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    S-300P/400 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

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    Azi

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    Post  Azi Sun Jun 13, 2021 9:38 pm

    The A-235 system is ABM only! It will have three kinds of missiles, ranging from short (40 km altitude) to long (800 km or more altitude). The long range missiles (silo based) will have a nuclear warhead with 5 kt, like the older systems. The short and medium range missiles will have a kinetic interceptor. The short and medium range missiles will be mounted on a truck and are not silo based.

    The S-500 is against ALL kinds of air threats, ranging from drones, to aircraft to all kind of missiles. Like Garry wrote it is high mobile and intended for protection of high value targets.

    Both systems are needed, S-500 can't replace A-235 and otherwise. Both systems overlaps in protection and will be part of the typical russian layered air defense.

    S-500 is worldwide well known, but A-235 is more secret project with only rare information. This is to the reason that Russia will sell S-500 for export, if something new is in the pipe. A-235 is a sophisticated high-tech project, intented to secure the strategic interest and existence of Russia. No A-235 component will be ever sold!

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    Post  GarryB Mon Jun 14, 2021 1:21 pm

    The A-235 system is ABM only! It will have three kinds of missiles, ranging from short (40 km altitude) to long (800 km or more altitude). The long range missiles (silo based) will have a nuclear warhead with 5 kt, like the older systems. The short and medium range missiles will have a kinetic interceptor. The short and medium range missiles will be mounted on a truck and are not silo based.

    Do you have any information about these TEL trucks?

    The system A-235 is ABM only at at the moment is Moscow ABM only, but might be used in Leningrad and/or Vladivostok in time.

    Most Soviet ICBMs were shown on trucks during parades, but the trucks were just used to deliver the missiles to their silos so they could be lowered into those silos ready for use. If you have seen TEL trucks for A-235 I would be very interested to have a look. Smile

    The S-500 is against ALL kinds of air threats, ranging from drones, to aircraft to all kind of missiles. Like Garry wrote it is high mobile and intended for protection of high value targets.

    Agreed it will be able to hit all sorts of targets just like S-300V missiles and S-400 missiles can, but these S-500 missiles are designed to hit targets moving at up to 7km/s or faster and both inside and outside the atmosphere... these are big powerful heavy missiles that will be co-located with other missile systems... having a TOR battery with them means if a small guided missile is detected approaching then a TOR will be launched rather than an S-500 because the TOR is much cheaper and optimised for that sort of task.

    A B-2 flying 500km away and yes they would probably launch an S-500 to take it out because of the value of the target warrants it, but a mini Turkish drone... no... not if there was something else that could take it down cheaper.

    Both systems are needed, S-500 can't replace A-235 and otherwise. Both systems overlaps in protection and will be part of the typical russian layered air defense.

    For defending a fixed point the A-235 is probably better but its radar and command facilities will not be mobile so even if the lighter missiles are truck mobile the system is not so it would make sense to launch from silos because they are already built and provide protection from attack.

    The S-500 is mobile which will be its best feature and when they put it in mass production and onto large ships then Russian Air defence capacity will cover all bases... they might end up using it to shoot at rocks from space if they detect them early enough.

    S-500 is worldwide well known, but A-235 is more secret project with only rare information. This is to the reason that Russia will sell S-500 for export, if something new is in the pipe. A-235 is a sophisticated high-tech project, intented to secure the strategic interest and existence of Russia. No A-235 component will be ever sold!

    Might be a while before export versions of S-500 are available... not the least because export restrictions on missiles don't allow missiles with flight ranges of more than about 300km to be sold... export Iskander has a range of 280km for instance... S-500 would have a range double that in its Russian version.
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    Post  GarryB Mon Jun 14, 2021 4:24 pm

    Just had a look at the thread on the Nudol A-235 missile and its range of 3,000km does make it very much an equivalent of the GBI... except it works more reliably.

    It also mentioned mobile launchers which is rather new, but as I mentioned most of the system is not mobile so they must have another reason for the mobile launchers.

    Perhaps there are plans to allow the A-235 to be used together with the S-500 system where the smaller A-235 missiles can move around with the S-500 system using target information from its radars and systems to detect targets and threats and to perhaps work together with that to hit higher operating satellites perhaps?

    One of the primary problems of the PAC-3 Patriot... the version for ATBM use, is that it needs satellite uplink time to actually work which makes it enormously expensive.

