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    Decline of the western society

    ahmedfire
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    Post  ahmedfire on Wed Apr 29, 2020 2:51 pm

    The Office for National Statistics, or the Home Office, or the Mayor’s Office for Policing and Crime will not publish any data on crimes committed by muslims and blacks because they don't want to be seen as racist.

    And of course you have your own research centers which authorized by government to search and inspect such data and confirm it  Very Happy


    The muslims in England were grooming girls for decades and everyone but they did not to say anything because they would be viewed as racist(now think for a second of the muslims were doing this in Russia or China, they would have be in prison and facing charges and other not nice stuff.)

    The whites in England were grooming girls for decades .

    Here is how the media plays the propaganda role regarding some reports .

    The report faced fierce criticism from academic researchers. Ella Cockbain, a lecturer in security and crime science, is an expert on child sexual exploitation. She said it “is a case study in bad science: riddled with errors, inconsistencies, a glaring lack of transparency, sweeping claims and gross generalisations unfounded its own ‘data’”.

    Nazir Afzal is the Crown Prosecution Service’s former lead on child sexual abuse and the prosecutor most responsible for bringing down grooming gangs. The media, he observes, pounce on cases involving Asians, but often ignore those involving white perpetrators.

    Given all this, the figure of 84% of grooming gangs being Asian seems dubious. There have, however, been previous studies suggesting disproportionate Asian involvement. Two CEOP reports, in 2011 and 2013, noted that the data was so “incomplete” and “inconsistent” that one could not “draw national conclusions about ethnicity”. Nevertheless, data available suggested “a disproportionate number of offenders… as Asian”.
    The social mores of many British Muslims are deeply conservative. Given the numbers involved, however, it is difficult to infer that the culture of particular communities is causally responsible for grooming gangs.
    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/nov/11/84-per-cent-of-grooming-gangs-are-asians-we-dont-know-if-that-figure-is-right

    If you took a look at the history of muslims and Islam, raping and converting non believers is what they do and have have been doing for a thousand year.

    HAHAHA still people repeat such propaganda ,Indonesia is the country that has the largest number of Muslims in the world, and the majority of people in Malaysia are Muslims. But, no Muslim army ever went to Indonesia or Malaysia .

    Muslims ruled Spain (Andalusia) for about 800 years. During this period the Christians and Jews were doing their respective religions, and this is a documented historical fact. Muslims ruled India for about a thousand years, and therefore had the power to force each and every non-Muslim of India to convert to Islam, but they did not, and thus more than 80 percent of the Indian population remains non-Muslim.Islam spread rapidly on the East Coast of Africa. And likewise no Muslim army was ever dispatched to the East Coast of Africa.

    Tell me about the people now in Europe and U.S who are turning to Islam , did muslims raping them and enforcing them to do that ? Muslims are minority there by the way !

    Forget all this and tell me more about the rape and murder crimes  commited by CRUSADERS through history  Smile

    the crusaders came from Europe into the Middle-east and invaded it, killed and raped .when the TRINITARIAN CHRISTIAN CRUSADERS invaded Jerusalem, civilians were massacred, raped and their property looted en masse (including mosques and synagogues). It was described in the words of a crusader eyewitnes account:Our men followed and pursued them, killing and hacking, as far as the temple of Solomon, and there there was such a slaughter that our men were up to their ankles in the enemy's blood.

    Pope Urban II said that Christ commanded to go and exterminate Muslims .

    CRUSADERS enjoyed catapulting the severed heads of fallen Muslim warriers into besieged cities. After a victory near Antioch, crusaders brought severed heads back to the besieged city. Hundreds of these heads were shot into the city, and hundreds more impaled on stakes in front of the city walls. A crusader bishop called it a joyful spectacle for the people of God.

    Not only did the Crusaders rape and massacre; they made a party of it. They hatted out their horses in the white wigs of the Constantinopolitan ladies.

    But that's not just in the old past , Bush Talked on 2001 about "the Crusade war" and before that the whites killed the Vietnamese and burned Japanese and raped German women and then Iraqis women and stole the latinos .

    I can add a very long list if you want .
    ahmedfire
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    Post  ahmedfire on Wed Apr 29, 2020 3:09 pm

    The brain drain is everywhere... not just from third and second world countries to first world countries... even within a country you will have people moving from rural backwater areas to urban areas for reasons of getting a job and improved comfort.

    Had a lot of friends who went to the UK to get jobs and earn big money... most of them came back to NZ to have kids because the schools over there frightened them... Form living in a squalid one bedroom apartment in London they can buy a two storey mansion here for the money they paid in rent...

