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    Anti-Ship Missiles Thread

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    Arrow

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    Post  Arrow on Thu Nov 07, 2019 5:48 pm

    Zircon has a range of 1000km. This is probably the range of a quasi ballistic flight without maneuvers against the ABM and air defence system. For maneuvers, Zircon will have a much smaller range. It is not known how long the engine works in Zircon. But part of the flight probably takes place without propulsion. So the ship firing Zircon missiles to the aircraft carrier group must approach closer than 1000km. Maybe even 500km. The group is strongly defended. Hundreds of anti-aircraft missiles.

    Interesting article
    https://www.businessinsider.com/putin-says-hypersonic-missile-will-be-on-russian-navy-ship-2019-11?IR=T
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    Post  Viktor on Thu Nov 07, 2019 7:35 pm

    Arrow wrote:Zircon has a range of 1000km. This is probably the range of a quasi ballistic flight without maneuvers against the ABM and air defence system. For maneuvers, Zircon will have a much smaller range. It is not known how long the engine works in Zircon. But part of the flight probably takes place without propulsion. So the ship firing Zircon missiles to the aircraft carrier group must approach closer than 1000km. Maybe even 500km. The group is strongly defended. Hundreds of anti-aircraft missiles.

    Interesting article
    https://www.businessinsider.com/putin-says-hypersonic-missile-will-be-on-russian-navy-ship-2019-11?IR=T


    I think that when Russia reports that Zircon was tested with 400km range western propagandist momentarily take that number as is the final one when it is not proclaiming

    that Zircon has 400km range.

    Reportage disregards the fact that information released represents "sneak and peak" for a frozen moment in time into a process that is called testing which takes its time

    and so in time it grows.

    So when Putin one year or so from that moment makes a statement that Zircon has 1000km range

    everyone stands in awe again disregarding the fact that the statement again only constitutes a second "sneak and peak" for a frozen moment in time into that very same process

    which keeps going on and on.

    So who knows what that process will spawn along its way nor where it is now in regard to where it was when it was reported nor where the time frames altered on purpose Very Happy

    Now for the quote, if Zircon missile speed beats reaction time of said air defense system all missiles are useless arent they?
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    Post  GarryB on Fri Nov 08, 2019 5:14 am

    Zircon has a range of 1000km.

    We have been told the Zircon has a range greater than 1,000km, but that would include terminal manouvering as it is expected to penetrate IADS... it is an anti ship missile intended to sink US carriers after all.

    For maneuvers, Zircon will have a much smaller range.

    It is expected to penetrate AEGIS protected areas... manouvering during flight to the target and terminal homing is expected and will be part of the normal operation of this missile, so no it wont be smaller.

    But part of the flight probably takes place without propulsion.

    Why?

    It it because that would suit your agenda?

    The group is strongly defended. Hundreds of anti-aircraft missiles.

    Of course the group is strongly defended... that is the whole point of creating a 1,000km range hypersonic manouvering anti ship missile to defeat them.

    Now for the quote, if Zircon missile speed beats reaction time of said air defense system all missiles are useless arent they?

    More importantly... once the missile is developed and ready for service then improved model design can start using things learned from this and other projects to improve efficiency and performance including range. The first Moskit (SS-N-22 Sunburn) entered service in 1982 but had a range of 120km... on launch it would climb to 300m altitude to find its target and then drop below 7m for the rest of the trip. It used a ramjet motor so it needed a lot of fuel to fly at such low altitudes for such a long distance in the thick warm air near sea level. Wasn't much later that a newer version of the missile that was a ton lighter and with a flight range of 250km was developed based on experience and improvements.

    Of course in 1996 the Onyx was developed that was so much lighter than either the SS-N-22 or the SS-N-19 that it made it possible to consider vertical launch tubes and large volume carriage on relatively small vessels.

    Onyx was as fast as Granit and Moskit but was half their weight with more efficient and powerful ramjet motors... it was smaller and lighter but just as fast and with greater flight range.

