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    S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Sun Jul 05, 2020 4:14 am

    Awesome picture... it makes it clear that a tube big enough to carry Rif and Rif-M which are S-300 sized missiles could also carry four S-350 missiles in it the way they are sometimes fitted to S-400 tubes before the S-350 TELs were ready, but it also shows that the S-300V missiles (the two middle vehicles) are both different from the S-300 and S-400 missiles.

    What is not obvious is the other difference... the two outer vehicles are wheeled trucks and the two vehicles in the middle are tracked vehicles like tanks.
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    Post  magnumcromagnon on Sun Jul 05, 2020 4:24 am

    GarryB wrote:Awesome picture... it makes it clear that a tube big enough to carry Rif and Rif-M which are S-300 sized missiles could also carry four S-350 missiles in it the way they are sometimes fitted to S-400 tubes before the S-350 TELs were ready, but it also shows that the S-300V missiles (the two middle vehicles) are both different from the S-300 and S-400 missiles.

    What is not obvious is the other difference... the two outer vehicles are wheeled trucks and the two vehicles in the middle are tracked vehicles like tanks.

    I was also under the impression that the tracked TELs were larger than the wheeled TELs, when it's the opposite actually.
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    Post  Mindstorm on Mon Jul 06, 2020 11:51 am


    Игорь Коротченко say that competitors of C-500 will not appear abroad before 15-20 years and that its maximum altitude of interception will be around 270-300 km


    https://vpk.name/news/416538_ishodya_iz_harakteristik_s-500_ee_budut_primenyat_v_kachestve_elementa_mobilnoi_strategicheskoi_pro.html

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    Post  GarryB on Mon Jul 06, 2020 2:03 pm

    S-500 are anti ICBM systems and technically with a range of more than 500km should not be allowed to be exported under the missile export controls agreements in place.

    Of course that same agreement would prevent the AEGIS Ashore Mk-41 launchers from being deployed to Japan or Europe or anywhere really....
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    Post  magnumcromagnon on Tue Jul 07, 2020 1:38 am

    Mindstorm wrote:
    Игорь Коротченко say that competitors of C-500 will not appear abroad before 15-20 years and that its maximum altitude of interception will be around 270-300 km


    https://vpk.name/news/416538_ishodya_iz_harakteristik_s-500_ee_budut_primenyat_v_kachestve_elementa_mobilnoi_strategicheskoi_pro.htmlhttps://www.gazeta.ru/army/2020/06/19/13123189.shtml

    Today, Russia is engaged in the development of a landfill base in the regions of the country, but this is far from a quick and very costly way.

    While some unresolved technical problems are affecting the Nudoli adoption period, the entry into the S-500 troops is mainly due to the imperfection of the training base.

    “The task of“ shooting off ”this system in full, especially in the near space, and with the corresponding target situation, has yet to be solved. But there are no technological problems associated with the adoption of the S-500. Nevertheless, the receipt of both systems to equip the Russian army in 2021 should be assessed as a period colored by a fair amount of optimism, ”a high-ranking source in the Russian defense industry explained to Gazeta.ru.

    The S-500 "Prometheus" anti-aircraft missile system (55R6M "Triumfator-M") is being developed by the Almaz-Antey Concern for Aerospace Defense as a new generation of air defense and missile defense systems. The S-500 is supposed to apply the principle of separate solution to the tasks of destroying ballistic and aerodynamic targets.

    As Pavel Sozinov , general designer of the Almaz-Antey East-Kazakhstan Concern, told in an interview with Gazeta.ru , “the S-500 anti-aircraft missile system is not just a repetition of the systems of previous generations in the next technical and technological edition. The S-500 air defense system is classified as a 5th generation system, and it will solve missile defense missions as well.

    We strive to significantly exceed in many respects the achievements that the Americans realized in the THAAD mobile missile defense system. Another task of the "Five Hundred" is to further increase the capabilities in the field of air defense.


    Compared with the S-400, the new system will be completely different constructively and technically, it will have new location and computing facilities, new anti-aircraft guided missiles. "


    Another important point, said the general designer of the Concern East Kazakhstan Almaz-Antey, and this is a global trend - the basic modes of operation in the S-500 air defense system will be automatic.

