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    S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    dino00
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    Post  dino00 on Thu Mar 26, 2020 1:35 pm

    Austin wrote:Russian Embassy in Delhi has just put out this interesting docu comparing Russian mil hardware with US- EU-Chinese competitors.

    Hardware includes the #Su-57, #Okhotnik, #T-90M, #S-400, #IL-76. Ironically, many- HQ-9

    https://twitter.com/SandeepUnnithan/status/1229350428258648071


    S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3 - Page 26 EQ-H3hfU8AINurI?format=jpg

    "Not to mention air defense weapon system (S-400), which is capable of hitting high-speed targets at a range of 400km(40N6")

    This officially ends the myth that 40N6 is a anti-awac, bomber,etc... Type of missile.
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    Post  JohninMK on Thu Mar 26, 2020 2:08 pm

    dino00 wrote:

    "Not to mention air defense weapon system (S-400), which is capable of hitting high-speed targets at a range of 400km(40N6")

    This officially ends the myth that 40N6 is a anti-awac, bomber,etc... Type of missile.

    Why? Its not a myth, it is still one of its functions and a pretty important one at that.

    OK trying to hit fast aircraft at that distance is a good objective but the ability to generate enough fear to keep the enemy force multiplier assets that you mention at least 400km away is a very vital and probably more valuable task.
    Isos
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    Post  Isos on Thu Mar 26, 2020 2:50 pm

    At 400km it will be very hard to hit an AWACS. Radar horizon is 9km altitude at 400km. Bellow that the radar won't see anything. The Awacs won't fly near an s-400 that high.

    You can see in Syria how US or Israeli aircraft keep their distance of the russian S-400.

    Best option against awacs is a su-57 with GCI armed with r-37 (400km) or r-77M(170-200km). Those missiles can be used at max range against such big aircraft and at those ranges the su-57 will not be detected by the awacs or detected too late to send its escort protect him. GCI means it will fly radar turned off so totally stealth.

    Waiting that Awacs comes inside firing range of you air defence means you already lost the war. If the awacs can operate freely outside that then other ELINT can too and they will have good picture of your air defence position allowing them to destroy your forces.
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    Post  magnumcromagnon on Thu Mar 26, 2020 3:18 pm

    In Russia, tests of individual elements of the S-500 air defense system are nearing completion

    S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3 - Page 26 1585209977_snimok

    In Russia, tests of individual elements of the new generation S-500 anti-aircraft missile system are nearing completion. This was announced by the Director General of the Design Bureau of Special Engineering (part of the Almaz-Antey East-Kazakhstan Concern) Vladimir Dolbenkov in an interview with the Russian Defense magazine.

    According to Dolbenkov, in the framework of the Triumfator-M development and testing department, individual elements of the latest S-500 Prometheus air defense system are being tested. The next step is to test the whole system.

    (...) the company's specialists created the units of the latest generation of Triumfator-M mobile anti-aircraft missile system. (...) tests of the units of the anti-aircraft missile system are being completed: launcher, components of the multifunctional radar and missile defense system, equipped chassis for the combat control point, transport units for the early warning radar system

    he declared.

    The preliminary tests of the most important elements of the S-500 - the radar system (RLC) and the multifunctional radar station (radar) - were reported in April last year. The final stage of radar testing took place on the basis of the 185th Center for combat training and combat use of the airborne forces, located in the Astrakhan region.

    As Russian Deputy Defense Minister Alexei Krivoruchko said earlier, according to the plans of the Ministry of Defense, preliminary tests of the system will begin in 2020. The state armament program provides for the S-500 air defense system to be put on combat duty since 2025, however, the pace of testing can confidently say that the system will enter service sooner.

    S-500 - a new generation of air-to-ground air-defense systems - a universal complex of long-range and high-altitude interception with increased missile defense potential. The system being developed by JSC "Concern EKR" Almaz-Antey ", will be the basis of a unified national system of air and missile defense (AD-PRO), produced in Russia. The complex can be easily integrated into a single system with SAM previous generations and other models produced in Russia.