    Scramjet technology is new so the Zircon will likely improve in performance quite radically over its lifetime too.... it is just like early post WWII propeller driven bombers being replaced by jet powered ones... the first ones were faster but burned a lot of fuel so range was not usually much better... but over time shapes changed and designs were refined and better engines were developed that increased speed and range to the point where propeller driven piston engined aircraft are now considered obsolete by most experts.
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    Post  Isos on Sat Jan 11, 2020 12:32 am

    Kh-35U and what seems to be a smaller one for helicopter. They really needed one like that.

    Anti-Ship Missiles Thread - Page 11 En8pov10
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    Post  GarryB on Sat Jan 11, 2020 4:07 am

    Nice photo find there... but the big missile has a rear mounted rocket motor as shown by the extra set of fins seen at the back end... this means that this model is for Helicopter launch or Ship or Sub launch... they all have an extra solid rocket booster to accelerate them up to speed before the internal jet engine starts up and continues the flight to the target.

    For fighter and attack and strike aircraft that are fast movers they use the same missile of course but without the solid rocket booster... effectively meaning the missile is bigger and heavier for ground or sea or helicopter launch... which is ironic for the helicopter as smaller and lighter is better there... for ships and subs it doesn't really matter.

    The smaller missile has more fin surface area which suggests to me it probably has a built in solid rocket booster to get it up to speed and away from the launch platform and then just accelerates under engine power with more wing surface lift... this would probably mean it could be carried on any platform without needing a separate solid rocket booster (though for ship and sub launch it might use a cold launch booster to throw it up into the air that is part of the launcher rather than the missile... a bit like a TOR missile)

    That would mean a small lighter missile that could be carried by a wider range of aircraft and in larger numbers but obviously with reduced range performance.

    A small helicopter like an Ansat or Ka-225T could carry four of these weapons where perhaps it would struggle with 2x 600kg Kh-35.

    Aircraft like a MiG-29KR might be able to carry a couple of these without degrading performance too much too... so if there is a known enemy threat they could fly with a couple of these on the centreline pylon and with wing pylons carrying jammer pods and AAMs which would not reduce its operational radius by much at all especially with the occasional top up from an inflight refuelling tanker or buddy tanker... If targets are detected then it can start engaging straight away... the shorter missile range compared with the Kh-35 compensated for with the flight range of the aircraft extending its range further away from the surface ships they are defending.

    Of course with the UKSK-M increased size launch tubes and cruise missiles and anti ship and land attack missiles increased in size and weight to fill those tubes means if the MiG can fly out to 1,000km and launch a 120km range anti ship missile it effectively means it is a small light missile with a range of 1,120km at subsonic speeds most of the way, while a Zircon would likely have a similar range but at 10 times greater speed, but a land attack cruise missile might have a range of 5 times more at a similar speed.

    The point is that with this mini missile you risk an aircraft and burn rather more fuel than with a cruise missile, and of course while a cruise missile can reach much further it wont really be much faster and it certainly wont be as aware as a fighter with a missile could be... as the fighter approaches the area it might see other targets that would be more useful to hit first... it could hit those more useful targets and then as it withdraws Zircons might come in and take out the other targets just spotted.

    The point is that they will have options to suit different situations and this new missile could be carried by their new 12,000km range HALE and MALE drones which offers a whole new capability for them...

    Thanks for the photo... the older photo I remember seeing was different... I don't remember those extra fins, but I also think the photo I saw you could only see the front of the new smaller missile design so any fin change would not have been visible... thanks for posting.
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    Post  GarryB on Sat Jan 11, 2020 4:21 am

    I must say I like this mini missile... it reminds me of an experimental missile the British used in the Falklands war called the Skua or Sea Skua or something...
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    Post  Isos on Sat Jan 11, 2020 9:36 am

    The bigger one is the Kh-35U which is the universal version that can go inside any launcher : coastal launcher, ship launcher and helicopter launcher with no modification.

    The smaller one doesn't need a separate booster as its range should be much smaller.

