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    Anti-Ship Missiles Thread

    Big_Gazza
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    Post  Big_Gazza Sun Jul 19, 2020 3:12 am

    ahmedfire wrote:I think EM railgun will play a role to defend against supersonic missiles . it's projectile can reach from zero to 6 Mach in 10 milliseconds ,giving it a safe impact distance away from the ship .

    If that logic was sound, we would be protecting tanks from penetrator rounds by using other penetrator rounds. The problem is that no FCS on the planet can perform such a feat in a reliable fashion in the field, nor likely ever will. In the real physical world, some things are just next to impossible.

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    kvs
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    Post  kvs Sun Jul 19, 2020 7:41 am

    Big_Gazza wrote:
    ahmedfire wrote:I think EM railgun will play a role to defend against supersonic missiles . it's projectile can reach from zero to 6 Mach in 10 milliseconds ,giving it a safe impact distance away from the ship .

    If that logic was sound, we would be protecting tanks from penetrator rounds by using other penetrator rounds. The problem is that no FCS on the planet can perform such a feat in a reliable fashion in the field, nor likely ever will.  In the real physical world, some things are just next to impossible.

    Lasers are the only theoretical interceptors of hypersonic missiles that are guaranteed to overcome any non-ballistic maneuvering since no chunk
    of metal, composite and ceramic will ever approach the speed of light. But lasers are nowhere near the sci-fi level required to have the
    energy density to do the job.
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Sun Jul 19, 2020 9:29 am

    I think EM railgun will play a role to defend against supersonic missiles . it's projectile can reach from zero to 6 Mach in 10 milliseconds ,giving it a safe impact distance away from the ship .

    Actually that is not a great idea... the APFSDS round from a 125mm tank gun goes from zero to 1.8km/s which is about mach 6 in the length of a 5-6m long barrel so less than 10 miliseconds I would guess...

    And how often to armies promote tanks with APFSDS rounds as anti aircraft weapons?

    A round can't correct its trajectory like a missile.

    Lasers and some sort of hard kill (like on tanks) are the future.

    Indeed.. the closing speed of an incoming Kh-32 with an outgoing mach 6 weapon will be mach 11 or about 3.3km/s, but even the slightest change of trajectory by the Kh-32 after the EM gun round is fired means it will miss... and the Kh-32 could fly in a loose spiral trajectory and no rounds fired at it will connect...

    As you mention only a laser because it reduces the intercept time to so close to zero that the lazer could be kept on target even if it moves, and of course hard kill, but compounded by the fact that hard kill systems reduce armour penetration to the level where the kinetic target can no longer penetrate the heavy armour of the target... in the case of a ship against a 2-7 ton incoming round means you would need to go back to WWII battleships with heavy belt armour over its entire surface... which is not really practical.

    Russian AshM's have been known to be armored with titanium to make them resistant to shrapnel.

    The Granit has an angled titanium plate protecting the warhead... if you set off the incoming missiles warhead the tiny fragments rapidly slow down and protect the ship very effectively... the Phalanx uses DU rounds to penetrate the titanium plates used to protect warheads in the hope of setting off the warheads.

    the speed of these new missiles makes Phalanx useless... in the half second such a missile would take to cover the effective range band of the Phalanx it simply couldn't fire enough rounds to assure a kill...

    Indeed the lead required would mean that any shots fired by the time it gets to about 800m would be fired in to the ship you are trying to protect... so a quarter of a second to shoot it down... a 7.5 ton anti ship missiles with 50 cal DU rounds.


    Lasers are the only theoretical interceptors of hypersonic missiles that are guaranteed to overcome any non-ballistic maneuvering since no chunk
    of metal, composite and ceramic will ever approach the speed of light. But lasers are nowhere near the sci-fi level required to have the
    energy density to do the job.

    Exactly... lasers have a long way to go before they are more effective than missiles or guns, but that is no reason not to use lasers too... they wont get better if they stay in the lab... or they will get faster as they are made and new ideas to make them better and more efficient can be worked on in the field as well a the lab.

    The ideal would be an energy beam weapon that sets off HE or remaining propellent...

