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    Russian Navy: Status & News #3

    Isos
    Isos


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    Post  Isos Fri Jul 21, 2017 5:14 pm

    JohninMK wrote:At the link is a really good video made by Danish TV of the Typhoon and its escorts sailing through Danish waters today on a flat sea. That is a big sub! Not sure why the marine? on guard at the back of the conning tower has a facemask on tho'.

    You can see one good reason for going all the way on the surface, noise. No-ones going to build a new noise profile with that amount of wave and wash.

    http://nyheder.tv2.dk/samfund/2017-07-21-se-enorm-russisk-atomubaad-sejle-i-dansk-farvand

    Nato has already it's noise signature. Same for Russia and Nato boomers. There are articles of Akula's trying to follow English new uild boomers while it was leaving it's homeport. They probably succeed as the Akula followed it and a English SSN was send to follow the Akula.
    JohninMK
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    Post  JohninMK Fri Jul 21, 2017 6:09 pm

    Isos wrote:
    JohninMK wrote:At the link is a really good video made by Danish TV of the Typhoon and its escorts sailing through Danish waters today on a flat sea. That is a big sub! Not sure why the marine? on guard at the back of the conning tower has a facemask on tho'.

    You can see one good reason for going all the way on the surface, noise. No-ones going to build a new noise profile with that amount of wave and wash.

    http://nyheder.tv2.dk/samfund/2017-07-21-se-enorm-russisk-atomubaad-sejle-i-dansk-farvand

    Nato has already it's noise signature. Same for Russia and Nato boomers. There are articles of Akula's trying to follow English new uild boomers while it was leaving it's homeport. They probably succeed as the Akula followed it and a English SSN was send to follow the Akula.
    I understand that but it would always be useful to have an up to date sound file. They could end up with a little convoy!
    Isos
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    Post  Isos Fri Jul 21, 2017 6:30 pm

    JohninMK wrote:
    Isos wrote:
    JohninMK wrote:At the link is a really good video made by Danish TV of the Typhoon and its escorts sailing through Danish waters today on a flat sea. That is a big sub! Not sure why the marine? on guard at the back of the conning tower has a facemask on tho'.

    You can see one good reason for going all the way on the surface, noise. No-ones going to build a new noise profile with that amount of wave and wash.

    http://nyheder.tv2.dk/samfund/2017-07-21-se-enorm-russisk-atomubaad-sejle-i-dansk-farvand

    Nato has already it's noise signature. Same for Russia and Nato boomers. There are articles of Akula's trying to follow English new uild boomers while it was leaving it's homeport. They probably succeed as the Akula followed it and a English SSN was send to follow the Akula.
    I understand that but it would always be useful to have an up to date sound file. They could end up with a little convoy!

    They know what they are doing. If noise must be kept secret they can produce much more noise by hydrophones or some other things to parasite any sonar. Like puting reflector on Stealth fighters so that no one can know the true RCS.
    Kimppis
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    Post  Kimppis Fri Jul 21, 2017 9:05 pm

    To be fair, considering ruble's current exchange rate, the dollar figures can be very misleading... Also, considering the fact that they are simultaneously building like 6 Yasens, it's IMO likely that a single sub doesn't even cost 1 billion dollars, let alone 2 or 3. Again, with the current exchange rate. Of course, to get a more "accurate" number you can probably almost double that (i.e. use 2013-14's exchange rate), but there's no way that even then the cost is anywhere close to $3.5 billion. That would make them totally unaffordable.
    SeigSoloyvov
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov Fri Jul 21, 2017 10:29 pm

    Kimppis wrote:To be fair, considering ruble's current exchange rate, the dollar figures can be very misleading... Also, considering the fact that they are simultaneously building like 6 Yasens, it's IMO likely that a single sub doesn't even cost 1 billion dollars, let alone 2 or 3. Again, with the current exchange rate. Of course, to get a more "accurate" number you can probably almost double that (i.e. use 2013-14's exchange rate), but there's no way that even then the cost is anywhere close to $3.5 billion. That would make them totally unaffordable.