    In comparison the S-400 has all the radars and systems it needs to do its job and can be moved to a location and be ready to work in less than 10 minutes... making it actually practical and mobile.

    If you had THAAD and Patriot PAC-3 then you would still need a decent SAM to engage cruise missiles and fighters and bombers and other aerial targets before you got something approaching the performance of S-400 and the PAC-2 and PAC-3 and THAAD systems would each cost more than an S-400 system... if you were allowed to buy them.
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    Post  Azi Mon Jun 14, 2021 11:14 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    Do you have any information about these TEL trucks?
    It should be the MZKT chassis (MZKT-79291).

    https://topwar.ru/183698-kompleks-nudol-na-fone-drugih-komponentov-pro.html

    It is not confirmed! All test so far that I know with missiles were silo based. The project at all is very very secret!

    And another source...

    https://naviny.online/article/20210411/1618116818-bitva-za-mkzt-moskva-perestala-vykruchivat-ruki-no-eto-lish-smena

    ---

    With the ABM treaty now gone, thanks to Uncle Sam...A-235 will be stationed to protect all bigger cities (Moscow, Piter, Wladiwostok...).

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    Post  Azi Mon Jun 14, 2021 11:37 pm

    ...


    Last edited by Azi on Tue Jun 15, 2021 10:54 am; edited 1 time in total
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    Post  Azi Mon Jun 14, 2021 11:39 pm

    As far as I know is THAAD and AEGIS not intended for the interception of ICBM. GBI is! GBI is based on the Taurus missile and a kill vehicle. It's a silo based system. Of course THAAD and AEGIS have the capabilities of ICBM interception...or let's write terminal interception of warheads.

    The characteristics of THAAD and AEGIS (with all their standard missiles) are inferior to S-500, both in range and altitude. GBI is comparable to A-235 and it's predecessors, like Garry wrote.

    Funny that USA split their efforts in missile defense between Navy, Army and Air Force, so that USA has x systems, but none of them working really good. AEGIS is not a navalized THAAD and vice versa!
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    Post  GarryB Tue Jun 15, 2021 12:26 pm

    Funny that USA split their efforts in missile defense between Navy, Army and Air Force, so that USA has x systems, but none of them working really good.

    The only air defence systems of the US that I respect are the navy ones... on board their ships and their ships linked together with AEGIS is really the only IADS they ever really developed...

    The Army stuff is a joke... Air Force cast off missiles like AMRAAM and Sidewinder and Stinger.

    Patriot and THAAD have serious issues and problems and as we have seen in Saudi Arabia.... a well planned attack can completely bypass them and make them look silly.

    The USN Standard system is rather more capable and is something worth a bit of respect, because together with AEGIS it is actually a proper IADS even if it is not a nationwide system protecting the US, but a shipwide system protecting groups of US ships.

    As far as I know is THAAD and AEGIS not intended for the interception of ICBM. GBI is! GBI is based on the Taurus missile and a kill vehicle. It's a silo based system. Of course THAAD and AEGIS have the capabilities of ICBM interception...or let's write terminal interception of warheads.

    THAAD is a theatre ABM system it was never intended to intercept IRBMs because under the INF treaty such things were banned anyway, and the ABM treaty meant anti ICBM or SLBM weapons were banned too so THAAD was designed and intended to engage short range ballistic missiles and it is not super great at doing that.

    AEGIS uses Standard SM-2 and SM-6 missiles... they are two stage long missile with decent range that I would probably compare with the S-300V system if you could combine the two into one missile. They can shoot down air targets and ballistic targets and seem reasonably capable.

    GBI is comparable to A-235 and it's predecessors, like Garry wrote.

    Except A-235 is the latest evolution of a mature operational ABM system.

    Considering that Russia now has a ring of OTH radars looking out from its borders for threats from the wave tops to deep up into space, what they are lacking is an ABM missile that is located around the place to defend more than just Moscow... which was essentially a limitation of the ABM treaty.

    Now the treaty is gone and considering that unlike previous ABMs located in Moscow that had ranges of 400-500-600km at most, these new missiles reach much further and much higher, so basing them all in the ring around Moscow limits their reach... A-235 means they can be located further afield and more radars scanning the airspace inside Russian territory can be used for ABM management to shoot down a variety of targets... they could put A-235 missiles near the Northern and Pacific Fleets, near St Petersburg, in a multitude of other places where it could be useful to hit threats early.