    I agree but 3rd world don't have the mechanism to use even the people who don't travel outside cry
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    Post  par far on Wed Apr 29, 2020 8:26 pm

    ahmedfire wrote:
    The Office for National Statistics, or the Home Office, or the Mayor’s Office for Policing and Crime will not publish any data on crimes committed by muslims and blacks because they don't want to be seen as racist.

    And of course you have your own research centers which authorized by government to search and inspect such data and confirm it  Very Happy






    The Muslims not only rape white girls but also girls of other religion, this was in the news and this is in various books written by people who researched this.


    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/7825480/sexual-exploitation-sikh-girls-ignored-police/






    The muslims in England were grooming girls for decades and everyone but they did not to say anything because they would be viewed as racist(now think for a second of the muslims were doing this in Russia or China, they would have be in prison and facing charges and other not nice stuff.)

    The whites in England were grooming girls for decades .


    Before





    Here is how the media plays the propaganda role regarding some reports .

    The report faced fierce criticism from academic researchers. Ella Cockbain, a lecturer in security and crime science, is an expert on child sexual exploitation. She said it “is a case study in bad science: riddled with errors, inconsistencies, a glaring lack of transparency, sweeping claims and gross generalisations unfounded its own ‘data’”.

    Nazir Afzal is the Crown Prosecution Service’s former lead on child sexual abuse and the prosecutor most responsible for bringing down grooming gangs. The media, he observes, pounce on cases involving Asians, but often ignore those involving white perpetrators.

    Given all this, the figure of 84% of grooming gangs being Asian seems dubious. There have, however, been previous studies suggesting disproportionate Asian involvement. Two CEOP reports, in 2011 and 2013, noted that the data was so “incomplete” and “inconsistent” that one could not “draw national conclusions about ethnicity”. Nevertheless, data available suggested “a disproportionate number of offenders… as Asian”.
    The social mores of many British Muslims are deeply conservative. Given the numbers involved, however, it is difficult to infer that the culture of particular communities is causally responsible for grooming gangs.
    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/nov/11/84-per-cent-of-grooming-gangs-are-asians-we-dont-know-if-that-figure-is-right



    This Nazir Afzal is a muslim, why would a muslim bad mouth other muslims?







    If you took a look at the history of muslims and Islam, raping and converting non believers is what they do and have have been doing for a thousand year.

    [i][i]




    HAHAHA still people repeat such propaganda ,Indonesia is the country that has the largest number of Muslims in the world, and the majority of people in Malaysia are Muslims. But, no Muslim army ever went to Indonesia or Malaysia .

    Muslims ruled Spain (Andalusia) for about 800 years. During this period the Christians and Jews were doing their respective religions, and this is a documented historical fact. Muslims ruled India for about a thousand years, and therefore had the power to force each and every non-Muslim of India to convert to Islam, but they did not, and thus more than 80 percent of the Indian population remains non-Muslim.Islam spread rapidly on the East Coast of Africa. And likewise no Muslim army was ever dispatched to the East Coast of Africa.

    Tell me about the people now in Europe and U.S who are turning to Islam , did muslims raping them and enforcing them to do that ? Muslims are minority there by the way !

    Forget all this and tell me more about the rape and murder crimes  commited by CRUSADERS through history  Smile

    the crusaders came from Europe into the Middle-east and invaded it, killed and raped .when the TRINITARIAN CHRISTIAN CRUSADERS invaded Jerusalem, civilians were massacred, raped and their property looted en masse (including mosques and synagogues). It was described in the words of a crusader eyewitnes account:Our men followed and pursued them, killing and hacking, as far as the temple of Solomon, and there there was such a slaughter that our men were up to their ankles in the enemy's blood.

    Pope Urban II said that Christ commanded to go and exterminate Muslims .

    CRUSADERS enjoyed catapulting the severed heads of fallen Muslim warriers into besieged cities. After a victory near Antioch, crusaders brought severed heads back to the besieged city. Hundreds of these heads were shot into the city, and hundreds more impaled on stakes in front of the city walls. A crusader bishop called it a joyful spectacle for the people of God.

    Not only did the Crusaders rape and massacre; they made a party of it. They hatted out their horses in the white wigs of the Constantinopolitan ladies.

    But that's not just in the old past , Bush Talked on 2001 about "the Crusade war" and before that the whites killed the Vietnamese and burned Japanese and raped German women and then Iraqis women and stole the latinos .