    Incorrect Sea wolves cost around 3 billion dollars each and it cost a total of 17 billion to build four Triomphant-class submarines so even if I divide that evenly by four that's still four billion per sub, yeah submarines can get that expensive.
    Kimppis
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    Post  Kimppis Fri Jul 21, 2017 10:50 pm

    Well, we're talking about US dollars and Russia. Russian weapons systems are much cheaper in dollar terms, especially now after the devaluation. Russian military budget - in dollars - is something like $50 billion. So there is no way that Yasens are that expensive, considering everything else they're procuring at the moment. Not to mention that even the US only built 3 Seawolfs... the Russian military is already getting double the number of Yasen-Ms. And talking about dollar prices and Russian military equipment (especially domestic orders) is really problematic in general, especially now. We should be talking about the costs in rubles, but how do you convert those into other currencies?
    SeigSoloyvov
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov Fri Jul 21, 2017 11:52 pm

    Kimppis wrote:Well, we're talking about US dollars and Russia. Russian weapons systems are much cheaper in dollar terms, especially now after the devaluation. Russian military budget - in dollars - is something like $50 billion. So there is no way that Yasens are that expensive, considering everything else they're procuring at the moment. Not to mention that even the US only built 3 Seawolfs... the Russian military is already getting double the number of Yasen-Ms. And talking about dollar prices and Russian military equipment (especially domestic orders) is really problematic in general, especially now. We should be talking about the costs in rubles, but how do you convert those into other currencies?

    3 bill USD converts to 177787500000 Rubles

    4 Bill USD converts to 237050000000 Rubles
    Big_Gazza
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    Post  Big_Gazza Sat Jul 22, 2017 3:09 am

    Kimppis wrote:Well, we're talking about US dollars and Russia. Russian weapons systems are much cheaper in dollar terms, especially now after the devaluation. Russian military budget - in dollars - is something like $50 billion. So there is no way that Yasens are that expensive, considering everything else they're procuring at the moment. Not to mention that even the US only built 3 Seawolfs... the Russian military is already getting double the number of Yasen-Ms. And talking about dollar prices and Russian military equipment (especially domestic orders) is really problematic in general, especially now. We should be talking about the costs in rubles, but how do you convert those into other currencies?

    Probably the best methodology is to estimate the cost to replicate Russian military R&D and procurement programs using Western MIC. This is probably the only way to effectively compare two fundamentally different approaches to military procurement, but we (the Western establishment) don't do it as the current agenda is to downplay Russian capabilities and exaggerate our military capabilities over them (ie flag waving), so the USD comparison wins out to downplay the Ruskies. Once the true nature of Russian (and Chinese) hard power becomes a reality that can no longer be denied, the emphasis will likely change to Cold War practices of exaggerating Soviet (Russian) power to scare the ignorant masses and create public support for much increased MIC expenditures. Then we'll flip and apply a different model, but distort it to the opposite extreme.....
    miketheterrible
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    Post  miketheterrible Sat Jul 22, 2017 4:56 am

    You guys also need to take into account that when Yasen was being built, initially, it was using all new kind of technology that, especially at the time, was much harder to come by within Russia itself so all new technology being built behind it. As well, then a program tends to take too long, costs start to overrun and the project ends up being far more expensive than it should have been.

    Does it warrant to abandon it and go with something else? Sometimes. I would wager that a newer sub that borrow tech from the Borei's mixed in with Yasen and other ships may be best approach.
    Singular_Transform
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    Post  Singular_Transform Sat Jul 22, 2017 7:29 am

    The Severodvinsk was so "cheap" because it was half finished, they had on stock the sonar, reactor and so on.


    For the Kazan they had to re-build the submarine component manufacturing industrial base.

    That is a bit more expensive than anything else.


    However the Yassen is still expensive due to the deep diving capability, vertical launch tubes and strong reactor.


    The tomahawk vls is 7.7 meters long, the tomahawk is 6.6 meters.

    The onyx is 8.9 meters long, the vls is at least 10 meters long, means the Virginia is too small to incorporate the Onyx.

    the yassen cross section is more than two times bigger than the virginia, and it means twice as big reactor.
    If you add to all of this the deeper diving deep for the yassen, then it is quite oblivious the price ratio between the yassen/virginia is at least two, but probably three.



    KiloGolf
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    Post  KiloGolf Sat Jul 22, 2017 9:16 am

    Singular_Transform wrote:If  you add to all of this the deeper diving deep for the yassen, then it is quite oblivious the price ratio between the yassen/virginia is at least two, but probably three.