    That is, the intervention of a human operator in the course of combat work is assumed, but the main mode of all S-500 assets separately, and the system as a whole, is automatic. Only in this case can the desired result be achieved by repelling the impact of modern airspace attack equipment, especially in the conditions of massive raids and in difficult conditions of an interference environment, the general designer explained.

    Technological support is equally important, says Pavel Sozinov.

    S-500 is a large scientific and industrial-technological program, and not just designing a system of prefabricated elements.

    “It is clear that in order to achieve unique in the class of mobile air defense / missile defense capabilities, an advanced technological platform is needed. We have it, ”the general designer emphasized.

    As part of the S-500 air defense system it is planned to have: command and control facilities: combat control point 85ZH6-1, early warning radar 60K6; air defense module: command post 55K6MA, radar 91N6AM, launchers 51P6M, anti-aircraft guided missiles 40N6M; missile defense module: combat control point 85ZH6-2, 76T6 and 77T6 radar with active phased array (AFAR), launchers 77P6; missiles 77N6-N and 77N6-H1 (developed by OJSC MKB Fakel).

    As for the Nudoli, this system has the ability to fire at targets in near space, and its anti-missiles will be equipped with both special and conventional warheads.

    https://www.gazeta.ru/army/2020/06/19/13123189.shtml
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    Post  dino00 on Thu Jul 09, 2020 8:54 pm

    Anti-aircraft gunners in Eastern Siberia to get latest S-300PM-2 air defense systems

    https://tass.com/defense/1176499

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    Post  kvs on Wed Jul 29, 2020 6:25 pm



    The above is relevant to this thread since it adds support to the fact that the S-400 is an effective system.

    The US is bitching hard that Russia is deploying the S-400 to the Arctic. If you look at a world globe, you will see
    that Russia's land mass is not adjacent to the USA aside from the Bering Strait. So why would the yanquis care
    so much where Russia deploys the S-400 inside its borders in the high latitudes:

    1) the yanquis have been making lots of noise about controlling the Arctic in the name of freedumbs and other
    vapid BS. They even deployed the F-35 (LOL) to Alaska.

    2) the yanquis have and had big plans to establish their ABM from the Arctic Ocean near Russia's coast where they
    expected to intercept Russian ICBMs in the boost phase.

    3) the yanquis worship air war. They think that control of the air guarantees their victory. The S-400 denies them
    such a chance even if they lie about it.

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    Post  Viktor on Wed Aug 05, 2020 4:27 pm

    Another S-400 regiment enters starts its duty thumbsup

    The Ministry of Defense received the second regimental set of S-400 air defense systems

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    Post  RTN on Fri Aug 07, 2020 2:33 pm

    GarryB wrote:I suspect to maximise performance they likely split the tasks of in space manouvering and non manouvering targets and inside the atmosphere manouvering and non manouvering targets.

    The S-300V system has a small missile and a big missile... the difference is basically a solid rocket booster... the big one has a bigger booster while the smaller missile has a smaller booster.

    the bigger booster gives the bigger missile more energy to engage targets at longer ranges and higher altitudes and together they can engage a wider range of targets than either missile could manage on their own.

    When they say unmanned platforms they don't mean hand held drones 5km away... they will be meaning HALES and MALES and hypersonic unmanned bombers or cruise missiles...

    Within Russia the 96L6 is deployed in three ways: as an EW asset within the EW network, with the S-350, and with the S-400. While many S-300PM batteries received the Favorit-S upgrade and are now S-300PM2 standard, that seems to only involve upgraded equipment and the ability to fire the 48N6D. They retain the 76N6 and have not received the 96L6.

    Furthermore, the ability of a single battery to operate independent of an air defence network should not be understated. They have the 96L6 at the battery level, providing them with a dedicated organic acquisition and track generating capability. The 96L6 can perform 360 degree search, the limiting factor will be the 120 degree or so engagement cone for the 92N6 engagement radar at a given point in time.

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    Post  Isos on Fri Aug 07, 2020 3:30 pm

    Furthermore, the ability of a single battery to operate independent of an air defence network should not be understated.

    As long as you know where the engagement radar is, it become useless, just like any air defence system that is operating alone. Then you can plan an attack to take it down.

