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    S-300/400 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Isos
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    Post  Isos on Mon Dec 28, 2020 11:02 pm

    Any system has strong and weak points. Azeri exploited them. They also operate Osa and igla 10 so it's not a surprise that they could destroy them effectively. They trained against their own systems.

    Armenians bought everything they could with no strategy thinking they are better with nothing to backup that claim.

    A smart opponent will always win against a well armed but stupid one. A bit like israeli won against arabs in 6 days.

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    Post  medo on Tue Dec 29, 2020 10:45 am

    Isos wrote:Any system has strong and weak points. Azeri exploited them. They also operate Osa and igla 10 so it's not a surprise that they could destroy them effectively. They trained against their own systems.

    Armenians bought everything they could with no strategy thinking they are better with nothing to backup that claim.

    A smart opponent will always win against a well armed but stupid one. A bit like israeli won against arabs in 6 days.

    Problem of Armenians in Artsakh was not in weapons, neither in soldiers. Problem was in betrayal of Pashinyan and his cronies. They gave to the Turks and Azeris all defense plans and Pashinyan did the best he could to leave soldiers in Artsakh without commanding structure. He didn't allow even retired oficers and generals, who were veterans from the first war to go there to help them. They also kill or try to kill competent generals in Artsakh like placing a bomb in a car of Artsakh defense minister, although they later talk it was drone attack.

    In the circumstances in which Artsakh defense find itself, they made incredible job. They defend Artsakh for more than 40 days untill Russian army come in and stop the war. They succede in their defense and actually win the war. Russia is now inside and Artsakh will never be part of Azerbaijan.

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    Post  ahmedfire on Tue Dec 29, 2020 7:57 pm

    GarryB wrote:If Turkey can walk through Russian Air Defence systems so easily then why do Israeli F-35s not fly freely over Syrian airspace?

    Why does America refuse to allow Turkish F-35s fly in airspace with Turkish S-400s?

    Why is Turkey buying more S-400s?

    The situation in NK with Azerbaijani forces is comparable to Houtie forces in Saudi Arabian airspace... it can be amusing but it is not totally relevant in any other situation because these situations involve some very specific fuckups that are not relevant to other users.

    Turkey has no much experience about AD . For a long time the best system they have was the Hawk ,till they got S-400 .

    In the first 30 minutes of 1973 war , Egypt destroyed ten sites of Israeli Hawks ,it doesn't mean the system is bad but it wasn't enough to counter the attack from 220 aircraft .

    Turkey didn't win a real war ,in Libya Haftar lost some cities on the west because he can't secure his supplies routes that were too long to the east , also he has not that professional army and inspite of that he shoot down most of Turkish drones and controlled the oil fields till now and put his conditions to open a separate abroad bank account for the oil revenues ,something that GNA can't control alone .

    Fighting in a broken countries is not something to be proud with ,they should try a real war not hunting some groups with stupid drones .



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    Post  PhSt on Wed Dec 30, 2020 5:09 am

    The S-500 anti-aircraft missile system will be adopted in Russia in 2021

    MOSCOW, December 30. / TASS /. Russia plans to complete tests of the S-500 missile system and take it into service in 2021. This was announced by Deputy Defense Minister Alexei Krivoruchko in an interview with the newspaper Krasnaya Zvezda , published on Wednesday.

    "Next year, it is planned to complete tests and adopt the S-500 anti-aircraft missile system and the Voronezh meter-range radar station," Krivoruchko said.

    Earlier, he reported that the start of serial deliveries of the S-500 is scheduled for 2025.

    The Western press noted that during testing, the new Russian system was able to hit a target at a range of 481.2 km, which is 80 km further than any existing air defense system.

    In August, at the Army-2020 forum, the general designer of the missile attack warning system, general director of the Vympel IAC, Sergei Boev, said that the program for the construction of the Voronezh radar station in Crimea was being defended of a draft design.

    Voronezh-SM is a promising station of the latest generation with high target detection accuracy. The index means the wavelength at which the station works: CM - centimeter. A centimeter-range radar is capable of collecting maximum information about any target that falls within the coverage area.

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    Post  Vann7 on Wed Dec 30, 2020 7:04 am

    GarryB wrote:If Turkey can walk through Russian Air Defence systems so easily then why do Israeli F-35s not fly freely over Syrian airspace?

    Why does America refuse to allow Turkish F-35s fly in airspace with Turkish S-400s?

    Why is Turkey buying more S-400s?

    The situation in NK with Azerbaijani forces is comparable to Houtie forces in Saudi Arabian airspace... it can be amusing but it is not totally relevant in any other situation because these situations involve some very specific fuckups that are not relevant to other users.






    If Turkey can walk through Russian Air Defence systems so easily then why do Israeli F-35s not fly freely over Syrian airspace?


    easy.
    Because there is no need for it , their long range missiles with camera are reaching their targets just fine , it will be like saying , if american military is so powerful , why they need long range weapons and sniper rifles. Stand off weapons ,give an extra advantage of significantly reduce any lucky hit
    by the enemy ,by keeping their planes away of enemy air space ,while at same time bombing with precision any place they desire. The times of having to fly right above their targets to hit anything with precision are over , that was during the 90s and earlier. So stealth in combination with stand off weapons give them several more extra layers of security , that they better have than not.


