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    Sweden and Finland possible option to join NATO

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    walle83


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    Post  walle83 Thu Jun 23, 2022 9:20 pm

    Arrow wrote:

    NATO is not able to win the arms race with Russia.

    Really? Why not?
    lancelot
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    Post  lancelot Thu Jun 23, 2022 11:16 pm

    walle83 wrote:
    Arrow wrote:NATO is not able to win the arms race with Russia.
    Really? Why not?
    It is not possible in one decade. Maybe two. And that is assuming Russia would remain stationary.

    Let us say the US over the next decade develops new tanks, their own hypersonics, and increases deployments of ABM.

    So how are you going to intercept Poseidon? Or Burevestnik once it comes out?

    The US might try for a paradigm shift and move the conflict to space or use AI to develop some new kind of weapon.
    Problem is their opponents have considerable capabilities in those fields as well.

    The US MIC spent two decades in the "revolution of military affairs" where the US was going to only fight goat herders and Iranian motor boats in the Persian Gulf. And it shows in their weapons development.
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Fri Jun 24, 2022 11:17 am

    I feel this is just going in circles.
    Russias military budget is what ~65 billion us dollars give or take. What could Nato collected defence budget be, ~1 trillion?

    It would be more than a trillion... the US budget is probably going to be 800 billion on its own soon enough, but that is more an indication of corruption and getting value for money.

    Russia wouldnt stand a chance against Nato unless they want to start launching nukes.

    That is what HATO says, but the Ukraine had a large standing army with 2000 tanks that are largely neutered in three months by an expeditionary force from Russia.

    It seems air power based attack and also defence is not going to cut it...

    And like I stated before, no one cares about the Russian nukes in Sweden or Finland because they know they will never be used.

    But when every European country is part of HATO and can trigger article 5 to get all the other sides to help them then nukes actually become necessary for Russia rather than a last resort tool.

    But that is OK... it is not like Finland or Sweden will get a choice in this... your media say you support it, but your media say Kiev is winning.

    It doesn't matter what you think or what I think... you are getting walls and US bases and your "defence" budget needs to dramatically increase... how long before HATO membership requires 5 or 10 percent GPD to fix a long neglected military... who has wasted money in Afghanistan and other places...

    Really? Why not?

    Because the west is broken... defence budgets do nothing for defence... they make the very rich slightly richer... pumping more money is always the solution... you don't treat a thief by throwing more money than they can spend at them... well it hasn't worked so far...

    The US MIC spent two decades in the "revolution of military affairs" where the US was going to only fight goat herders and Iranian motor boats in the Persian Gulf. And it shows in their weapons development.

    They went from hiding from the air defence with stealth to overwhelming the defence with swarms and Russia is in the middle of upgrading their air defences to deal with enormous numbers.... jammer, lasers, and small independently guided missiles, airburst shells of various calibres...

    By the time the west has deployed their swarms the Russians will have an ability to deal with them and while the odd drone or cruise missile might sneak through Russian air defence anything and everything seems to get through HATO air defence... it is non existent...

    But they have huge budgets and need stuff to spend money on so they should be fine.

    Both sides know nuclear war is suicide for both parties but how far will each side go with mantra... with ideology.

    A big part of UK mantra is that Russia started invading the Ukraine in 2014 and the so called Ukrainian separatists are actually Russians occupying Ukrainian land, which is why they have not recognised the LNR or DNR.

    There are two UK citizens (which is evidence enough they are mercs because otherwise why would the UK care) that are going to be executed... they sent a message to Moscow who said it was not their decision... talk to the DNR... and it seems they haven't.

    Will they let their men die to keep up the pretense.

    If they let these two die then the next court cases with higher ranked UK special forces members will be harder to bend for... how can they look in the faces of those familes and say they can't talk to the DNR if they then talk to the DNR when it is an officer or someone of higher rank on death row...

