#Future_developments


    In other news, riding on Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s “Make in India” wave, France’s Dassault Aviation has shown its eagerness to make Rafale fighter jets in India, provided the volume is high enough.
    The Diplomatic Advisor to the French President, Emmanuel Bonne, who is in India, has come with an offer from the French government to make at least 100 Rafale fighters in India, ThePrint reported.

    If they produce them there, why not make a few dozen for the INAF?


    Last edited by Tsavo Lion on Sun Jan 17, 2021 1:16 am; edited 3 times in total (Reason for editing : add a quote, link)
    Sujoy
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    Post  Sujoy Sun Feb 07, 2021 11:39 am

    Indian Navy’s Maritime Reconnaissance Ilyushin-38SD aircraft successfully fired the Kh35E anti-ship missile

    https://twitter.com/ReviewVayu/status/1358064568526721028?s=20
    Backman
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    Post  Backman Sun Feb 07, 2021 8:38 pm

    [quote="Tsavo Lion"]
    GarryB wrote:

    Tejas Mk2 Planned for operation from INS Vikrant and INS Vishal and can . First 3 prototypes will be ready by 2028.




    Looks like Russia has a long term customer here lol1 lol1 lol1 lol1 lol1 lol1

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    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Mon Feb 08, 2021 10:48 am

    -they loved to get them more than keeping those $. Perhaps there was a specific capability their other planes didn't have vs. PLAAF planes.

    No one bribes like the French, plus when paying 233 million per aircraft there is lots of money being transferred from India to France... plus some secretly going into secret Swiss bank accounts...

    -France too ordered C-130J tankers when their A400Ms weren't ready.

    This is the opposite though... local assembly and production of a much cheaper aircraft... vs something they will be paying more money for than they paid for their Su-30MKIs or their upgraded modifications they keep complaining are sooo expensive.

    -their combined naval forces will match or exceed the IN+other non-regional navies that will deploy there.

    Does that mean they get a cookie?

    -true, unless the straits r blocked.

    Blocked with what?

    Chinese military ships can go the other way around the world to get to the Indian ocean they will not need to hurry to get there... they can sail between New Zealand and Australia if they want and there is no navy on the planet that could stop them, and easily reach Indian Ocean areas...

    But in a Mexican standoff, when pistols r aimed at both heads, as was during the USSR-USA Cold war on the high seas, there's a better chance of avoiding ur head being blown off & resolving conflicts peasefully.

    The problem with that analogy is that a country has a head that is tucked up safely behind thousands of kms of defences and bullets going in all directions on the high seas never results in any country getting their "head blown off" which would equate essentially to being killed.

    India with 5 ex-USN CVNs... how are they going to cope with Yakhont which China has in service and production?

    How are exUS carriers in the service of India being sunk by China going to look for the US and how will India feel about loosing that many sailors at a time?

    -even if so, ex-US CVNs will do.

    India would be even less able to afford an ex-US CVN of any type let alone one flight of aircraft to operate from them.

    Over the years, the American taxpayers will save $Bs on their operation, deactivation, storing/maintaining, towing & scrapping; each will be worth 3 CVNs based in the States, since they'll be parts of a new "US deputy" toolbox.

    Yes yes yes... I understand making new bitches... sorry Allies of great important buy worn out old American shit makes sense for the Americans... they make billions in the sale they save billions destroying those pieces of crap, and they get another country to forward deploy something you are used to operating with in the field.

    Obvious good points for the US, but how is dumping expensive crap of a type they have no experience with, and will cost a developing country billions of extra money to get usable help India.

    -if they were, the Israelis, Arabs & W. Europeans & Taiwan would stick with only French planes instead.

    Bitches take what they are given and do as they are told.

    The Rafale deal is at least partially vindicated by u! Btw, the French do transfer t tech to India too .

    Overpaying for fighters to get a better deal on a sub... Russia already leases them state of the art nuclear subs better than any French subs without overcharging them on aircraft... perhaps that is the secret... they need to ramp up the price so they realise what they are getting is good.

    - I meant before WWI.

    Not really... many New Zealand ports have old gun installations from the 19th century that were built because it was clear the British Navy would not always be there to help us out. Most were built because we were afraid the Russians were coming and when they did they were more civilised than the French or the Americans. Didn't change attitudes much here of course.

    - how do u know that? Russia/USSR could care less about NZ since her 1st Antarctic discovery expedition ended, w/o any land claims there.

    Because the gun installations were not free and had to be funded from local resources and the justification for building them was the threat of the Russian invasion.... being a British colony of course we were morons and believed all the bullshit about Russia being a rival empire wanting to steal India and the various British colonies around the world. The Brits encouraged it... probably as a control to keep us in line... the boogey man Russians will come and eat your children if we were not around to protect you.... and by the way we can't be everywhere so build your own defences too while you are at it.