    Why does America refuse to allow Turkish F-35s fly in airspace with Turkish S-400s?

    They even have explained why . because they are afraid Russia/Turkey could spy on F-35 electronics and electronic warfare and use that information to know how to hack their planes radars and sensors
    also helps them spy them better their signals across the entire spectrum ,including thermal heat signature and develop better air defenses in future.


    Why is Turkey buying more S-400s?

    To defend against manned big planes at super long ranges ,and cruise missiles and ballistic too ,and
    some attacks with drones , can be used against high altitude drones ,like global hawk drones ,or AWACS ,that short range defenses can't reach. but s-400s were never designed to target swarm of micro drones . sadly it wasn't for that.. neither s-300s. it will be like targeting swarm of thousands of birds with a sniper rifle. To bring down many small birds ,a shotgun ,something that produce bigger area damage is need.

    The situation in armenia is no a lot different from syria ,when it comes to defense , actually armenia
    had better air defenses than syria all the time and in bigger numbers and still failed. just yesterday
    israel attacked AGAIN Syria ,for the 12323434435454x time , they have said have bombed syria successful more than 2,000 times since they began their attacks.. and those s-300s were reported to be used by syrian government and guess what ? Israel airforce still managed to bomb syria and kill and wound syrian soldiers and leave unharmed and untouched . No

    So those modernized s-300s are not even that good against regular missiles , so russia have been
    advertising castles in the air of defense that didn't exist. The true performance of Russian air defenses combined , when using s-300s ,pantirs and buks , seems to be 55% efficiency. so a little bit better than half of missile attacks intercepted.. which might sound good on paper , but it is terrible in practice if for example those israeli missile attacks was done with missiles armed with nukes ,or biological or chemical weapons it will have been a major disaster and Russia forced to flee from syria .


    In summary , im not saying s-400s and all other russia rocket based air defenses are completely useless , only that they are already showing that are becoming close to obsolete as main weapons of air defenses.. and the armenian war is a wake up call for the russian military of how outdated are their tactics of defenses.. it was painful to watch those s-300s , their radars , tors and pantsir to be
    hit again and again and again and fully recorded in video to add more insult. showing not even russia
    electronic warfare was working ,allowing communications to happen between drones and their operators in azerbaijan and turkey. Russia military was caught with pants down and it was not until
    2019 military exercises , that russia military began to include swarm of drones attacks , so this is what? 10 years delayed trainning? they should have been testing this kind of war tactics 15 years ago and not now. No Israel have loitering munition like IAI Harop since 2007 at least in service .


    from wikipedia...
    In August 2007, the government of India was negotiating to purchase eight to ten Harop systems.[3] In September 2009, the Indian Air Force announced that it will be inducting the Harop systems purchased for US$100 million "for up to 10 drones".[8

    Whats what's wrong with the Ruskies? why they did not trained against this kind of warfare attacks?
    is like the entire military is run by morons , generals no different than their president . If i was the one in charge of military , i will not be showing out enemies in youtube videos ,how our military train ,to teach them our tactics. No and our limitations , ie.. how we don't train. all this dueling non sense of artillery vs artillery will only happen against alqaeda and isis , that is not a true army but mercenaries. But against NATO ,Russia got a small little taste of how badly ill prepared they are
    to fight versus NATO and Israel . If it wasn't by those nuclear weapon inventory Russia have ,i have no doubts russia military will have been over run in armenia and syria long time ago. and Cuba and venezuela fully invaded and russia had to look to the other side.

    So if i was putin ,i will have fired all the generals in charge of defending Armenia and the russian
    military in armenia , and resign himself too for incompetent and leave that position of president.
    Because the modernization of the russian military have a major black hole , a major weakness
    in their defense of airspace and this was a third world nation who did it ..armed with nato and israel weapons.

    S-400s and s-300s and pantsirs and torns as it is now are completely useless versus a modern war versus Israel and NATO , if they use heavy use of drones to overwhelm Russia air defenses.. and heavy use of glide gravity weapons too ,that all russian defenses shows problem in intercepting .
    Everywhere on the internet there are news of Turkey preparing a new war , idlib 2.0 , using the same drones combined with loitering munition tactics from israel. And don't be surprised if russia performance is terrible again.. just don't blame the syrian army ,for failing ,as you did to Armenia ,
    giving a free pass to Russian military failure in protecting their allies.

    S-400s and s-300s could remain revelant only if russia manage to deploy modern anti air artillery
    like rail guns ,lasers and other energy weapons , but also 57mm artillery in big numbers deployed.
    to target mass waves of drones attacks ,you need area destruction explosive ,exploding in the air or energy guns with non limited rounds.



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    Post  TMA1 on Wed Dec 30, 2020 7:14 am

    the No emoji use is particularly amusing. upvoted.
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    Post  calripson on Thu Dec 31, 2020 2:30 am

    Vann7 wrote:
    GarryB wrote:If Turkey can walk through Russian Air Defence systems so easily then why do Israeli F-35s not fly freely over Syrian airspace?

