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    Anti-Ship Missiles Thread

    GunshipDemocracy
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    Anti-Ship Missiles Thread - Page 12 Empty Re: Anti-Ship Missiles Thread

    Post  GunshipDemocracy Tue Dec 19, 2017 1:51 am

    Azi wrote:
    Yes and NO! The missile is not smart, it has no AI onboard. The missile doesn't know if it hits the ship from side or length. So theoretical a Zirkon could fly 100 or more meters through a carrier, but leave only one small hole (of course destroying the warhead...simply everything of the missile). But hitting from side??? If a Zirkon would explode after 40 meters of penetrating it would be outside of the ship again, causing a big boom only in the air and not in the ship ;D So Zirkon, Onyx, Harpoon, LRASM and Co. will all explode a few meters after penetrating the hull.


    Not sure what is "being smart" and AI for missile for you but  her e AI here is not rally used to build optimal strategy of attack. To few resources too little time. No need too. It can be used to adjust situational awareness'  parameters  but nothing more. Besides even  current missiles like  Kh-35 flying in packs share and  prioritize ships which to attack, based on their profiles.  Consider it as rule base systems with finite number of predefined attack possibilities against different carrier groupings'  configurations.




    Other situation is if the hypersonic cruise missile will be smart, knowing from where it attacks. But this is music of far future.


    This is not bout being smart but also having sensors allowing you to classify ships. Optical/radar/ whatever Smile  Hypersonic might have problems with getting thru plasma around missile but I am sure they will find workaround that...

    Azi wrote:
    Singular_Transform wrote:An if the blast happens just under the skin then the best part of energy will go outside.
    But if the warhead penetrate many bulkhead then the explosion damage will be absorbed by the ship structure.
    It can be debated how the damage profile looks like, but I think we can assume that it will be devastating.
    Much of energy goes oustide, but the blast is enough for a whole section Wink Believe me! Smaller ships like corvette will be complete ripped off, bigger ships have higher chance of survivability.


    if you check energy equivalent with something like 3km/s + no need to add chemical explosives. Mass carries as much energy. The problem here would be about energy transferring from missile parts to ship.

    Zircon was recorded like 8 Ma right? it is close to magical 3000km/s.... mybe newer versions with Ma 10-12 would not need any HE warheads?


    Last edited by GunshipDemocracy on Tue Dec 19, 2017 4:37 pm; edited 1 time in total
    GarryB
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    Anti-Ship Missiles Thread - Page 12 Empty Re: Anti-Ship Missiles Thread

    Post  GarryB Tue Dec 19, 2017 9:38 am

    The oposite is true, if a slow moving hockey puck can cause serious injuries, then a 2 gram 0.22 projectile having the same energy can cause death.


    so, if a slow moving container ship can cripple a destroyer then a fast moving missile with the same amount of kinetic energy can kill it.

    I am a hunter and I know for a fact that shooting an animal in a non vital area will not be lethal.

    Energy calculations are always skewed by velocity and make fast moving things more energetic.

    At the end of the day a small very fast bullet going through the heart or brain of an animal is no more or less lethal than a very heavy very fast bullet doing the same thing.

    There are too many variables... is the hit in the middle going sideways through, or will you hit one end and have it penetrate the length of the ship... low speed missiles like Exocet or Harpoon wont penetrate the entire length of a carrier whereas hitting sideways a Granit might over penetrate.
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    Anti-Ship Missiles Thread - Page 12 Empty Re: Anti-Ship Missiles Thread

    Post  magnumcromagnon Thu Dec 20, 2018 2:12 am

    Interesting video about Bal (Kh-35) test launch back in the autumn of 2004, showcasing the sea-skimming ability. To say the least it show cases the Kh-35 capability to a great degree:





    ...At 3:42 the Kh-35 is shown to sea-skim at a height of 2.35 meters, and at 4:27 you see it's accuracy, by hitting one of the slim metal posts accurately.

    Isos
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    Anti-Ship Missiles Thread - Page 12 Empty Re: Anti-Ship Missiles Thread

    Post  Isos Sat Jan 05, 2019 5:55 pm

    What do you think of an antiship version of r-37 air to air missile ?

