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    Firearms comparison: Russia with rest of the world

    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Fri Jun 10, 2016 9:29 am

    First of all lets start by getting some crap cleared up first.

    The standard Humvee is NOT an armoured vehicle... it is the replacement for the jeep, which wasn't armoured either.

    People just looked at the enormous weight of the Humvee and assumed it must be armoured.

    Armoured Humvees on the other hand are even heavier and slower and will likely stop most assault rifle calibre rounds... I rather doubt they would stop 12.7mm rounds.


    Most MRAPs have better armour and will likely stop 12.7 as well... that is why the Russians have shown portable 30mm cannon rifles for shooting MRAPs.

    Firing at a high rate of fire does not improve penetration except against ceramic armour, where the armour is weakened by repeated impacts.

    Proper metal armour is not effected by multiple hits.

    Hitting a metal plate with 100 rounds per second just means 100 dents where it didn't penetrate instead of 10 dents where it didn't penetrate.
    Werewolf
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    Post  Werewolf on Fri Jun 10, 2016 5:00 pm

    nemrod wrote:
    I did not want to compare PKM with any other NATO's LMG, I know the reputation of PKM. In Iraq, even some marines used to fire with PKM, everyone knows its reliability. As I said, I thought it exists special amnunitions AP to penetrate Humvee, and MRAP. I thought if the PKM is not enough why not the Minigun. I know too, that RPG could penetrate any light armour vehicles, even average armoured like MRAP.  



    cracker wrote:
    I'd take Arbalet KORD RCWS on tiger over any M134 on any NATO wheeled deathtrap.

    The setbacks of the KORD is somehow cumbersome. But I doubt the KORD could penetrate MRAP, only if Russia developped special amnunitions. Nevertheless I think with PKM you can disable a MRAP. It depends of the skills of soldiers who use it.



    You believe a 7.62x54mmR GPMG can penetrate with special ammunition an armored hummvee or an actual MRAP but you doubt a 12.7x108mm biggest, most accurate and most lethal Heavy Machine Gun can not do it? Either you do not know the calibres or your knowledge of such matters are lacking behind assumptions.
    nemrod
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    Post  nemrod on Sat Jun 11, 2016 11:16 pm

    Werewolf wrote:
    You believe a 7.62x54mmR GPMG can penetrate with special ammunition an armored hummvee or an actual MRAP but you doubt a 12.7x108mm biggest, most accurate and most lethal Heavy Machine Gun can not do it? Either you do not know the calibres or your knowledge of such matters are lacking behind assumptions.

    Nope. As I said, Iam not soldier, Iam not specialist, most of you know better than me. In previous life I wanted to be soldier, but I chose the bad way to become, I wanted to be pilot, however I had a glass, I was eliminated, I did not apply more, because I felt myself humiliated. The things surrounding army matters have been always passionate me.
    At first I believed -not now- PKM could perfore Humvee, and MRAP-as U explained us, depending angles, the range, wind, opportunities, etc...- with special amnunitions AP. Oviously if the the PKM could perfore, a fortiori, the .50 calibre could do more. I was explained later that Humvees could resist at any 7.62 mm, and MRAP was designed mostly to resist at any LMG, and HMG whatever amnunitions were shot. The only way to perfore MRAP -as I was explained- is russian portable 30 mm cannon, and RPGs.
    nemrod
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    Firearms comparison: Russia with rest of the world - Page 3 Empty It is not a joke, it is rather serious.