    According to the available information, the minimum set of equipment for the S-500 Prometheus will consist of a combat control station with an automatic control system (ACS), a radar complex, a multifunctional “backlight” radar and up to 12 launchers Nowok anti-aircraft missiles on the basis of tractors BAZ or MZKT.

    https://topwar.ru/169454-v-rossii-zavershajutsja-ispytanija-otdelnyh-jelementov-zrs-s-500.html
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    Post  dino00 on Thu Mar 26, 2020 4:15 pm

    JohninMK wrote:
    dino00 wrote:

    "Not to mention air defense weapon system (S-400), which is capable of hitting high-speed targets at a range of 400km(40N6")

    This officially ends the myth that 40N6 is a anti-awac, bomber,etc... Type of missile.

    Why? Its not a myth, it is still one of its functions and a pretty important one at that.

    OK trying to hit fast aircraft at that distance is a good objective but the ability to generate enough fear to keep the enemy force multiplier assets that you mention at least 400km away is a very vital and probably more valuable task.

    The myth was that the 40N6 was only useful against awacs, etc...type of targets.
    Hole
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    Post  Hole on Thu Mar 26, 2020 5:51 pm

    Isos wrote:At 400km it will be very hard to hit an AWACS. Radar horizon is 9km altitude at 400km. Bellow that the radar won't see anything. The Awacs won't fly near an s-400 that high.

    You can see in Syria how US or Israeli aircraft keep their distance of the russian S-400.

    Best option against awacs is a su-57 with GCI armed with r-37 (400km) or r-77M(170-200km). Those missiles can be used at max range against such big aircraft and at those ranges the su-57 will not be detected by the awacs or detected too late to send its escort protect him. GCI means it will fly radar turned off so totally stealth.

    Waiting that Awacs comes inside firing range of you air defence means you already lost the war. If the awacs can operate freely outside that then other ELINT can too and they will have good picture of your air defence position allowing them to destroy your forces.

    If an AWACS is flying below that height it is nearly useless = mission achieved (for the S-400).
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    Post  JohninMK on Thu Mar 26, 2020 6:06 pm

    Hole wrote:

    If an AWACS is flying below that height it is nearly useless = mission achieved (for the S-400).

    Doesn't the S-400 battery get fed data from other longer range ground radars or even A-50 or fighter radars, so forcing AWACS and tankers back further than 400km? Thus making them even more useless, as you say.

    Apart from AWACS, air tankers have been a brilliant, if expensive, way of keeping the West's short range aircraft in combat against their foes of the last decades. But when facing an enemy with S-300/400 and long range AAM having predominantly short range aircraft that will have to go a long way to refuel becomes a serious issue. That factor is of course on top of the risk created by the enemy having good performance SAMs deployed all over the place.
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    Post  Isos on Thu Mar 26, 2020 8:22 pm

    If an AWACS is flying below that height it is nearly useless = mission achieved (for the S-400).

    Why ? At 7 or 8km it can still see far away. Only things flying very low further away than 400km won't be seen.

    Anyway, AWACS are overrated. Their detection range is not enough anymore even against su-30 armed with r-77-1 there is little they can do. A su-35 with r-37 is impossible to intercept for its escort.

    Doesn't the S-400 battery get fed data from other longer range ground radars or even A-50 or fighter radars, so forcing AWACS and tankers back further than 400km? Thus making them even more useless, as you say.

    The AWACS will never go above enemy territory if the friendly forces have achieved total air supremacy or at least destroyed all the top fighters. It will stay at 100-150km from the front coordinating the interception of enemy fighters.

    Do you really think a boeing or a A-50 emmitting shit tons of radar signals could survive more than 2 minutes obove a land full of anti air ? Certainly not.

    Apart from AWACS, air tankers have been a brilliant, if expensive, way of keeping the West's short range aircraft in combat against their foes of the last decades. But when facing an enemy with S-300/400 and long range AAM having predominantly short range aircraft that will have to go a long way to refuel becomes a serious issue. That factor is of course on top of the risk created by the enemy having good performance SAMs deployed all over the place.