    - not sure about the Germans, but the Portuguese & Belgians belong in that category too.

    They were all white europeans who thought of everyone else as being savages... they are hardly known as being soft and cuddly.

    I don't doubt the Indians know that, but play their own game- even if it means overpaying; if they don't, they'll get nothing & be on their own with China.

    Funny they can be on their own with China for thousands of years and only now need to be Americas bitch because only America can save them.... Pathetic.

    Like the EU with America saving them from Russia.... bunch of pussies.

    .- I didn't say it'll absolutely be so, but it could.

    They could agree to build factories to make F-22s, but it is not very likely either.

    -Iraq, Iran, Egypt, Indonesia & many other nations have similar types of aircraft imported from several different makers. We don't live in a perfect world.

    India already has more variety than most and further adding new types... especially very expensive and very specialised ones is not a very sensible idea... especially if China decides on a FUCK YOU solution... like perhaps handing Russia 15 billion dollars to buy 100 Su-57s in navalised form to put on their aircraft carriers.... how will F-18s fare against those?

    -their past/current/future missions r the same/similar.

    The American ones cost America 150 million an aircraft so Indian airframes will be double that or worse, and the weapons will be rather more expensive... not to mention America will demand they hand over Brahmos missiles to integrate them which immediately hands them that technology for free... no... worse than free... they will charge for the integration.

    .- we covered the influence buying issue before; their MiG-29 &/ Su-30 pilots can be trained to operate them in a few months, if not weeks.

    They could buy Iphones instead... Turkey bought all sorts of American shit and so did Egypt but when push came to shove they let them down horribly.

    Getting a rich American on board by offering cheap labour and not needing to pay tax would get India vastly more influence in the US than buying their old shit.

    Having Gates or Bezos on your side would mean something... owning F-16s meant nothing in Venezuela and Pakistan.... they have even turned on Saudi Arabia and there is no way for India to buy that level of so called influence...

    - if there's a will & need, there's a way.

    It is way too heavy and not salt protected...

    -not different from Su-30/35 derived from the Su-27 or Tu-22M3/160M derived from Tu-22M/160 or IL-476 derived from the IL-76.

    But India bought the Su-30 and Il-76 when they were still hot... sticking with them is honourable... dropping them for the promise that this old hag looks good in inches of makeup, but her dad owns a brewery is stupid when you find out he doesn't really like you and no free drinks for you buddy... full price for everything and it is a high class establishment and the drinks are actually very expensive.

    -no, I do want them to make & keep peace with PRC,

    And the best way for India to do that is step out of BRICS and into an unholy alliance of killers led by the US who want to break China.

    but again, we don't live in a perfect world where humanism & philanthropy rules. Otherwise, the proverbial free cheese wouldn't be only in a mousetrap, & there would be no wars.

    Considering it thinks it is the leading democracy on the planet the US sure does a lot to make the world a much worse place.

    Use India to hurt Russia (by demanding they stop buying Russian stuff) and to start a war with China (presumably to stunt the growth of both countries and create opportunities to make money in the wreckage of both countries...

    But treachery is practiced by the Chinese too.

    You should like them... they clearly collaborated with the democrats and got Trump kicked out of office illegally.

    The US pilots trained against the former E. German AF MiG-29s for a reason.

    And what they learned was never get into a dogfight with a modern Soviet or Russian fighter with a helmet mounted sight and R-73 AAM.

    For third world countries with faulty not properly serviced MiG-29s it makes little difference, but for a modern air force like Russia or Egypt they know their jammer pods will defeat the AMRAAMs the western forces will try to attack you with so close in and kick their arses...

    In other news, riding on Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s “Make in India” wave, France’s Dassault Aviation has shown its eagerness to make Rafale fighter jets in India , provided the volume is high enough.
    The Diplomatic Advisor to the French President, Emmanuel Bonne, who is in India, has come with an offer from the French government to make at least 100 Rafale fighters in India, ThePrint reported.
    If they produce them there, why not make a few dozen for the INAF?

    That is for the Indian Air Force... they would pay a lot more for naval versions because they would need to pay for the Catapult technology... I believe it was American wasn't it... which likely means to get it India will probably need permission from the US who will be wanting to sell Hornets instead... that should go well.

    France has realised if they keep charging 233 million per Rafale to India they will likely not buy any more.

    Of course setting up factories is not cheap so 233 million per Rafale might turn out to be a bargain when you work out the costs involved of making 100...

    They could probably set up production and make Su-57s for less.