    Post  nemrod on Sun Jun 12, 2016 2:20 am

    It is not a joke, it is rather serious. I advise US to buy more russian hardware, like for example T-62, T-72, T-90, SU-30, Mig-35, KORD, etc... and give up their M1 Abrams, F-15, F-16, F-18, F-35, M-16-or its - and oll others arrogant, expensive and malfunctioning US hardware.
    The first joke is "Accuracy is the biggest problem", indeed, but it depends the user.
    The other joke is economy for the tax payer, only ? lol!


    http://www.tampabay.com/news/military/macdill/iconic-russian-ak-47-rifle-might-some-day-be-made-in-usa/2280972
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/checkpoint/wp/2016/06/10/special-operations-command-looks-to-u-s-companies-for-homemade-ak-47s/


    U.S. Special Operations Command wants to see if it can slap a "Made in the U.S.A." label on the world's most popular weapon — the Russian-designed AK-47 assault rifle.

    In war-torn countries like Afghanistan, Iraq and Syria, where the United States has an interest, the iconic AK-47 with its curved ammo magazine is a favorite of insurgents and allies alike because it is inexpensive to own and operate. Compared to U.S. weapons like the M-4 assault rifle, it's also more durable and uses ammunition that's easier to find.

    Now, U.S. Special Operations Command is scouting for companies that might have the interest and ability to manufacture the ubiquitous gun and other Soviet-bloc-era weapons here in the United States.

    Last month, the command, based at MacDill Air Force Base, sent out a market research request regarding what it calls "non-standard weapons."

    This includes Russian-designed guns like the AK-47 and other similar assault rifles, as well as sniper rifles like the Dragunov, light machine guns like the PKM, and heavy machine guns like the DShK and the KPV.

    In soliciting U.S. manufacturers, SOCom has taxpayers in mind as well as its overseas allies, said Lt. Cmdr. Matt Allen, a spokesman for the command.

    Allen said "a U.S.-based source would be a good use of taxpayer funds, while also delivering the weapons our partners not only need to fight extremists, but also the ones they know how to use, know how to fix and have the supplies in their regions to maintain."

    Local gunmakers contacted by the Tampa Bay Times questioned how U.S. manufacturers could compete with foreign companies, which already make the weapons cheaply. Allen said SOCom won't know for certain about things like availability, quality and price until it asks. The command gets some of the weapons from contractors buying them through approved sources around the world.

    SOCom, tasked with training and equipping commandos and synchronizing the war on terror, provides weapons to allies at the behest of headquarters commands like U.S. Central Command. CentCom, also based at MacDill, has overall control of U.S. military operations in the Middle East.

    Exactly which groups of allies might get AK-47s from the United States is a question for CentCom, Allen said. A CentCom spokesman, citing operational security concerns, declined to comment.

    But Scott Neil, a retired Green Beret master sergeant, said the foreign-made versions have been going to U.S. allies like Iraqi and Afghan security forces, the Kurdish Peshmerga, and Syrian Kurdish and Arab partners.

    "They are much more familiar with these weapons," said Neil, who lives in Tampa and helped train indigenous forces on how to use firearms like those listed in SOCom's solicitation.

    The AK-47, Dragunov sniper rifles and PKM light machine guns are simple to operate and maintain, Neil said. The 7.62mm ammo is more readily available and cheaper than the American ammo, which is typically the smaller 5.56mm so-called NATO round, he said.

    The AK-47, designed by Russian Lt. Gen. Mikhail Kalashnikov and first produced in 1947, is renowned for its utility, but has drawbacks as well, said Neil, who came under fire from Russian-made weapons a number of times.

    Accuracy is the biggest problem, Neil said.

    "We would joke around and say if you just stand still, they won't hit you. If you look at an AK-47, the first selector is fully automatic. A lot of times it is 'spray and pray and inshallah,' " Neil said, using the Arabic word for "God willing."

    The AK-47 was designed to be produced quickly and cheaply. Between 70 million to 150 million of the weapons are in use around the world, said Aaron Karp, a senior lecturer at Old Dominion University in Virginia and senior consultant with the Small Arms Survey, a nonprofit organization that monitors the international arms business.

    Estimates of the global count of other weapons in the SOCom solicitation are virtually impossible to make, Karp said.