    Same for the tanker. They will refuel above friendly territory. The best thing russia could do is use more r-37 and shot at any big target 300km it sees near the front line. That would destroy f16 or f35 hopes of reaching their targets.

    But IMO, looking at how russian army are turning their eyes to small drones, they will use suicide drones against awacs and tankers when they are parked in the airport. Or kalibr.
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    Post  Hole on Thu Mar 26, 2020 9:02 pm

    You contradicting yourself. An AWACS has to stay away from enemy territory but still can see wide enough even if flying low? No. If it has to fly low enough to avoid being detected by the S-400 radars and have to keep a wide distance to the frontline then it is totaly useless to guide own fighter jets flying over enemy territory which is the main purpose of an AWACS.

    By the way the 40N6 missile has it´s own active radar head so it just needs some data of the whereabout of an AWACS, which can be achieved by passive ELINT systems, to find and hit it.
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    Post  Isos on Thu Mar 26, 2020 10:08 pm

    I never say low but under radar hirzon of the enemy radar. At 400km from the s-400 it need to be only bellow 9km in alritude. Above 4-5km it will still see far away, at least 4th generation fighters without jamming.

    You need to understand that the s-400 and other radars can't be deployed in enemy territory so they will always be behind the front line and safe from potential artillery. That's the weak spot of an IADS, the geographical limits of deploying radars where enemy can play with altitude to surprise you and destroy slowly your IADS.

    US never planed to send an awacs and fighters deep inside enemy territory where sukhois and migs operate in huge numbers. That's true for 3rd world countries with 5 or 6 mig but not against China or Russia. The Awacs will operate at same distance from the front as the S-400. They are not hardwares you can hide. The same way you propose to find awacs with ELINT you can find the s-400 and pass data to awacs to stay in safe zone.

    Some s-400 can wait in ambushes but the front will be scanned by optics, stalites and drones putting them in danger.



    Maybe A-50U can guide active radar missiles but I doubt normal a-50 or fighters could guide them. Never heard of. I heard french frigates can control weapons of rafales to use it against targets designated by the frigate and about e-2 guided some SM missiles but in the very last variant.
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    Post  kvs on Thu Mar 26, 2020 11:19 pm

    There is no way to hide from over-horizon radars. They bounce EM radiation off the ionosphere and the surface to be able to
    probe thousands of kilometers away. Recall how Tesla was ridiculed for talking about global EM transmission by so-called
    experts (professors, and other institutional maggots) since EM radiation radiates radially away from any source and would thus
    leave the Earth's atmosphere into space instead of following the surface of the Earth.

    So AWACS, missiles, etc. are being probed from EM beams zigzagging between two reflecting surfaces. And they are
    being lit up over their largest cross-sectional area.

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    Post  GarryB on Fri Mar 27, 2020 3:01 am

    At 400km it will be very hard to hit an AWACS. Radar horizon is 9km altitude at 400km. Bellow that the radar won't see anything. The Awacs won't fly near an s-400 that high.

    The radar from an AWACS aircraft travels enormous distances... generally as a rule of thumb more than three times the detection range of the system it is easy to detect because the radar itself detects targets at the detection range which is doubled because the radar waves travel out to the target and have to travel back to the antenna for a detection to be made.

    An AWACS plane could be sitting on a runway... if its radar is operating and it is doing its job of AWACSing then the S-400 will detect the emission and be able to triangulate its location accurately enough to determine range and launch a missile. Being ARH missiles they don't need line of sight... they just need to know where to look... and a 400km range ballistic missile moves at over mach 7... proven in Desert Storm with modified Scud missiles... so a steeply diving missile moving at more than 1km/s which may or may not be using its own radar from directly above to detect targets... one second before impact it will be a spot above you... one second later impact... even if you saw it two seconds before impact... which would be damn impressive because nose on it will be smaller than a basket ball at more than 2km range... what sort of evasive action could you perform in a 747?  None. You can't dodge it... even in a fighter plane if you immediately pulled hard on the flight stick and pulled a 12 g turn the missile would still be close enough for its 150kg warhead of HE and metal fragments would shower your aircraft and turn it into a burning sieve...