    Should be very interesting.
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    walle83


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    Post  walle83 Tue Jun 28, 2022 10:32 pm

    Turkey and Sweden has come to an agreement and Turkey will now drop thier veto and vote yes to Finland and Sweden to join Nato.
    This should mean that nothing can stop both nations to become full members.

    https://www.cnbc.com/2022/06/28/nato-reaches-deal-with-turkey-to-admit-sweden-and-finland-secretary-general-says.html

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    walle83


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    Post  walle83 Tue Jun 28, 2022 11:19 pm

    lancelot wrote:
    walle83 wrote:
    Arrow wrote:NATO is not able to win the arms race with Russia.
    Really? Why not?
    It is not possible in one decade. Maybe two. And that is assuming Russia would remain stationary.

    Let us say the US over the next decade develops new tanks, their own hypersonics, and increases deployments of ABM.

    So how are you going to intercept Poseidon? Or Burevestnik once it comes out?

    The US might try for a paradigm shift and move the conflict to space or use AI to develop some new kind of weapon.
    Problem is their opponents have considerable capabilities in those fields as well.

    The US MIC spent two decades in the "revolution of military affairs" where the US was going to only fight goat herders and Iranian motor boats in the Persian Gulf. And it shows in their weapons development.

    You are talking about very few systems. That will hardly win any arm race for Russia.
    Us alone has enough submarines today to sink every Russian naval vessel if they wanted to. A few missile systems wont make much difference.
    As for tanks an Abrams or Challenger could take on any Russian tank today or in the near future and most likely win.

    Also i think you forgetting that Russia had 10-15 years with stagnation in its military in the 90s and 00s.
    TMA1
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    Post  TMA1 Tue Jun 28, 2022 11:32 pm

    This war has increased the hubris and delusion of us westerners. Not good. Our kind of pride can only be humbled by a great fall. Walle83 you sound like the stereotypical fanboy on a yt comment section. Yikes.

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    lyle6
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    Post  lyle6 Wed Jun 29, 2022 12:04 am

    The Finnish and Swedish army combined are a fraction of the strength of the Ukrainian army that's currently being demolished.
    They have zero prospects of expanding their militaries either, not with their economies imploding.
    My hohol in bandera you're going to die.

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    lancelot
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    Post  lancelot Wed Jun 29, 2022 5:15 am

    walle83 wrote:You are talking about very few systems. That will hardly win any arm race for Russia.
    Us alone has enough submarines today to sink every Russian naval vessel if they wanted to. A few missile systems wont make much difference.
    As for tanks an Abrams or Challenger could take on any Russian tank today or in the near future and most likely win.

    Also i think you forgetting that Russia had 10-15 years with stagnation in its military in the 90s and 00s.
    The US had basically 30 years of stagnation by focusing on all the wrong types of weapons. Sure, they have the Virginia class submarines, they had to get something right. But for submarines it depends on what you are talking about. Russia has diesel subs for coastal protection. So just counting nuclear attack submarines, as if Russia had to project power globally, is kind of overblown.

    As for tanks that "near future" would have to include the T-14 which is currently in production and will likely be hitting combat units this year. So no the US is quite far behind and only started their own program like 3 years ago, while still not having decided on a design yet.
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Wed Jun 29, 2022 8:03 am

    Also i think you forgetting that Russia had 10-15 years with stagnation in its military in the 90s and 00s.

    What is more important is that the US military acquisition system is broken... it does not arm the US for war, it fleeces the US taxpayer of money... and it is very very efficient at that.

    Russia has a real defensive force, while HATO is about invasions... there will be plenty of conflicts the US and the west will want to send troops to from now on... mostly wars regarding resources like lithium or other materials they will be too proud to buy from Russia now.

    The Finnish and Swedish army combined are a fraction of the strength of the Ukrainian army that's currently being demolished.
    They have zero prospects of expanding their militaries either, not with their economies imploding.
    My hohol in bandera you're going to die.

    But Finland now has a border with the enemy... they will have to build a wall and set up security on its full 1,400km or so... that is not going to be cheap, and of course they will need to finish theri conversion to HATO standard weapons and equipment too... they were already doing that so that wont be too bad... except how long before the US says they are not safe without F-35s... they might gift them 10 and then make them buy another 40 odd to make them a viable force...

    90K pound per hour operational costs according to the Brits...

