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    Anti-Ship Missiles Thread

    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Sun Jan 06, 2019 5:39 am

    R-37 is rocket powered so it would be unpowered as it fell on its target at or near max range... the Kh-31 uses a ramjet, but with all the new work they are doing on scramjet engines they could upgrade it to a scramjet powered model with much higher speed and much greater range.

    Solid rocket fuel is expensive, while the Kh-31 uses kerosene...

    The kh-31 is very limited in use because if you want to achieve longer ranges (110km) you have to launch it pretty high exposing the fighter to SAM and the enemy ship will most likely see you at that range so it will know it is under attack.

    The R-37M is supposed to have a range of 300km from a high altitude high speed launch (from a MiG-31), so an anti ship model R-37M would be no great advantage... in terms of launch characteristics.

    Even chinese rejected the high-low trajectory of russian version and developed their own version with Low-Low trajectory but with shorter range.

    Russian missiles have the option of flying high or flying low... if someone told you this story about the Chinese rejecting it because they wanted it to fly low then they are lying to you or to themselves.

    The Russian missile could just as easily fly low all the way like the Kh-41 Moskit does, and of course shorter flight range will be a consequence of this flight profile...

    If anything I would like to see a sea-skimming torpedo launcher. I'm thinking of taking the Kh-35U, removing the standard warhead, and adding a stage that launches a (a smaller with far less propellant) Shkval torpedo missile in to the water. Kh-35U has range of 300km, a modified version of it could fly 290 km, and launch a shrunk Shkval torpedo for the last 10 km. Should be devastating.

    Or use the already invented Club missile with its rocket propelled mach 2.9 terminal missile... AFAIK the export model flys about 250km at subsonic speed... which sounds a little strange... the whole point of subsonic cruise missiles is their enormous range... I suspect the domestic Russian model has a subsonic flight range closer to 1,500km than 300km, as the models with subsonic flight all the way reach beyond 2,500km...

    The fundamental issue is that the R-37s is a large heavy missile carried currently by the MiG-31 and PAK FA. In the future it will likely be integrated to other aircraft as their radars are updated to AESAs so they can use the missile to its max range, but I rather suspect a future development of the Kh-31 with a scramjet would improve its performance well beyond anything the solid rocket powered R-37 could manage.
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    Post  Isos on Sun Jan 06, 2019 8:26 am

    magnumcromagnon wrote:
    Hole wrote:R-37: 4,06m long, 510kg launch weight, 60kg warhead
    Kh-31AD: 5,34m long, 715kg launch weight, 110kg warhead
    Kh-35U: 3,85m long, 550kg launch weight, 145kg warhead

    Not much difference. Why bother to develop an anti-ship version of R-37?

    If anything I would like to see a sea-skimming torpedo launcher. I'm thinking of taking the Kh-35U, removing the standard warhead, and adding a stage that launches a (a smaller with far less propellant) Shkval torpedo missile in to the water. Kh-35U has range of 300km, a modified version of it could fly 290 km, and launch a shrunk Shkval torpedo for the last 10 km. Should be devastating.  

    Small torpedo like the one on klub missile have very short range like less than 5 km.

    This one would be even smaller.

    R-37 is rocket powered so it would be unpowered as it fell on its target at or near max range... the Kh-31 uses a ramjet, but with all the new work they are doing on scramjet engines they could upgrade it to a scramjet powered model with much higher speed and much greater range.

    Agree but now kh-31 is very limited by its ramjet. At low altitude it has small range so launch aircraft has to come close.

    The good point of R-37 is that ot flies high and fast. Keep some fuel to accelerate it at the end and you will have a mach 4 or 5 final attack.
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    Post  Hole on Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:18 am

    Kh-31AD has a range of 260km launched from 15.000m.

    If launched from below 5.000m the range of the R-37 will be closer to 150km, even less when it has to fly close to the Ground/sea. And it has only a 60kg warhead. And a plane can´t carry more then Kh-31. No Advantages.
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    Post  Isos on Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:43 am

    Hole wrote:Kh-31AD has a range of 260km launched from 15.000m.

    If launched from below 5.000m the range of the R-37 will be closer to 150km, even less when it has to fly close to the Ground/sea. And it has only a 60kg warhead. And a plane can´t carry more then Kh-31. No Advantages.

    You are not honest in your statements. You compare range of a low flying r-37 with the range of a high flying kh-31.

    R-37 can fly at 25km altitude so it is a huge advantage since most air defence missiles or radars won't see it.

    Kh-31 launched below 5000m is nowhere near the 150km range of the r-37 too.
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    Post  GarryB on Sun Jan 06, 2019 1:41 pm

    Agree but now kh-31 is very limited by its ramjet. At low altitude it has small range so launch aircraft has to come close.

    The good point of R-37 is that ot flies high and fast. Keep some fuel to accelerate it at the end and you will have a mach 4 or 5 final attack.

    You say the Kh-31 has a short range with a low altitude flight profile... the R-37s range would be much much worse using the same low flight profile because rocket powered missiles have limited thrust curves.

    The R-37 is rocket propelled... it can't keep fuel for anything... once lit it burns... no stopping it or saving some for later...

    The Kh-31 would be better suited to a high lofted flight profile where it coasts a lot of the way ballisticly and then uses fuel at the end for terminal attack manouvers...

    As I mentioned... a new model with a scramjet motor could accelerate to much higher speeds too.

    You are not honest in your statements. You compare range of a low flying r-37 with the range of a high flying kh-31.