    I can add a very long list if you want .
    [/i]




    There is no religion that has killed more people in the name of religion than Islam. It even says in the Quran, the Islamic holy book to kill people.

    The Qur'an commands its followers to launch jihads or holy wars of conquest to force conversions to Islam.

    Fight and slay the unbelievers wherever you find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem of war. (Surah IX:5)

    Fight those who do not believe in Allah or the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and his apostle, nor acknowledge the Religion of Truth (i.e. Islam), (even if they are people of the Book), until they pay the tax with willing submission and feel themselves subdued. (Surah IX:29)

    Seize them and slay them wherever you find them. (Surah IV:89,91)


    Last edited by par far on Wed Apr 29, 2020 8:43 pm; edited 3 times in total
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    Post  par far on Wed Apr 29, 2020 8:32 pm

    kvs wrote:
    par far wrote:
    kvs wrote:I don't like smearing immigrants as the source of all problems.   But the crime wave in the EU was real and it happened after 2017.
    So that graph is not really evidence of anything.   There has been a drop in crime rates in Canada over the last 30 years too.  
    But Canada did not get flooded with refugees.   That is the critical detail.   Canada is not so easy to get into even though it
    takes in over 300,000 immigrants per year and these immigrants are not 100% going on welfare.   By contrast as of early 2019,
    97% of the refugees unleashed by Turkey had not found any jobs in Germany.

    The absorption capacity for immigrants is a serious issue and not some irrelevant detail.   Pumping in more immigrants than
    the system can handle is stupid and spreads misery to both old and new citizens.  PC drones cannot even admit this obvious
    fact and instead revise the truth to push their agendas.

    Also, Canada and the USA are better structured to accept immigrants since they are nations built from waves of immigrants.
    Europe and the Old World have a much harder time absorbing immigrants.   That is why France has Algerian ghettos.   So
    the immigrant absorption capacity of the old world is smaller per capita than Canada or the USA.  



    Canada takes in 300,000 migrants, some say it is more than that. But Canada does not make 300,000 new jobs every year, it is only matter of time  before  Canada looks like Europe  with all the ghettos. Crime and homelessness has gone up in big Canadian  cities.

    Immigration is a Ponzi racket for the west.   It creates transient GDP stimulus which attenuates quickly thus requiring more immigrant
    imports.   Immigration into Canada today is not a sign of robust economic growth, it is a sign of GDP decline and is just another trick
    in addition to cheap credit to keep the bubble inflated.


    Very true and now this bubble is going to burst. They can't keep it going forever, I wonder how the western countries will pay the huge amounts of debt they have and on top they keep bringing in refugees and Immigrants and putting them on welfare(I wonder whose brilliant idea this was.)
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    Post  ahmedfire on Wed Apr 29, 2020 11:34 pm

    There is no religion that has killed more people in the name of religion than Islam. It even says in the Quran, the Islamic holy book to kill people.

    The Qur'an commands its followers to launch jihads or holy wars of conquest to force conversions to Islam.

    Fight and slay the unbelievers wherever you find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem of war. (Surah IX:5)

    Fight those who do not believe in Allah or the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and his apostle, nor acknowledge the Religion of Truth (i.e. Islam), (even if they are people of the Book), until they pay the tax with willing submission and feel themselves subdued. (Surah IX:29)

    Seize them and slay them wherever you find them. (Surah IV:89,91)

    Yeah i know very well such games when anyone with bad intentions can quote a verse of scripture out of context to seemingly prove a point.

    But believe me you don't know and you don't understand what are you talking about , i'm pretty sure because i did hit such discussions hundreds of times and always guys like you start Google copy-paste process without having any academic fair studies . You don't know the academic rules to understand what you just copied .Arabic language is a very sensitive and flexible language , you need to study it hard along with other religious sciences to know what Quran is saying .

    I can explain to you all of that but guess what ,this will never change anything so you are free to think whatever you need , call Islam as terrorism and Muslims as sexual abusers ,at the end of the day your thoughts will not change anything around .

    And i don't accuse Christianity or Judaism for what some christians or jews did through history .Religion is something constant but believers are humans who could do mistakes and get affected by multiple factors .

    Have a nice day .
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    Post  kvs on Thu Apr 30, 2020 2:47 am

    https://twitter.com/mizoji/status/1254045016978309122

    French police showing their humanity.

    How I wish for Navalny and his maggot 5th column to get such treatment. Instead we have kid glove treatment which
    is labelled "brutality" by the NATzO fake stream media.

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    Post  kvs on Fri May 01, 2020 5:13 pm



    Feminazi and female hypocrisy. They are not happy when the rules that they demand work against their "feels".
    Here we see toxic femininity fully exposed.

