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    Sweden and Finland possible option to join NATO

    GarryB
    GarryB


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    Post  GarryB Tue Jan 18, 2022 6:59 pm


    Tell that to the baltics. Saw a interview with primeminster of Lettia I think it was the other day. She wasnt worried about any Russian attack at all. Becaouse she knew that a attack on them would be an attack on the Nato as a whole.

    So why isn't HATO fighting the Syrian Kurds... in fact why is the US helping the Syrian Kurds?

    Without HATO membership Sweden is not a threat and not a target... join HATO and you become part of the enemy gang trying to attack Russia so of course you will be targeted, and all the new members HATO takes on further increase the chance of conflict with Russia...

    But thinking your are safer is more important to you than actually being safer... if Russia is attacking Sweden whether Sweden is part of HATO or not and that probably means WWIII is not far away.

    They say HATO is a defensive organisation... you know... like when Serbia attacked HATO and Afghanistan and Iraq and I guess Syria and Libya... man Europe has been attacked so many times recently... it is becoming hard to believe...

    But lets say they are defensive... they are hardly going to do nothing at all of Russia attacks Sweden.

    Funny you mention the Baltic. It was none other than the Estonian president Kersti Kaljulaid who called a meeting with Putin and invited Putin to Estonia after it dawned on her that they were being used by DC as a pawn against Russia. Not sure if she's around anymore. Probably not. Because of this

    Well that is a factor... politically speaking saying no to HATO membership at such an inconvenient time might be catastrophic to a political career...
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    walle83


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    Post  walle83 Wed Jan 19, 2022 7:24 am

    Backman wrote:
    walle83 wrote:
    Backman wrote:
    Battalion0415 wrote:Speciality Swedes need NATO when they have smaller troops near Russia.

    It will cost 3 billion euro to join NATO but it's worth every money Sweden give to NATO.

    Russia can attack's Sweden about 10 year in future and Sweden need help from outside country.

    All help Sweden need to fight back enemies.

    The surest way to decrease your security is to become a pawn on Russia's periphery controlled by Washington DC.

    Why wouldn't you want to stand on your own feet and deal with Russia yourself ? Like you are doing now.

    Tell that to the baltics. Saw a interview with primeminster of Lettia I think it was the other day. She wasnt worried about any Russian attack at all. Becaouse she knew that a attack on them would be an attack on the Nato as a whole.

    Funny you mention the Baltic. It was none other than the Estonian president   Kersti Kaljulaid  who called a meeting with Putin and invited Putin to Estonia after it dawned on her that they were being used by DC as a pawn against Russia. Not sure if she's around anymore. Probably not. Because of this

    https://www.svt.se/nyheter/utrikes/estlands-premiarminister-om-ryska-hotet-storsta-sakerhetskrisen-efter-kalla-kriget

    I gess not
    flamming_python
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    Post  flamming_python Wed Jan 19, 2022 10:48 am

    walle83 wrote:
    flamming_python wrote:
    walle83 wrote:
    GarryB wrote:Joining HATO would not make them any safer and in fact would greatly worsen relations with Russia... not that they would be too upset about that but especially for Finland there is a bit of trade going over that border that would be effected.

    To be clear right now obviously Russia trades with Germany and other HATO members, but they have stated publicly they are not happy with HATO expansion and they want it to stop.

    They have not threatened to attack or invade anyone if their interests are ignored... I am pretty sure Finland and Sweden joining HATO would not start WWIII, but Russia would obviously change its relations with all HATO members because they would all have to approve this to allow it to happen, which means they all acted against Russian interests.

    Obviously they can do what they like and Russia can't stop them, but there are plenty of things Russia can do, like recognising HATO as a threat to Russian national security and dramatically restrict or even cut ties with its members would be an obvious first step... if HATO wants to make Russia an enemy then they are unlikely to find growth and development and fair trade in that direction, so funding for the navy needs to massively increase and Russia needs to start looking to the rest of the world for trade and development and growth... start working on ties with BRICS countries... maybe add a few more countries to the group... boost trade and cooperation amongst the countries involved, and work towards helping them off their dependence on the west and the international organisations the west controls and misuses and abuses.

    It does not surprise me that Sweden and Finland don't want to be cannon fodder for stupid American games.

    Obviously they would have joined years ago if they didn't care about their own people and just wanted to please other european powers and the US.

    Joining Nato has two sides, yes Russia would probably threaten us more and testing our defences. But at the same time it would take alot more before they would attack for real. Ukraine, Georgia, Kasaksthan is one thing. Doing the same to a full Nato country is something else.