    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion Mon Feb 08, 2021 8:39 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    -their combined naval forces will match or exceed the IN+other non-regional navies that will deploy there.
    Does that mean they get a cookie?-they'll get a piece of the American pie in the sense that PRC will be checkmated in IO & her superior position on land will be somewhat negated by that factor.

    -true, unless the straits r blocked.
    Blocked with what? Chinese military ships can go the other way around the world to get to the Indian ocean they will not need to hurry to get there... they can sail between New Zealand and Australia if they want and there is no navy on the planet that could stop them, and easily reach Indian Ocean areas...-only in peacetime. The Tasman Sea isn't much wider than the SC Sea, & it'll take a few weeks to go around NZ or S. America. There, they'll face the RN operating out of the Falklands & S. Georgia. So, until Burma, Indonesia & Australia r occupied, China won't control the IO.

    India with 5 ex-USN CVNs... how are they going to cope with Yakhont which China has in service and production?- perhaps with lasers?
    -even if so, ex-US CVNs will do.
    India would be even less able to afford an ex-US CVN of any type let alone one flight of aircraft to operate from them.-they could stop wasting $bs on other things, if need be.

    Over the years, the American taxpayers will save $Bs on their operation, deactivation, storing/maintaining, towing & scrapping; each will be worth 3 CVNs based in the States, since they'll be parts of a new "US deputy" toolbox.
    ..Obvious good points for the US, but how is dumping expensive crap of a type they have no experience with,..-ship's & aircrews can be trained ahead of time just like they were in Russia to operate the ex-Gorshkov TAKR. If the PLAN sailors & pilots could learn to handle the CV-16 with no outside help, the IN sailors & pilots can learn to operate American CV/Ns, & they'll be helped.

    -if they were, the Israelis, Arabs & W. Europeans & Taiwan would stick with only French planes instead.
    Bitches take what they are given and do as they are told.-not all of them: the Danes used J-35s.

    I don't doubt the Indians know that, but play their own game- even if it means overpaying; if they don't, they'll get nothing & be on their own with China.
    Funny they can be on their own with China for thousands of years and only now need to be Americas bitch because only America can save them...- no, they were separated by Tibet & had no direct contacts, except during the Ming era sea voyages & via a few Buddhist monks, until the 19th century via the British.

    -no, I do want them to make war & keep peace with PRC,
    And the best way for India to do that is step out of BRICS and into an unholy alliance of killers led by the US who want to break China.-India will stay in BRICS just like Turkey is staying in NATO. That chair may be useful to keep & sometimes sit on.

    but again, we don't live in a perfect world where humanism & philanthropy rules. Otherwise, the proverbial free cheese wouldn't be only in a mousetrap, & there would be no wars.
    Considering it thinks it is the leading democracy on the planet the US sure does a lot to make the world a much worse place.
    Use India to hurt Russia (by demanding they stop buying Russian stuff) and to start a war with China (presumably to stunt the growth of both countries and create opportunities to make money in the wreckage of both countries...- I doubt they want an all-out war with China, just help India contain her & keep the conflict local.

    But treachery is practiced by the Chinese too.
    You should like them... they clearly collaborated with the democrats and got Trump kicked out of office illegally.-the electoral vote system is out of date, but regardless, I didn't vote for him (as most of Arizona, a former Republican stronghold!) & I don't need to hear to some white pro-Trump guys rants like those in our far-right Aristide posts. Now it's between them, the cops & the FBI.

    That is for the Indian Air Force... they would pay a lot more for naval versions because they would need to pay for the Catapult technology...
    they'll save on commonality between their AF & naval aircraft, so it may be well worth it.
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Tue Feb 09, 2021 1:53 am

    -they'll get a piece of the American pie in the sense that PRC will be checkmated in IO & her superior position on land will be somewhat negated by that factor.

    What are you talking about? The PRC is building enormous numbers of aircraft carriers and the ships to go with them... even if the US sold to India three CVNs along with the aircraft and the cruisers needed to protect them we are talking about trillions of dollars to buy and to operate... but lets pretend it happens anyway... India with its three CVNs with Hornets and F-35s and two US CVNs there to support plus a Japanese frigate and an Australian frigate... how is all that going to "check mate" China?

    Having all those ships just creates a target rich environment for a single Chinese SSGN with Yakhonts or something that is not 25 years old... something developed more recently.

    One chinese sub will be dead you say... not if it has ten Chinese aircraft carriers and 50 cruisers operating with it.

    The basic fact is that the US is not going to give India anything for free and China has more money to spend on its navy than the US does at the moment.

    If India wants to start a dick measuring contest with China, they can be silly enough to play... mainly because they will win... but I think they are actually smarter than that and realise playing that game means both China and India lose and America wins.