    Why does America refuse to allow Turkish F-35s fly in airspace with Turkish S-400s?

    Why is Turkey buying more S-400s?

    The situation in NK with Azerbaijani forces is comparable to Houtie forces in Saudi Arabian airspace... it can be amusing but it is not totally relevant in any other situation because these situations involve some very specific fuckups that are not relevant to other users.






    If Turkey can walk through Russian Air Defence systems so easily then why do Israeli F-35s not fly freely over Syrian airspace?


    As I have said again and again, it is not Russian air defense that NATO or Israel fear - it is Russia's ability to counterstrike and NATO and Israeli air defense will be even less effective against those counterstrikes. No one is worried about Armenia or Syria's counterstrike ability. NATO and Israeli always gauge not Russia's ability but its willingness to use those weapons. Russia's motto should be "Right back at ya!"

    easy.
    Because there is no need for it , their long range missiles with camera are reaching their targets just fine , it will be like saying , if american military is so powerful , why they need long range weapons and sniper rifles. Stand off weapons ,give an extra advantage of significantly reduce any lucky hit
    by the enemy ,by keeping their planes away of enemy air space ,while at same time bombing with precision any place they desire. The times of having to fly right above their targets to hit anything with precision are over , that was during the 90s and earlier. So stealth in combination with stand off weapons give them several more extra layers of security , that they better have than not.


    Why does America refuse to allow Turkish F-35s fly in airspace with Turkish S-400s?

    They even have explained why . because they are afraid Russia/Turkey could spy on F-35 electronics and electronic warfare and use that information to know how to hack their planes radars and sensors
    also helps them spy them better their signals across the entire spectrum ,including thermal heat signature and develop better air defenses in future.


    Why is Turkey buying more S-400s?

    To defend against manned big planes at super long ranges ,and cruise missiles and ballistic too ,and
    some attacks with drones , can be used against high altitude drones ,like global hawk drones ,or AWACS ,that short range defenses can't reach. but s-400s were never designed to target swarm of micro drones . sadly it wasn't for that.. neither s-300s. it will be like targeting swarm of thousands of birds with a sniper rifle. To bring down many small birds ,a shotgun ,something that produce bigger area damage is need.

    The situation in armenia is no a lot different from syria ,when it comes to defense  , actually armenia
    had better air defenses than syria all the time and in bigger numbers and still failed.  just yesterday
    israel attacked AGAIN Syria ,for the 12323434435454x time  , they have said have bombed syria successful more than 2,000 times since they began their attacks..  and those s-300s were reported to be used by syrian government and guess what ? Israel airforce still managed to bomb syria and kill and wound syrian soldiers and leave unharmed and untouched . No

    So those modernized s-300s are not even that good against regular missiles , so russia have been
    advertising castles in the air of defense that didn't exist. The true performance of Russian air defenses combined , when using s-300s ,pantirs and buks , seems to be 55% efficiency. so a little bit better than half of missile attacks intercepted.. which might sound good on paper , but it is terrible in practice if for example those israeli missile attacks was done with missiles armed with nukes ,or biological or chemical weapons it will have been a major disaster and Russia forced to flee from syria .


    In summary , im not saying s-400s and all other russia rocket based air defenses are completely useless , only that they are already showing that are becoming close to obsolete as main weapons of air defenses.. and the armenian war is a wake up call for the russian military of how outdated are their tactics of defenses.. it was painful to watch those s-300s , their radars , tors and pantsir to be
    hit again and again and again and fully recorded in video to add more insult. showing not even russia
    electronic warfare was working ,allowing communications to happen between drones and their operators in azerbaijan and turkey. Russia military was caught with pants down and it was not until
    2019 military exercises , that russia military  began to include swarm of drones attacks , so this is what? 10 years delayed trainning? they should have been testing this kind of war tactics 15 years ago and not now. No   Israel have loitering munition like IAI Harop since 2007 at least in service .


    from wikipedia...
    In August 2007, the government of India was negotiating to purchase eight to ten Harop systems.[3] In September 2009, the Indian Air Force announced that it will be inducting the Harop systems purchased for US$100 million "for up to 10 drones".[8

    Whats what's wrong with the Ruskies? why they did not trained against this kind of warfare attacks?
    is like the entire military is run by morons , generals no different than their president . If i was the one in charge of military , i will not be showing out enemies in youtube videos ,how our military train ,to teach them our tactics. No and our limitations , ie.. how we don't train. all this dueling non sense of artillery vs artillery will only happen against alqaeda and isis , that is not a true army but mercenaries. But against NATO ,Russia got a small  little taste of how badly ill prepared they are
    to fight versus NATO and Israel . If it wasn't by those nuclear weapon inventory Russia have ,i have no doubts russia military will have been over run in armenia and syria long time ago. and Cuba and venezuela fully invaded and russia had to look to the other side.

    So if i was putin ,i will have fired all the generals in charge of defending Armenia and the russian
    military in armenia , and resign himself too for incompetent and leave that position of president.
    Because the modernization of the russian military have a major black hole , a major weakness
    in their defense of airspace and this was a third world nation who did it ..armed with nato and israel weapons.