    S-500 is going to take that a step further and make roaming ABM systems a reality... whether it is on armoured trains carrying unlimited range nuclear powered cruise missiles or on ships sailing around the world able to put into port and defend the local area from any heavy ballistic attack... something unheard of previously, though with SM-6 and its relatively wide deployment on US ships something the US has had too, though S-500 seems to be going to be rather more impressive in every regard.

    When they mentioned a 7km/s target speed they did say it could engage targets going faster in some situations...


    S-400 can engage targets moving at 4.8km/s which means it can probably engage SLBM warheads already anyway.
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    Post  Russian_Patriot_ Thu Jun 17, 2021 5:46 pm

    The new Yenisei radar for the S-500 Prometheus air defense systems has been put into service. 

    The latest Yenisei radar, a modern and versatile aerial reconnaissance vehicle capable of tracking even hypersonic targets, has been adopted. This was reported by the weekly newspaper "Zvezda".

    One of the key features of the Yenisei, in contrast to the standard radar of the S-400 Triumph complex, is the ability to work continuously for a long time and in automatic mode. Therefore, now the Yenisei radar has also been used as part of the S-400, along with the 96L6 all-altitude detector, in order to increase the efficiency of the complex.

    The latest radar is able to detect air objects, both "own" and "foreign", at an altitude of more than 100 kilometers and at a distance of more than 600 kilometers, this also applies to hypersonic missiles. At the same time, the work is not carried out by sector, but by a round-robin review. The jammers will not be able to confuse the Yenisei ,their impact is blocked by remote posts. It takes only five minutes to bring the radar to full combat readiness.

    Most of the characteristics of this radar station, which in the future should become the "eyes" of the promising S-500 Prometheus air defense system, still remains classified. Suffice it to say that the only time it appeared in public was in April 2018 during an exercise in the Astrakhan region, and since then there has been no news about the development.

    Source: https://sdelanounas.ru/blogs/141947/
    S-300P/400 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3 - Page 34 F_dg9w10

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    Post  joker88 Sun Jun 20, 2021 11:30 pm

    https://twitter.com/benreuter_IMINT/status/1406633815917932545?s=19
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    Post  GarryB Mon Jun 21, 2021 8:22 am

    It is a forum rule that posting links on their own is not allowed.

    Please include a summary of what a user would expect to see if they click on that link.

    Also it is a forum rule for members to post an introduction in the introduction section.

    We don't need your life history but just a hello and perhaps a little bit of information about you would be fine.

    While there please take the time to read a few other introductions to see what is expected, and also in that section to read the rules for this forum.

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    Post  jhelb Mon Jun 21, 2021 9:41 am

    Russian_Patriot_ wrote:One of the key features of the Yenisei, in contrast to the standard radar of the S-400 Triumph complex, is the ability to work continuously for a long time and in automatic mode. Therefore, now the Yenisei radar has also been used as part of the S-400, along with the 96L6 all-altitude detector, in order to increase the efficiency of the complex.
    russia Nice! Hoping the existing S-400s radar are replaced by the Yenisei.

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    Post  thegopnik Mon Jun 21, 2021 8:42 pm

    Still belongs in this thread because of company being mentioned.

    https://ruselectronics.ru/news/22887-roselektronika-postavila-sverkhmoshchnoe-svch-oborudovanie-dlya-izmeritelnogo-kompleksa-/

    Roselectronica Holding Rostec State Corporation has supplied almaz-Antey vs. Almaz-Antey Concern with a super-powerful microwave module for use as part of a multifunctional measuring complex. The equipment is used to measure basic electrodynamic characteristics, in particular to determine the effective scattering area of air and ground equipment.

    The range microwave module is designed to form probing pulse signals of a given amplitude and a certain frequency of follow. The device is used as part of a measuring complex, which works on the principle of radar. The manufactured module has no analogues in the power of the microwave signal and provides an increased working radius of the measuring complex. The device also has control software, frequency meter and self-made power meter. The equipment has a high efficiency, compactness and usability.

    The product was designed and manufactured by the Ferrit-Domen Research Institute (part of Roselectronics) according to the technical requirements of the customer - AO CNIRTI by A.I. Berg (part of the Almaz-Antey Concern).