    As a Swed myself i can say that 75% of the population dont give the **** about the Russians. Joining Nato I would say is about 50/50. As long as the Socialdemocrats has the power it will not happen however. In 5-10 years who knows.

    It will happen I suspect if Washington makes a few phone calls.

    Doubt that extremly much, I dont think the Swedish government would dare before having a puplic election. And as it stand today its not a sure thing.

    It doesn't matter how it happens or through which democratic formality, political technology or how its justified internally. These sort of decisions are not left up to the commoners.

    Sweden's and Finland's positions are clear - they're de-facto members of NATO. This is exactly the message the Russian Ministry of Defense will hear and the Swedish and Finnish leaderships are perfectly aware of that.

    If they were neutral countries, with the current crisis, they would have said so by now - we're neutral countries and take no part in the Russian-NATO escalation, we demand everyone respect our neutrality and do not station any forces in proximity, violate our air-space or territorial waters. Any violation will be immediately challenged.

    Of course no-one believes a war between Russia and NATO is about to take place hence amateur hour. It all doesn't really help though.

    There is such a thing as people power but it doesn't happen all that often. Rest of the time the elites have control of the situation.

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    flamming_python
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    Post  flamming_python Wed Jan 19, 2022 11:40 am

    Those NATO reconnaissance flights seem to have full reign within Swedish airspace.

    Sweden and Finland possible option to join NATO - Page 6 FJaSvtmXMAwbtOn?format=jpg&name=large

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    miketheterrible
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    Post  miketheterrible Wed Jan 19, 2022 1:12 pm

    Wouldn't make much of a difference as ALMOS said. Finland and Sweden are small and thus iskanders can easily destroy their capabilities. These nations are just setting themselves up to be countered economically and politically. Mind you, Sweden may not care but Finland will.
    flamming_python
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    Post  flamming_python Wed Jan 19, 2022 3:28 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:Wouldn't make much of a difference as ALMOS said.  Finland and Sweden are small and thus iskanders can easily destroy their capabilities.  These nations are just setting themselves up to be countered economically and politically. Mind you, Sweden may not care but Finland will.

    There is no need to necessarily destroy anything even in the case of war.

    Simply put if Sweden and Finland host NATO infrastructure or formations or their airbases allow refueling then those will become the targets. If there are NATO aircraft attacking Russia through Swedish airspace then Sweden should expect that its airspace will be free for Russia to fly around in too and they ought to pay them the same respect they do to NATO aircraft.

    Sounds like a reasonable position to take in relation to a fake-neutral country, it's not up to Russia to decide Sweden's and Finland's policies for them, only to make clear Russia's position in return.

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    George1
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    Post  George1 Tue Jan 25, 2022 2:00 am

    Sweden doesn’t plan to apply for NATO membership — foreign minister

    https://tass.com/world/1392397
    Hole
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    Post  Hole Tue Jan 25, 2022 6:03 am

    Booo! Cowards! Sanction them! lol!

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    walle83


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    Post  walle83 Fri Jan 28, 2022 11:44 pm

    flamming_python wrote:Those NATO reconnaissance flights seem to have full reign within Swedish airspace.

    Sweden and Finland possible option to join NATO - Page 6 FJaSvtmXMAwbtOn?format=jpg&name=large

    How so? The only airplane flights over Sweden is the Swedish own S100 and S102.
    flamming_python
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    Post  flamming_python Sat Jan 29, 2022 12:41 am

    walle83 wrote:
    flamming_python wrote:Those NATO reconnaissance flights seem to have full reign within Swedish airspace.

    Sweden and Finland possible option to join NATO - Page 6 FJaSvtmXMAwbtOn?format=jpg&name=large

    How so? The only airplane flights over Sweden is the Swedish own S100 and S102.

    My bad. Thought it was a revival of the secret 'Amber Nine' flight path NATO aircraft would take over Sweden during the Cold War
    JohninMK
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    Post  JohninMK Mon Jan 31, 2022 5:12 am

    For most intents and purposes both Sweden and Finland are already effectively in NATO. This ripped from a poster on MoA

    Both Sweden and Finland have signed Memorandums of Understanding (MOUs) with NATO. The Finnish MOU with NATO came into force in 2014.
    The Swedish MOU with NATO came into force in July 2016. (sorry, I can't get this URL to format correctly, but to see the Swedish MOU with NATO, go to https://web.archive.org/web/20160214223359/http://natoutredningen.se/wp-content/uploads/140904-HNS-MoU-Sweden-NATO.pdf">http://natoutredningen.se/wp-content/uploads/140904-HNS-MoU-Sweden-NATO.pdf">https://web.archive.org/web/20160214223359/http://natoutredningen.se/wp-content/uploads/140904-HNS-MoU-Sweden-NATO.pdf

    Both Sweden and Finland have agreed to act as de facto NATO member states, as both nations will accommodate and provide both civil and military support to NATO forces.