    S-400s and s-300s and pantsirs and torns as it is now are completely useless versus a modern war versus Israel and NATO , if they use heavy use of drones to overwhelm Russia air defenses.. and heavy use of glide gravity weapons too ,that all russian defenses shows problem in intercepting .
    Everywhere on the internet there are news of Turkey preparing a new war , idlib 2.0 , using the same drones combined with loitering munition tactics from israel. And don't be surprised if russia performance is terrible again.. just don't blame the syrian army ,for failing ,as you did to Armenia ,
    giving a free pass to Russian military failure in protecting their allies.

    S-400s and s-300s could remain revelant only if russia manage to deploy modern anti air artillery
    like rail guns ,lasers and other energy weapons , but also 57mm artillery in big numbers deployed.
    to target mass waves of drones attacks ,you need area destruction explosive ,exploding in the air or energy guns with non limited rounds.



    lyle6
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    Post  lyle6 on Thu Dec 31, 2020 12:14 pm

    Vann7 wrote:

    easy.
    Because there is no need for it , their long range missiles with camera are reaching their targets just fine , it will be like saying , if american military is so powerful , why they need long range weapons and sniper rifles. Stand off weapons ,give an extra advantage of significantly reduce any lucky hit
    by the enemy ,by keeping their planes away of enemy air space ,while at same time bombing with precision any place they desire. The times of having to fly right above their targets to hit anything with precision are over , that was during the 90s and earlier. So stealth in combination with stand off weapons give them several more extra layers of security , that they better have than not.


    Lolwut? There is no need for it? Prior to the S-300 in Syrian hands the Israelis were bombing the Syrians almost every day. Being forced to limit themselves to only using the very expensive and hard to replace stocks of stand-off weaponry significantly curtailed the amount of damage the Israelis could ever inflict on the Syrians in the future compared to what they were doing before.

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    Post  Mindstorm on Thu Dec 31, 2020 12:49 pm

    Vann7 wrote:easy.
    Because there is no need for it , their long range missiles with camera are reaching their targets just fine , it will be like saying , if american military is so powerful , why they need long range weapons and sniper rifles. Stand off weapons ,give an extra advantage of significantly reduce any lucky hit
    by the enemy ,by keeping their planes away of enemy air space ,while at same time bombing with precision any place they desire. The times of having to fly right above their targets to hit anything with precision are over , that was during the 90s and earlier. So stealth in combination with stand off weapons give them several more extra layers of security , that they better have than not.


    Usually i do not waste time in responding to non-senses and/or irrational rantings ,above all if aimed at trigger an emotional response from readers (that is information war 1.0.1 basis) ,but here i find some points that several western operative truly attempt to use to "cover" the absolute irrationality of USA reaction in the Turkey acquisition of C-400.....irrationality and inexplicability only giving for true the veracity of the boasted capabilities of theirs "stealth" aircraft.

    The unique point of integration of high grade "low observability" in aircraft strike platforms (that is a feature, i recall, costing truly epocal amount of money in research and development, production and added complexity and cost to maintenance) is just to allow to western Air Forces to retain a kind of stand-in strike capability that is the unique element capable to provide to them a credible offensive potential against enemy ground forces, time sensitive targets and targets covered by air defenses -in particular the most modern ones- capable to intercept and destroy an absurd amount of precision munitions.

    This necessity arise from the historical wide ground superiority enjoyed by theirs opponents and the equally huge imbalance in air defense potential; those are inbalances that OTAN forces must always attempt to offset, in some way, with the element where they have concentrated wide majority of theirs resources -Air Forces-.

    The rational behind the researches conducted in the US since the '60 years, that became realizeable only much later, after the works of П. Я́. Уфи́мцев (that was long and deeply analised by two scientifical military commissions and rightly allowed for publication ,to the contrary of other three works in the same area at today still covered by State secret) was translated by Lockheed Martin employed, was to allow US aircraft to maintain survivability in penetrative strike against the unbearable grow of the capabilities of enemy air defenses.

    The enormous costs and also low survivability (except for hypersonic ones) of long range stand-off weapons when on the other side are massively operative systems such as Тор-М2 ,Панцирь-С/CM , Бук-M2/M3 and the best EW and area masking and decoy systems on the planet render absolutely mandative the possibility to penetrate and survive in enemy airspace .

    Paradoxically the most paying targets for stand-off weapons are just…..main air bases; in facts a single stand-off missile attack against those targets can produce damages equal to an year of two of aircraft and precise guided munition production of a nation and the same is true for attacks carried out by ВДВ that priorize just air bases
    as the primary goals.