    British and french are also working on a new model called Sea Venom in english and ANL in french.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_Venom_(missile)
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    Post  Hole on Sat Jan 11, 2020 11:32 am

    The smaller missile also got an optic or IIR under the nose. Like...

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    Post  Hole on Sat Jan 11, 2020 9:10 pm

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    Post  Isos on Sat Jan 11, 2020 9:18 pm

    Dual IIR/radar (or probably passive radar). Nothing surprising.

    Its fins are similar to the r-77's ones. Maybe it is good also against p-8 airctaft and other ASW choppers.
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    Post  GarryB on Sun Jan 12, 2020 4:28 am

    The smaller missile also got an optic or IIR under the nose. Like...

    Possible that when it is first launched it uses radar to locate and identify the target like the Kh-35 does but then drop down low to the water and fly to where the target should be.

    The Kh-35 then turns on its radar in the last seconds of the attack to ensure it hits the target, but this small missile might use passive IR for the terminal bit or in case there is a lot of jamming and radar interference to protect the ship.

    (note the missile pictured in the example is an upgraded version of the AS-11 anti radiation missile for internal carriage on the Su-57 where the IR sensor would be used in case the target radar turned off... it uses a passive radar to detect a radar operating but as it approaches the radar will detect the missile and shut down to the missile can no longer home in on the radar wave signal... but this missile continues the attack using IR because big radars generate a lot of heat and while you can turn them off quickly to stop a missile homing on their signal you can't cool the antenna down to hide is IR signature so these missiles would still hit their targets... note ships are often a different temperature from the sea they are sitting in so remain an IR target too...)

    Dual IIR/radar (or probably passive radar). Nothing surprising.

    Its fins are similar to the r-77's ones. Maybe it is good also against p-8 airctaft and other ASW choppers.

    I don't think they would be IIR, more an IR detector in case it loses radar signal from the target by jamming or decoys... a decoy wont have the same IR signature as the original target so become less attractive as an alternative...
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    Post  Hole on Sun Jan 12, 2020 12:28 pm

    The Kh-58UShK version in the pics uses IIR.
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    Post  GarryB on Mon Jan 13, 2020 5:31 am

    Is it actually an imaging IR seeker or is it just an IR seeker... the difference is quite enormous.

    Not suggesting it can't be an IIR seeker... but we are talking about the difference in price of a few dollars like the PIR sensor in a burglar alarm compared with a couple of thousand dollars worth of thermal imager...

    For instance the Soviets developed a self forging fragment anti tank munition for their artillery rockets and cluster bombs... it is basically a flat disk with a block of HE on the back with a MMW radar and a parachute... the parachute is designed like the fin structure on a sycamore seed so it slows it down but also imparts a rapid spin that also helps slow down its fall speed... the MMW radar sensor is angled outwards at say 30-40 degrees so when it is high up it spins around and might scan round a circle a few hundred metres across... as it falls and gets closer to the ground the circle it is scanning gets smaller and smaller... while it is falling and scanning it is looking for large metal boxes and when it sees one it explodes sending the disk of metal down at hypersonic speeds which deform the flat disk into a sort of shuttle cock shaped penetrator that penetrates the thin top armour of the target... now the obvious problem is that if there are 24 in each bomb there is a risk they might all hit the same vehicle multiple times and not hit any other vehicle nearby.

    So the above system was in service in the 1980s with Smerch and Grad and Uragan batteries and was also available for Su-25s and other attack aircraft in the form of cluster bomb filler options.

    In the mid 1990s they added an IR sensor... not imaging, but it didn't need to be imaging... very simply it all worked the same except the IR sensor could detect a running engine and also a burning tank so it would prioritise running tank vehicles as targets but would ignore those vehicles already burning.