    To be clear the US believes that shooting at high speed air targets needs high velocity rounds... their 20mm gatling gun they use for their fighter aircraft fire light projectiles at about 1km/s muzzle velocities... which sounds fine because it means it shoots flatter and gets to the target faster, but the problem is that there is no level of velocity that could get a solid projectile to a target intercept point fast enough to mean the target has no time to manouver in any direction or speed up or slow down.
    The much more sensible idea is lower velocity but high rate of fire... widely used with small arms. When shooting at birds and other small fast targets you use a shot gun.... not very fast projectiles but lots of them scattered all around the point of aim so that if the target dips or weaves or speeds up or slows down after you fire you are still going to get pellets on target due to their spread around the point of aim.

    Larger calibre slower rounds can often be more effective than smaller lighter faster rounds if they have proximity fuses...


    Last edited by GarryB on Sun Jul 19, 2020 12:13 pm; edited 1 time in total

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    Isos
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    Anti-Ship Missiles Thread - Page 17 Empty Re: Anti-Ship Missiles Thread

    Post  Isos Sun Jul 19, 2020 10:46 am

    Big_Gazza wrote:
    ahmedfire wrote:I think EM railgun will play a role to defend against supersonic missiles . it's projectile can reach from zero to 6 Mach in 10 milliseconds ,giving it a safe impact distance away from the ship .

    If that logic was sound, we would be protecting tanks from penetrator rounds by using other penetrator rounds. The problem is that no FCS on the planet can perform such a feat in a reliable fashion in the field, nor likely ever will.  In the real physical world, some things are just next to impossible.

    At slower speeds you have the new 57mm gun. But its rounds explode near the target which corrects the mistakes of FCS precision.


    IMO they could create an afghanit for ships. They already did it for the tanks but also for their silos. They had a system design made of grenade launchers or guns that destroy incoming MIRV warheads targeting the silos of nuclear missiles.

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    Arrow


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    Post  Arrow Sun Jul 19, 2020 12:03 pm

    Exactly... lasers have a long way to go before they are more effective than missiles or guns, but that is no reason not to use lasers too... they wont get better if they stay in the lab... or they will get faster as they are made and new ideas to make them better and more efficient can be worked on in the field as well a the lab. wrote:

    Peresvet is probably a great advance in laser technology. If it is powered by a nuclear reactor and has a capacity of several MW, it can be dangerous and not only blind satellites.
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Sun Jul 19, 2020 12:16 pm

    Peresvet is probably a great advance in laser technology. If it is powered by a nuclear reactor and has a capacity of several MW, it can be dangerous and not only blind satellites.

    Indeed, but in terms of size and weight and cost a TOR mount with 16 missiles might do a better job most of the time.

    My point is that lasers are not at the point of missiles and guns already are but their growth potential means they will eventually surpass missiles and guns and they wont get there if they stay in the lab.

    Right now lasers are probably at the point where they render IIR guided and other optically guided missiles ineffective simply by blinding their optics.
    Isos
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    Post  Isos Sun Jul 19, 2020 12:36 pm

    They can also work on more AD missiles equiped with a EMP warhead.

    Or maybe a Peresvet but with a micro-wave canon to burn electronics.
    The-thing-next-door
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    Post  The-thing-next-door Sun Jul 19, 2020 8:35 pm

    Isos wrote:
    IMO they could create an afghanit for ships. They already did it for the tanks but also for their silos. They had a system design made of grenade launchers or guns that destroy incoming MIRV warheads targeting the silos of nuclear missiles.

    Are there any photographs of this silo defence system? I would very much like to see it.
    Isos
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    Post  Isos Sun Jul 19, 2020 9:36 pm

    The-thing-next-door wrote:
    Isos wrote:
    IMO they could create an afghanit for ships. They already did it for the tanks but also for their silos. They had a system design made of grenade launchers or guns that destroy incoming MIRV warheads targeting the silos of nuclear missiles.

    Are there any photographs of this silo defence system? I would very much like to see it.

    https://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/world/russia/mozyr-kaz.htm

    Anti-Ship Missiles Thread - Page 17 Mozyr-10
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Mon Jul 20, 2020 12:30 pm

    Actually the description of it being a sort of APS system is surprisingly accurate.