    And after all that money is spent and the borders are closed how much trade will there be from the US and the rest of the EU... more than Ukraine got I hope.

    As for tanks that "near future" would have to include the T-14 which is currently in production and will likely be hitting combat units this year. So no the US is quite far behind and only started their own program like 3 years ago, while still not having decided on a design yet.

    They have been talking about super soldier systems and new vehicles for ever... not to mention the M4 replacement debacle... despite the money being spent you would think everything would be great... but it isn't... but pro west fanboys think things are at Stargate level by now... they are just keeping it secret.

    Will be interesting to see what the US and rest of HATO offered Turkey... EU membership? Do they even want that any more?

    Perhaps the US is going to drop all support for the Kurds in Syria... or maybe Turkey is back in the F-35 programme... I would expect Boeing would be pushing for the latter because 100 planes will bring in enormous amounts of money for operational costs alone over the next few years...

    Will be amusing to see what the west folded on.

    Hasn't done Finland or Sweden any favours though but I am pleased... as I have been mentioning for quite some time... the west is toxic and the more it rejects Russia the better it is for Russias future...

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    Post  GarryB Wed Jun 29, 2022 8:11 am

    BTW looked at the RT version of the news article which is here:

    https://www.rt.com/news/558027-turkey-finland-sweden-nato-deal/

    And it is completely different from that western news piece of shit article quoted that was vague about the contents of the deal...

    Looks like Finland and Sweden folded on their friends an stitched up the Kurds.

    Makes sense of course.... a neutral country might sympathise with the Kurds and other groups, but as part of HATO the only terrorists you are allowed to support are the ones the US created or supports.

    Seems they got with the programme real fast... ethics and morals out the window already...
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    Post  Werewolf Wed Jun 29, 2022 8:54 am

    TMA1 wrote:This war has increased the hubris and delusion of us westerners. Not good.  Our kind of pride can only be humbled by a great fall. Walle83 you sound like the stereotypical fanboy on a yt comment section. Yikes.

    I think it is actually a good thing when westerners get intoxicated on their own cool-aid.
    To much western values and a ever growing god complex will work wonders on their capability to fight and moral once met with cold blooded reality.

    For many years I have followed of an ridiculously small minority of German patriots trying to regain some sense into the public mind of what is going on and the West is only driving Europe and Germany into a war with Russia, but all these German patriots have given up. Some left the country and some just disappeared and I wouldn't be surprised if it was involuntary. They have been either jailed or censored by MSM, phoney lawsuits just like against Assange.

    Out of interest I am reading sometimes some German Military Forums and just the way Germans speak, think and draw conclusions is the very reason they live in a parallel universe just like the Ukropians.

    The Copium within Germans is overdosed and remind me of RTN, but hell, you won't believe it even RTN seems to have a few more braincells.

    The West is as stupid as decadent. It will fall and de-industrialze itself.

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    walle83


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    Post  walle83 Wed Jun 29, 2022 10:03 am

    lyle6 wrote:The Finnish and Swedish army combined are a fraction of the strength of the Ukrainian army that's currently being demolished.
    They have zero prospects of expanding their militaries either, not with their economies imploding.
    My hohol in bandera you're going to die.

    Eh have you seen the finish army?
    And Sweden, yes a smaller army but a better air force and a with an industry that can supply many Nato countries with modern high tech arms.
    And I dont know what you are talking about when it comes to economies. Sweden has just announced that it will raise it defence budget with almost 1% of BNP in a few years.
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    Post  Werewolf Wed Jun 29, 2022 11:07 am

    walle83 wrote:
    lyle6 wrote:The Finnish and Swedish army combined are a fraction of the strength of the Ukrainian army that's currently being demolished.
    They have zero prospects of expanding their militaries either, not with their economies imploding.
    My hohol in bandera you're going to die.

    Eh have you seen the finish army?
    And Sweden, yes a smaller army but a better air force and a with an industry that can supply many Nato countries with modern high tech arms.
    And I dont know what you are talking about when it comes to economies. Sweden has just announced that it will raise it defence budget with almost 1% of BNP in a few years.

    Sweden and Finnland are below Germany's military capabilities which has almost twice the size of Swedens Army. What are you talking about?