    The economics might make it hard for SOCom to find U.S. manufacturers who are interested in producing the weapons, Karp said. In a major small arms purchase during President George W. Bush's administration, for example, foreign-made weapons like AK-47s were going for just $100 apiece.

    Greg Frazee, CEO of the Tampa-based Trident Arms, agreed there would be a number of hurdles for U.S. manufacturers in trying to provide the weapons as cheaply as they're available from manufacturers in Russia, China, Bulgaria and elsewhere.

    "It is cheaper to lay hands on a couple containers of foreign AK-47s from overseas than manufacturing them and then exporting them," Frazee said.

    Still, a government contract would increase the appeal for manufacturers because it would guarantee sales. Frazee said he may respond to SOCom's solicitation, which he learned about from the Tampa Bay Times.

    "At the end of the day, is the juice worth the squeeze?" he asked. "They are looking for capabilities more so than nailing down a number, so we will probably end up responding."

    Mark Serbu, founder and president of Tampa-based Serbu Arms, said he is surprised SOCom is considering looking for manufacturers that would make Russian-designed weapons here.

    "The factories around the world set up to do that are doing it with dirt-cheap labor," said Serbu, who once owned a fully automatic AK-47 used in Red Dawn, the popular movie about a Soviet invasion of the United States. "I don't know how to compete here. I am surprised they are trying to do that. It doesn't make sense."

    One company in Florida that makes a civilian version of the AK-47 is too busy at the moment to consider the SOCom solicitation.

    Kalashnikov USA, which recently opened a plant in Pompano Beach, is "totally focused on ramping up the new facility" to fulfill existing orders, said spokeswoman Laura Burgess.

    The company used to import weapons from Kalashnikov Concern, the original AK-47 manufacturer in Moscow. Then in 2014, President Barack Obama imposed sanctions against Russia following its annexation of Crimea. CNN Money reported that Kalashnikov USA severed all ties with the Russian company.

    Kalashnikov USA is no longer under any sanctions, Burgess said.

    Allen, the SOCom spokesman, described the solicitation as a starting point and not a formal bidding process. The deadline to respond is Friday.

    "This will help us explore what capacity and capability there is within the U.S. industrial base," he said. "After that, we will better understand what could be provided, which missions they may be appropriate to support and to which approved partners they could be beneficial."

    Contact Howard Altman at haltman@tampabay.com or (813) 225-3112. Follow @haltman.
    nemrod
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    Post  nemrod on Sun Jun 12, 2016 2:25 am

    In this time economic depression US are interested to buy russian weapons origin. Finally the PKM won versus the Minigun by KO  cheers

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/checkpoint/wp/2016/06/10/special-operations-command-looks-to-u-s-companies-for-homemade-ak-47s/


    Special Operations Command looks to U.S. companies for homemade AK-47s

    By Thomas Gibbons-Neff June 10

    U.S. Special Operations Command, which oversees some of America’s most elite forces, is exploring the possibility of having American companies manufacture Russian-designed weapons, such as the AK-47, that are ubiquitous in war zones.

    First reported by the Tampa Bay Times, Special Operations Command, or SOCOM, posted a “sources sought” solicitation for non-standard weapons on a federal contracting site early last month. In April, the command posted a similar notice for non-standard weapon ammunition. The term “non standard” is used for weapons not frequently employed by the United States or its NATO allies.

    [Report: U.S. contractor tried to arm Syrian rebels with defective grenades By]

    “For this solicitation, we are exploring capabilities and capacity within [the United States’] industrial base to build the types of weapons many of our foreign partners use,” Navy Cmdr. Matt Allen, a SOCOM spokesman, said in an email.

    SOCOM’s solicitation includes weapons such as the iconic “AK-47″ rifle, a catchall designator for Kalashnikov-variant rifles designed to fire a certain type of ammunition and often identified by their distinctive curved magazines. Other weapons include the SVD, a unique looking sniper rifle that has likely killed thousands of U.S. troops since it was first introduced in the years leading up to the Vietnam War. Additionally, Russian medium and heavy machine guns as well as 14.5mm aircraft guns are included in the notice.