    You could be need hundreds of stand-off missiles to completely saturate and destroy a single battery of Тор-М2 or Панцирь-CM with few EW and masking/decoy equipment support (admitting obviously that, at the arrival of those missiles, the former position of those SAM system would not be completely void) and even in succeeding in this attack you would have caused a damage in the order of 40-45 ml dollars ; an attack with the same number of stand-off missiles against a motionless air base with its motionless weapon depots , motionless air cointrol station, motionless aircraft in the open and in hangars can cause dozen of billions dollars damages .    


    carlripson wrote:They even have explained why . because they are afraid Russia/Turkey could spy on F-35 electronics and electronic warfare and use that information to know how to hack their planes radars and sensors
    also helps them spy them better their signals across the entire spectrum ,including thermal heat signature and develop better air defenses in future.

    This is rich  Laughing  
    It should be the opposite : Federation's authorities should fear that radar portrait of the C-400's radars and a weakness in theirs interceptors could be analised and capitalized by OTAN and in particular US authorities because is the SAM system that must discover and intercept the intruding aircraft and not the contrary .
    Even more the hypotetical incapability of C-400 to detect and/track F-35 could have enormously boosted F-35 export potential outside of the momentarily vassal OTAN nations and ruined completely the export of C-300s and C-400s on the world market, one of the main objectives of US offensive against the Federatation.

    As said the US could organize a demonstration to persuade Turkey to abandon Federation's junk with literally ZERO RISKS for them (obviously ONLY if what they have declared in all those years is TRUE and not theirs historical garbage sold as gold) at example: a group of 4 F-35 without emitting a single radar wave go through a zone protected by C-400 to attack targets placed behind this area.

    If the "stealth" of F-35 work as advertised the F-35 go through and over the footprint area of C-400 division and deliver its internal JDAMs on the mock targets (detected even only with purely passive EOTS so to eliminate another possible ridiculous motivation for excuses) without that the Turkey defense forces would even be aware that something was happening.
    At this point US would have persuaded Turkey , without suffering dozen of billions dollars damages to the program and without risk to lose  the by far most important OTAN member in the Middle East and Back Sea area and even more would have ruined the market at planetary level for Алмаз - Антей.

    Zero risks and also possibility to record radar emissions of C-400.

    Reality ,much more trivially , is that US have seen in Syria theirs F-22s, in complete low observable configuration, detected and tracked by Federation advanced C-300 and C-400 radars in peace-time mode at hundreds of km of distance (and ironically those air defense systems also guided, in pair of instances, Су-35С behind Raptors for simulate attacks using only with олс-35 remaining totally undetectable to them).

    Since then and even more after the President presentation of new generation of weaponry the US has begun this messy ,rushed retreat from any weapon control treaty hoping to compensate with what remain of theirs weaking influence on theirs vassal allies at OTAN and CAATSA sanctions for military obsolescence.  

    carlipson wrote:actually armenia
    had better air defenses than syria all the time and in bigger numbers and still failed.  just yesterday
    israel attacked AGAIN Syria ,for the 12323434435454x time  , they have said have bombed syria successful more than 2,000 times since they began their attacks..  and those s-300s were reported to be used by syrian government and guess what ? Israel airforce still managed to bomb syria and kill and wound syrian soldiers and leave unharmed and untouched . No

    Do you have seen a conflict of Azerbaijan with Armenia ? When ? And you have seen Armenian divisions penetrating and attacking against the Azerbijani forces operating in the NK area ? When ?

    This was a conflict between a relatively rich nation of 10 ml people with exernal support of a powerful nation against the self defense forces of a self-proclaimed republic of 145.000 people having on theirs side only defense positions and some mountains ….actually the Azerbaijani forces ,included theirs UAV fleet suffered disproportionately huge losses that would have lead to a catastrophic defeat would the adversary being even only slightly bigger of better armed.

    About Israel ,and in particular IAF, theirs situation in Syria in spite of all the specific local advantages they historically enjoy ,in particular an extensive network of HUMINT and paid traitors among syrian military operatives and a foreign forces fueled civil war burning since 7 years from now, became truly desperate.

    IAF since at least three years has been forced, by the presence of few batteries of export version of up to date SAMs and modernized soviet era air defense at employ exclusively stand-off weapons in this way spending to attack and damage/destroy a target (when this happen ...and it appear that on average less than one on four of the initially intended targets in each IAF mission is being effectively struck) more than an order of magnitude greater than the targets itself.  
    This factor by itself would lead to a crushing military defeat against any enemy with even one quarter-one fifth of Isreali financiary and military production potential.


    At the moment almost all theirs military research centers and military thinkers are working on a way out of this deadlock situation.

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    Post  Arrow on Sat Jan 02, 2021 11:17 am

    [quote="Mindstorm"]
    Vann7 wrote:


    (that was long and deeply analised by two scientifical military commissions and rightly allowed for publication ,to the contrary of other three works in the same area at today still covered by State secret)

    Mindstorm it is very interesting what can still be hidden from Ufimcev's work on stealth technology. However, some of his works, which were published in the book, were not fully rightly disclosed. They helped a lot to develop stealth technologies in the USA.
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    Post  GarryB on Mon Jan 04, 2021 12:52 pm

    easy.
    Because there is no need for it , their long range missiles with camera are reaching their targets just fine , it will be like saying , if american military is so powerful , why they need long range weapons and sniper rifles. Stand off weapons ,give an extra advantage of significantly reduce any lucky hit
    by the enemy ,by keeping their planes away of enemy air space ,while at same time bombing with precision any place they desire. The times of having to fly right above their targets to hit anything with precision are over , that was during the 90s and earlier. So stealth in combination with stand off weapons give them several more extra layers of security , that they better have than not.