    Best option against awacs is a su-57 with GCI armed with r-37 (400km) or r-77M(170-200km). Those missiles can be used at max range against such big aircraft and at those ranges the su-57 will not be detected by the awacs or detected too late to send its escort protect him. GCI means it will fly radar turned off so totally stealth.

    AWACS planes emit radar waves and are easy to detect.... just like HQs and Comms centres on a battlefield... just monitor the cellphone network traffic and you will work out the area the bad guys are and then monitor foot traffic and individual cell transmissions and you will quickly work out which building to hit... AWACS... airborne warning (radar) and control (command and communications)...

    Waiting that Awacs comes inside firing range of you air defence means you already lost the war. If the awacs can operate freely outside that then other ELINT can too and they will have good picture of your air defence position allowing them to destroy your forces.

    Tracking down AWACS can be done with no emissions by an S-400 system in stealth mode.... they wont know it is there unless they see the single missile launch... and then it will move away... back into the IADS it is a part of...

    S-400s and soon S-500s will also soon roam around the worlds oceans too... S-500s will not be cheap but a 600km range shot at an AWACS would be worth a missile...

    HATO uses AWACS aircraft to coordinate attacks and operations so it wont be held back deep in friendly territory... it needs to be up in enemy territory looking for enemy aircraft and ground forces to coordinate attacks and resources... imagine an anti radiation version of Kinzhal hanging under a MiG-31... a Mach 9 2,000 km range anti AWACS weapon....    Twisted Evil   russia

    JSTARS and AWACS are integral parts of HATO.... they feed targets and commands into the western war machine to direct it where to go and where not to go... take away such force multipliers and countries like Malaysia and India can easily beat US pilots when it is one on one... because although well trained US pilots are nothing special... they have excellent support from assets like JSTARS and satellites and AWACS platforms to direct and coordinate their moves to make them look good.

    The myth was that the 40N6 was only useful against awacs, etc...type of targets.

    Because of the range involved most targets will be big.... B-52s, AWACS, JSTARS, and of course inflight refuelling aircraft and transport types will be most vulnerable... but coming down at mach 7 there wont be any chance of dodging such a weapon without jammers and decoys and a seriously good ESM suite...

    Interestingly from above even a B-2 probably wont be stealthy...

    Why ? At 7 or 8km it can still see far away. Only things flying very low further away than 400km won't be seen.

    At 2km altitude it wont see 400km as you point out due to the radar horizon, but the radar signals it is emitting will continue travelling thousands of kms... making locating the AWACS pretty straight forward for ELINT and SAMs and other assets...

    Anyway, AWACS are overrated. Their detection range is not enough anymore even against su-30 armed with r-77-1 there is little they can do. A su-35 with r-37 is impossible to intercept for its escort.

    They are going to be in trouble, but new technology might change things with newer radar designs like photonic radars etc...


    The AWACS will never go above enemy territory if the friendly forces have achieved total air supremacy or at least destroyed all the top fighters. It will stay at 100-150km from the front coordinating the interception of enemy fighters.

    That is close enough for the 250km range S-400 missiles to hit them... and the 140km range S-350s could have a go as well...

    Do you really think a boeing or a A-50 emmitting shit tons of radar signals could survive more than 2 minutes obove a land full of anti air ? Certainly not.

    That is what we are saying... but HATO relies on their AWACS platforms for command control and coordination... it is their C4IR mobile base of imperialism...

    But IMO, looking at how russian army are turning their eyes to small drones, they will use suicide drones against awacs and tankers when they are parked in the airport. Or kalibr.

    Maybe a bundle of Kalibr or Iskander delivered suicide drones for those targets on the ground... and cratering munitions so any that survive can't get airborne...

    You need to understand that the s-400 and other radars can't be deployed in enemy territory so they will always be behind the front line and safe from potential artillery. That's the weak spot of an IADS, the geographical limits of deploying radars where enemy can play with altitude to surprise you and destroy slowly your IADS.