    And there's barely a single Yassen active (x10 VLS) vs. 13 Virginias (x12 VLS).
    The problem here is industry-related, if not corruption as well. Russia can't build up the numbers, it takes far too many years to get a single SSN/SSGN/SSBN out and then some, for it to be active.
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    Post  miketheterrible Sat Jul 22, 2017 9:22 am

    Improved Kilo takes 2 - 3 years.  Borei took longer due to circumstances in past. That is resolved. Yassen due to similar issue, and ongoing.

    Much like the vaunted "Russia couldn't build ships in right time" when their section of mistral came right on schedule.

    The problem is people at top. Not the builders.
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    Post  KiloGolf Sat Jul 22, 2017 9:25 am

    miketheterrible wrote:Improved Kilo takes 2 - 3 years.  Borei took longer due to circumstances in past. That is resolved. Yassen due to similar issue, and ongoing.

    Much like the vaunted "Russia couldn't build ships in right time" when their section of mistral came right on schedule.

    The problem is people at top. Not the builders.

    If Kilo and Mistral is where you set the bar, then it enforces my point.
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    Post  miketheterrible Sat Jul 22, 2017 9:29 am

    It isn't. Its an example since you seems to include SSN. Which leads me to believe you are at your typical bullfighting and exaggeration.

    None the less, they seem content in their ability to produce SSBM contrary to your belief. Actually, haven't heard the mod complained while they were more than willing to openly complain about various of their systems.

    But then again, I'm talking to IKE
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    Post  KiloGolf Sat Jul 22, 2017 9:31 am

    miketheterrible wrote:It isn't. Its an example since you seems to include SSN. Which leads me to believe you are at your typical bullfighting and exaggeration.

    None the less, they seem content in their ability to produce SSBM contrary to your belief. Actually, haven't heard the mod complained while they were more than willing to openly complain about various of their systems.

    But then again, I'm talking to IKE

    SSN not SSK.
    miketheterrible
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    Post  miketheterrible Sat Jul 22, 2017 9:39 am

    Regardless, all the same effect. If they decided not to bother with the Yassen, then they would have built newer Akulas probably at a fraction of the cost and much better adoption pace. But, certain heads wanted something brand new. Understandable. That, and certain tech was probably not available as well. So, they went for something that was quite a bit ambitious, especially 4 and a half years since bankruptcy. Have to say, that can burn a few holes were holes already exist. Borei became a different beast altogether. First unit followed suit with the Yassan. Both were thought to share the same fate. But, the government insisted and pushed its development since we all know how important it is. But, low and behold price became a factor. Now, design change again and next Boreis are different than that of previous.

    I would say, the blame is on the authorities for not have a consistent thought process on what they wanted. When they showed exactly what they wanted, they end up producing at a decent speed.

    Will they learn from Yassan? Maybe. Would it have been better than producing newer Akulas? I can't say since I don't know the tech between the two.
    KiloGolf
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    Post  KiloGolf Sat Jul 22, 2017 10:19 am

    miketheterrible wrote:Regardless, all the same effect. If they decided not to bother with the Yassen, then they would have built newer Akulas probably at a fraction of the cost and much better adoption pace.

    That would have been better for them. More Oscars, Akulas and even Deltas. Refine them, sure. Go for something completely new? No. Well they did that and now they have a tiny fleet of new boomers and a collection of obsolete Soviet-era dinosaurs that require unreasonable amount of crew and maintenance.

    And yeah, the single active Typhoon (merely an experimental test-bed, not active in patrols/deterrent), makes very nice videos across the Jutland. scratch
    Singular_Transform
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    Post  Singular_Transform Sat Jul 22, 2017 10:27 am

    KiloGolf wrote:
    Singular_Transform wrote:If  you add to all of this the deeper diving deep for the yassen, then it is quite oblivious the price ratio between the yassen/virginia is at least two, but probably three.

    And there's barely a single Yassen active (x10 VLS) vs. 13 Virginias (x12 VLS).
    The problem here is industry-related, if not corruption as well. Russia can't build up the numbers, it takes far too many years to get a single SSN/SSGN/SSBN out and then some, for it to be active.

    There as big difference between the kilo and virginia as between the yassen and virginia.


