Sweden and Finland possible option to join NATO

Nah Garry, we know why Sweden has to join Nato, it has nothing to do with Russia, but more to do with getting Nato to protect them from their own "DIVERSE" population.
There are already plenty of Kalashnikov armed "child refugees" "culturally enriching" the local area.

So how has NATO membership helped lighten up the population in other NATO countries?

I would suggest it hasn't... in fact the major direct impact has been the immediate introduction of US soldiers, which come in a range of colours... so perhaps those pale northerners will still get some colour anyway... they might not like it, but ask any native group about how they felt about the spanish, or dutch, or english or french arriving to their beautiful shores... what goes around comes around.

GarryB wrote:So how has NATO membership helped lighten up the population in other NATO countries?

I would suggest it hasn't... in fact the major direct impact has been the immediate introduction of US soldiers, which come in a range of colours... so perhaps those pale northerners will still get some colour anyway... they might not like it, but ask any native group about how they felt about the spanish, or dutch, or english or french arriving to their beautiful shores... what goes around comes around.

Holy crap, a progressive, yes let's use the past to justify our BS.
At least the Europeans brought civilization, all i see these people bringing is crime and economic fallout.

At least the Europeans brought civilization, all i see these people bringing is crime and economic fallout.

Civilisation is what you call it is it?

More like you turned their world upside down and told they everything they thought was wrong...

Now they are returning the favour...

Your magic beans didn't work so now they want a refund...

GarryB wrote:

At least the Europeans brought civilization, all i see these people bringing is crime and economic fallout.

Civilisation is what you call it is it?

More like you turned their world upside down and told they everything they thought was wrong...

Now they are returning the favour...

Your magic beans didn't work so now they want a refund...

Yea, except this "favour" don't work for sh%t.
At least the colonials favour actually worked when they did it.

They are the ones that wanted to rule themselves, and they F'ed up, they only got themselves to blame.

Yea, except this "favour" don't work for sh%t.
At least the colonials favour actually worked when they did it.

They are the ones that wanted to rule themselves, and they F'ed up, they only got themselves to blame.

The cost for that favour for most native peoples gifted with colonisation from Europe was a very significant portion of their populations being wiped out and all their land stolen, so when these refugees have eliminated millions of Europeans and are living in their houses while the former occupants are sent to the less productive land in that particular country then we can say we are all square.

Translation: if we can bribe their politicians to turn their countries into minions.

Translation: now that you have spent the last 30 years post cold war living in peace and prosperity... douse yourself in a mixture of fuel oil and kerosene and we will give a nice cigar to savour the moment with...

Can anyone say flame bait?

It was Lithuania that fell on its sword to test the independent Taiwan trap, so now they are looking for volunteers to piss Putin off.

Funny, it was not that long ago the Finns complained about access to cheap Russian wood... I wonder how Finland joining HATO will effect their relationship... especially with Finnish politicians talking about all the territory they want back from Russia...

Seems being a good neighbour is not good enough and I think this is what Putin is talking about... if they cross the red line they are going to learn what an angry Russian neighbour is like... don't expect any give... just all take... and I don't mean invasion or lining troops up on the border...

Finnish claims on Karelia are marginally more legit than the Japanese claims on the four islands near Hokkaido.
They were getting in bed with Hitler and got into a war as a result. During WWII they confirmed their fervent
loyalty to Hitler and ran concentration camps for Russian civilians. If they were not such loyal bootlicks during a
war of genocide, then maybe they would have gotten the land back. But being the legal losers of the war, they
had to pay reparations (not exclusive to money).

Finnish nationalists think that Finland existed 10,000 years ago. Nationalism of the type seen in the Baltics, Ukraine,
etc., is a type brain disease. Making up fictional history and then killing over it. In real history, there were
Finno-Ugric peoples, the Uralic group, that straddled the Ural mountains on both the European and Asian sides.
I suppose the Hungarians and the Finns should claim Russia. But Hungarians appear not to be demented in their
identity and don't pine for some myth dating back 10,000 years.

Doesn't matter what Finland can claim. Everyone is claiming Russian land. Everyone is claiming each others land. In the end, is Russia capable of defending it? It is, but politically it isn't. Their politics is still weak. Russian leadership should say "Finland is free to join whomever they want, just remember, we are your largest trading partner and no one will actually assist you if you are in trouble".