    Not true... Russia can deploy a wide range of high flying aircraft that can collect target data on low flying threats deep in enemy territory and emitting platforms like AWACS wont even need that... they give their own positions away through normal use.

    Some s-400 can wait in ambushes but the front will be scanned by optics, stalites and drones putting them in danger.

    Radar and radio silent S-400 batteries operating near borders can be covered by multiple overlapping systems from S-350 and BUK-M3 through Pantsir-SM and TOR-M3... when a HATO AWACS scans for targets 200km behind the front line the S-400 truck can launch a missile or two and then withdraw... HATO does not have an unlimited number of AWACS aircraft and when they start bursting into flames they will disappear from the battlefield pretty quick... either like a face mask delivery during a pandemic or in flames...

    Maybe A-50U can guide active radar missiles but I doubt normal a-50 or fighters could guide them. Never heard of. I heard french frigates can control weapons of rafales to use it against targets designated by the frigate and about e-2 guided some SM missiles but in the very last variant.

    The new model fighters are part of the network... the Su-30 was used to provide target data for a MiG-31 with the old short range radar for an R-37M launch of 300km. The S-400 400km range missile uses ARH like the R-37M and does not need and could not get a lock on target before launch anyway... all they need is information about where the target is and they look for them themselves as they approach the target area provided by another platform... or in the case of an AWACS target... its own emissions.

    The Su-57 could probably use Link 12 L band emissions from the AWACS to locate it and launch an attack totally passively...
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    Post  JohninMK on Fri Mar 27, 2020 12:04 pm

    "HATO does not have an unlimited number of AWACS aircraft and when they start bursting into flames they will disappear from the battlefield pretty quick.."

    More aircraft than crews will speed that up. Plus whilst the ones in the air are at least moving any on the ground, with their airfields will be dust.

    Networked command and control wherever it is is a serious vulnerability. Worked brilliantly against goat fuckers but the Russian and Chinese are not in that category, they can attack/jam the network nodes.
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    Post  GarryB on Sat Mar 28, 2020 1:17 am

    That is the primary problem of HATO... it is geared towards being the Imperial shock troops of the US 1% oligarchs... smashing small countries to make very rich people richer...

    If they honestly believed China and Russia were the threat they would be spending their money totally differently...
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    Post  Austin on Sat Apr 04, 2020 4:16 pm

    New Tiksi anti-aircraft missile regiment using S-300PS anti-aircraft missile systems

    https://bmpd.livejournal.com/3978462.html
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    Post  GarryB on Sun Apr 05, 2020 6:33 am

    Nice, so this is part of the air defences deployed to cover the North Sea Route, so despite using rather old missiles it basically expands Russian Air Defence Network coverage to places it has not really covered before... the far north...

    I suspect as production of the S-350 ramps up the S-300PS missiles it uses will be upgraded and replaced by newer missiles, but in the mean time those S-300s are potent missiles anyway...
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    Post  JohninMK on Sun Apr 05, 2020 11:44 am

    GarryB wrote:

    I suspect as production of the S-350 ramps up the S-300PS missiles it uses will be upgraded and replaced by newer missiles, but in the mean time those S-300s are potent missiles anyway...

    As well as being a very cost effective potential product when refurbed for the export market.

    It looks like we are heading for a world where even the Saudis, let alone anyone else, can't afford US weapon pricing.
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    Post  GarryB on Mon Apr 06, 2020 12:27 am

    It looks like we are heading for a world where even the Saudis, let alone anyone else, can't afford US weapon pricing.