    Both these MOUs state:

    The HN [Host Nation, Sweden and Finland] will provide support within its fullest capacity, subject to availability and within the practical limitations of the circumstances that then exist, to the forces deployed on NATO-led military activities.

    · NATO Military Activities: Military actions including exercises, training, operational experimentation and similar activities, or the carrying out of a strategic, tactical, service, training, or administrative military mission performed by forces; the process of carrying on combat, including attack, movement, supply and maneuvers needed to gain the objectives of any battle or campaign.

    · The provisions of this MOU apply in peace, emergencies, crisis and conflict or periods of international tension as may be jointly determined by the appropriate HN [Host Nation, Sweden and Finland] and NATO authorities.

    · Host Nation Support (HNS). The civil and military assistance rendered in peace, emergencies, crisis and conflict by a Host Nation to allied forces and organisations, which are located on, operating in or transiting through the Host Nation’s territory, territorial waters or airspace.

    · NATO military activities supported by this MOU may require multinational support air operations by fixed wing aircraft and helicopters, and in the case of ports, by merchant and military support vessels. The HN [Sweden and Finland] acknowledges that movement of such aircraft, helicopters, ships and their crews in and through HN [Swedish and Finnish] territorial areas, will take place under a general clearance for the duration of the NATO military activity.

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    d_taddei2
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    Post  d_taddei2 Wed Feb 23, 2022 7:17 am

    Despite the MOU. I doubt the Finnish and Swedish want poke the Russian bear and at the same time appease NATO members, it's far less hassle to sit your arse on the fence and take a fairly neutral stance. And I think this also plays into hands of the population of these countries who have no appetite for getting into conflicts and hassle on their doorstep or abroad
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    walle83


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    Post  walle83 Wed Feb 23, 2022 9:09 am

    d_taddei2 wrote:Despite the MOU. I doubt the Finnish and Swedish want poke the Russian bear and at the same time appease NATO members, it's far less hassle to sit your arse on the fence and take a fairly neutral stance. And I think this also plays into hands of the population of these countries who have no appetite for getting into conflicts and hassle on their doorstep or abroad

    More or less the Swedish gouvernement stand today. We work together with other democratic nations and can perform military exersices with Nato. But we dont want to become a full Nato member.

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    Isos
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    Post  Isos Wed Feb 23, 2022 11:29 am

    You are already part of NATO.
    lancelot
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    Post  lancelot Wed Feb 23, 2022 1:05 pm

    How these people forget. Providing safe passage for military troops of another faction makes you part of their faction.

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    flamming_python
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    Post  flamming_python Wed Feb 23, 2022 8:05 pm

    walle83 wrote:
    d_taddei2 wrote:Despite the MOU. I doubt the Finnish and Swedish want poke the Russian bear and at the same time appease NATO members, it's far less hassle to sit your arse on the fence and take a fairly neutral stance. And I think this also plays into hands of the population of these countries who have no appetite for getting into conflicts and hassle on their doorstep or abroad

    More or less the Swedish gouvernement stand today. We work together with other democratic nations and can perform military exersices with Nato. But we dont want to become a full Nato member.

    Best of both worlds huh Smile
    lyle6
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    Post  lyle6 Wed Feb 23, 2022 8:37 pm

    flamming_python wrote:
    Best of both worlds huh Smile
    That's nothing. We have a mutual defence treaty with the US directly - and China's our largest trading partner Razz

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    Isos
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    Post  Isos Wed Feb 23, 2022 9:03 pm

    lancelot wrote:How these people forget. Providing safe passage for military troops of another faction makes you part of their faction.

    Not only that. Their radars monitor russian activities in the north for NATO.

    All the russian tupolev flights are first detected by Sweeden and Finland who serve as early warning bases for Nato.

    In case of a war with nato, russia will have to bomb them and since russia can't afford to fight them + nato they will have to use tactical nuks..

    Sweeden has more than 100 grippen and finlabd is getting tens of f-35. That's a lot of planes.