    While the United States has sent American-made weapons to the Afghan military and Iraqi security forces, the presence of U.S. equipment in foreign hands can be problematic. Recently, U.S.-backed groups in Syria have been spotted with American equipment, including heavy machine guns and sniper rifles. Although likely more accurate than their Soviet-style counterparts, U.S. weapons can make the fighters carrying them targets for other factions.

    Aside from standing out, U.S. weapons can also be difficult to maintain, prompting Special Operations Command and the CIA to procure and supply weapons that their allies are used to fighting with, such as Kalashnikovs. To do this, the U.S. government often contracts with smaller companies to buy and ship the weapons.

    In 2015, Buzzfeed chronicled a $28 million contract given to a company called Purple Shovel to send weapons to U.S.-backed Syrian rebels. The contract ran into a myriad of problems after a Bulgarian company shipped faulty rocket-propelled grenades through Purple Shovel to SOCOM, Buzzfeed reported.

    According to Allen, an American source for the weapons would be a “good use of taxpayer funds, while also delivering the weapons our partners not only need to fight extremists, but also the ones they know how to use, know how to fix and have the supplies to maintain.”

    Checkpoint newsletter

    Military, defense and security at home and abroad.

    Producing the weapons in the United States would also allow the government to enforce greater control over their manufacture and distribution.

    [Administration searches for new approach to aiding rebels in Syria]

    “Building them here would normalize transfers, make oversight easier, and prevent ad-hoc type arrangements like we’ve seen in the past” said Matt Schroeder, a senior researcher with Small Arms Survey, a Geneva-based research group that tracks weapons.

    However, it still might be cheaper to buy them elsewhere. Weapons based on Mikhail Kalashnikov’s iconic design have been built and exported by dozens of countries during and after the Cold War. Before the collapse of the Soviet Union, the rifle’s design was distributed to Eastern-bloc countries for manufacture, and only in recent years has Russia’s main arms exporter attempted to clamp down on copyright infringements.

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    cracker

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    Post  cracker on Fri Jun 24, 2016 3:16 pm

    12.7x108 AP or API ball (can't remember the name but there is the post war B32 still in service + newer rounds) can penetrate close to 30mm of steel... so, yeah, if the target isn't sloped, the MRAP or light APCs can't resist fire from KORD or NSV or DShKM.

    But this is 28-30mm of RHA, you have to recall that all these light armor have very high hardness steel plates of small thickness but very high strength, penetration of 12.7mm can be reduced to 10-15mm against such steel.

    So, unless you can score at close range and in parts where it's flat, it's not a good mesure for frontal engagement at medium range.

    Russians should definitely develop a SLAP round for the 12.7mm caliber, seeing that they remove 14.5mm from arsenal and have a big gap between 12.7 and 30mm now, the 12.7mm with SLAP performs as good as 14.5mm API.
    nemrod
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    Post  nemrod on Fri Jun 24, 2016 5:01 pm

    cracker wrote:.
    Russians should definitely develop a SLAP round for the 12.7mm caliber, seeing that they remove 14.5mm from arsenal and have a big gap between 12.7 and 30mm now, the 12.7mm with SLAP performs as good as 14.5mm API.

    Thx cracker for your explanations.
    I ignored until now the existence of the SLAP. In fact unconsciously when I open this topic I thought about such special ammunitions. I did not imagine one second that Russia did not think about such cartridge for its light calibres like PKM, AKM, AK-10, AK-74 and even for heavy calibres like the 12.7 mm, as many US soldiers are more and more using bullet proof class 3 to 5, reducing the impact of 5.45, and even 7.62 mm. But as I was explained above, against any armoured vehicles RPGs are far the best idea, and it is more logical. The light machine guns like the PKM, or AK are intended against infantry, and cover soldiers with enough rate of fire.

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