Russia can easily destroy the lifestyle of Finland and in the end, for Finland to upkeep their lifestyle they oh so love to staye is better than russias, they will have to live off of debt and good will from the west which comes at a heavy cost. It's up to them. Finland is within easy reach of Russian missiles that Russia doesn't require anything big and strong to wipe it off the map. Just saying.

The thing is that joining HATO means they can't be neutral should any conflict break out in the future... no matter how small and petty it is, and of course there are requirements to being in HATO, like having the right overpriced kit and buying the stuff we recommend (ie either old stuff we want to off load so we can buy the new stuff if you are poor or cheap, or super expensive new stuff if you want the best.)

You lose your independence and also make Russia an actual enemy, which means your relationship from neighbour and trading partner changes to neighbour and part of a military construct dedicated to hating Russia.

Even for the Baltic states that has cost them in terms of money and trade as Russia shifted from using their port to using their own ports in the region, for Finland this could be just as important... because as the Baltic states and even the Ukraine has found, when you switch sides all that trade and business you had with Russia has to go away by order of Washington so you cut that off yourself, but in return western countries are not going to have little economic rallies where they promote your products and services to replace the Russian customers you just rejected... so your economy is going to take a sudden huge hit, and you will be expected to change most of your military gear to suit HATO standards, which mainly means get rid of Soviet and Russian stuff even if it still get the job done and buy the western equivalent, though it might not be as good it will certainly be much more expensive and complex.

Sweden and Finland are welcome to join HATO and there is no way Russia can stop them... but equally Syria and Iran and North Korea and Cuba can join a new Russian military organisation where any attack on one is an attack on all, meaning US troops will need to be removed from Syrian territory and terrorists and Kurd nationalists would need to be subdued, and of course Russia and Syrian air defence systems in Syria will have to start working together shooting down targets including launch platforms outside Syrian Airspace if they are launching weapons at targets inside Syria.

Does the US still want Sweden and Finland to join HATO?

Russia can't say no and has no veto.... but the US and the west has no veto over Russia either... maybe they could come to an understanding?

I am sure they will... later on... in private...

BTW regarding the claims of extremist idiots... when I sign an official document I can put New Zealander these days but in the past I used to have to put European or Caucasian... if I am Caucasian then I must originally come from the Caucasus, so shall I go there and try to claim a piece for myself?

Of course not... not when I just got this email from Nigeria to say that the minister of finance has just died and left $50 million dollars to me personally in his will and to get it I just need to send them $10,000 in legal fees and it is all mine...

@AlfaT8

I don't honestly think it is funny that foreign migrants are murdering and raping people in countries in Europe, but I just want to put it in context.

The west has been the dominant power for centuries and has grown and developed and life is actually quite comfortable and relatively easy even if you have made a lot of parts complex and difficult. If you don't want a super new house and a brand new super car and a brand new phone every year then things probably aren't as bad as they are in some countries the west has colonised. There are some countries with resources the west covets that are broken and remain broken because it is easier to steal their resources that way... and that is the doing of the western governments... obviously with the help of some corrupt locals but they couldn't do it on their own.

The west paints itself as the centre of civilisation the moral and cultural hub of the world... and is constantly criticising and preaching to other countries for doing things wrong based on their own morals and culture which they themselves betray when it suits them. Their ethics and morals are whips to beat other countries with, they never hold themselves to account... when they are proven criminal it is the whistleblower that broke the laws... murdering people in other countries with attack helicopters is not in US law so it is not illegal right? Not moral either but ignore that.

The suffering these criminals are inflicting is the sort of day to day life they dealt with in their own countries.... it is a sad truth but people commit crimes... and the amusing truth is the warped west these days think hugs and kisses are the solution... maybe their fathers didn't love them enough when they were growing up... unless of course it was their daughter and then they will want the death penalty.

The best solution for the migrant crisis is to fix Libya so it is a working country again that can contain and deal with people smugglers on that side of the Med, and also stop shitting on countries like Syria and Afghanistan and even Iraq and Yemen... but that is never going to stop why you are Americas bitches... Nord Stream II is delayed because American people with power in states that sell gas want more access to the European market.... they can't match piped gas prices from Russia so they want their pipes banned so they can compete in the more expensive market that would create... and yet you still do as you are told.