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    flamming_python
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    Post  flamming_python Wed Feb 23, 2022 10:13 pm

    Isos wrote:
    lancelot wrote:How these people forget. Providing safe passage for military troops of another faction makes you part of their faction.

    Not only that. Their radars monitor russian activities in the north for NATO.

    All the russian tupolev flights are first detected by Sweeden and Finland who serve as early warning bases for Nato.

    In case of a war with nato, russia will have to bomb them and since russia can't afford to fight them + nato they will have to use tactical nuks..

    Sweeden has more than 100 grippen and finlabd is getting tens of f-35. That's a lot of planes.

    Are you here to make provocations or?
    Isos
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    Post  Isos Wed Feb 23, 2022 10:39 pm

    What do you mean ? I'm just analyzing the reality.
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    walle83


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    Post  walle83 Wed Mar 09, 2022 9:01 am

    Putins wish and threat to other european nations not to join Nato seems to have backfired. Finland has never been this positiv to join the allians.



    Also in Sweden 50% of the population are positive to joining Nato, that is the highest number ever. There is also a majority in the Riksdag now to join.
    The Swedish government however say it has no plans to start talks about joining. The pressure is high though.

    https://www.svt.se/nyheter/inrikes/magdalena-andersson-sager-nej-till-nato-medlemskap
    Isos
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    Post  Isos Wed Mar 09, 2022 9:27 am

    One thing they haven't realized is that Russia doesn't want nato forces next to its vital bases. Finland is at artillery range from Northern fleet's naval bases where half of russian SSBN are... which mens nato could wipe out half of russian naval ballistic missiles with two or three nuclear armed rockets.

    That means Russia will need to strike first and no lightly. Those two countries could not exist anymore as soon as they join that alliance.

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    flamming_python
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    Post  flamming_python Wed Mar 09, 2022 9:31 am

    walle83 wrote:Putins wish and threat to other european nations not to join Nato seems to have backfired. Finland has never been this positiv to join the allians.



    Also in Sweden 50% of the population are positive to joining Nato, that is the highest number ever. There is also a majority in the Riksdag now to join.
    The Swedish government however say it has no plans to start talks about joining. The pressure is high though.

    https://www.svt.se/nyheter/inrikes/magdalena-andersson-sager-nej-till-nato-medlemskap

    What makes you think he cares or anyone in Russia cares?

    That Finnish and Swedish elites will be able to sell and present events to their populations to serve their goals is a given

    And this ultimatum was not about Sweden and Finland, who have been effective NATO members for a while now.

    It's more to do with the Ukraine, but not only the Ukraine - bringing down the Western unipolar model in general.
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    Post  walle83 Wed Mar 09, 2022 9:43 am

    flamming_python wrote:
    walle83 wrote:Putins wish and threat to other european nations not to join Nato seems to have backfired. Finland has never been this positiv to join the allians.



    Also in Sweden 50% of the population are positive to joining Nato, that is the highest number ever. There is also a majority in the Riksdag now to join.
    The Swedish government however say it has no plans to start talks about joining. The pressure is high though.

    https://www.svt.se/nyheter/inrikes/magdalena-andersson-sager-nej-till-nato-medlemskap

    What makes you think he cares or anyone in Russia cares?

    That Finnish and Swedish elites will be able to sell and present events to their populations to serve their goals is a given

    And this ultimatum was not about Sweden and Finland, who have been effective NATO members for a while now.

    It's more to do with the Ukraine, but not only the Ukraine - bringing down the Western unipolar model in general.

    Putin stated just a  few weeks ago that the neutral stand that Sweden and Finland has is a good one.
    Russia has also threatend both countries if they were to choose to join Nato.
    https://www.wionews.com/world/russia-warns-nato-against-inclusion-of-finland-sweden-440093
    https://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/a/V92O43/ryssland-hotar-sverige-om-att-ga-med-i-nato

    So yes I would say they care.


    Last edited by walle83 on Wed Mar 09, 2022 10:18 am; edited 1 time in total
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    walle83


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    Post  walle83 Wed Mar 09, 2022 9:48 am

    Isos wrote:One thing they haven't realized is that Russia doesn't want nato forces next to its vital bases. Finland is at artillery range from Northern fleet's naval bases where half of russian SSBN are... which mens nato could wipe out half of russian naval ballistic missiles with two or three nuclear armed rockets.

    That means Russia will need to strike first and no lightly. Those two countries could not exist anymore as soon as they join that alliance.

    If they are having problems with even the Ukrains i suggest they dont mess with the nordic countries.

    The alternative is a nuclear strike, and then we are all fucked.

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