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    Post  nomadski on Fri May 01, 2020 7:08 pm

    Well since title of topic is decline of western, and KVS posting relevant comment, I do not want to digress. But it is true that Islam has also had fair share of war. But I would not say it has been the most violent faith or belief system. Other belief systems have also had fair share of violence, without exception. And some much much more. And it is not always a question of faults by people, misapplication or misreading of a belief system. All belief systems or laws, were limited by time and circumstance. Physical laws or social laws. This gets even worse as time passes and circumstances change. There are no eternal human laws. Ahmedfire, you mention well the horror of crusades. One horror that you forgot to mention, is that crusaders killed and roasted and ate the Muslim children as food. All in the name of Christ. And how about revolutionary Iran. The " Muslims" who captured and imprisoned Marxists, who refused to renounce their beliefs, were allowed to Rape virgin female prisoners. So they would not go to Hell as virgin. Before being executed. All in the name of Muhammed. ( I believe this account to be true and  much worse accounts during  very violent and bloody revolution).


    Now I come to western decline. KVS mentions family breakdown. Regularly. This is important. I live in UK. And some areas of towns, are father free zones. This is the result of bad  ( capitalistic) laws, that facilitate family breakdown, to supply cheap female labour for profit creation. Dressed up as woman's lib or equality. The net result is that poverty is widespread. Nobody looking after children. And they become victims of abuse.

    I went out at night to buy Pizza. On return to my car, in a side road, there were two  white English children. A girl and boy. The boy about 11 and girl about ten years old. The boy said to me  " ........ Hey mister, do you want to take her home? She is lovely you know ! ".  He was pimping a ten year old. Modern Britain!  I felt sick to my stomach. So this problems belong to entire society. Not just a few from this or that group.


    Last edited by nomadski on Fri May 01, 2020 8:32 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Post  kvs on Fri May 01, 2020 8:21 pm

    We are entering a serious collapse juncture. The ridiculous anti male laws in the west have succeeded in reducing marriages and
    bearing of children. Feminism has amplified toxic femininity to the Nth degree. Modern western women are married to the state
    and think males are disposable. As I have posted elsewhere a while back, societies have life cycles. The "ageing" of a society
    is reflected in the mentality of its individuals. Every new generation slips in key parameters from the previous one. This is because
    humans have no ability for consistent autonomous behaviour. The "background state" is what shapes our beliefs and actions.
    Advances in living standards have resulted in the decline of individual character. There are hordes of idiots who take everything
    for granted, who do not know what real life is. Reality is not some slave to human whim, it is the final arbiter on everything and
    does not care about humans.

    When citizens become too dumb and detached from reality, that is the end stage of society. It will collapse. However, this time
    around we will not see what happened with the decline of Rome. Rome was an agrarian power where people could survive on
    farms even if cities declined and became depopulated. Modern society in substantial parts of the world is urbanized with
    mechanized farming. City residents are not just going to flip over into being farmers. There will be strife and starvation first.
    The crash is going to be really hard for modern civilization. Sure, in some parts of the world people are already living the
    "collapse lifestyle". So for them the crash may be softer. But I think even there we will have serious problems. Even
    3rd world countries are dependent on global supply chains including oil and transport equipment.
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    Post  kvs on Fri May 01, 2020 10:32 pm



    And example of both the falsity of the "strong and independent woman" feminist BS and the political correctness brain rot.
    PC degeneracy, I have to say, is driven to a large extent by females. Too much shallow, feels based "analysis" from this
    part of the population. Easy to fool with emotional tricks.

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    Post  kvs on Sat May 02, 2020 3:46 am



    An $880 fine given to a student for skate-boarding in an empty non-fenced park by three enforcement stooges.
    An average municipal stooges is paid about $45 per hour so having three of them means $135 per hour to administer
    $880 tickets. I doubt they give one out every hour considering how empty the parks are. So we have $1090
    in salaries per day to collect $880 times some factor likely less than 2 per day.

    "Law" enforcement clowns in Canada and in the USA are glorified highway robbers. In my case the cop clown actually
    lied about the reason for my ticket.