    And Russia has to make complete industries to make those submarines.

    And it seems like the second one is finished, now it is in the final debugging stages ( they welded the submarine, so everything now is in it.)


    The US strugled as much ( or more) with the F35 to rebuild its industrial base.
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    Post  Singular_Transform Sat Jul 22, 2017 10:28 am

    KiloGolf wrote:
    miketheterrible wrote:Regardless, all the same effect. If they decided not to bother with the Yassen, then they would have built newer Akulas probably at a fraction of the cost and much better adoption pace.

    That would have been better for them. More Oscars, Akulas and even Deltas. Refine them, sure. Go for something completely new? No. Well they did that and now they have a tiny fleet of new boomers and a collection of obsolete Soviet-era dinosaurs that require unreasonable amount of crew and maintenance.

    And yeah, the single active Typhoon (merely an experimental test-bed, not active in patrols/deterrent), makes very nice videos across the Jutland. scratch


    The Akula is very expensive as well.

    The oscars are more expensive than the yassen.
    Way more.

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    Post  KiloGolf Sat Jul 22, 2017 10:43 am

    Singular_Transform wrote:The Akula is very expensive as well.

    The oscars are more expensive than the yassen.
    Way more.

    The price would drop if they kept building and refining them, instead of pumping R&D to one-sub classes every 1.5 decade. There was nothing evolutionary wrong with any of these classes to stop building them and try to reinvent the wheel when they barely have/had money to maintain decent amount and quality of boomers in the water. And before anybody mentions the Soviet collapse and inability to source parts and so on from CIS countries, they had all the time in the world (actual decades) to do that, while at the same time they'd keep getting a proper SSGN every 5 years, a decent SSBN and probably two SSNs in the same period of time.

    We're past the middle of 2017 and all Russia has to show for, since they lost the Kursk, in terms of active nuclear-powered subs is a single Yasen (with Soviet-sourced parts) and just three Dolgorukiys (of which one used a fair bit of 90s stuff here and there).

    That's what they've been up to for over 20 years. 3 boomers and an SSN/SSGN hybrid (worst of both world's if you ask me) to show with all that tech, base and know-how that they've inherited from the USSR. It's a frickin sideshow for a country that considers itself a global power. Barely at the level France and the UK.


    Last edited by KiloGolf on Sat Jul 22, 2017 11:27 am; edited 2 times in total
    SeigSoloyvov
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov Sat Jul 22, 2017 11:00 am

    Singular_Transform wrote:
    KiloGolf wrote:
    miketheterrible wrote:Regardless, all the same effect. If they decided not to bother with the Yassen, then they would have built newer Akulas probably at a fraction of the cost and much better adoption pace.

    That would have been better for them. More Oscars, Akulas and even Deltas. Refine them, sure. Go for something completely new? No. Well they did that and now they have a tiny fleet of new boomers and a collection of obsolete Soviet-era dinosaurs that require unreasonable amount of crew and maintenance.

    And yeah, the single active Typhoon (merely an experimental test-bed, not active in patrols/deterrent), makes very nice videos across the Jutland. scratch


    The Akula is very expensive as well.

    The oscars are more expensive than the yassen.
    Way more.


    Based on what? I never seen any official price tag in regards to the Oscar's so where you getting this notion? show me what the price tag for the Oscar is.

    akula cost an average of 1.5 Billion dollars each.

    Yasen's M classes are like 3 Bill per date.

    Yes Russia can afford such subs because it's not ordering them all at once each purchase it basically a year spread apart when the budget resets it's self. So since 2013 every year when they ordered one Yasen when the budget refreshes.

    These claims Russia cannot afford multiple yasen's...is honestly amusing coming from a pro-russian military fourm.

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    Post  KiloGolf Sat Jul 22, 2017 11:17 am

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:These claims Russia cannot afford multiple yasen's...is honestly amusing coming from a pro-russian military fourm.  

    Money is not a problem for them. Bad decision, bad planning and corruption is.

