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    S-300P/400 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    lyle6
    lyle6

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    Post  lyle6 Tue Oct 12, 2021 4:22 pm

    >long range SAMs wasted intercepting munitions
    What troon scripted this shit?
    The-thing-next-door
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    Post  The-thing-next-door Tue Oct 12, 2021 4:30 pm

    Isos wrote:
    The main tactic to attack AD is to fly low and try to launch quickly ARM missiles.

    Do they not still have that retarded backup plan of trying to dodge missiles and use dumb bombs against missile sites?
    Isos
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    Post  Isos Tue Oct 12, 2021 4:34 pm

    The-thing-next-door wrote:
    Isos wrote:
    The main tactic to attack AD is to fly low and try to launch quickly ARM missiles.

    Do they not still have that retarded backup plan of trying to dodge missiles and use dumb bombs against missile sites?

    I doubt. HARM or cruise missiles until they destroy all the modern SAMs.

    NATO doesn't plan to fly anything where there are modern SAMs.

    That's why it's important to have plenty of Tors, Pantsir and Sosna missiles systems to destroy PGM attacking your radars and S-400s.
    Hole
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    Post  Hole Tue Oct 12, 2021 8:17 pm

    Yeah, fly low. Good idea. The dumb russians wont see you. Rolling Eyes

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    Isos
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    Post  Isos Wed Oct 13, 2021 12:05 am

    That's a very limited solution. It doesn't increase that much detection range against low flying targets.

    They will always need to deploy lot of SHORADS and medium range SAMs around those S-400 to really protect them.
    miketheterrible
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    Post  miketheterrible Wed Oct 13, 2021 1:15 am

    With new command and control setups (mobile), most AD systems are unmanned and even in a saturated attack they expect to lose some equipment, but since all can be easily controlled from another point, it doesn't make them lose a whole lot if a few systems knocked out.

    One thing not mentioned is that Russia uses EW systems in ad structures to try and spoof systems and jam targeting. So just another layer added.
    Singular_Transform
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    Post  Singular_Transform Wed Oct 13, 2021 10:46 am

    Looks like no one has understanding about the IADS working.

    The long range, low frequency radars pick up the general picture of airspace, including the low flying targets/indtruders, the medium/high frequency radars identify them.

    These are the early warning / target locator equipment.

    The S-x00 system activated only if they have a command to destroy an identified target, in that case they activate the relevant radars for acquisition , illumination ,target tracking and missile guidance.

    The S-x00 system use its radars for minutes only, after shooting they most likelly pack everything and move to a new location.


    It is next to impossible to target the early warning radars with HARM missiles.
    The position of the S-x00 units unknown .

    How could anyone conduct a saturation attack in this enviroment ?

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    Isos
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    Post  Isos Wed Oct 13, 2021 10:53 am

    How could anyone conduct a saturation attack in this enviroment ? wrote:

    There are plenty of ways to find an AD system. One could be a lucky satelitte image analyst. Then you just try to bomb it with cruise missiles.

    That would be hard against Russia but a country with much smaller forces and few systems like Venezuela would have hard time fcing cruise missiles attacks.
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Wed Oct 13, 2021 1:47 pm

    HARMS and cruise missiles are trivial targets for modern Russian SAMs... even SA-8 and SA-9 and SA-13 units would slaughter cruise missiles, while TOR and Pantsir and BUK and S-350 are intended to destroy HARMS and standoff weapons.

    And of course most components move... TOR and Pantsir can engage targets while moving, and of course the local air power can also contribute to dealing with air threats and missiles can be launched at staging areas and enemy launch platforms before they launch maximising their effect.

    For every SAM battery there will be inflatable decoys and jammers with most batteries receiving target data from the IADS network rather than their own sensors... so they are not revealing their own positions.