    Munitions that hit the ground without firing used sprung legs to flip over and face upwards with the MMW sensor detecting tanks running over them and firing the disk up into the belly of the vehicle as a type of mine.
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    Post  mnztr on Tue Feb 04, 2020 3:14 pm

    https://thaimilitaryandasianregion.blogspot.com/2018/05/russian-mod-to-upgrade-32-kh-22-long.html

    Came across this slightly dated item. Why only 32 missiles, is it for a subset of older TU-22s? The cost (about 6M) for 32 of these seems super cheap, considering they probably have HUGE inventory of KH-22 (over 3000 built) I would expect they would do more.
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    Post  Isos on Tue Feb 04, 2020 3:32 pm

    mnztr wrote:https://thaimilitaryandasianregion.blogspot.com/2018/05/russian-mod-to-upgrade-32-kh-22-long.html

    Came across this slightly dated item. Why only 32 missiles, is it for a subset of older TU-22s? The cost (about 6M) for 32 of these seems super cheap, considering they probably have HUGE inventory of KH-22 (over 3000 built) I would expect they would do more.

    Kh-32 is in production. Those kh-22 should be the last build and good for another 10-15 years.

    They have new hypersonic missiles for bombers. Maybe it's a sign they will stop kh-32 production once they have a good stock including those kh-22.

    They have newer and better hypersonic missiles coming for their upgraded bombers. That would be logical.


    Last edited by Isos on Tue Feb 04, 2020 4:08 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Post  mnztr on Tue Feb 04, 2020 3:46 pm

    Isos wrote:

    Kh-32 is in production. Those kh-22 should be the last build and good for another 10-15 years.

    They have new hypersonic missiles for bombers. Maybe it's a sign they will stop kh-32 production once they have a good stock with thise kh-22.

    They have newer and better hypersonic missiles coming for their upgraded bombers. That woukd be logical.

    Yes I know KH-32 is in production, since 2016, so why bother with upgraded KH-22 and if the upgraded KH-22 has such impressive specs why only 32 of them ? That is my question. Of course logically air launched version to Tsirkon will be the best choice, a TU-22 can probably launch 4 Kinzhal and up to 8 Tsirkon, maybe 4 Kinzhal and 4 Tsikon will be a full load, WOW!! That is insanely deadly.
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    Post  Isos on Tue Feb 04, 2020 4:11 pm

    mnztr wrote:
    Isos wrote:

    Kh-32 is in production. Those kh-22 should be the last build and good for another 10-15 years.

    They have new hypersonic missiles for bombers. Maybe it's a sign they will stop kh-32 production once they have a good stock with thise kh-22.

    They have newer and better hypersonic missiles coming for their upgraded bombers. That woukd be logical.

    Yes I know KH-32 is in production, since 2016, so why bother with upgraded KH-22 and if the upgraded KH-22 has such impressive specs why only 32 of them ? That is my question. Of course logically air launched version to Tsirkon will be the best choice, a TU-22 can probably launch 4 Kinzhal and up to 8 Tsirkon, maybe 4 Kinzhal and 4 Tsikon will be a full load, WOW!! That is insanely deadly.

    Because they need to modernize actual bombers or buy new pak da to use new hypersonic missiles. So for now the only available missiles are kh-32 and kh-22. And the modernization of tupolevs goes slowly so they still need kh-22/32 until they have enough new bombers to use mainly new hypersonic missiles. That should be the case for the next 10 years.

    Upgrading kh-22 is cheaper than buying new kh-32. So why not. Good move they save money.
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    Post  GarryB on Wed Feb 05, 2020 2:12 am

    They are also upgrading Onyx missiles with the new high energy fuels developed for Zircon to improve performance and extend range... externally the Kh-22M looks identical to the Kh-32... they basically use the same airframe so I suspect performance improvements would be similar to new build missiles.

    The Kh-22M has two rocket motors... one a cruise motor and one a high thrust acceleration and climb motor, so really the fact that the Kh-32 flys much faster and much further than the Kh-22M is because of the improved fuel and motor design... upgrading an old model should allow you to get much better performance using already produced missiles.

    In the case of Onyx its ramjet propulsion limits its top speed to mach 5-6 or so, which means even with complete replacements it wont fly at mach 10 like zircon does no matter what you do... but mach 5-6 is good enough most of the time... why wouldn't you?