    Since 2000 they could have easily built 2-3 more Akula SSNs and 2 more Oscar II SSGNs. And those would have served them better than the one Yasen that they're stuck with right now. And they wouldn't have to go all OMFGDelta!!111 on the sight of a dozen of Kalibrs fired from a gunboat flotilla or half a dozen fired from a Kilo SSK. One refined Oscar could have delivered 5 and 10 times that firepower and loiter for months, then fire again, whenever deemed necessary. Try loitering the high seas on them gunboats/corvettes for 2-3 months lol1
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    Post  George1 Sat Jul 22, 2017 11:33 am

    July 21, 2017, the Russian heavy nuclear submarine missile cruiser of strategic purpose "Dmitry Donskoy" project 941 was at the Baltic Straits and entered the Baltic Sea. "Dmitry Donskoy" together with the heavy nuclear-powered cruiser "Peter the Great" project 11442 make the transition from the Northern Fleet to St. Petersburg to participate in the naval parade in honor of the Navy Day.

    Russian Navy: Status & News #3 - Page 24 4481614_original
    Russian Navy: Status & News #3 - Page 24 4481869_original
    Russian Navy: Status & News #3 - Page 24 4482328_original
    Russian Navy: Status & News #3 - Page 24 4482735_original

    http://bmpd.livejournal.com/2742941.html
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    Post  KiloGolf Sat Jul 22, 2017 11:49 am

    George1 wrote:heavy nuclear submarine missile cruiser of strategic purpose "Dmitry Donskoy" project 941

    Helluva big  title for what is truly RuN's SLBM test-bed. unshaven
    I'm not sure if it qualifies as either strategic or cruiser.
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Sat Jul 22, 2017 12:14 pm

    Yes, Russia doesn't need as many SSNs as the US.

    You can't say that though.

    Russia needs rather more SSKs than the US does, so why does it not need as many SSNs?

    How many SSNs does it need?

    Is the number of US SSNs a factor in how many Russia needs or is it totally irrelevant?

    What does Russia need SSNs for?

    What are its future plans?

    Correct, just pointed out that's it's BS.

    And keep doing that... when you just ignore their bullshit you are accepting their lies as truth... and you become as wrong as them.

    Well, if someone here gets fooled by it, then it's his problem, not mine. I think that most of us in this forum are somewhat immune to western propaganda, and learnt to take articles like this one with a grain of salt.

    So if I start calling you a liar after a year or so it will be OK because only a fool would be fooled by it because everyone else would have known you long enough to know you don't lie on purpose?

    Navyreco is run by french analysts and editors, so I can't really blame them, but there is one thing that they are doing good most of the time.

    So you are supporting my view... if it is OK for a western website to promote anti Russian propaganda... and you can't blame them for that, then as a mod on a pro Russian website I need to remonstrate any poster who posts their propaganda bullshit so casual members who don't know any better see this crap for what it is.

    Can't blame me for that now can you... Smile

    The author of this article has all rights to write down what he/she thinks about Russia, but in this case there are things that he/she isn't entirely correct about. Maybe he/she lacks enough knowledge about this and that about Russia, or maybe it is mandatory to him/her to slam Russia time to time.

    Indeed it might be a requirement for them to keep their job to tow the party line and post crap.

    I can say that Vlad is a good boss and does not tell me what I can or cannot say, so when I say this is anti russian propaganda I do it for love not money. Smile

    And if you keep beleieving it, your mental capabilities are questionable.

    Not true... if you keep hearing it but no one counter acts the signal then it is normal to think that way. All the western media outlets talk about stories from all angles and not picking sides, but none of them actually deliver on those promises. Simply checking Russia Today or Aljezera will show there are different points of view that CNN and the BBC do not cover, so even if RT and Aljiz are bullshit at least they prove CNN and the BBC can't be telling the truth because they clearly aren't showing the Russian or Arabic view... right or wrong.

    If you can't access those different media you would never know however.

    Propaganda works best on people with little to no common sense, but it hardly affects the ones with knowledge and logical thinking.

    Actually the whole idea of common sense is silly... for millions of years it was common sense that man could never fly, or the world is flat.

    Propaganda works best on people without the time or interested to investigate things themselves... which is often the majority these days, though the internet is a good tool against that.

    If you still get upset by it, then it is your fault, propagandists have achieved their goal with you.

    The propagandists want me to shut up and accept their bullshit as truth... it is you and others who accept their crap that are bound in their spell. When you ignore it and even repeat it you are spreading their word... doing their work.