    Sweden is a Chihuaha. Sweden is Latvia with a few guns, tanks and planes.

    Germany in its current shameful state could crush Sweden and Germany is a midget and has no weight in military matters whatsoever.

    You have reduced your rhetoric down to a level of Youtube Comment Section.

    If you make claims they should be at least from this universe and not some alternative multiverse of copeness.

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    lancelot
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    Post  lancelot Thu Jun 30, 2022 5:07 am

    walle83 wrote:Eh have you seen the finish army?
    And Sweden, yes a smaller army but a better air force and a with an industry that can supply many Nato countries with modern high tech arms.
    And I dont know what you are talking about when it comes to economies. Sweden has just announced that it will raise it defence budget with almost 1% of BNP in a few years.
    I do not know in which decade you are. But the modern Swedish and Finnish army are not the same thing they were in the 1980s.

    Sweden has 71 single engine aircraft which are not even medium weight. Each one uses a single engine of the dual-engine F/A-18 which was the competitor of the single engine F-16. It is basically like a single engine of a MiG-29. This means the amount of payload it can carry is limited. Before the war started, Ukraine had 51 MiG-29, 12 Su-24, 17 Su-25, and 32 Su-27 dual engine heavy fighters. Ukraine's air force was way larger than the one Sweden has. Since then Ukraine were likely furnished with even more Warsaw Pact MiG-29 and Su-25. Some might even have had Israeli electronics upgrades. And these are all late Cold War era types. Gripen is a post Cold War era type which has more advanced electronics as a result, but the aircraft as a combination of airframe and engine itself is way less powerful, the radar tech is more advanced but the radar is smaller than the one in a Cold War Su-27 so the overall air to air performance is worse. And the weapons package, well, Ukraine could manufacture the R-27 air to air missile at Artem. Which air to air missile does your precious Swedish military industry manufacture today? I mean as a whole package. Ukraine had integrated production for the thing. They made every single component. Sweden is supposedly part of MBDA but I don't even know if they even make a single bolt or nut for the Meteor. AFAIK the engine of the Meteor is German, and the sensor and electronics aren't Swedish either. So other than Sweden having programmed basically what amounts to a hardware driver for the Gripen so it can launch the Meteor, and buying the thing, I do not know what they are supposed to have done.

    Sweden is decent at airframe design, making control avionics for the aircraft, and that is it. Everything else is basically imported. So they basically design the airframe, write the software packages, buy everything else off the shelf, integrate and test it.
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Thu Jun 30, 2022 6:29 am

    Reading interesting news reports that contrast starkly with the reports presented here.

    Going by western newspapers the Turkish veto is gone and Sweden and Finland are a slam dunk to join HATO, but on RT it is rather more detailed and complicated than that.

    Reports by Turkey sending papers for 33 people in the two countries to be extradicted to Turkey to face trial, with the Turks saying how good it is to get cooperation in work against terrorists, while the Swedish and Fin sides seem to deny any such thing would take place.... I am pretty sure what has happened is that the US and UK and EU members of HATO have run between the two groups and used ambiguous language and lawyer speak to get an apparent agreement that really does not exist... which would be very disappointing... both these scandinavian countries are anti Russian... there is no point in hiding it now... let them join the hostile nations list and be done with their stupid games.

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    lancelot
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    Post  lancelot Thu Jun 30, 2022 6:39 am

    Did you not read the document they signed GarryB?

    TRILATERAL MEMORANDUM
    1. Today the representatives of Turkiye, Finland and Sweden, under the
    auspices of the NATO Secretary General, have agreed the following.

    2. NATO is an Alliance based on the principles of collective defence and the
    indivisibility of security, as well as on common values. Turkiye, Finland and
    Sweden affirm their adherence to the principles and values enshrined in the
    Washington Treaty.

    3. One of the key elements of the Alliance is unwavering solidarity and
    cooperation in the fight against terrorism, in all its forms and manifestations,
    which constitutes a direct threat to the national security of Allies as well as
    to international peace and security.