    In a IADS you will detect the radar that scan the airspace but not the s-300 that is listening 100km away with radar turned off and waiting informations about any plane entering in its engagement zone. Then it locks on you and launch a missile while you think there is no AD there.

    Buk system can spread the launchers to cover more area against low altitude flying planes because each of them has a thermal camera for passive detection and an engagement radar to work alone.
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    Post  RTN on Fri Aug 07, 2020 10:53 pm

    Isos wrote:the s-300 that is listening 100km away with radar turned off and waiting informations about any plane entering in its engagement zone. Then it locks on you and launch a missile while you think there is no AD there.
    Listening with radar turned off would mean what? The S -300 battery is receiving information about the enemy aircraft, missile from other sources like space based assets?
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    Post  Isos on Fri Aug 07, 2020 10:59 pm

    RTN wrote:
    Isos wrote:the s-300 that is listening 100km away with radar turned off and waiting informations about any plane entering in its engagement zone. Then it locks on you and launch a missile while you think there is no AD there.
    Listening with radar turned off would mean what? The S -300 battery is receiving information about the enemy aircraft, missile from other sources like space based assets?

    IADS. Datalink.

    It will receive informations from command posts that will be noticed by a nearby radar that is turned on about enemy planes. For exemple Nebo radars.

    The operator in the S-300 with the radar turned off will see on its consol everything the Nebo sees transmited through the command post. But its radar will be turned off. Once the enemy aircraft goes inside its engaging zone it will just use its engagement radar to launch its missiles at the last moment.

    But generally S-400/300 are top tier AD systems and their surveillance radar will work as the active radar while other buks, pantsir and tors will be around waiting for orders. But then even buks have an engagement radar that goes with them. Which less powerfull that s-400's. And all of them will be connected to a command post and every command post will be connected to a more important command post. Lot of redundancy. But mainly it will be surveillance rdar that will be turned on working in L band or S band against which normal jammers don't work and they see at least 300-400 km away a small fighter.

    That's why IADS are good.

    They don't use satelittes IMO for their IADS.
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    Post  Isos on Wed Aug 12, 2020 12:27 am

    Huge if true. That explains why they export it. Pictures in link.

    https://mobile.twitter.com/GuyPlopsky/status/1293162795790266369


    Guy Plopsky
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    9h
    1/ Take this with a grain of salt, but the 92N6A fire-control radar used in Russian military #S400 systems seems markedly more capable than its export version (the 92N6E).
    Note the claimed detection ranges for a target with a 4 m2 RCS:
    92N6A: up to 480 km
    92N6E: up to 250 km

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    Post  Hole on Wed Aug 12, 2020 11:43 am

    The domestic version is capable of using the 40N6 missile, which is not exported.
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    Post  Isos on Wed Aug 12, 2020 11:48 am

    Hole wrote:The domestic version is capable of using the 40N6 missile, which is not exported.

    China and India are getting it too. The difference is that russia can use it against f-15 at max range when export variant will use it only against big targets.
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    Post  Sujoy on Thu Aug 13, 2020 1:34 pm

    Isos wrote:They don't use satelittes IMO for their IADS.
    Not sure about Russia but U.S is using. That's why they are financing SpaceX's Stralink program.

    Satellite constellations like Starlink, have the potential to make conventional ASAT weapons obsolete owing to the nature and sheer size of its architecture besides enhancing war fighting capabilities.
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    Post  RTN on Thu Aug 13, 2020 9:09 pm

    Isos wrote:Huge if true. That explains why they export it. Pictures in link.

    https://mobile.twitter.com/GuyPlopsky/status/1293162795790266369


    Guy Plopsky
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    1/ Take this with a grain of salt, but the 92N6A fire-control radar used in Russian military #S400 systems seems markedly more capable than its export version (the 92N6E).
    Note the claimed detection ranges for a target with a 4 m2 RCS:
    92N6A: up to 480 km
    92N6E: up to 250 km


    The difference in reach from 4m2 to 2m2 ???? Reduced by half??? Must be expensive Havanas that he is smoking.
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    Post  Stealthflanker on Thu Aug 13, 2020 10:38 pm

    Isos wrote:Huge if true. That explains why they export it. Pictures in link.

    https://mobile.twitter.com/GuyPlopsky/status/1293162795790266369


    Guy Plopsky
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    1/ Take this with a grain of salt, but the 92N6A fire-control radar used in Russian military #S400 systems seems markedly more capable than its export version (the 92N6E).
    Note the claimed detection ranges for a target with a 4 m2 RCS:
    92N6A: up to 480 km
    92N6E: up to 250 km

    Any more information on how that range is achieved ?