Your problem is not Migrants.

Your problem is your pussy leaders and I suspect I know the actual problem.

The US leads the now famous five eyes spy programme and has been exposed multiple times spying.... they are not spying on Russia or China... they are spying on their own allies in Europe and Asia.... they are looking for filth.... for dirt on all up and coming politicians as well as those already in positions of power, because having dirt on them gives them leverage and power over them so they essentially control them. No dirt and they destroy your career... that will be why Le Pen and Corban never seem to win elections... not enough dirt to control them so they sabotage them instead by helping the people they do have leverage on... because if they get into power instead they get control.

Swedish defence minister Peter Hultqvist denies any plans for Sweden to join NATO.

https://sverigesradio.se/artikel/forsvarsministern-avfardar-oppositionens-krav-om-nato

"The Swedish government has no ambition to change Swedish security policy stance"

Sweden deploys troops from the mainland to the island of Gotland in the Baltic.

https://www.svt.se/nyheter/lokalt/ost/militarkonvoj
https://www.svt.se/nyheter/lokalt/ost/har-lastas-soldater-och-fordon-fran-fastlandet-av-pa-gotland

walle83 wrote:Swedish defence minister Peter Hultqvist denies any plans for Sweden to join NATO.

https://sverigesradio.se/artikel/forsvarsministern-avfardar-oppositionens-krav-om-nato

"The Swedish government has no ambition to change Swedish security policy stance"

The Finish Prime Minister has done the same, no NATO for them too.

Joining HATO would not make them any safer and in fact would greatly worsen relations with Russia... not that they would be too upset about that but especially for Finland there is a bit of trade going over that border that would be effected.

To be clear right now obviously Russia trades with Germany and other HATO members, but they have stated publicly they are not happy with HATO expansion and they want it to stop.

They have not threatened to attack or invade anyone if their interests are ignored... I am pretty sure Finland and Sweden joining HATO would not start WWIII, but Russia would obviously change its relations with all HATO members because they would all have to approve this to allow it to happen, which means they all acted against Russian interests.

Obviously they can do what they like and Russia can't stop them, but there are plenty of things Russia can do, like recognising HATO as a threat to Russian national security and dramatically restrict or even cut ties with its members would be an obvious first step... if HATO wants to make Russia an enemy then they are unlikely to find growth and development and fair trade in that direction, so funding for the navy needs to massively increase and Russia needs to start looking to the rest of the world for trade and development and growth... start working on ties with BRICS countries... maybe add a few more countries to the group... boost trade and cooperation amongst the countries involved, and work towards helping them off their dependence on the west and the international organisations the west controls and misuses and abuses.

It does not surprise me that Sweden and Finland don't want to be cannon fodder for stupid American games.

Obviously they would have joined years ago if they didn't care about their own people and just wanted to please other european powers and the US.

GarryB wrote:Joining HATO would not make them any safer and in fact would greatly worsen relations with Russia... not that they would be too upset about that but especially for Finland there is a bit of trade going over that border that would be effected.

To be clear right now obviously Russia trades with Germany and other HATO members, but they have stated publicly they are not happy with HATO expansion and they want it to stop.

They have not threatened to attack or invade anyone if their interests are ignored... I am pretty sure Finland and Sweden joining HATO would not start WWIII, but Russia would obviously change its relations with all HATO members because they would all have to approve this to allow it to happen, which means they all acted against Russian interests.

Obviously they can do what they like and Russia can't stop them, but there are plenty of things Russia can do, like recognising HATO as a threat to Russian national security and dramatically restrict or even cut ties with its members would be an obvious first step... if HATO wants to make Russia an enemy then they are unlikely to find growth and development and fair trade in that direction, so funding for the navy needs to massively increase and Russia needs to start looking to the rest of the world for trade and development and growth... start working on ties with BRICS countries... maybe add a few more countries to the group... boost trade and cooperation amongst the countries involved, and work towards helping them off their dependence on the west and the international organisations the west controls and misuses and abuses.

It does not surprise me that Sweden and Finland don't want to be cannon fodder for stupid American games.

Obviously they would have joined years ago if they didn't care about their own people and just wanted to please other european powers and the US.