    4. As prospective NATO Allies, Finland and Sweden extend their full support
    to Turkiye against threats to its national security. To that effect, Finland and
    Sweden will not provide support to YPG/PYD, and the organisation
    described as FETO in Turkiye.
    Turkiye also extends its full support to
    Finland and Sweden against threats to their national security. Finland and
    Sweden reject and condemn terrorism in all its forms and manifestations, in
    the strongest terms. Finland and Sweden unambiguously condemn all
    terrorist organisations perpetrating attacks against Turkiye, and express
    their deepest solidarity with Turkiye and the families of the victims.

    5. Finland and Sweden confirm that the PKK is a proscribed terrorist
    organisation. Finland and Sweden commit to prevent activities of the PKK
    and all other terrorist organisations and their extensions, as well as activities
    by individuals in affiliated and inspired groups or networks linked to these
    terrorist organisations. Turkiye, Finland and Sweden have agreed to step up
    cooperation to prevent the activities of these terrorist groups. Finland and
    Sweden reject the goals of these terrorist organisations.


    6. Further to this, Finland refers to several recent amendments of its Criminal
    Code by which new acts have been enacted as punishable terrorist crimes.

    The latest amendments entered into force on 1 January 2022, by which the
    scope of participation in the activity of a terrorist group has been widened.
    At the same time, public incitement related to terrorist offenses was
    criminalised as a separate offense. Sweden confirms that a new, tougher,
    Terrorist Offenses Act enters into force on 1 July, and that the government
    is preparing further tightening of counter-terrorism legislation.

    7. Turkiye, Finland and Sweden confirm that now there are no national arms
    embargoes in place between them. Sweden is changing its national
    regulatory framework for arms exports in relation to NATO Allies. In future,
    defence exports from Finland and Sweden will be conducted in line with
    Alliance solidarity and in accordance with the letter and spirit of article 3 of
    the Washington Treaty.

    8. Today, Turkiye, Finland and Sweden commit to the following concrete steps:
    • Establish a joint, structured dialogue and cooperation mechanism at
    all levels of government, including between law enforcement and
    intelligence agencies, to enhance cooperation on counter-terrorism
    ,
    organised crime, and other common challenges as they so decide.

    • Finland and Sweden will conduct the fight against terrorism with
    determination, resolve, and in accordance with the provisions of the
    relevant NATO documents and policies, and will take all required
    steps to tighten further domestic legislation to this end.

    Finland and Sweden will address Turkiye's pending deportation or
    extradition requests of terror suspects expeditiously and thoroughly
    ,
    taking into account information, evidence and intelligence provided by
    Turkiye, and establish necessary bilateral legal frameworks to
    facilitate extradition and security cooperation with Turkiye, in
    accordance with the European Convention on Extradition.

    Finland and Sweden will investigate and interdict any financing and
    recruitment activities of the PKK and all other terrorist organisations
    and their extensions
    , as well affiliates or inspired groups or networks
    as outlined in paragraph 5.

    • Turkiye, Finland and Sweden commit to fight disinformation, and
    prevent their domestic laws from being abused for the benefit or
    promotion of terrorist organisations, including through activities that
    incite violence against Turkiye.

    • Finland and Sweden will ensure that their respective national
    regulatory frameworks for arms exports enable new commitments to
    Allies and reflects their status as NATO members.

    • Finland and Sweden commit to support the fullest possible
    involvement of Turkiye and other non-EU Allies in the existing and
    prospective initiatives of the European Union's Common Security and
    Defence Policy, including Turkiye's participation in the PESCO Project
    on Military Mobility.

    9. For the implementation of these steps, Turkiye, Finland and Sweden will
    establish a Permanent Joint Mechanism, with the participation of experts
    from the Ministries of Foreign Affairs , Interior, and Justice, as well as
    Intelligence Services and Security Institutions. The Permanent Joint
    Mechanism will be open for others to join.

    10. Turkiye confirms its long-standing support for NATO's Open Door policy,
    and agrees to support at Jhe 2022 Madrid Summit the invitation of Finland
    and Sweden to become members of NATO.