    A single TOR vehicle in a battery could turn on its radar to detect targets and hand those targets to the other vehicles in that battery to deal with in electronic silence.
    Hole
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    Post  Hole Wed Oct 13, 2021 8:10 pm

    If a fighter jet flies very low, trying to avoid early detection, the range of his sensors and ARM will be low as well, propably down to something like 50 - 60 km. The best option would be to fly high and try to jam the radars until you can launch your anti-radar missiles at maximum range. The name DEAD for that mission is very fitting. Very Happy

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    Singular_Transform
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    Post  Singular_Transform Wed Oct 13, 2021 8:48 pm

    Isos wrote:

    There are plenty of ways to find an AD system. One could be a lucky satelitte image analyst. Then you just try to bomb it with cruise missiles.

    That would be hard against Russia but a country with much smaller forces and few systems like Venezuela would have hard time fcing cruise missiles attacks.


    The full NATO force failed to destroy a single Serbian high altitude SAM , and they dedicated third of those missions for SEAD.


    Problme for the agression is the defender has teh next equation:
    Required stauration attack missiles = (Number of SAM systems / detection chance + number of decoy sites /detection chance) * efficiency of the short range SAM protection systems.


    Means the defender has to solve a linear programming equation, that has to deliver the required cost (in regards of manpower hours) of HARM missiles to destroy the defender assets one magnitude higher than the cost of the IADS.


    Get it ?

    The decoys cheap, and the number of saturation missiles dictated by the capability of SAM sites to defent themselves.

    Means with relativly few PANTSIR ,and super cheap decoys it is possible to require thousands of missiles to destroy one single radar.


    In Serbia the NATO was forced to shoot HARM missiles in the possible direction of radars,wasting the inventory to false / not existing targets.
    Consdier if the had pantsirs, the NATO would have to shoot tens of missiles for each bomb they drop.


    And that was an incapable, extremly outdated system.
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Thu Oct 14, 2021 8:32 am

    More to the point that HATO essentially had full air control over Iraq in the 1990s and still didn't destroy a single Scud launcher on the ground in the process of launching a missile despite launching missiles in huge numbers.

    In the Kosovo conflict, again they had full radar and air coverage that was not effectively interfered with by anyone, they were able to mobilise the resources of HATO in a local conflict they didn't have to move large distances to engage in, yet their performance against mediocre equipment was terrible... but then their much better performance against forces in the Middle East against better equipped enemies shows it is how you use your equipment as much as what equipment you have.

    Their problems over Russia... there is no surprise and the Russians will be able to see everything they are doing in real time, and they have a competent air force and ability to strike back... and after the first attacks begin they will be able to reciprocate and attack vulnerable things in EU or further afield if they deem it necessary.

    With HATO being so air power based attacks on there HQs and communications centres are not something they have ever had to come to terms with against any other enemy since WWII.

    I don't think they would cope well at all.

    The real irony is that people suggest carriers are sitting ducks, but they are at the hub of an IAD that is the strongest you can make it at sea, which is why most naval powers want carriers because air power is a force multiplier but you don't want it to be your only defence...

    OTH radar provide early warning, which is critical... SAMS and aircraft can't just be switched on like a light... many naval SAMs require 10 minutes to prepare for operations and most are not intended to be operational 24/7 for long periods.

    An aircraft carrier with an AWACS offers the closest equivalent to a naval group, though their mobility helps too.
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    Post  tanino Thu Oct 14, 2021 10:59 am

    The 40/50 km of control (visible horizon) is the challenge of the next 5-10 years.

    It is not a coincidence that Russian designers are extending the range of the short range.

    the short range of the 90's, no longer exists, it has been incorporated with the medium range.
    George1
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    Post  George1 Thu Oct 14, 2021 11:08 am

    tanino wrote:The 40/50 km of control (visible horizon) is the challenge of the next 5-10 years.

    It is not a coincidence that Russian designers are extending the range of the short range.

    the short range of the 90's, no longer exists, it has been incorporated with the medium range.

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