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    Post  magnumcromagnon on Sat May 02, 2020 8:02 am

    kvs, you'll love this! Non-Binary, Gender-Fluid grave robbing in New Orleans! lol1

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    Post  ahmedfire on Sat May 02, 2020 1:22 pm

    nomadski wrote:Ahmedfire, you mention well the horror of crusades. One horror that you forgot to mention, is that crusaders killed and roasted and ate the Muslim children as food. All in the name of Christ. And how about revolutionary Iran. The " Muslims" who captured and imprisoned Marxists, who refused to renounce their beliefs, were allowed to Rape virgin female prisoners. So they would not go to Hell as virgin.  Before being executed. All in the name of Muhammed. ( I believe this account to be true and  much worse accounts during  very violent and bloody revolution).


    Yes cannibalism did happene in Syria 1098 in the city of Maarat al-Numan ,30km south of Idlib .

    The people in the city had low warriors. The Crusaders promised them safe conduct if they surrendered ,they did but the Crusaders start killing everyone .The city wasn't rich and Crusaders start feeling hungry , they boiled adults in cooking-pots, impaled children on spits and devoured them grilled .

    I'm not sure about a wide rate of rape crimes in Iran but if this happened so they would be criminals and if they said "All in the name of Muhammed" they would be criminals and liars too .Rape is a very high-level crime in Islam .
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    Post  kvs on Sat May 02, 2020 6:52 pm



    Even though the ranter in the above video is a right winger he is 100% on target with the insanity of politicians bashing
    single men. In the real world, it is single mother families that are a source of a lot of criminals. That is because females
    are abusive to males and growing up without a father to protect male children from welfare queen, bitch mommies who
    PMS 24/7, leaves serious, lasting psychological scars that can make men into criminals and bad actors in society. Of
    course, if the husband is a limped dick loser who lets the wife do whatever she wants, then the male and female
    children can be messed up as well.

    I feel sorry for boys growing up in single mother families. There are all sorts of cases where the female has them
    chemically castrated or genitally mutilated with "gender reassignment" surgery. In Brazil we had the case of two lesbians
    who had a "son" killing him by cutting off his private parts which led to a year of suffering and then death. Females
    have a hate on for males. That is an undeniable fact. All this BS about love and soul mates is pure fiction. All
    families are disfunctional if the female thinks she is free to do what she wants. And feminizm has brainwashed western
    women to think that they have no obligations to "the patriarchy". Combined with the pathological female "innocence
    complex" (no woman ever admits to wrong doing except perhaps if she is before a judge being sentenced for a crime,
    but even then it is likely a ploy to get a reduced sentence), we have perfect recipe for abusive behaviour.

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    Post  kvs on Sat May 02, 2020 6:56 pm

    magnumcromagnon wrote:kvs, you'll love this! Non-Binary, Gender-Fluid grave robbing in New Orleans! lol1


    The alphabet soup fringe is composed of deviants. That is harsh but true. Some are more benign than others, but the
    veins of sociopathy run strong through them. For example, in the gay community the fight for rights is no longer about
    consenting adults having relations and "marriage", but is now about lowering the age of consent and to relable pedophilia
    as a flavour of LBGTQ. So the boundaries of degeneracy are being pushed into the darkest crevice to whitewash
    abusers and degenerates. I bet the above case will have all sorts of SJW retards on social media claim that this
    specimen has "a right" to her lifestyle choices. Next step is to abolish the concept of crime. Since criminals are
    a minority with rights too.

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    Post  GarryB on Sun May 03, 2020 6:05 am

    How about I lighten the tone... a US comedian called Christopher Titus has released a movie called "Special Unit".

    Basically a fairness in disabilities act is passed so the LAPD has to hire its quota of four handicapped undercover police officers. Titus plays their training officer and he seems to be the worst cop. The disabled actors are disabled and they are funny, but you laugh with them and not at them.

    Here is the interview scene they posted...

    Don't laugh too much because this might be a documentary of things to come...

    (Note he had a TV sitcom which he is also releasing episodes from daily which I have been enjoying too... a dysfunctional family becomes normal when 67% of families are classed as dysfunctional....)

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    Post  nomadski on Sun May 03, 2020 10:25 am