    This cant be from uprating transmitter or increase in antenna gain. As those are not really a boost nor can be made without external changes. My take however is that it's a special mode or the range when it's being cued by external asset.

    The external cueing allows longer dwell time not normally possible had the radar is working alone. The longer dwell time allows for more energy to be put in the target area and therefore longer range.  The radar can also emit longer pulse which also helps with energy.

    The following is a simple 4th root law based sheet i make for simple and quick tradeoff study of radar ranges.  The Reference radar is what i think the 92N6E.  Which itself based on 30N6. The radar has respectable antenna gain of 43 dBi and known to work like a fighter radar, High PRF waveform in order of 100 KHz and peak power of about 160-130 KW with 10% duty cycle.

    S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3 - Page 28 S-300-10

    The "Scaled Radar" is the same design but with few tweaks namely longer pulsewidth (6 us instead of 1us). Slightly longer dwell time of 0.03 seconds/beam and lowered detection threshold of 21 dB instead 24 dB (90% PD for Swerling-1 Target). As you see 486 km is easily achieved. Without any changes in hardware.

    So the best i can say it's probably the "special long range mode". While the second figure for 2m RCS is a different mode with all parameters are same as the "Export" version.

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    Post  Isos on Thu Aug 13, 2020 11:21 pm

    Export version have downgraded capabilities. It's downgraded on purpose and with russian softwares it would reach the russian version. The real radar is the russian version.

    Then I couldn't answer to your technical question. But don't look at the data of the export version. They represent nothing. They are just what russian MoD allows to be so that it doesn't threaten russian forces in case of a conflict.

    Chinese su-35 are not a threat to russian su-35. Turkish S-400 is not a threat to russian su34 doing SEAD and is not as capable as russian version.

    The only hardware that is better than russian version was the t-90MS which was the best tank that russia could produce back when they made it, beter than anything they had (best russian tank was t-90A). Pantsir was also only an export product before russia started using it and improved it but now a pantsir SM is better than the export pantsir SM.

    They always do downgrade their export stuff and frankly that hurts their industry because when they meet NATO made stuff they are not at their level. Nato countries don't downgrade so much their export equipment.
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    Post  Stealthflanker on Thu Aug 13, 2020 11:33 pm

    Isos wrote:Export version have downgraded capabilities. It's downgraded on purpose and with russian softwares it would reach the russian version. The real radar is the russian version.

    Then I couldn't answer to your technical question. But don't look at the data of the export version. They represent nothing. They are just what russian MoD allows to be so that it doesn't threaten russian forces in case of a conflict.

    Well i'm showing that It's not actually take "much" to achieve the performance in that slide by using supposedly "Export" equipment. The question is then whether it's a "special" long range mode or just the performance with external cueing.

    I consulted SOC (He is an expert in air defense and currently work in Janes) in this matter, he said it could be the Improved version of the 92N6. The Russian designation for the 92N6 is just that, adding E for export making it 92N6E. So the lineage would be like this. So the baseline version of 92N6 is conform with what exported.

    92N6 (Early S-400)------->92N6A (Later S-400)
    |
    |
    |
    V
    92N6E (Export)


    Downgrading equipment for Russia or Soviet is basically works the same as one done by US's. What they did is not including some modes in radars (e.g Export MiG-29's N001 lacks some modes) And maybe lesser capable processor. But the transmitters and other stuff related to range would be the same as it directly relates to the missile's kinematics.

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    Post  GarryB on Fri Aug 14, 2020 8:54 am

    They always do downgrade their export stuff and frankly that hurts their industry because when they meet NATO made stuff they are not at their level. Nato countries don't downgrade so much their export equipment.

    The US has always downgraded export stuff and often goes further and tells countries what they can or cannot have... for instance AMRAAM, which is not the same as the domestic model.