    His Excellency
    Minister of Foreign Affairs of the Republic of Turkiye

    His Excellency
    Minister for Foreign Affairs of the Republic of Finland

    Her Excellency
    Minister for Foreign Affairs of the Kingdom of Sweden

    Madrid, 28 June 2022

    i.e. the Kurds were thrown under the bus.
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    Post  Kiko Thu Jun 30, 2022 8:49 pm

    The Swedish historical neutrality racket must definitely end once and for all. Save for extremely short periods (namely during PM Olof Palme's government in 1982 -1986) it has never been so!
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    Post  Backman Fri Jul 01, 2022 1:34 am

    walle83 wrote:
    Arrow wrote:

    NATO is not able to win the arms race with Russia.

    Really? Why not?

    Many reasons. Most Nato members are complex dual debtor economies with systemic trade deficits and high govt debt and inflation.

    The Nato countries have lost a lot of military industrial competencies.
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    Post  Backman Fri Jul 01, 2022 1:46 am

    lancelot wrote:
    Finland and Sweden will address Turkiye's pending deportation or
    extradition requests of terror suspects expeditiously and thoroughly
    ,
    taking into account information, evidence and intelligence provided by
    Turkiye, and establish necessary bilateral legal frameworks to
    facilitate extradition and security cooperation with Turkiye, in
    accordance with the European Convention on Extradition.



    Sweden and Finland are in Nato. It is a done deal. (it would have happened even without the war)

    Erdogan got completely duped, the moron. It is highly unlikely that ONE warm body will be heading to Turkey to face charges.

    Now he will kick up a fuss after the fact.

    Maybe he will threaten to leave Nato if Sweden and Finland don't send the bodies. Maybe that's what is at play here. That would be a fun scandal to watch.

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    Post  GarryB Fri Jul 01, 2022 8:14 am

    i.e. the Kurds were thrown under the bus.

    Hahaha... now they just need the US and UK and France and Germany and Canada to sign such an agreement too... but then they would get away with it by calling the White Helmets non terrorists... or the IRA, or the French special forces.

    It is good that they outline specifically the groups involved but common sense dictates those groups will now disband and form new "political" groups with different names not defined in the agreement... the way the political wing of the IRA could negotiate while continuing to bomb and kill people.

    Their ministers of defence have signed this agreement but I rather suspect those people didn't operate in a vaccum in Sweden and Finland and their local supporters are unlikely to be very helpful or approving of the change in stance without discussion or referendum...

    This could be devisive.

    The Swedish historical neutrality racket must definitely end once and for all. Save for extremely short periods (namely during PM Olof Palme's government in 1982 -1986) it has never been so!

    It is only common sense, and I love the irony... a Russian invasion of Ukraine (a war) causes two neutral countries to join a military organisation with quite a few wars and invasions under its belt and stop being neutral... so now I guess they are pro war as long as they start it.

    European morality and ethics in motion.

    The Nato countries have lost a lot of military industrial competencies.

    And the ones that retain such competencies don't sell their skills or products cheaply...

    The Rafale is not a 5th gen fighter but it costs the same as one might cost if they did make one.

    Sweden and Finland are in Nato. It is a done deal. (it would have happened even without the war)

    Erdogan got completely duped, the moron. It is highly unlikely that ONE warm body will be heading to Turkey to face charges.

    Now he will kick up a fuss after the fact.

    Actually I would say the Finnish and Swedish people who supported the Kurds just got screwed because that agreement seems to be fairly comprehensive and cover any potential loopholes they might try to get their cake without having to do any baking so to speak.

    If they try to double cross Turkey after this agreement and the rest of HATO supports their actions I would say Erdogan would have to reconsider Turkeys membership of HATO and maybe another organisation might suit their defence needs and potential for future growth than HATO and the EU does now.

    Maybe he will threaten to leave Nato if Sweden and Finland don't send the bodies. Maybe that's what is at play here. That would be a fun scandal to watch.

    Even with just a skim read of that document if Finland and Sweden drag their heels on handing over the people Turkey ask for and Erdogan would have every reason to say either they go or Turkey does...