    @Ahmedfire

    Yes crimes. Rape is a crime. But worse is murder of innocents. And it happens in most circumstances. Nobody has an absolute licence for the truth. Even modern science, can be wrong or disputed. Let alone old religions. Yet they are those that adhere strictly to dogma. And old laws. That are certainly not applicable. Or simply wrong. Not a solution to the world problems. Yet it is the reactionary elements, who maintain strict adherence to religious symbolism. Devoid of social value. So that they can oppress the majority.  So was and is the case in Iran. The revolution was subverted by the reactionary right wing. Who attacked the Democrats and progressive socialists and revolutionary Muslims. All using  ( misusing) religious feelings of people against people's interests. It is true that the west is corrupt in many ways. But so is the East. Iranian ruling class, comprising of the wealthy and influential factory owners and land owners, are not revolutionary. Nor are they  progressive.  But they wear beards and bruise their foreheads. And revolve around a building to show faith. While in the Bazzar, they Rob. But they have an excellent PR..... or propaganda machine. And efficient state machine to oppress any progressive or socialist voice. They send phone messages to Cuba!  And take photograph with Fidel. While at home they sign the execution order of socialists. To fool the people. While at home they imprison troublesome workers. Or drive them out of work. Or exile their leaders. And they fabricate evidence against them. But at least now, the people's ear  is no longer deafened by the noise of the Iran / Iraq war. At that time, the counter - revolution  MKO  and others hidden  in state apparatus, had a perfect chance to murder progressives and Iranian democratic socialists. And people were looking at Saddam. Now it is difficult to do that. People are looking. So the worst they can do, is imprison.  Or perhaps they can do worse. Shoot on street and say Anarchist. The political situation in Iran is unstable. On account of power resting with this minority. Misusing religion to create a monopoly of power. Unless there is change in Iran. To create a democratic Republic. That allows a pluralistic, proportional, multi - party democracy of progressive religious elements and socialists and social Democrats and yes even Liberal Democrats and all distinct groups and classes to share power. Then Iran faces instability. Perhaps military rule. It is not just the sanctions. The problem is much deeper. And we can not continue to shoot people on the street. Call this the decline of Iranian society.
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    Post  ahmedfire on Tue May 05, 2020 12:17 am

    nomadski wrote:@Ahmedfire

    Yes crimes. Rape is a crime. But worse is murder of innocents. And it happens in most circumstances. Nobody has an absolute licence for the truth. Even modern science, can be wrong or disputed. Let alone old religions. Yet they are those that adhere strictly to dogma. And old laws. That are certainly not applicable. Or simply wrong. Not a solution to the world problems. Yet it is the reactionary elements, who maintain strict adherence to religious symbolism. Devoid of social value. So that they can oppress the majority.  So was and is the case in Iran. The revolution was subverted by the reactionary right wing. Who attacked the Democrats and progressive socialists and revolutionary Muslims. All using  ( misusing) religious feelings of people against people's interests. It is true that the west is corrupt in many ways. But so is the East. Iranian ruling class, comprising of the wealthy and influential factory owners and land owners, are not revolutionary. Nor are they  progressive.  But they wear beards and bruise their foreheads. And revolve around a building to show faith. While in the Bazzar, they Rob. But they have an excellent PR..... or propaganda machine. And efficient state machine to oppress any progressive or socialist voice. They send phone messages to Cuba!  And take photograph with Fidel. While at home they sign the execution order of socialists. To fool the people. While at home they imprison troublesome workers. Or drive them out of work. Or exile their leaders. And they fabricate evidence against them. But at least now, the people's ear  is no longer deafened by the noise of the Iran / Iraq war. At that time, the counter - revolution  MKO  and others hidden  in state apparatus, had a perfect chance to murder progressives and Iranian democratic socialists. And people were looking at Saddam. Now it is difficult to do that. People are looking. So the worst they can do, is imprison.  Or perhaps they can do worse. Shoot on street and say Anarchist. The political situation in Iran is unstable. On account of power resting with this minority. Misusing religion to create a monopoly of power. Unless there is change in Iran. To create a democratic Republic. That allows a pluralistic, proportional, multi - party democracy of progressive religious elements and socialists and social Democrats and yes even Liberal Democrats and all distinct groups and classes to share power. Then Iran faces instability. Perhaps military rule. It is not just the sanctions. The problem is much deeper. And we can not continue to shoot people on the street. Call this the decline of Iranian society.

    I agree about misusing the religion to achieve political targets or even to launch wars , Bush said that "God told me to end the tyranny in Iraq" , but as you said it's a misuse of the religions as anything that could be misused , someone could misuse the kitchen knife to kill someone else.
    ,  it doesn't mean the knife is bad .
    nomadski
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    Post  nomadski on Tue May 05, 2020 8:12 am

    Disagree. Using your example of the knife is valid. But not because the knife is good. But because the knife is bad. A good knife, can only be used for a good purpose. How?  Well there was recently an attempt by the British police to distribute safety knives to homes, where there was domestic abuse. To stop people stabbing each other. These knives lacked a sharp point. But had a sharp edge.