    In central and South America different countries are allowed different aircraft... which sometimes leads those countries to look elsewhere for aircraft.

    Argentina had Skyhawks on their carrier, but their main fighters were Mirages... some countries are allowed F-16s but many are not so they can only have F-5s as light fighters...

    When selling to a non HATO country the IFF systems of HATO equipment is not HATO standard...

    Even with reduced for export performance Russia stuff is still often better than any alternative....
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    Post  LMFS on Sun Aug 23, 2020 11:36 am

    Yes, it is the Antey-4000, the export version of the S-300V4
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    Post  magnumcromagnon on Sat Aug 29, 2020 7:51 pm

    Here's a rough machine translation of a Russian PDF discussing ideas and principles of kinetic penetration of surface-to-air munitions:

    KINETIC PENETRATION ACTION OF SURFACE-TO-AIR MISSILES AGAINST AIR AND OVERWATER TARGETS

    This paper is dedicated to researching the feasibility of arranging the entrance of a
    surface-to-air missile warhead into the interior of a target of the air or overwater type in
    order to increase the efficiency of the warhead being detonated in the interior of the
    target. In order to accomplish this, a study of contemporary surface-to-air missile designs
    (composition diagrams) developed both domestically and abroad is carried out along

    with analysis of their combat characteristics; ballistic limits oft he penetrators (the surface-
    to-air missiles) are determined via analytical approaches. The main results are estimation

    of the kinetic penetration capabilities of surface-to-air missiles and a positive assessment
    of the feasibility of replacing fragmentation and blast/fragmentation surface-to-air missile
    warheads equipped with proximity fuses or contact fuses detonating upon contact with
    the target exterior with penetration/fragmentation warheads detonated in the interior of
    the target.

    Keywords: kinetic action, hit-to-kill, high-speed impact, thin barriers.

    https://pdfhost.io/v/C809LzaX1_Surface_to_air_kinetic_penetrationpdf.pdf

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    Post  andalusia on Wed Sep 02, 2020 9:41 am

    Just saw this on youtube, it explains how the US will deal with the S 400; What do you guys think of this:

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    Post  LMFS on Wed Sep 02, 2020 11:15 am

    andalusia wrote:Just saw this on youtube, it explains how the US will deal with the S 400; What do you guys think of this:

    My two cents: the video itself talks about how dealing with the S-400 would in reality mean dealing with an IADS containing may more elements. They are right and therefore how to attack it depends a lot in what other means are protecting it. Against simple setups of export versions of S-400 without proper support it may be possible to mount an attack, though the interceptor range and general capability of the system make this an opponent much tougher than the West normally likes to tackle. What strikes me is that the video keeps harping on US delusions of waging conventional war against Russian territory and the ways of progressively degrading their IADS, when US-made war simulations show exactly the opposite, that is, that expeditionary forces and specially their airborne assets would suffer extreme attrition by the combination of defensive and offensive means available to their enemy. They seem incapable to understand that, in absence of a very marked technological and economical superiority, the defending side with established presence in theater has a huge advantage vs. US, and that is a very big mistake IMHO.

    In essence Russia has now ways of establishing a continuous, highest-end detection field against both aerodynamic and ballistic targets along their borders, without even needing to switch on the radars and so making vulnerable their individual SAM systems. Developers have said the technology works even with smaller instances like export Rezonans-NE detecting USAF F-35 that were ready for an attack against Iran earlier this year, and then VHF and multiband radar systems are also in operation which render current stealth designs highly questionable at best. With Konteiner covering a depth of >2000 km beyond the Russian border and the amount of long range guided weapons available to them to attack enemy air bases, mounting a successful campaign against their IADS seems rather delusional.

    So S-400 may be vulnerable like all isolated systems are, but a proper IADS composed with its participation is far from being a solved issue for Western air power, as far as I can see. S-500 will only make the situation more difficult for them. One way for US is the proliferation of UCAVS of all sorts, that will make coordinating the AD and keeping its elements hidden much more difficult and will allow US to operate much closer to the SAM sites than it would be possible with manned assets. This and the use of hypersonic missiles with a way bigger chance of going through the AD and hitting before their targets escape are probably the best options they have.

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