    Could act like a small kh-22. Flying at mach 6 at 25km altitude with a range of 400km with top attack mode by diving on the target from its max altidude from 15-20km away. Would be a hard target for any air defence as most of them won't see it at 25km in altitude and most of them can't intercept above 20km. In the final diving attack it would be almost above the radar so it would be in the dead zone of the ship's sensors.

    Big range, huge speed and decent warhead to damage any ship, sukhois could carry 4-6 of them and it's cheap to be used in big numbers.
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    Post  Hole Sat Jan 05, 2019 9:21 pm

    R-37: 4,06m long, 510kg launch weight, 60kg warhead
    Kh-31AD: 5,34m long, 715kg launch weight, 110kg warhead
    Kh-35U: 3,85m long, 550kg launch weight, 145kg warhead

    Not much difference. Why bother to develop an anti-ship version of R-37?
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    Post  Isos Sat Jan 05, 2019 11:06 pm

    Hole wrote:R-37: 4,06m long, 510kg launch weight, 60kg warhead
    Kh-31AD: 5,34m long, 715kg launch weight, 110kg warhead
    Kh-35U: 3,85m long, 550kg launch weight, 145kg warhead

    Not much difference. Why bother to develop an anti-ship version of R-37?

    It has a longer range and is faster than the other two. It also flies at 25km in altitude which is another way of escaping modern SAMs.

    The kh-31 is very limited in use because if you want to achieve longer ranges (110km) you have to launch it pretty high exposing the fighter to SAM and the enemy ship will most likely see you at that range so it will know it is under attack. Even chinese rejected the high-low trajectory of russian version and developed their own version with Low-Low trajectory but with shorter range.

    Kh-35 is slow. Nothing better than exocet or harpoon. Modern sam will deal with it easily unless it is a small ship.

    R-37 could be a nice replacement for kh-31 actually in three version air to air, anti ship and ARM.
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    Post  magnumcromagnon Sun Jan 06, 2019 1:25 am

    Hole wrote:R-37: 4,06m long, 510kg launch weight, 60kg warhead
    Kh-31AD: 5,34m long, 715kg launch weight, 110kg warhead
    Kh-35U: 3,85m long, 550kg launch weight, 145kg warhead

    Not much difference. Why bother to develop an anti-ship version of R-37?

    If anything I would like to see a sea-skimming torpedo launcher. I'm thinking of taking the Kh-35U, removing the standard warhead, and adding a stage that launches a (a smaller with far less propellant) Shkval torpedo missile in to the water. Kh-35U has range of 300km, a modified version of it could fly 290 km, and launch a shrunk Shkval torpedo for the last 10 km. Should be devastating.
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Sun Jan 06, 2019 5:39 am

    R-37 is rocket powered so it would be unpowered as it fell on its target at or near max range... the Kh-31 uses a ramjet, but with all the new work they are doing on scramjet engines they could upgrade it to a scramjet powered model with much higher speed and much greater range.

    Solid rocket fuel is expensive, while the Kh-31 uses kerosene...

    The kh-31 is very limited in use because if you want to achieve longer ranges (110km) you have to launch it pretty high exposing the fighter to SAM and the enemy ship will most likely see you at that range so it will know it is under attack.

    The R-37M is supposed to have a range of 300km from a high altitude high speed launch (from a MiG-31), so an anti ship model R-37M would be no great advantage... in terms of launch characteristics.

    Even chinese rejected the high-low trajectory of russian version and developed their own version with Low-Low trajectory but with shorter range.

    Russian missiles have the option of flying high or flying low... if someone told you this story about the Chinese rejecting it because they wanted it to fly low then they are lying to you or to themselves.

    The Russian missile could just as easily fly low all the way like the Kh-41 Moskit does, and of course shorter flight range will be a consequence of this flight profile...

    If anything I would like to see a sea-skimming torpedo launcher. I'm thinking of taking the Kh-35U, removing the standard warhead, and adding a stage that launches a (a smaller with far less propellant) Shkval torpedo missile in to the water. Kh-35U has range of 300km, a modified version of it could fly 290 km, and launch a shrunk Shkval torpedo for the last 10 km. Should be devastating.