Joining Nato has two sides, yes Russia would probably threaten us more and testing our defences. But at the same time it would take alot more before they would attack for real. Ukraine, Georgia, Kasaksthan is one thing. Doing the same to a full Nato country is something else.

As a Swed myself i can say that 75% of the population dont give the **** about the Russians. Joining Nato I would say is about 50/50. As long as the Socialdemocrats has the power it will not happen however. In 5-10 years who knows.

The point is they are not going to attack unless they feel threatened and an expanding HATO is what is threatening them.

By joining HATO you greatly increase the chances of hostility and any threat of an attack from Russia... you might have noticed the Russians are saying they prefer diplomacy to bombs and missiles... the parties to the Syrian conflict could probably confirm that they had the choice to fight the Russians or talk and the ones that are fighting chose to fight.

Sitting on the other side of the planet I just think you Europeans are being stupid... you are being used by the US whose biggest fear is not Russia attacks Europe... they don't give a shit about Europe... they are currently interfering with NSII to try to keep gas prices high so their gas companies can make good profits... they don't care that that essentially makes life harder for everyone in Europe by making energy more expensive... the whole purpose of HATO now it to drive a wedge between Europe and Russia... now I can be honest... I actually quite like that because I think ultimately Russia benefits from not being assimilated into western culture, which I think has lost its way... I think Russia and the rest of the world need to find a different path than the one taken by the US and blindly followed by the rest of the people who identify as being western.

But I am also looking forward to a real multipolar world where the US is not in charge because other centres of power including the EU and Britain and Russia and China and Japan and South Korea and other states start thinking about their own interests about their own citizens... where they don't team up in gangs to bully other countries or groups of countries.... it is not going to happen next week, but Europe has to completely change the way the EU works or France and German and Greece and Italy and other countries are going to say we don't want to bend to the will of the US any more... we might want to work with the Russians to get cheap gas energy... screw the Ukrainians... we don't owe them anything. It isn't even about the Ukraine... it is about the US selling gas.

BTW I don't think Russia would threaten Sweden at all. They would likely allocate a specific number of nuclear weapons to point at you if WWIII kicks off, but I think they would rather do the opposite to threaten you... I think they would leave you alone and ignore you... any remaining ties with them would likely be cut or frozen. Trade and interaction would likely cease... which might not effect you at all, but for the rest of HATO, that gas energy they sell you might get priority in other markets like China who would likely want more.

walle83 wrote:

GarryB wrote:Joining HATO would not make them any safer and in fact would greatly worsen relations with Russia... not that they would be too upset about that but especially for Finland there is a bit of trade going over that border that would be effected.

To be clear right now obviously Russia trades with Germany and other HATO members, but they have stated publicly they are not happy with HATO expansion and they want it to stop.

They have not threatened to attack or invade anyone if their interests are ignored... I am pretty sure Finland and Sweden joining HATO would not start WWIII, but Russia would obviously change its relations with all HATO members because they would all have to approve this to allow it to happen, which means they all acted against Russian interests.

Obviously they can do what they like and Russia can't stop them, but there are plenty of things Russia can do, like recognising HATO as a threat to Russian national security and dramatically restrict or even cut ties with its members would be an obvious first step... if HATO wants to make Russia an enemy then they are unlikely to find growth and development and fair trade in that direction, so funding for the navy needs to massively increase and Russia needs to start looking to the rest of the world for trade and development and growth... start working on ties with BRICS countries... maybe add a few more countries to the group... boost trade and cooperation amongst the countries involved, and work towards helping them off their dependence on the west and the international organisations the west controls and misuses and abuses.

It does not surprise me that Sweden and Finland don't want to be cannon fodder for stupid American games.

Obviously they would have joined years ago if they didn't care about their own people and just wanted to please other european powers and the US.

Joining Nato has two sides, yes Russia would probably threaten us more and testing our defences. But at the same time it would take alot more before they would attack for real. Ukraine, Georgia, Kasaksthan is one thing. Doing the same to a full Nato country is something else.

As a Swed myself i can say that 75% of the population dont give the **** about the Russians. Joining Nato I would say is about 50/50. As long as the Socialdemocrats has the power it will not happen however. In 5-10 years who knows.