    But the F-35 is invisible and invincible and should be able to save money by flying one at a time over Syria without needing any support aircraft dropping cheap bombs to destroy targets accurately... those Russian radars wont even know they are there... except we have already heard they can detect F-35s from thousands of kms away...

    The F-35 is supposed to be 10 different flying super computers with the best electronic systems on the planet... surely the opposite is true... the US should be desperate to get the F-35 into airspace covered by the S-400 so it can analyse its signals and transmissions so they can learn to kill it... except there is no mention of this at all...

    They even have explained why . because they are afraid Russia/Turkey could spy on F-35 electronics and electronic warfare and use that information to know how to hack their planes radars and sensors
    also helps them spy them better their signals across the entire spectrum ,including thermal heat signature and develop better air defenses in future.

    Duh... why would Turkey allow that to happen... Turkey was buying 100 F-35s... worth billions of dollars... why would they compromise their own new Stealth fighter to the Russians... that is just stupid. And if Russia can do this without Turkey noticing then F-35s can't be flown within 5,000km of Russia, or radar in Russia will detect HATO operated F-35s and detect their radar and IR signatures...

    but s-400s were never designed to target swarm of micro drones . sadly it wasn't for that.. neither s-300s.

    There is no western SAM system that can defend against micro drone swarms either... but it is OK because micro drone swarms only exist in theory anyway.

    it will be like targeting swarm of thousands of birds with a sniper rifle. To bring down many small birds ,a shotgun ,something that produce bigger area damage is need.

    Except Russia is not some redneck hick... when they see a swarm of micro drones approaching from Poland or a Baltic state a tactical nuclear strike should wipe out the entire cloud in one shot.... then a few missiles directed at the source countries those drones were launched from to finish the job and problem solved.

    actually armenia
    had better air defenses than syria all the time and in bigger numbers and still failed

    Bullshit. You are asserting that Armenia has better air defence systems and in larger numbers than Syria... prove it. List them.

    just yesterday
    israel attacked AGAIN Syria ,

    Israel are showing just how weak they actually are... all their technology and power and their pin prick attacks and murders are pathetic...

    So those modernized s-300s are not even that good against regular missiles , so russia have been
    advertising castles in the air of defense that didn't exist.

    In service since the 1970s, and the ones in service in HATO countries are still kicking ass in exercises...

    The true performance of Russian air defenses combined , when using s-300s ,pantirs and buks , seems to be 55% efficiency. so a little bit better than half of missile attacks intercepted.. which might sound good on paper , but it is terrible in practice if for example those israeli missile attacks was done with missiles armed with nukes ,or biological or chemical weapons it will have been a major disaster and Russia forced to flee from syria .

    Performance of Patriot and western systems in Saudi Arabia has been zero.

    Performance of Russian systems in Syria seems very close to 95%.

    In summary , im not saying s-400s and all other russia rocket based air defenses are completely useless ,

    You might as well make that claim... the US might start paying you...

    Israel have loitering munition like IAI Harop since 2007 at least in service .

    One ICBM and Israel is gone... their collection of murder robots to kill people in neighbouring countries means nothing to Russia.

    Because the modernization of the russian military have a major black hole , a major weakness
    in their defense of airspace and this was a third world nation who did it ..armed with nato and israel weapons.

    HATO has no IADS, just like NK didn't and that is why they were taken down so easily.

    The fact that you think Russia is vulnerable to attack is just you projecting the wests terrible vulnerability to just subsonic cruise missile attack... now it is compounded with the new hypersonic threat and you talk about drone swarms that don't exist in operational service anywhere at a time when the solutions are entering Russian service is hilarious.

    Everywhere on the internet there are news of Turkey preparing a new war , idlib 2.0 , using the same drones combined with loitering munition tactics from israel. And don't be surprised if russia performance is terrible again.. just don't blame the syrian army ,for failing ,as you did to Armenia ,
    giving a free pass to Russian military failure in protecting their allies.

    Would love for them to start Idlib 2 supporting their child beheading censored ... that is a brilliant idea... will give the Russians an ideal opportunity to test more new weapons and some old ones too...

    And rid the world of more scum the west is so keen to support and fund.

    S-400s and s-300s could remain revelant only if russia manage to deploy modern anti air artillery
    like rail guns ,lasers and other energy weapons , but also 57mm artillery in big numbers deployed.
    to target mass waves of drones attacks ,you need area destruction explosive ,exploding in the air or energy guns with non limited rounds.

    I understand you don't know what you are talking about... get rid of S-400s because the west is talking about the idea of drone swarms that it would be unsuitable to use against.... but then how effective would 57mm cannon shells be against B-52s and B-1Bs?

    Russia would piss away trillions of dollars making super weapons that never actually work properly... but they would be front page on Popular Mechanic for the whole year... interesting that your pathological hatred for Putin has now spread to any Russian hardware that does not instantly work perfectly and kill all enemies no matter who or where they are...