    Or use the already invented Club missile with its rocket propelled mach 2.9 terminal missile... AFAIK the export model flys about 250km at subsonic speed... which sounds a little strange... the whole point of subsonic cruise missiles is their enormous range... I suspect the domestic Russian model has a subsonic flight range closer to 1,500km than 300km, as the models with subsonic flight all the way reach beyond 2,500km...

    The fundamental issue is that the R-37s is a large heavy missile carried currently by the MiG-31 and PAK FA. In the future it will likely be integrated to other aircraft as their radars are updated to AESAs so they can use the missile to its max range, but I rather suspect a future development of the Kh-31 with a scramjet would improve its performance well beyond anything the solid rocket powered R-37 could manage.
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    Post  Isos Sun Jan 06, 2019 8:26 am

    magnumcromagnon wrote:
    Hole wrote:R-37: 4,06m long, 510kg launch weight, 60kg warhead
    Kh-31AD: 5,34m long, 715kg launch weight, 110kg warhead
    Kh-35U: 3,85m long, 550kg launch weight, 145kg warhead

    Not much difference. Why bother to develop an anti-ship version of R-37?

    If anything I would like to see a sea-skimming torpedo launcher. I'm thinking of taking the Kh-35U, removing the standard warhead, and adding a stage that launches a (a smaller with far less propellant) Shkval torpedo missile in to the water. Kh-35U has range of 300km, a modified version of it could fly 290 km, and launch a shrunk Shkval torpedo for the last 10 km. Should be devastating.  

    Small torpedo like the one on klub missile have very short range like less than 5 km.

    This one would be even smaller.

    R-37 is rocket powered so it would be unpowered as it fell on its target at or near max range... the Kh-31 uses a ramjet, but with all the new work they are doing on scramjet engines they could upgrade it to a scramjet powered model with much higher speed and much greater range.

    Agree but now kh-31 is very limited by its ramjet. At low altitude it has small range so launch aircraft has to come close.

    The good point of R-37 is that ot flies high and fast. Keep some fuel to accelerate it at the end and you will have a mach 4 or 5 final attack.
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    Post  Hole Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:18 am

    Kh-31AD has a range of 260km launched from 15.000m.

    If launched from below 5.000m the range of the R-37 will be closer to 150km, even less when it has to fly close to the Ground/sea. And it has only a 60kg warhead. And a plane can´t carry more then Kh-31. No Advantages.
    Isos
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    Post  Isos Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:43 am

    Hole wrote:Kh-31AD has a range of 260km launched from 15.000m.

    If launched from below 5.000m the range of the R-37 will be closer to 150km, even less when it has to fly close to the Ground/sea. And it has only a 60kg warhead. And a plane can´t carry more then Kh-31. No Advantages.

    You are not honest in your statements. You compare range of a low flying r-37 with the range of a high flying kh-31.

    R-37 can fly at 25km altitude so it is a huge advantage since most air defence missiles or radars won't see it.

    Kh-31 launched below 5000m is nowhere near the 150km range of the r-37 too.
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    Post  GarryB Sun Jan 06, 2019 1:41 pm

    Agree but now kh-31 is very limited by its ramjet. At low altitude it has small range so launch aircraft has to come close.

    The good point of R-37 is that ot flies high and fast. Keep some fuel to accelerate it at the end and you will have a mach 4 or 5 final attack.

    You say the Kh-31 has a short range with a low altitude flight profile... the R-37s range would be much much worse using the same low flight profile because rocket powered missiles have limited thrust curves.

    The R-37 is rocket propelled... it can't keep fuel for anything... once lit it burns... no stopping it or saving some for later...

    The Kh-31 would be better suited to a high lofted flight profile where it coasts a lot of the way ballisticly and then uses fuel at the end for terminal attack manouvers...

    As I mentioned... a new model with a scramjet motor could accelerate to much higher speeds too.

    You are not honest in your statements. You compare range of a low flying r-37 with the range of a high flying kh-31.

    R-37 can fly at 25km altitude so it is a huge advantage since most air defence missiles or radars won't see it.

    Kh-31 launched below 5000m is nowhere near the 150km range of the r-37 too.

    He is not wrong... the thicker denser warmer air at lower altitudes that reduce the range of the Kh-31 would be devastatingly more harsh on a rocket powered missile in terms of flight range and speed.

    The range given for the R-37 is for a high altitude high speed launch from the only aircraft that can carry it... the MiG-31.