    "Engineers of the Ferrit-Domen Research Institute managed to create an unparalleled microwave device in record time. As a result of the project, our company has expanded its competence in the development and production of civilian electronic products with the acceptance of OTC. We expect that the successful experience of cooperation with one of the leading enterprises of Almaz-Antey Concern will allow the institute to become a reliable supplier of microwave modules for measuring equipment. Currently, work is already underway to conclude a new contract for the supply of a different type of microwave module next year," said Aikaz Ohanesian, Deputy Director General for Civil Products at the Ferrit-Domen Research Institute.

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    Post  GarryB Tue Jun 22, 2021 1:45 am

    It is not just missiles and radars that form S-300 and S-400 batteries, there are also all sorts of other support equipment that is critical to its performance... force multipliers if you will that can jam or distract those trying to deal with said batteries with jammers and decoys and other equipment.

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    Post  Sujoy Thu Jun 24, 2021 8:04 am

    Guys, as you people are aware of that the Indian Air Force team that will operate the S-400 is undergoing training in Russia. I'm reading some reports that suggests that the 77N6-N and the 77N6-NI missiles meant for the S-500 has also been offered to India.

    Is there any truth to this report? I was of the opinion that the size of launch tubes vary between S-400 & S-500 so missiles meant for S-500 won't fit in the S-400.

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    Post  LMFS Thu Jun 24, 2021 8:53 am

    Sujoy wrote:Guys, as you people are aware of that the Indian Air Force team that will operate the S-400 is undergoing training in Russia. I'm reading some reports that suggests that the  77N6-N and the 77N6-NI missiles meant for the S-500 has also been offered to India.

    Is there any truth to this report? I was of the opinion that the size of launch tubes vary between S-400 & S-500 so missiles meant for S-500 won't fit in the S-400.

    I would not trust such reports. And of course Russia will not sell such system or its missiles for many years
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    Post  Sujoy Thu Jun 24, 2021 9:11 am

    LMFS wrote:I would not trust such reports. And of course Russia will not sell such system or its missiles for many years
    Yes possible that someone in India is trying to send a message across to China or Pakistan especially the former now that they are placing S-400 on the border with India.

    https://www.hindustantimes.com/analysis/chinese-s-400-systems-across-lac-forces-india-to-rethink-air-defence-101624417959950.html

    But that aside, purely from a technical point of view - is it possible to fit 77N6-N and the 77N6-NI missiles into the S-400 launch tubes?

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    Post  Russian_Patriot_ Fri Jun 25, 2021 8:12 am

    The FSMTC said that Russia is ready to supply S-400 to Belarus. 

    Russia is ready to consider the issue of supplying S-400 anti-aircraft missile systems and Pantsir-S1 anti-aircraft missile and gun systems to Belarus with a corresponding request from Minsk. This was stated to journalists on Thursday during the MILEX-2021 arms exhibition by First Deputy Director of the Federal Service for Military-Technical Cooperation of the Russian Federation Andrey Boytsov.

    "We are in close contact with our Belarusian colleagues on all issues in the field of military-technical cooperation, and if an appropriate request is received for the supply of S-400 and Pantsir-S1 air defense systems, such an issue will be worked out as soon as possible" he said.

    Earlier, Igor Golub, Commander of the Air Force and Air Defense Forces of the Armed Forces of Belarus, said that pre-contract work is underway to re-equip anti-aircraft missile divisions armed with S-300s with new S-400 and Pantsir-S complexes.

    Belarus is also interested in Russian air defense systems and combat aircraft, Boitsov said.

    "We can safely say that Belarus is interested in a wide range of our military products, and in general, cooperation between our countries in the field of military-technical cooperation is dynamic. The most popular categories of military products by the Belarusian side are aviation equipment, air defense systems and armored vehicles" he said.

    Boytsov also stressed that cooperation between Moscow and Minsk has positive dynamics and real prospects for further development. 