    Of course the irony is that US and western special forces are helping the Kurds in Syria to try to defeat Assad so they are already helping Turkeys enemies anyway... Assad is a better neighbour for Turkey than Kurds would be.
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    Post  walle83 Fri Jul 01, 2022 1:00 pm

    lancelot wrote:
    walle83 wrote:Eh have you seen the finish army?
    And Sweden, yes a smaller army but a better air force and a with an industry that can supply many Nato countries with modern high tech arms.
    And I dont know what you are talking about when it comes to economies. Sweden has just announced that it will raise it defence budget with almost 1% of BNP in a few years.
    I do not know in which decade you are. But the modern Swedish and Finnish army are not the same thing they were in the 1980s.

    Sweden has 71 single engine aircraft which are not even medium weight. Each one uses a single engine of the dual-engine F/A-18 which was the competitor of the single engine F-16. It is basically like a single engine of a MiG-29. This means the amount of payload it can carry is limited. Before the war started, Ukraine had 51 MiG-29, 12 Su-24, 17 Su-25, and 32 Su-27 dual engine heavy fighters. Ukraine's air force was way larger than the one Sweden has. Since then Ukraine were likely furnished with even more Warsaw Pact MiG-29 and Su-25. Some might even have had Israeli electronics upgrades. And these are all late Cold War era types. Gripen is a post Cold War era type which has more advanced electronics as a result, but the aircraft as a combination of airframe and engine itself is way less powerful, the radar tech is more advanced but the radar is smaller than the one in a Cold War Su-27 so the overall air to air performance is worse. And the weapons package, well, Ukraine could manufacture the R-27 air to air missile at Artem. Which air to air missile does your precious Swedish military industry manufacture today? I mean as a whole package. Ukraine had integrated production for the thing. They made every single component. Sweden is supposedly part of MBDA but I don't even know if they even make a single bolt or nut for the Meteor. AFAIK the engine of the Meteor is German, and the sensor and electronics aren't Swedish either. So other than Sweden having programmed basically what amounts to a hardware driver for the Gripen so it can launch the Meteor, and buying the thing, I do not know what they are supposed to have done.

    Sweden is decent at airframe design, making control avionics for the aircraft, and that is it. Everything else is basically imported. So they basically design the airframe, write the software packages, buy everything else off the shelf, integrate and test it.

    Ukraine airforce was and is leftovers from the Soviet union, they have no ability or budget to build new fighters. Next fighters for them will be Nato planes, possibly even the Gripen.

    As for Sweden you have far more defence industry then just Saab Gripen. Bofors, Saab underwatersystem, Ericsson, Hägglunds ecs ecs.
    They produce advanced anti armor weapons, the CV90, stealth corvetts, the Erieye radar system, AiP submarines, Archer artillery system, anti-ship missiles, torpedos, track vehicles, short range anti air systems, the list goes on and on.
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    Post  walle83 Fri Jul 01, 2022 1:12 pm

    Werewolf wrote:
    walle83 wrote:
    lyle6 wrote:The Finnish and Swedish army combined are a fraction of the strength of the Ukrainian army that's currently being demolished.
    They have zero prospects of expanding their militaries either, not with their economies imploding.
    My hohol in bandera you're going to die.

    Eh have you seen the finish army?
    And Sweden, yes a smaller army but a better air force and a with an industry that can supply many Nato countries with modern high tech arms.
    And I dont know what you are talking about when it comes to economies. Sweden has just announced that it will raise it defence budget with almost 1% of BNP in a few years.

    Sweden and Finnland are below Germany's military capabilities which has almost twice the size of Swedens Army. What are you talking about?

    Sweden is a Chihuaha. Sweden is Latvia with a few guns, tanks and planes.

    Germany in its current shameful state could crush Sweden and Germany is a midget and has no weight in military matters whatsoever.

    You have reduced your rhetoric down to a level of Youtube Comment Section.

    If you make claims they should be at least from this universe and not some alternative multiverse of copeness.

    When did I ever say that Sweden has a larger military then Germany?
    I said that Sweden has a defence industry that can be very usefull for other Nato members. Germany for ex is buying several systems from Sweden.
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    Post  Hole Yesterday at 12:24 pm

    Sweden and Finland possible option to join NATO - Page 12 Fwn6mw10
    Embarassed

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