    The figures given for the Kh-31 are for attack aircraft flying much lower and much slower.

    Very simply put a Kh-31 launched from high altitude and high speed could travel much much further and that is compounded by its jet engine...

    An R-37 has a high energy fuel and a lower energy fuel.. the high energy fuel burns first and very very rapidly and accelerates the missile to its flight speed... then the lower energy fuel starts burning... it helps the missile maintain speed rather than accelerate or climb but it burns dozens of times longer than the high energy fuel.

    At high altitude the R-37 fired at high speed, the high energy fuel accelerates it to top speed... mach 5-6 or so, but after 5-10 seconds that burns out and the lower energy fuel starts burning... it helps the missile maintain speed and might burn for a minute or more. The point is that if the missile only had the high energy fuel it might accelerate to mach 6 or 7 but it will rapidly slow down after the engine had burned out and so instead of going 300km it might only reach 180km or so.

    A low altitude launch at a much lower speed and the R-37 might reach mach 3-4, but more importantly it wont be able to climb to altitude where the air is thin and friction is lower so it will have less energy and momentum and much more drag all the way... a low altitude launch and the R-37s range would probably be less than 100km.

    With the Kh-31 there is a high energy solid rocket booster that accelerates the missile and allows it to climb but its ramjet is a jet engine and it can throttle it to optimise its flight performance... ie a relatively high throttle setting to allow it to climb, and then top setting to accelerate to top speed at an altitude where it can fly fast and then throttle back to coast to the target area...

    With a scramjet it will be able to accelerate to much higher speeds...
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    Post  dino00 Sun Jan 06, 2019 3:12 pm

    I have never seen this on the forum so...

    An interview to Boris Obnosov ceo of KTRV(Tactical Missile Weapons Corporation) they incorporate raduga, npo Mashinostroeniya etc... in 17/08/2016

    This part:

    In the operation of the Russian Navy in Syria, the Caliber-NK and Caliber-PL missiles developed by the Novator Design Bureau distinguished themselves. Are there similar developments in KTRV?

    Yes there is. And significantly longer range. More, you know, I can not say.

    What is This??? Cant be zirkon from npo because of the range, a super oniks?Nah,  A sub/sea launched kh-101 from Raduga? Most probable. Cant be an improved kalibr because Novator is from Almaz-Antey corporation

    Other thing:

    In the Syrian VKS operation, the Kh-101 long-range air-launched cruise missiles of the KTRV developed and produced well. Is the modernization of these missiles continuing? What characteristics of missiles can be improved?

    Yes, modernization is coming. The direction of work is clear. This is an increase in range and increased accuracy.

    Its an old interview, but i didnt saw on the forum or read anywhere, if already posted and debated attack  dont BE mean lol1

    The full interview:
    https://rns.online/interviews/Glava-KTRV-ob-operatsii-v-Sirii-giperzvuke-i-oruzhii-dlya-dronov-2016-08-17/


    Last edited by dino00 on Sun Jan 06, 2019 6:13 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Mispelling)
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    Post  hoom Sun Jan 06, 2019 4:36 pm

    I recall there was talk of a naval X-101 for UKSK but it seems unlikely to fit in a UKSK cell, being quite a bit fatter than Onyx which appears to be a pretty tight fit.
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    Post  GarryB Mon Jan 07, 2019 9:04 am

    Actually the early specs I read for the UKSK launchers mentioned Kh-101 and Kh-102 missiles specifically... I was actually surprised to find they had the Calibr in them which is basically an upgraded SS-N-21 Grannat missile with terminal guidance and better accuracy allowing both conventional and nuclear warheads.

    (Note SS-N-21 Grannat missile as opposed to SS-19 Granit missile).

    Unification of missile types makes a lot of sense and it would be expected that the missiles would fit in the UKSK... the U meaning universal... the meaning of which is pretty clear...

    What is This??? Cant be zirkon from npo because of the range, a super oniks?Nah, A sub/sea launched kh-101 from Raduga? Most probable.