    Not only can't they afford the price... they can't afford the cost when it fails like that attack on Saudi oil assets... previously the actual protection they are paying for is the protection Kuwait and Saudi Arabia had in the 1990s when the Iraqi invasion resulted in a US attack and 20 odd years of economic isolation and sanctions against the country that threatened them... but now they are running out of sanctions and ideas and their weapons really don't work when you only have a few pieces of the chess set and you really don't know how to play for yourself...
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    Post  Austin on Sun Apr 12, 2020 3:57 pm

    S-400 missile defence systems at the repetition of the Victory Day Parade, May 2019.S-500 is ‘Anti-Space Weapon’ That Will Fundamentally Transform Russia’s Air Defences – Fmr Commander

    https://sputniknews.com/military/202004121078928800-s-500-is-anti-space-weapon-that-will-fundamentally-transform-russias-air-defences--fmr-commander/
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    Post  andalusia on Thu Apr 16, 2020 10:27 am

    Just saw this what do you guys think? https://worldview.stratfor.com/article/why-s-400-s400-missile-long-range-turkey-russia-syria-effective
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    Post  JohninMK on Thu Apr 16, 2020 12:10 pm

    andalusia wrote:Just saw this what do you guys think? https://worldview.stratfor.com/article/why-s-400-s400-missile-long-range-turkey-russia-syria-effective

    I would say its a pretty fair assessment.

    I'd like to see the same from them written around the US equivalent, the Patriot.
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    Post  Big_Gazza on Thu Apr 16, 2020 12:41 pm

    andalusia wrote:Just saw this what do you guys think? https://worldview.stratfor.com/article/why-s-400-s400-missile-long-range-turkey-russia-syria-effective

    I thought it was reasonable until I read this unmitigated bullshit:

    "The Syrian civil war has crippled Syria's wider IADS, Syria's crews are of questionable training and its available air defenses are technologically obsolescent."

    The author is an idiot. Syrias IADS has never been better due to upgrades forced on Damascus by the conflict, and they are able to effectively (though imperfectly) take out stand-off weapons launched by the Ziostani rats from Lebanese airspace. Blatant fucking nonsense like this shit can't be excused.
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    Post  Isos on Thu Apr 16, 2020 12:54 pm

    I thought it was reasonable until I read this unmitigated bullshit:

    Not bullshit at all. The war has destroyed many hardware and lost land made them unable to deploy AD accross wide area letting SAA in a bublle around the western part of the country. Add to that their systems are pretty old with few modern pantsir and buk.

    It's Russia that deployed many things for them starting with early warning radars all over the place and upgraded for free their sytems and even integrated them with its own stuff.

    We saw how stupid their crew is when they lost that pantsir because they reloaded it in open area during israeli attacks...

    I didn't read the article and I'm not saying it's not biased. But the statement alone isn't bullshit.
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    S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3 - Page 26 Empty I would say its a pretty fair assessment.

    Post  GarryB on Thu Apr 16, 2020 2:44 pm

    I'd like to see the same from them written around the US equivalent, the Patriot.

    Well if they are consistent they would have to mention that what they said about the S-400 applies to the Patriot as well, except the Americans have basically made the Patriot and otherwise rely on aircraft for defense making the Patriot terribly vulnerable to standoff munitions... their short range air defence systems consist of Stinger mountings on Humvees and Chapparal... which is basically a ground launched Sidewinder.

    The S-500 wont replace the S-400 just like the S-350 didn't replace the S-400... all three will be used together or on their own (ie a strategic target that might be attacked by powerful ballistic missiles like a military port or major air field might have S-350, S-400, and S-500, but a smaller airfield might not have the S-500. A smaller installation might only have S-350, or S-400 with TOR or Pantsir supporting it.

    The talk about the threat of low flying targets is amusing because such threats are equally dangerous to Patriot but the crew operating Patriot have to anticipate the direction enemy missiles will be approaching from, because the short range at which low flying targets will appear at means no chance to turn the launchers toward targets coming from unexpected directions. A glance at a satellite image will tell you which direction the Patriot missile launchers are oriented and if pointing the wrong way the time and energy lost turning 180 degrees after launch means the minimum engagement range for the patriot might be increased past the detection range in that direction for a low flying target so low flying cruise missiles could be totally safe...

    Then we get the genius... these missiles cannot defeat HATO on their own and need to be part of an IADS to be effective... amazing... and obvious.

    This is amusing though...

    Countries that are middlingly successful in using SAMs include Turkey, where the S-400 is not backed up by significant numbers of effective SAM systems but still proves very beneficial because Turkey's primary air defense — like that of many other NATO countries — is actually centered on its fighter aircraft.