It will happen I suspect if Washington makes a few phone calls. It's not a co-incidence that with the crisis in relations, Sweden and Finland in sync are now raising the issue of NATO membership and saying it's up to them, while NATO is saying it's ready to accept them anytime
There is no agency of the Swedish people or anyone else here, I don't believe in that. It's up to the elites and its to the elites that Russia is demonstrating this or that.

The US has violated Swedish airspace more times than Russia has, but this isn't brought up by the Swedish media, only the Russian 'testing of defenses'. Well Sweden is signing away its own sovereignty and is pretty much an undeclared member of a hostile military alliance.

Sweden needs to decide whether it's a member of NATO or a neutral state, that won't allow any overflies by NATO air-forces or anyone else. In that case Russia in turn would have no right and no need to go anywhere near it.
If it decides to join NATO, that's its right - but this organization has only one target - Russia. And Russia would be within its right to target whatever poses a threat to its security in Sweden in the event of hostilities between Russia and NATO.

Backman wrote:

Battalion0415 wrote:Speciality Swedes need NATO when they have smaller troops near Russia.

It will cost 3 billion euro to join NATO but it's worth every money Sweden give to NATO.

Russia can attack's Sweden about 10 year in future and Sweden need help from outside country.

All help Sweden need to fight back enemies.

The surest way to decrease your security is to become a pawn on Russia's periphery controlled by Washington DC.

Why wouldn't you want to stand on your own feet and deal with Russia yourself ? Like you are doing now.

Tell that to the baltics. Saw a interview with primeminster of Lettia I think it was the other day. She wasnt worried about any Russian attack at all. Becaouse she knew that a attack on them would be an attack on the Nato as a whole.

flamming_python wrote:

walle83 wrote:

GarryB wrote:Joining HATO would not make them any safer and in fact would greatly worsen relations with Russia... not that they would be too upset about that but especially for Finland there is a bit of trade going over that border that would be effected.

To be clear right now obviously Russia trades with Germany and other HATO members, but they have stated publicly they are not happy with HATO expansion and they want it to stop.

They have not threatened to attack or invade anyone if their interests are ignored... I am pretty sure Finland and Sweden joining HATO would not start WWIII, but Russia would obviously change its relations with all HATO members because they would all have to approve this to allow it to happen, which means they all acted against Russian interests.

Obviously they can do what they like and Russia can't stop them, but there are plenty of things Russia can do, like recognising HATO as a threat to Russian national security and dramatically restrict or even cut ties with its members would be an obvious first step... if HATO wants to make Russia an enemy then they are unlikely to find growth and development and fair trade in that direction, so funding for the navy needs to massively increase and Russia needs to start looking to the rest of the world for trade and development and growth... start working on ties with BRICS countries... maybe add a few more countries to the group... boost trade and cooperation amongst the countries involved, and work towards helping them off their dependence on the west and the international organisations the west controls and misuses and abuses.

It does not surprise me that Sweden and Finland don't want to be cannon fodder for stupid American games.

Obviously they would have joined years ago if they didn't care about their own people and just wanted to please other european powers and the US.

Joining Nato has two sides, yes Russia would probably threaten us more and testing our defences. But at the same time it would take alot more before they would attack for real. Ukraine, Georgia, Kasaksthan is one thing. Doing the same to a full Nato country is something else.

As a Swed myself i can say that 75% of the population dont give the **** about the Russians. Joining Nato I would say is about 50/50. As long as the Socialdemocrats has the power it will not happen however. In 5-10 years who knows.

It will happen I suspect if Washington makes a few phone calls.

Doubt that extremly much, I dont think the Swedish government would dare before having a puplic election. And as it stand today its not a sure thing.

walle83 wrote:
Tell that to the baltics. Saw a interview with primeminster of Lettia I think it was the other day. She wasnt worried about any Russian attack at all. Becaouse she knew that a attack on them would be an attack on the Nato as a whole.

She is clearly under the delusion that NATO is a single class organisation. It isn't.

If she thinks that an attack on say Norway, with a Russian border, would elicit the same response as an attack on her country, also with a Russian border, she is delusional and ought to read Article 5 rather closely as to what the signatories are actually obliged to do.

Especially as, in the unlikely event that Russia did attack, they would be paddling in the Baltic in a few hours. Way faster than the current version of NATO could react.