    China could simply say to Russia... we want to join the Su-57 programme and we are going to pay you 100 billion dollars to buy the technologies fairly and enter into agreements to produce our own versions... and India can't join till they cut ties with the US.

    Also our silk road initiative linking Asia to Europe in trade routes will all now bypass India so they can't be part of it till they end their ties with the US.

    That would cost India billions of dollars in having to buy a lot of shit they actually don't need against a country that does not want to be an enemy, but it will also cost them a chance of being a real part of BRICS where they were an equal partner and instead will be another American vassal and bitch basically.

    -only in peacetime

    In war time China has IRBMs with nukes... WTF do you think an Indian carrier can do in such a situation?

    The Tasman Sea isn't much wider than the SC Sea, & it'll take a few weeks to go around NZ or S. America.

    It could be as narrow as the Clutha river... Australia and New Zealand don't have enough ships or the legal right to block any shipping traffic... civilian or military from sailing through there.

    And what is India and the US and Australia supposed to do in that narrow straight... how are they going to block that piece of water to Chinese aircraft carriers or civilian commercial traffic?

    It is just nonsense.

    More importantly what difference would an extra Indian carrier and Hornets make... they couldn't block that straight with or without them.

    There, they'll face the RN operating out of the Falklands & S. Georgia. So, until Burma, Indonesia & Australia r occupied, China won't control the IO.

    Why do you think China wants to control the Indian ocean? The RN couldn't do shit operating out of the Falklands... the Chinese could send four aircraft carriers... if Britain does the only thing it could possibly do to stop them and sink one with a submarine British territory and ships at sea become fair game for China... how many will they sink?

    Remember it is not illegal for Chinese ships to sail in international waters so Britain sinking a Chinese carrier is a serious act of war... anyone with a british passport in Hong Kong would immediately be sent to internment camps and shit would get bad.

    But the Brits aren't that stupid anyway... that British general called Jackson who refused the US order to fight the Russians in the Balkans would be looking at his orders to launch a live torpedo at a chinese aircraft carrier operating in international waters and say fuck you... I am not going to start WWIII because you are Americas cock sucking bitch.

    Why would Britain care about Chinese ships in the Indian ocean?

    - perhaps with lasers?

    So an existing problem is solved with something that does not exist... or maybe they could just get hit by the missiles and sink.

    -they could stop wasting $bs on other things, if need be.

    Like food and healthcare and education for their people... silly of them wasting money on such non essentials.

    America doesn't look after its people with healthcare why should anyone else.

    .-ship's & aircrews can be trained ahead of time just like they were in Russia to operate the ex-Gorshkov TAKR. If the PLAN sailors & pilots could learn to handle the CV-16 with no outside help, the IN sailors & pilots can learn to operate American CV/Ns, & they'll be helped.

    I am sure they could be trained to use them, but the billions of dollars wasted on those pieces of shit to create an unnecessary confrontation to break both India and China to suit US ambitions is not in Indias best interests.

    Now Trump is gone I would expect the anti chinese alliance BS will be scaled back a lot...

    But the US will still demand India stops buying Russian equipment... maybe they could threaten to provide weapons and equipment to Pakistan if they don't...

    -India will stay in BRICS just like Turkey is staying in NATO. That chair may be useful to keep & sometimes sit on.

    Being Americas bitch might lead to them being sidelined in BRICS and perhaps replaced with countries who are interested in developing and growth economically and culturally... instead of just becoming a carbon copy of America.

    - I doubt they want an all-out war with China, just help India contain her & keep the conflict local.

    Expensive confrontations are much more profitable... Arm them up with crap weapons and promote infighting and hostility.... it worked with the EU and Russia, so they are doing it with India and China...

    I don't need to hear to some white pro-Trump guys rants like those in our far-right Aristide posts.

    Yeah, of course... hide the username and my posts are almost identical to Aristides posts on race...


    they'll save on commonality between their AF & naval aircraft, so it may be well worth it.

    What a stupid thing to say.

    The Indian AF and Indian Navy current use common aircraft already... the MiG-29 family.

    You think it would be worth it to replace AF and Navy planes they currently operate with ancient worn out American pieces of crap that will be more expensive than Rafales... you think buying much more expensive aircraft will be worth it because buying even more to also replace AF planes with massively increase the costs for their navy and their air force... not to mention that the Hornets wont operate from existing Indian carriers anyway... so I guess they will be helicopter carriers.... wow and they didn't have to spend 15 billion to get them like the US did with their Ford class helicopter carriers...

    Commonality only makes sense to reduce costs... right now getting new build MiG-35s for their Navy and Air Force... talk of a new contract for making 100 plus aircraft would make sense, but if they choose Hornets or Rafales that will be 30-40 billion dollars.

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