    So what they are trying to say is that a viable alternative to an IADS with layers of SAMs and radars and sensors is to use some fighter aircraft and some AWACS aircraft.... but hang on... at the start of this article it pointed out that the S-400 doesn't carry that many missiles so it would be easy to overwhelm... can't you say the same thing about a HATO defence based around a few AWACS aircraft that are terribly vulnerable too? Especially when there is no plan B air defence...

    Russia has A-50Us and are introducing A-100s and they are building Su-35s and MiG-35s and Su-30s and also Su-57s and MiG-31s and they are including those aircraft into their IADS... all part of the VKO aerospace defence forces...

    While Syria's S-300s could theoretically cause some damage to the Israeli aircraft that constantly raid the country, they wouldn't survive for long after firing their first missile.

    Ultimately, long-range SAMs like the S-400 are no miracle weapons; even the most effective IADS is liable to be overwhelmed if under constant attack without reinforcement. But if properly supported, they can certainly play a decisive role, especially against more limited attacks.

    Syrian S-300s and its IADS is the only thing keeping Israeli aircraft from violating their airspace on a daily basis like they did before they got it.

    An IADS is vastly more complex and costly to set up than an airforce, but Syria has Russia to provide them with a fully operational system that is connected to the Russian system that has been operating there while the Russian forces have been there... so mistakes don't happen again.

    Suggestions that Israel could take out the Syria AD if they wanted to is bravado... I really don't think they could, and certainly not without taking some very very serious losses in the process...

    I mean if standoff weapons and stealth were really the fundamental problems of the S-400 then it would be business as usual for the Israeli air force in Syria because they have stand off weapons and they have the pinnacle of stealth fighter technology in the form of the F-35... they should be able to do as they please in Syria with Syria only operating S-300 and other older systems... but they seem to have to mount fairly large attacks to get one or two weapons to slip through to targets and most of the time nothing seems to make it through...

    If they wanted the S-400 for ballistic target threats then THAAD or PAC-3 Patriot should have been their go to systems you would think... perhaps it was not just about ballistic targets?

    And the reasons would have to be very important for them to jeopardise their F-35 contracts... both the 100 odd aircraft they were buying but the 3,500 odd they were making components for...
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    S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3 - Page 26 Empty Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  GarryB on Thu Apr 16, 2020 3:17 pm

    Syria didn't have an integrated air defence network... very few countries actually do.

    The air defences of Syria used to be based on air defence units that might have had some sort of centralised warning system but were largely on their own to deal with targets they detect.

    An IADS is a system like anything else... the first generation ones were simple and not amazing... if you have seen a documentary about the Battle of Britain you will have seen large maps or clear boards with maps and airfield locations and where enemy aircraft are plotted and decisions are made about which aircraft from which airfield should be launched to engage based on an estimate of what their likely target might be.

    That is what an IADS is... it is a management system where information is captured and evaluated from sensors and assets like radar arrays and aircraft communications and ground based listening stations etc etc and the information is collated on what planes and guns etc are available and their location... combined with commanders able to determine attacks taking place and what resources will be needed to stop such attacks... send up too many planes and you risk not having enough for the next wave if it comes. Don't send enough and your forces will be overwhelmed and cut up and their bombers might get through to their targets...

    The point is that before the cowardly Israeli attack that used a Russian plane as cover for one of their own attacks on Syrian territory that resulted in that Russian plane getting accidently shot down by a Syrian SAM launched at the Israeli planes, the Syrian air defence units had no idea what they were looking at when they looked at the blips on their screens. An IADS numbers all targets in the air and where possible identifies them and continues to track them while they are visible... if the track is identified as hostile and starts to behave suspiciously or appears to be heading somewhere it shouldn't be the command can allocate a suitable response like activating a nearby SAM site or send aircraft to the area. An IADS means you can now send aircraft because they will be visible to the local SAM operators as friendly...

    An IADS doesn't need state of the art super missiles to be effective... the IADS in itself makes any collection of air defence assets hundreds or even thousands of times more effective.... that is why they are called force multipliers...

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