    Calibr NK and PL are both cruise missiles... the only air launched equivalents would be Kh-101 and Kh-102... NK being ship launched and PL being sub launched cruise missiles.
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    Post  dino00 Mon Jan 07, 2019 10:29 am

    GarryB wrote:
    Calibr NK and PL are both cruise missiles... the only air launched equivalents would be Kh-101 and Kh-102... NK being ship launched and PL being sub launched cruise missiles.

    I know. My question was what should be the new missile from KTRV, most probable a kh-101 sub/sea launched.
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    Post  GarryB Tue Jan 08, 2019 12:55 am

    Yup, so larger and heavier and with a more efficient turbofan engine for greatly increased flight range... though from a surface or sub launch its range might be reduced to 4,500km or so compared with air launched...
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    Post  Isos Sat Jan 12, 2019 6:04 pm

    https://www.checkpointasia.net/russian-navy-hit-and-sank-a-decommissioned-frigate-in-syria-live-fire-drills-video/

    I don't know if this video was posted before but it's a good one. Back in april 2018, russian su-34 destroyed a syrian retired corvette with two kh-35.

    You can see the missile hiting the back of the ship targeting the propulsion of the ship.
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    Post  GarryB Sun Jan 13, 2019 2:14 am

    Went down like a Norwegian Frigate hitting an oil tanker...
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    Anti-Ship Missiles Thread - Page 12 Empty ssc-1 sepal numbers in 1990

    Post  nastle77 Mon Jan 14, 2019 4:05 am

    Hello
    I just wanted to see if someone has any numbers of SSC-1 sepal TEL operational by 1990
    military balance gives only 40 TEL
    and here http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-Rus-Cruise-Missiles.html#mozTocId369687

    it says in 4 fleets soviets had 19 battalions of 15 TEL each so over 300 TEL

    huge discrepency

    any help appreciated
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy Thu Mar 28, 2019 9:02 pm

    nastle77 wrote:Hello
    I just wanted to see if someone has any numbers of SSC-1 sepal TEL operational by 1990
    military balance gives only 40 TEL
    and here http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-Rus-Cruise-Missiles.html#mozTocId369687

    it says in 4 fleets soviets had 19 battalions of 15 TEL each so over 300 TEL

    huge discrepency

    any help appreciated


    I dunno but if question is valid i can try to do some research?
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    Anti-Ship Missiles Thread - Page 12 Empty Report about a smaller "Compact" version of the Tsirkon Hypersonic Missile

    Post  Cyberspec Thu Oct 31, 2019 8:59 pm

    Report about a smaller "Compact" version of the Tsirkon Hypersonic Missile which is intended to equip the Corvettes of the Karakurt and Buyan-M class

    Anti-Ship Missiles Thread - Page 12 %D0%A1%D0%BD%D0%B8%D0%BC%D0%BE%D0%BA%20%D1%8D%D0%BA%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%B0%202019-01-22%20%D0%B2%200.35.24

    Arrow https://iz.ru/833837/aleksei-ramm-bogdan-stepovoi/kompaktnyi-giperzvuk-vmf-poluchit-oblegchennye-rakety-tcirkon
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    Post  PapaDragon Thu Oct 31, 2019 10:01 pm

    Cyberspec wrote:Report about a smaller "Compact" version of the Tsirkon Hypersonic Missile which is intended to equip the Corvettes of the Karakurt and Buyan-M class...

    "Compact" version of Zircon has same range as standard Onyx missile? Suspect

    How much range does full size Zircon have then?

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    Post  Isos Thu Oct 31, 2019 10:25 pm

    That's weired. Those corvettes have the same uksk as gorshkov frigate which is suppose to test fire the tzirkon this year. Maybe weight ?
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    Post  Cyberspec Fri Nov 01, 2019 12:01 am

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Cyberspec wrote:Report about a smaller "Compact" version of the Tsirkon Hypersonic Missile which is intended to equip the Corvettes of the Karakurt and Buyan-M class...

    "Compact" version of Zircon has same range as standard Onyx missile?  Suspect

    How much range does full size Zircon have then?


    The assumption is that it uses the same engine but the other components are scaled down...including a somewhat smaller warhead, but apparently it will have not much smaller destructive impact


    Isos wrote:That's weired. Those corvettes have the same uksk as gorshkov frigate which is suppose to test fire the tzirkon this year. Maybe weight ?

    "...Also the rocket will be adapted for launches from a special container...."

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