    The same with old religious law. A tool that can harm. Take for example the law of men being allowed to marry four wives. They say, this was for a time of war. But economic hardship, brought about by exploitation, ( capitalism) brings about the same effect. The poor unable to marry. And the rich able to marry  and take more than  their fair share of brides to be. Further damaging society. And this aspect of Islam is wrong. The wrong law. The wrong knife. But can we say Islam is wrong?  The same as we can say you or I, are wrong?   I could name many more examples. But this only one example  will suffice. It falsifies the absolutism of thought. But do the wealthy and previlaged, allow criticism? No. They call others Kafirs. Sentence to death. They can not afford to loose the unquestioning obidience of the masses. And have them question authority. Loose power. The reality is, that in the kitchen, you need many knives. As any good cook knows. And some knives can not be used and are old and rusty. And some new knives, a present for you from neighbour, are only good for cutting bread. And you do not eat sliced bread. Yet..........


    https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2019/06/14/world/europe/domestic-abuse-blunt-knives.amp.html

    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Tue May 05, 2020 9:12 am

    I think religion would be more respectable if it spoke out a bit more.

    Most religious groups will complain when it is being targeted by bigots, but how often do you hear muslim groups condemn attacks on christians or jews by muslim groups?

    How often do christian groups say... no... you are not attacking Iraq in our name because christianity is a religion of peace not war... when was the last time you saw a jewish group say... hey israel... why do you treat palestinians the way you do... no wonder they fight back...

    But no... they play the victim but never the bad guy... a bit like the Americans... we killed 3 million Vietnamese but we did it for their own good...
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    Post  nomadski on Tue May 05, 2020 10:46 am

    Agree. And as well as different old religious doctrines, sharing in the same degree of vagueness and irrelevance in many places. Even those political or religious principles that are relevant and explicit, are not adhered to. This then is no longer a case of an old rusty knife. It is the case of a bad cook. If we compare two   " Islamic " or  "  Christian" country. We see totally different social structures. In one place, there is democracy and law. Majority rule. Freedom. And another, there is nepotistic feudalism. But these differences are attributable  not entirely to religion. Since both exist equally in both places. It is then a function of  the political and social culture and political class in power.

    Iranians in power for example, think of themselves as more advanced. Condemning exile of say the Rohingya or Bahrain human rights activists. But at home they exile others, they dislike. They forgive their own crimes. They claim to fight terror of ISIS.  But they open fire on demonstrators. And claim that they were armed. They just happened to find a bunch of mint new pistols, in a box in some place. Surprising how the terrorist Iranian nation, had not used these previously. And how they did not manage to kill hundreds of security forces with these or similar guns, during demonstrations . And those in power, grow more rampant. They proclaim openly now, that they will shoot demonstrators and will remain in power.............
    ahmedfire
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    Post  ahmedfire on Tue May 05, 2020 3:40 pm

    nomadski wrote:Disagree. Using your example of the knife is valid. But not because the knife is good. But because the knife is bad. A good knife, can only be used for a good purpose. How?  Well there was recently an attempt by the British police to distribute safety knives to homes, where there was domestic abuse. To stop people stabbing each other. These knives lacked a sharp point. But had a sharp edge.

    The same with old religious law. A tool that can harm. Take for example the law of men being allowed to marry four wives. They say, this was for a time of war. But economic hardship, brought about by exploitation, ( capitalism) brings about the same effect. The poor unable to marry. And the rich able to marry  and take more than  their fair share of brides to be. Further damaging society. And this aspect of Islam is wrong. The wrong law. The wrong knife. But can we say Islam is wrong?  The same as we can say you or I, are wrong?   I could name many more examples. But this only one example  will suffice. It falsifies the absolutism of thought. But do the wealthy and previlaged, allow criticism? No. They call others Kafirs. Sentence to death. They can not afford to loose the unquestioning obidience of the masses. And have them question authority. Loose power. The reality is, that in the kitchen, you need many knives. As any good cook knows. And some knives can not be used and are old and rusty. And some new knives, a present for you from neighbour, are only good for cutting bread. And you do not eat sliced bread. Yet..........


    https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2019/06/14/world/europe/domestic-abuse-blunt-knives.amp.html


    Anything around could be used to kill, like the fork ,stone or even a cup of glass .But people designed some tools to ease the life but unfortunately those tools could be used in a nother harmful ways .

    A tool that can harm. Take for example the law of men being allowed to marry four wives. They say, this was for a time of war


    Polygyny has been practiced by many religions and cultures over the years .The Qur’an permits only a restricted and limited form of that practice.

    In seventh-century Arabia, when a man could have as many wives as he chose, to prescribe only four was a limitation, not a license to new oppression.