    Source: https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/11742979
    S-300P/400 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3 - Page 34 4vl5gx10

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    Post  miketheterrible Thu Jul 08, 2021 11:23 am

    https://sdelanounas.ru/blogs/142250/

    S-500 air defense system successfully passed missile launch tests

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    Post  LMFS Thu Jul 08, 2021 12:08 pm

    From the original interview:

    The S-500 Prometheus anti-aircraft missile system is being developed by Almaz – Antey Concern of East Kazakhstan Region as a new generation of anti-aircraft missile systems, which will apply the principle of separately solving the tasks of destroying ballistic and aerodynamic targets.
    The main task of the complex is to destroy intermediate-range ballistic missiles and, if necessary, intercontinental ballistic missiles in the final section of their flight path.
    In addition, the S-500 is capable of destroying hypersonic aircraft, aircraft and unmanned aerial vehicles.
    The characteristics inherent in the S-500 air defense system, which make it possible to destroy, in addition to aerodynamic and ballistic targets, hypersonic weapons of all modifications, including in near space, allow us to say with confidence that there are simply no analogues of this system.
    Currently, a number of tests have been conducted with live launches of anti-aircraft guided missiles at air targets. All tests were completed with a positive result.


    http://redstar.ru/nashe-nebo-nadyozhno-zashhishheno/

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    Post  AirCombatSim Tue Jul 13, 2021 10:22 pm

    Would the cost of bringing the SA500 on board require them to relook at the costs of maintaining the older SA10/SA12 systems? Could those older systems be resold to an ally?
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    Post  franco Tue Jul 13, 2021 10:45 pm

    AirCombatSim wrote:Would the cost of bringing the SA500 on board require them to relook at the costs of maintaining the older SA10/SA12 systems?  Could those older systems be resold to an ally?

    The S-300PM's are being upgraded to some compatibility with the S-400 while the S-300PS's will be retired or given to allies. The S-300V's are being upgraded to S-300VM4's.

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    Post  Isos Tue Jul 13, 2021 11:43 pm

    AirCombatSim wrote:Would the cost of bringing the SA500 on board require them to relook at the costs of maintaining the older SA10/SA12 systems?  Could those older systems be resold to an ally?

    Older systems use older stuff that is not really produced anymore.

    Upgrading them to S-400 level is just as expensive as buying a new system since pretty much everything needs to be upgraded inside. At the end only the truck could stay the same but that would be an old plateform.

    And missiles have a limit date so after some point you either need to upgrade them or remove them and buy new ones.

    For smaller systems it's worth modernizing them because it can be cheap but for big systems not really. You would prefere to have new S-400.
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    Post  lyle6 Wed Jul 14, 2021 1:25 am

    Isos wrote:
    Older systems use older stuff that is not really produced anymore.

    Upgrading them to S-400 level is just as expensive as buying a new system since pretty much everything needs to be upgraded inside. At the end only the truck could stay the same but that would be an old plateform.

    And missiles have a limit date so after some point you either need to upgrade them or remove them and buy new ones.

    For smaller systems it's worth modernizing them because it can be cheap but for big systems not really. You would prefere to have new S-400.

    The opposite really. Its the larger stuff tends to have a greater scope for modernization since they have lots of "fat" that can be trimmed down and a multitude of elements that could be refined further to collectively improve performance. In fact, the biggest step change of Russian SAMs compared to their Soviet iterations is the modern electronic base. Suddenly everything has much tighter ECCM, system reaction times have grown leaps, and interceptors could connect with their targets at further ranges since the guidance computer can calculate much more effective trajectories for their interceptors to follow. They simply replaced the antiquated Soviet electronics, and boom.

    Even if it costs a lot, the potential of getting S-400 level performance out of obsolescent equipment is not to be dismissed.

    And the upgrade likely wouldn't cost as much, considering the extended commonality between the S-400 and the S-300PM series. Fun fact, the term S-400 is marketing; it was originally S-300PMU2, but S-400 probably rolled better on the tongue. Updating the electronics base would definitely be expensive, but then again, you only really need to update specific components like the radar processing computers and that would be enough to bring it to speed. Plus the logistics for at least the automotive base are already bought and paid for, so that already takes care of much of the operating cost for the system.

    Another thing to consider is when refurbishing stuff they wouldn't really throw the old stuff to the dumps just yet. Instead what happens is the replaced components typically gets sent to a warehouse to be used as spare parts - or even retrofitted to the oldest stuff in the reserve so its not as hopelessly out of date.
    Isos
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    Post  Isos Wed Jul 14, 2021 11:28 am

    Well no it's the opposite since Russia is upgrading its old smaller systems like tunguska or Osa systems and replacing its S-300 with S-400.

    They have now some 80 S-400.
    franco
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    Post  franco Wed Jul 14, 2021 11:42 am

    Isos wrote:Well no it's the opposite since Russia is upgrading its old smaller systems like tunguska or Osa systems and replacing its S-300 with S-400.

    They have now some 80 S-400.

    80 TEL's or battalions?

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