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    Post  RTN on Tue Jan 05, 2021 6:50 pm

    GarryB wrote: But the F-35 is invisible and invincible and should be able to save money by flying one at a time over Syria without needing any support aircraft dropping cheap bombs to destroy targets accurately... those Russian radars wont even know they are there... except we have already heard they can detect F-35s from thousands of kms away...
    And why will we operate F-35 in that manner? Instead, US will be using an "arsenal ship" such as an F-15, to lug long-range missiles into a position well behind a flight of F-35 fighters operating along or beyond the forward edges of the enemy's airspace, and using their sensor "picture" for providing targeting for these weapons via data-link. The long-range air-to-air missile would then be launched remotely by the F-15 operating in safer airspace, with the networked weapon flying to a high altitude while being fed targeting updates from the stealth fighters via data link, before diving down on their targets at high speed.
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    Post  GarryB on Wed Jan 06, 2021 2:06 am

    And why will we operate F-35 in that manner?.

    Dude... that is what it was designed to do. It was supposed to be a stealthy invisible bomb truck that flew over S-300 batteries and later revised to S-400 batteries and cheaply drop bombs on these air defence systems to clear the way for conventional fighters.

    Instead, US will be using an "arsenal ship" such as an F-15, to lug long-range missiles into a position well behind a flight of F-35 fighters operating along or beyond the forward edges of the enemy's airspace, and using their sensor "picture" for providing targeting for these weapons via data-link.

    Arsenal fighters and arsenal drones only became a thing when it was realised how many air defence systems the Russians actually have and how few weapons you can fit on F-35s and F-22s.

    There was no point in having super stealth and super sensors and electronics if you spent most of your flight time flying to the combat area expending weapons very quickly and then having the fly back to base to rearm.

    The long-range air-to-air missile would then be launched remotely by the F-15 operating in safer airspace, with the networked weapon flying to a high altitude while being fed targeting updates from the stealth fighters via data link, before diving down on their targets at high speed.

    Except that airspace is not safer with Russian fighters using R-37M missiles and its new longer ranged replacement... America is copying Russia... F-15s instead of MiG-31s and Su-35s and MiG-35s, except that Su-57 is better than F-35 and Su-35 seems better optimised to target stealthy enemy fighters too with its R-27 IR guided missiles and R-37M long range missiles and of course other new models being developed for the Su-57 and LMFS programme...

    The concept of F-35s penetrating enemy airspace only works if the enemy can't detect and track the F-35s and the Russian radars were detecting F-35s on the border with Iran from Russian territory... which suggests when operating on the edge of Russian airspace they are quickly going to be eliminated... which will leave F-15s... which creates the obvious question... why fuck around with enormously expensive and fragile and delicate F-35s when you should just dump that piece of shit and make F-15s in large numbers.

    You could probably just build the F-35 as an unmanned drone... take out all the bits for the pilot and the weapons bays and use it as a recon drone... against most countries it will be effective, but expect a lot to be shot down over Russia... but then a conflict with Russia is not going to be decided with fighter planes anyway.


    .... I believe the last words of the nursery rhyme ring a ring a rosie would be most apt.... a tissue a tissue we all fall down... (dead)

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    Post  LMFS on Wed Jan 06, 2021 2:18 am

    The stealth narrative suffered the following transformation during the years:

    "Stealth planes are much cheaper because they can operate unsupported inside IADS" -> "We have new stand-off weapons and autonomous decoys/jammers to make our stealth fleet impervious to the latest advances in A2/AD by our rivals" --> "Let us use low level penetration and hypersonic missiles carried by F-15... and tactical nukes!"

    Very interesting to see how USAF is rediscovering the wheel and still managing to make it look fancy and sophisticated with their funny acronym salads Razz

    As to the stealth planes operating close to the Russian territory using their sensors to guide the other planes... is that a joke?? they will be picked up by OTH before they take off!

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    Post  magnumcromagnon on Wed Jan 06, 2021 2:48 am

    LMFS wrote:As to the stealth planes operating close to the Russian territory using their sensors to guide the other planes... is that a joke?? they will be picked up by OTH before they take off!

    It completely nullifies their stealth fetishism when their uber wunderwaffle stealth fighters are blaring their radars because any proper ELINT/SIGINT platform will easily make a mockery of them just like Autobaza-M made a mockery of the RQ-170 lol! Razz
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    Post  Sujoy on Wed Jan 06, 2021 9:05 am

    GarryB wrote:Except that airspace is not safer with Russian fighters using R-37M missiles and its new longer ranged replacement... America is copying Russia...
    As far as air to air missiles are concerned Americans seem to be in two minds as to what they want from their next long range A2A missile.

    Some within the USAF want a Ramjet powered A2A missile like Meteor whereas others within the USAF want a two stage air to air missile.

    Instead of a RAMJET, a two stage air to air missile could take better advantage of climbing up into the very thin upper atmosphere where friction and drag are minimized, which would result in longer range and enhanced end-game kinematic performance of the payload weapon. A steeper trajectory and higher speed could also make defending against such an attack more troublesome for the enemy.