    Notice that the Quran permits but does not command a man to have four wives.

    In reality it is very rare. Only less than 1 % of Muslim marriages worldwide are of this nature ,the Quran stipulates that a man is responsible for the maintenance of his wife or wives .If a man has more than one wife, he has to provide separate living accommodation for each of his wives and divide his time and money and treatment equally among them. If he cannot apply this, the Qur’an stipulates that he is to have no more than one wife.

    t is unfortunate that the Western media often gives the wrong impression of what Islam is all about .Popular films like Harem give an absurd and inflated picture of the sexual life of the Muslim sheikh which reveals more about Western fantasy than it does about the reality

    I met thousands of people in my life and i didn't see even a single one who applied Polygyny .Actually it's refused from the wife too and she will go to divorce him if he did .

    Bro we can't handle one woman .Four women ? the guy will be dead at 30 . Very Happy


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    Post  ahmedfire on Tue May 05, 2020 3:48 pm

    GarryB wrote:I think religion would be more respectable if it spoke out a bit more.

    Most religious groups will complain when it is being targeted by bigots, but how often do you hear muslim groups condemn attacks on christians or jews by muslim groups?

    How often do christian groups say... no... you are not attacking Iraq in our name because christianity is a religion of peace not war... when was the last time you saw a jewish group say... hey israel... why do you treat palestinians the way you do... no wonder they fight back...

    But no... they play the victim but never the bad guy... a bit like the Americans... we killed 3 million Vietnamese but we did it for their own good...

    The attacks which done by some Muslims groups are rejected by all Muslim countries . The problem is the western countries  itself are doing the terrorism against others and such leaders will not be sorry for their terrorism because it was justfied by security not by religion !
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    Post  kvs on Tue May 05, 2020 6:22 pm

    ahmedfire wrote:
    GarryB wrote:I think religion would be more respectable if it spoke out a bit more.

    Most religious groups will complain when it is being targeted by bigots, but how often do you hear muslim groups condemn attacks on christians or jews by muslim groups?

    How often do christian groups say... no... you are not attacking Iraq in our name because christianity is a religion of peace not war... when was the last time you saw a jewish group say... hey israel... why do you treat palestinians the way you do... no wonder they fight back...

    But no... they play the victim but never the bad guy... a bit like the Americans... we killed 3 million Vietnamese but we did it for their own good...

    The attacks which done by some Muslims groups are rejected by all Muslim countries . The problem is the western countries  itself are doing the terrorism against others and such leaders will not be sorry for their terrorism because it was justfied by security not by religion !

    Clearly in Syria there was no condemnation by "Muslim countries" of the slaughter of minority religion communities.
    In fact, the jihadi vermin that were doing the slaughter had outright support by Saudi Arabia and its allies in the middle east.
    That is on top of the support from NATzO.

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    Post  nomadski on Tue May 05, 2020 7:43 pm

    @ Ahmedfire

    You are right about western media giving wrong image of Islam. Even when Islam is practiced by reasonable men. In sensible way. But still, the sensible and reasonable man, has to avoid many practices that are harmful. I can name for example, amputations, stoning, imposition of excessive and unhealthy attire for women, inheritance law and taxation law,  excessive praying, outdated  dietary advice and restrictions,  excessive reliance on charity to address social problems, allowing root cause of problems to exist, not to mention that there is no stipulations about modern life. In it's many forms. Pollution and exploitation can be practiced.  Dictatorships can be practiced. No stipulations about modern political forms. For all these we need modern science and modern social science. A new language to describe the world. Progressive Muslims, need to develop their own vocabulary to describe the world. But the world has already done this. We do not need to reinvent the wheel.

    @ KVS

    Agree. The islamist movement in many countries failed to win public support. And became an instrument of oppression against the people. A vehicle for extremism and anti - democratic movements. In Algeria it was rejected. In Egypt it was rejected. In Syria. In Sudan it helped  fight the socialist movement. In Iran the same. Indonesia  the same. Separatist conflict and partition of India  ( fault of both religions). In Afghanistan it bacame an instrument for sectarianism. In Saudi, an apparatus of oppression. In Turkey, a tendency  for sectarianism and  extremism. Sub - Sahara Africa is full of extremist Islamist, engaged in sectarian and violent conflict. Al- Shabab, Boko - Haram. Only in Lebanon, it forms a democratic movement. In Yemen, it is rejected by the socialists. But perhaps this time it is not their fault. And they did not try to impose their ideas on others. Islam, like other religious ideology, does not seem to provide the answers, in most cases.


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