    Soviet ICBM missile silos are very hard and it would take a direct hit from a nuclear warhead to destroy them... a bit like the frontal armour of a tank needs to be hit by a kinetic or HEAT round to penetrate. These air defence systems set off the nuke above ground so it does not contact or bury itself in the ground before detonating... the blast wave would be intense as would the heat... but not enough to damage a missile inside such a silo.
    Isos
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    Post  Isos Tue Jul 28, 2020 9:37 am


    Guy Plopsky
    @GuyPlopsky
    ·
    27 juil.
    Starting this year, #IskanderM brigades will train to target ships and amphibious forces. First such exercise conducted during recent snap drills; Kuban-based Iskander-M (i.e. 1st Missile Brigade) conducted simulated launches against "costal targets."
    George1
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    Post  George1 Mon Jan 24, 2022 3:41 pm

    Russia’s Tactical Missile Corporation is developing new seaborne weapons, including a next-generation high-speed anti-ship missile with an extended strike range, Tactical Missile Corporation CEO Boris Obnosov told TASS on the occasion of the company’s 20th anniversary on Monday.

    https://tass.com/defense/1392115

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    mnztr


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    Post  mnztr Mon Jan 24, 2022 5:47 pm

    That anti sub rocket propelled torpedo sounds downright scary. I have not heard of any analogues in the west.
    Hole
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    Post  Hole Mon Jan 24, 2022 7:58 pm

    George1 wrote:Russia’s Tactical Missile Corporation is developing new seaborne weapons, including a next-generation high-speed anti-ship missile with an extended strike range, Tactical Missile Corporation CEO Boris Obnosov told TASS on the occasion of the company’s 20th anniversary on Monday.

    https://tass.com/defense/1392115

    Tsirkon-M???
    dino00
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    Post  dino00 Mon Jan 24, 2022 11:28 pm

    Hole wrote:
    George1 wrote:Russia’s Tactical Missile Corporation is developing new seaborne weapons, including a next-generation high-speed anti-ship missile with an extended strike range, Tactical Missile Corporation CEO Boris Obnosov told TASS on the occasion of the company’s 20th anniversary on Monday.

    https://tass.com/defense/1392115

    Tsirkon-M???

    Probably one of the air launched hypersonic cruise missiles announced last two years
    Isos
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    Post  Isos Mon Jan 24, 2022 11:48 pm

    Would be nice if it was carried by Su-33 and mig-29K from Kuznetsov. That would increase its power by a great factor. Even better if they can carry 4 of such missiles.
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Tue Jan 25, 2022 9:56 am

    That anti sub rocket propelled torpedo sounds downright scary. I have not heard of any analogues in the west.

    Actually ASROC launched from a ship and SUBROC launched from a submarine are direct equivalents.

    Their contemporaries at the time were SS-N-15 and SS-N-16... the latter adopted in the early 1980s...

    Interestingly the Metel or SS-N-14 is a winged rocket propelled weapon that carried an underslung torpedo a bit like the Australian Ikara missile... later versions of the Soviet missile had IR guidance for anti ship use which made it effectively an IR guided anti ship weapon...

    Would be nice if it was carried by Su-33 and mig-29K from Kuznetsov. That would increase its power by a great factor. Even better if they can carry 4 of such missiles.

    Well if it is anything like Brahmos-M was supposed to be a much smaller missile for tactical fighters then four for the MiG and 6 for the Flanker would be a likely potential load.
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    Post  mnztr Tue Jan 25, 2022 10:20 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    That anti sub rocket propelled torpedo sounds downright scary. I have not heard of any analogues in the west.

    Actually ASROC launched from a ship and SUBROC launched from a submarine are direct equivalents.

    Their contemporaries at the time were SS-N-15 and SS-N-16... the latter adopted in the early 1980s...

    Interestingly the Metel or SS-N-14 is a winged rocket propelled weapon that carried an underslung torpedo a bit like the Australian Ikara missile... later versions of the Soviet missile had IR guidance for anti ship use which made it effectively an IR guided anti ship weapon...


    Ok correct me if I am wrong, but ASROC actually dropped a conventional torpedo over the target correct? Where as this one is an actual rocket powered torpedo
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    Post  mnztr Tue Jan 25, 2022 10:58 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    That anti sub rocket propelled torpedo sounds downright scary. I have not heard of any analogues in the west.

    Actually ASROC launched from a ship and SUBROC launched from a submarine are direct equivalents.

    Their contemporaries at the time were SS-N-15 and SS-N-16... the latter adopted in the early 1980s...

    Interestingly the Metel or SS-N-14 is a winged rocket propelled weapon that carried an underslung torpedo a bit like the Australian Ikara missile... later versions of the Soviet missile had IR guidance for anti ship use which made it effectively an IR guided anti ship weapon...


    Ok correct me if I am wrong, but ASROC actually dropped a conventional torpedo over the target correct? Where as this one is an actual rocket powered torpedo

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