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Walther von Oldenburg
BlackArrow
KoTeMoRe
KomissarBojanchev
George1
GarryB
starman
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sepheronx
kvs
nastle77
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    Soviet weaponry/equipment in Middle Eastern wars

    starman
    starman


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    Post  starman Sun Apr 22, 2018 7:58 pm

    Walther von Oldenburg wrote:
    The best chances he had was firing all available Scuds on coalition bases after which he would have had B-2s carpet bombing Baghdad within days.

    The Iraqis fired some SCUDs on Saudi and Israeli cities but the US didn't bomb Baghdad.
    archangelski
    archangelski


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    Post  archangelski Sun Apr 22, 2018 8:08 pm

    starman wrote:
    Walther von Oldenburg wrote:
    The best chances he had was firing all available Scuds on coalition bases after which he would have had B-2s carpet bombing Baghdad within days.

    The Iraqis fired some SCUDs on Saudi and Israeli cities but the US didn't bomb Baghdad.

    You're kidding ?
    KomissarBojanchev
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    Post  KomissarBojanchev Mon Apr 23, 2018 4:23 am

    starman wrote:
    KomissarBojanchev wrote:
    Do you think it happened because of the F-4's superiority was a factor?

    I think IAF Mirages scored most of the kills. From what I've read, their missiles were better than Soviet atolls. But the main reason for the defeat, or the lopsided resiult, was simply that the Soviets fell into a trap.

    Also what do you mean even the EAF had more experience? Are you saying the soviets couldnt fly their own aircraft correctly?

    Laughing I meant more experience in fighting the IAF. Interestingly, in one of his volumes on Arab MIGs, Cooper says the Egyptians were the first to use the ambush tactic, late in '68, when, he wrote, EAF MIGs got four Mirages. But the Israelis used the tactic on many subsequent occasions, including September 1973 when SAF MIGs were ambushed.

    And what was so unique and and invulnerable in israeli pilots compared to NATO ones?
    starman
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    Post  starman Tue Apr 24, 2018 12:48 pm

    archangelski wrote:
    You're kidding ?

    Not carpet bombing, as a previous poster wrote.
    starman
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    Post  starman Tue Apr 24, 2018 12:50 pm

    KomissarBojanchev wrote:
    And what was so unique and and invulnerable in israeli pilots compared to NATO ones?

    They weren't invulnerable, but they had more experience in actual combat with Soviet made jets, with pilots trained by Russians, than NATO pilots.
    archangelski
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    Post  archangelski Tue Apr 24, 2018 6:28 pm

    starman wrote:
    archangelski wrote:
    You're kidding ?

    Not carpet bombing, as a previous poster wrote.

    I prefer, because Baghdad has actually suffered intense bombings... : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Qq3L6EY3zg
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    nastle77


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    Post  nastle77 Fri Feb 21, 2020 7:07 pm

    MIrage III and Mig-21M/SM are probably comparable

    Mig-21 does not even come close to F-4 interms of an air superority fighter

    but Mig-21 is a pretty good point defence interceptor

    so in my humble opinion

    israelis had the following advs

    1 more experienced pilots
    2 favorable tactical situation /element of surprise
    3 outnumbered the migs locally

    why were the soviet mig21 even operating in the offensive role when their piots are not trained for this nor is the fishbed suited for it ?


    George1
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    Post  George1 Sun Dec 03, 2023 3:54 pm

    Qaddafi is criticizing soviet arms quality in 1982 during Lebanon war:

    “We have finally recognized that our relations are just of a commercial and not of a friendly nature. Your arms you are selling to us are looking to us like children’s toys. Last night 19 Syrian aircraft were shot down. Syria does actually not have a working air defense any more... "


    https://digitalarchive.wilsoncenter.org/document/note-qaddafis-reaction-socialist-support-arab-countries-war-lebanon
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    Belisarius


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    Post  Belisarius Sun Dec 03, 2023 7:10 pm

    Syria does actually not have a working air defense any more...


    Russian SAM missiles were good, but they were poorly operated by the Syrians. They were in fixed positions, with the radars in valleys instead of mountains. Their positions were not camouflaged which only made it easier to detect targets from a distance. The Syrians did not follow the Russian doctrine of maneuver and camouflage. Russian manuals cite alternating firing positions, carrying out defensive ambushes, false positions and regular repositioning to confuse enemy intelligence.

    I would not judge the quality of equipment based on the performance of an operator who placed radars, of anti-aircraft defense batteries, in valleys...
    lancelot
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    Post  lancelot Sun Dec 03, 2023 7:34 pm

    The MiG-23 aircraft that the Soviets sold to the Middle East were pretty much crap. They had outdated radars and missiles.
    This was part of the reason why they failed hard against the fighters that Israel had. They never exported the good ones to the Middle East.

    With the T-72 the same thing happened where the tanks were sold without the quartz composite filler.
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Mon Dec 04, 2023 8:14 am

    The stuff they bought was not amazing but it wasn't junk either and was certainly better than anything they could make for themselves.

    The west wasn't offering anything better either.
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    ALAMO


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    Post  ALAMO Mon Dec 04, 2023 9:09 am

    lancelot wrote:The MiG-23 aircraft that the Soviets sold to the Middle East were pretty much crap. They had outdated radars and missiles.
    This was part of the reason why they failed hard against the fighters that Israel had. They never exported the good ones to the Middle East.

    With the T-72 the same thing happened where the tanks were sold without the quartz composite filler.

    That's because it was an optically pimped-up MiG-21...

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