    Then there is the A2A version of Israel's Stunner missile that has a three-pulse motor that outputs different thrust levels during different portions of its flight profile. The USAF is contemplating arming the F-35 with the Stunner.

    S-300/400 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3 - Page 31 Stunne10

    Stunner, uses three major sensors to guide it toward its target - data link, electro-optical/imaging infrared sensor and a active radar sensor.So it is extremely difficult to jam such an air to air missile.

    Basically USAF, NATO are yet to take a call on what they want in their next air to air missile.



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    Post  LMFS on Wed Jan 06, 2021 12:08 pm

    magnumcromagnon wrote:
    It completely nullifies their stealth fetishism when their uber wunderwaffle stealth fighters are blaring their radars because any proper ELINT/SIGINT platform will easily make a mockery of them just like Autobaza-M made a mockery of the RQ-170 lol! Razz

    I am assuming they are mentally healthy enough to mean passive use of the sensors and not try to BS us with magical thinking about LPI, that would be really too much Laughing
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    Post  kvs on Wed Jan 06, 2021 4:37 pm

    EW is not just jamming.

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    Post  GarryB on Thu Jan 07, 2021 8:51 am


    Instead of a RAMJET, a two stage air to air missile could take better advantage of climbing up into the very thin upper atmosphere where friction and drag are minimized, which would result in longer range and enhanced end-game kinematic performance of the payload weapon.

    Actually a ramjet is always more efficient than a solid fuelled rocket and a ramjet powered missile can also climb to maximise range... it can also manage thrust to optimise fuel use to extend range and allow energy boosts when needed, whereas a rocket is more fixed and rigid when it comes to energy and coasting.

    Of course scramjet propulsion extends the speed potential beyond what rocket motors can provide, with all the advantages of a jet engine too.

    A steeper trajectory and higher speed could also make defending against such an attack more troublesome for the enemy.

    The R-27 missiles already used a steep trajectory in a lofted flight profile to maximise range in the 1980s... not new at all.

    Then there is the A2A version of Israel's Stunner missile that has a three-pulse motor that outputs different thrust levels during different portions of its flight profile. The USAF is contemplating arming the F-35 with the Stunner.

    Yeah, the new R-77 already does that... high energy for launch acceleration and climb, then low energy cruise to target area and then high energy for the terminal phase of the attack... a clunky attempt to get the good features of jet power...

    Stunner, uses three major sensors to guide it toward its target - data link, electro-optical/imaging infrared sensor and a active radar sensor.So it is extremely difficult to jam such an air to air missile.

    Most longer ranged missiles have a datalink cruise phase to the general intercept area where they can start scanning for the target... and active radar is not ideal for low RCS targets and IIR can be dealt with using DIRCMS...

    Of course having the rocket motor running means the ability to turn harder in the terminal attack phase, but still... for every modern attack there is a defence that has been created so even the best AAM is more of a missile than a hittile.
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    Post  Sujoy on Thu Jan 07, 2021 11:42 am

    GarryB wrote: Actually a ramjet is always more efficient than a solid fuelled rocket and a ramjet powered missile can also climb to maximise range... it can also manage thrust to optimise fuel use to extend range and allow energy boosts when needed, whereas a rocket is more fixed and rigid when it comes to energy and coasting.
    Fuel in a ramjet powered air to air missile will last for 60 seconds or less.
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    Post  marcellogo on Thu Jan 07, 2021 10:51 pm

    At parity of external dimension and weight ramjet would always last longer and the more the range, the more the advantage.
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    Post  GarryB on Fri Jan 08, 2021 2:46 am

    Fuel in a ramjet powered air to air missile will last for 60 seconds or less.

    There is more energy in one kg of jet fuel than there is in 1kg of solid rocket fuel because three quarters or 750 grammes is there just to generate massive amounts of oxygen for the 250 grammes of actual fuel to burn... in comparison the fuel for the ramjet or scramjet is 1,000 grammes of fuel and it scoops up the three kilogrammes of air needed to burn that 1kg of fuel from the air as it moves.

    And the fuel in a ramjet can be any amount they want and they can control the throttle and fuel burn and make it last as long as they wish... unlike a solid fuelled rocket that just burns at a fixed rate.

    BTW that three stage rocket fuel missile you were talking about the first stage fuel will be high energy to allow the missile to accelerate and climb but teh second stage fuel will be low energy gas generating fuel that just counters drag and allows the missile to maintain speed better on its way to the target area, while the last stage will be used to attack the target.

    Ramjet powered missiles can have fuel to keep going for tens of minutes... just like the turbojet engines on cruise missiles run for hours... I mean the Kh-102 flys 5,000km at less than 1,000km per hour so it is a two point five ton missile that runs its jet motor for over 5 hours... they could just as easily fit a ramjet motor and have it fly high and gradually accelerate all the way to the target as its power to weight ratio increases...

    At parity of external dimension and weight ramjet would always last longer and the more the range, the more the advantage.

    And the flexibility of being able to control throttle levels means much better fuel use and efficiency and flexibility.

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