    Also making 32 of them might be a test batch... they normally upgrade all previous viable models to new designs where practical...
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    Post  flamming_python on Wed Feb 05, 2020 11:53 pm

    GarryB wrote:They are also upgrading Onyx missiles with the new high energy fuels developed for Zircon to improve performance and extend range... externally the Kh-22M looks identical to the Kh-32... they basically use the same airframe so I suspect performance improvements would be similar to new build missiles.

    The Kh-22M has two rocket motors... one a cruise motor and one a high thrust acceleration and climb motor, so really the fact that the Kh-32 flys much faster and much further than the Kh-22M is because of the improved fuel and motor design... upgrading an old model should allow you to get much better performance using already produced missiles.

    In the case of Onyx its ramjet propulsion limits its top speed to mach 5-6 or so, which means even with complete replacements it wont fly at mach 10 like zircon does no matter what you do... but mach 5-6 is good enough most of the time... why wouldn't you?

    Also making 32 of them might be a test batch... they normally upgrade all previous viable models to new designs where practical...

    Didn't they make the warhead smaller on the Kh-32?

    Or at least, they replaced all the electronics and sensors with much lighter modern ones
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    Post  magnumcromagnon on Thu Feb 06, 2020 12:54 am

    flamming_python wrote:
    GarryB wrote:They are also upgrading Onyx missiles with the new high energy fuels developed for Zircon to improve performance and extend range... externally the Kh-22M looks identical to the Kh-32... they basically use the same airframe so I suspect performance improvements would be similar to new build missiles.

    The Kh-22M has two rocket motors... one a cruise motor and one a high thrust acceleration and climb motor, so really the fact that the Kh-32 flys much faster and much further than the Kh-22M is because of the improved fuel and motor design... upgrading an old model should allow you to get much better performance using already produced missiles.

    In the case of Onyx its ramjet propulsion limits its top speed to mach 5-6 or so, which means even with complete replacements it wont fly at mach 10 like zircon does no matter what you do... but mach 5-6 is good enough most of the time... why wouldn't you?

    Also making 32 of them might be a test batch... they normally upgrade all previous viable models to new designs where practical...

    Didn't they make the warhead smaller on the Kh-32?

    Or at least, they replaced all the electronics and sensors with much lighter modern ones

    Probably the latter. Like the difference between TV's and computer monitors of the 90's and their flat-screen counterparts of the 2010's.
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    Post  magnumcromagnon on Thu Feb 06, 2020 5:04 pm

    GarryB wrote:They are also upgrading Onyx missiles with the new high energy fuels developed for Zircon to improve performance and extend range... externally the Kh-22M looks identical to the Kh-32... they basically use the same airframe so I suspect performance improvements would be similar to new build missiles.

    The Kh-22M has two rocket motors... one a cruise motor and one a high thrust acceleration and climb motor, so really the fact that the Kh-32 flys much faster and much further than the Kh-22M is because of the improved fuel and motor design... upgrading an old model should allow you to get much better performance using already produced missiles.

    In the case of Onyx its ramjet propulsion limits its top speed to mach 5-6 or so, which means even with complete replacements it wont fly at mach 10 like zircon does no matter what you do... but mach 5-6 is good enough most of the time... why wouldn't you?

    Also making 32 of them might be a test batch... they normally upgrade all previous viable models to new designs where practical...

    Speaking about Onyx, officially theirs something 50 Bastion-P Launcher vehicles, and lets say the modernized version of Onyx is simply fuel replacement (higher energetic/caloric fuel), which means theirs already 50 vehicles ready for the missiles. Simple but effective upgrade for Bastion-P, however another simple upgrade could take Bastion-P to much greater level....the introduction of a taller truck bed could triple the number of available missiles on hand.

    Take a look at the Bastion-P complex launcher compartment. As it is, the launch prone/ready TEL could approximately fit a third missile in between the two existing Onyx AshM's 



    With a taller carriage you could fit 6 improved Onyx missiles with Mach 5 speed and 1000km range would be quite formidable.