    It's not my, neither your responsibility to say to someone that what is right and what isn't, everyone should come up with his own version, and maybe he will start to discuss it, maybe not. One thing is common in most members of this forum that we are like-minded about Russia, and we tend not to listen to western naysayers.

    If someone says all blacks are dumber than whites I will also point out that this is wrong, or that all Americans are fat lazy bastards, who lie cheat and steal from everyone else on the planet to sustain their extravagant lifestyles... the reality is there are some very smart and some very dumb people and most of us are average, and that is all colours and races, and it is the 1% of Americans that are the enemy... but also the 1% of Britains and even 1% Russians... money is power and power corrupts... no matter when you come from... give me 20 billion dollars and I would probably become a paranoid asshole that builds walls and hides money so I could keep it all to myself... no... actually I would probably end up giving most of it away to people who actually need it... there are more than enough of those.

    You can see one good reason for going all the way on the surface, noise. No-ones going to build a new noise profile with that amount of wave and wash.

    there are some places where surface transit of submarines is required to show lack of malicious intent. I know when exiting the Black sea subs must be surfaced too.

    Nato has already it's noise signature. Same for Russia and Nato boomers.

    I remember reading about an incident during the Cuban Missile crisis where the situation escalated and the Soviet subs went "operational" and disappeared, suggesting peace time noise levels and war time noise levels...

    The old Soviet subs sounding like a bag of hammers... might have actually had a bag of hammers attached to something in peace time... in war time the hammers come out of the bag and silence is a goal...

    Who knows.

    To be fair, considering ruble's current exchange rate, the dollar figures can be very misleading... Also, considering the fact that they are simultaneously building like 6 Yasens, it's IMO likely that a single sub doesn't even cost 1 billion dollars, let alone 2 or 3. Again, with the current exchange rate. Of course, to get a more "accurate" number you can probably almost double that (i.e. use 2013-14's exchange rate), but there's no way that even then the cost is anywhere close to $3.5 billion. That would make them totally unaffordable.

    Of course the obvious factor is that the MIC in Russia is largely government owned so even enormous amounts of money spent is just money being shifted between departments, whereas western subs, the money goes into the pockets of CEOs of private companies...

    Another factor is that the cost is spread over a decade or so that they took to build the damn things... 400 million a year for ten years is 4 billion...

    Of course that is 4 billion dollars spent on Russian production and R and D capabilities in naval technology, so it is not just a defence purchase, but also an investment in technology that can be used in other areas too.

    Since 2000 they could have easily built 2-3 more Akula SSNs and 2 more Oscar II SSGNs.

    They could have built 500 Foxtrots, but they are a shrinking navy that needs quality, not large ship numbers.

    Are you saying PAK FA is a mistake and the Russian AF should just build lots more Su-35 and MiG-35 aircraft?

    The fact is that you keep on improving and new stuff costs... that is why it is called the (B)Leading edge.

    That would have been better for them. More Oscars, Akulas and even Deltas. Refine them, sure. Go for something completely new? No. Well they did that and now they have a tiny fleet of new boomers and a collection of obsolete Soviet-era dinosaurs that require unreasonable amount of crew and maintenance.

    Your suggestion is that they build more obsolete soviet era dinosaurs that require large crews and heavy maintainence instead of new modern vessels like Yasen-M... contradict yourself much?

    And yeah, the single active Typhoon (merely an experimental test-bed, not active in patrols/deterrent), makes very nice videos across the Jutland.

    What is your problem... it is a test vessel. Deal with it.

    It's a frickin sideshow for a country that considers itself a global power. Barely at the level France and the UK.

    It is a global power because it CAN level France and the UK...

    One refined Oscar could have delivered 5 and 10 times that firepower and loiter for months, then fire again, whenever deemed necessary. Try loitering the high seas on them gunboats/corvettes for 2-3 months

    They ARE converting Oscars to Onyx missiles... and having every gunboat/corvette being more powerful than NATO frigates (which one specifically has land attack capability right now?) is a weakness? Really?

    I'm not sure if it qualifies as either strategic or cruiser.

    Can kill a lot of people 30 minutes after launch, qualifies to me as Strategic... it is already more powerful than the strategic bombing fleets of both UK and France combined... even just with one test missile fitted... Razz
    In fact it is more powerful than the strategic bombing forces of all of NATO except the US combined... with one Bulava missile. Razz

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