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    Post  JohninMK on Fri May 08, 2020 1:53 pm

    I know its the Drive but an interesting article on the US purchasing Kh-31 from the Russian manufacturer and using them as a target to test their defences.

    It's extremely important for any military to make its training regimens as realistic as possible to give its forces the best sense of the threats they might face in combat and how to respond to them. Unfortunately, developing high-quality surrogates for the weapons and other systems that potential adversaries might employ is not always easy and in some cases, it ends up being possible to just go to the source of the threat itself.

    The U.S. Navy faced just this predicament in the 1990s when it went looking for a high-speed target to simulate supersonic anti-ship and anti-radiation missiles and ultimately decided to just buy the MA-31, a derivative of Russia's air-launched rocket-ramjet-powered Kh-31 missile.

    In 1995, McDonnell Douglas first received a contract to deliver modified Kh-31A missiles as part of a Foreign Comparative Test (FCT) to see if they could meet the Navy's requirement for a Supersonic Sea-Skimming Target (SSST). The American company subsequently worked with the Russian manufacturer, Zveda-Strela, to develop the MA-31.


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    https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/33337/navy-needed-targets-to-mimic-supersonic-anti-ship-missiles-so-they-bought-real-ones-from-russia
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    Post  Singular_Transform on Fri May 08, 2020 10:01 pm

    JohninMK wrote:I know its the Drive but an interesting article on the US purchasing Kh-31 from the Russian manufacturer and using them as a target to test their defences.

    It's extremely important for any military to make its training regimens as realistic as possible to give its forces the best sense of the threats they might face in combat and how to respond to them. Unfortunately, developing high-quality surrogates for the weapons and other systems that potential adversaries might employ is not always easy and in some cases, it ends up being possible to just go to the source of the threat itself.

    The U.S. Navy faced just this predicament in the 1990s when it went looking for a high-speed target to simulate supersonic anti-ship and anti-radiation missiles and ultimately decided to just buy the MA-31, a derivative of Russia's air-launched rocket-ramjet-powered Kh-31 missile.

    In 1995, McDonnell Douglas first received a contract to deliver modified Kh-31A missiles as part of a Foreign Comparative Test (FCT) to see if they could meet the Navy's requirement for a Supersonic Sea-Skimming Target (SSST). The American company subsequently worked with the Russian manufacturer, Zveda-Strela, to develop the MA-31.


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    https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/33337/navy-needed-targets-to-mimic-supersonic-anti-ship-missiles-so-they-bought-real-ones-from-russia

    The USA bought even S-300 from Russia in the 90s.
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    Post  Isos on Fri May 08, 2020 10:23 pm

    Russia cancelled the sell quickly.
    GarryB
    GarryB

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    Anti-Ship Missiles Thread - Page 11 Empty Re: Anti-Ship Missiles Thread

    Post  GarryB on Sat May 09, 2020 9:18 am

    The MA-31 was amusing... I enjoyed that period of time it was so fun... because at the time there were plenty of pro America netzines telling me that the US already had supersonic targets and there was no way the USN needed the Soviets to make some supersonic targets for them to test against.

    They posted all sorts of drawings and mockups of all sorts of US equivalents of the Kh-31... but none of them came before the Kh-31, and none of them had the same level of performance.

    Most amusing is that the programmed for a supersonic target was aimed at getting the Russians to hand over Moskits... SS-N-22 Sun burn anti ship missiles, but the Russians weren't stupid... they entered a downgraded early model Kh-31, which still beat all the US competitors...

    The Russians were happy to sell old model Kh-31s because they were primarily Air Force weapons generally used for anti radar use, so the Navy didn't care if their design was compromised.

    The real funny thing is that the French/German ANS was suggested as being comparable... even though at the time it was still only a paper project that was heavier and slower and shorter ranged than the Soviet missile that had been in service for ten years by the time this debate had started.

    I seem to remember the ANS disappearing without being put in to service.

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    Anti-Ship Missiles Thread - Page 11 Empty Re: Anti-Ship Missiles Thread

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