    R-37 can fly at 25km altitude so it is a huge advantage since most air defence missiles or radars won't see it.

    Kh-31 launched below 5000m is nowhere near the 150km range of the r-37 too.

    He is not wrong... the thicker denser warmer air at lower altitudes that reduce the range of the Kh-31 would be devastatingly more harsh on a rocket powered missile in terms of flight range and speed.

    The range given for the R-37 is for a high altitude high speed launch from the only aircraft that can carry it... the MiG-31.

    The figures given for the Kh-31 are for attack aircraft flying much lower and much slower.

    Very simply put a Kh-31 launched from high altitude and high speed could travel much much further and that is compounded by its jet engine...

    An R-37 has a high energy fuel and a lower energy fuel.. the high energy fuel burns first and very very rapidly and accelerates the missile to its flight speed... then the lower energy fuel starts burning... it helps the missile maintain speed rather than accelerate or climb but it burns dozens of times longer than the high energy fuel.

    At high altitude the R-37 fired at high speed, the high energy fuel accelerates it to top speed... mach 5-6 or so, but after 5-10 seconds that burns out and the lower energy fuel starts burning... it helps the missile maintain speed and might burn for a minute or more. The point is that if the missile only had the high energy fuel it might accelerate to mach 6 or 7 but it will rapidly slow down after the engine had burned out and so instead of going 300km it might only reach 180km or so.

    A low altitude launch at a much lower speed and the R-37 might reach mach 3-4, but more importantly it wont be able to climb to altitude where the air is thin and friction is lower so it will have less energy and momentum and much more drag all the way... a low altitude launch and the R-37s range would probably be less than 100km.

    With the Kh-31 there is a high energy solid rocket booster that accelerates the missile and allows it to climb but its ramjet is a jet engine and it can throttle it to optimise its flight performance... ie a relatively high throttle setting to allow it to climb, and then top setting to accelerate to top speed at an altitude where it can fly fast and then throttle back to coast to the target area...

    With a scramjet it will be able to accelerate to much higher speeds...
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    Post  dino00 on Sun Jan 06, 2019 3:12 pm

    I have never seen this on the forum so...

    An interview to Boris Obnosov ceo of KTRV(Tactical Missile Weapons Corporation) they incorporate raduga, npo Mashinostroeniya etc... in 17/08/2016

    This part:

    In the operation of the Russian Navy in Syria, the Caliber-NK and Caliber-PL missiles developed by the Novator Design Bureau distinguished themselves. Are there similar developments in KTRV?

    Yes there is. And significantly longer range. More, you know, I can not say.

    What is This??? Cant be zirkon from npo because of the range, a super oniks?Nah,  A sub/sea launched kh-101 from Raduga? Most probable. Cant be an improved kalibr because Novator is from Almaz-Antey corporation

    Other thing:

    In the Syrian VKS operation, the Kh-101 long-range air-launched cruise missiles of the KTRV developed and produced well. Is the modernization of these missiles continuing? What characteristics of missiles can be improved?

    Yes, modernization is coming. The direction of work is clear. This is an increase in range and increased accuracy.

    Its an old interview, but i didnt saw on the forum or read anywhere, if already posted and debated attack  dont BE mean lol1

    The full interview:
    https://rns.online/interviews/Glava-KTRV-ob-operatsii-v-Sirii-giperzvuke-i-oruzhii-dlya-dronov-2016-08-17/


    Last edited by dino00 on Sun Jan 06, 2019 6:13 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Mispelling)
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    Post  hoom on Sun Jan 06, 2019 4:36 pm

    I recall there was talk of a naval X-101 for UKSK but it seems unlikely to fit in a UKSK cell, being quite a bit fatter than Onyx which appears to be a pretty tight fit.
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    Post  GarryB on Mon Jan 07, 2019 9:04 am

    Actually the early specs I read for the UKSK launchers mentioned Kh-101 and Kh-102 missiles specifically... I was actually surprised to find they had the Calibr in them which is basically an upgraded SS-N-21 Grannat missile with terminal guidance and better accuracy allowing both conventional and nuclear warheads.

    (Note SS-N-21 Grannat missile as opposed to SS-19 Granit missile).

    Unification of missile types makes a lot of sense and it would be expected that the missiles would fit in the UKSK... the U meaning universal... the meaning of which is pretty clear...

    What is This??? Cant be zirkon from npo because of the range, a super oniks?Nah, A sub/sea launched kh-101 from Raduga? Most probable.

    Calibr NK and PL are both cruise missiles... the only air launched equivalents would be Kh-101 and Kh-102... NK being ship launched and PL being sub launched cruise missiles.
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    Post  dino00 on Mon Jan 07, 2019 10:29 am

    GarryB wrote:
    Calibr NK and PL are both cruise missiles... the only air launched equivalents would be Kh-101 and Kh-102... NK being ship launched and PL being sub launched cruise missiles.

    I know. My question was what should be the new missile from KTRV, most probable a kh-101 sub/sea launched.
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    Post  GarryB on Tue Jan 08, 2019 12:55 am

    Yup, so larger and heavier and with a more efficient turbofan engine for greatly increased flight range... though from a surface or sub launch its range might be reduced to 4,500km or so compared with air launched...
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    Post  Isos on Sat Jan 12, 2019 6:04 pm

    https://www.checkpointasia.net/russian-navy-hit-and-sank-a-decommissioned-frigate-in-syria-live-fire-drills-video/

    I don't know if this video was posted before but it's a good one. Back in april 2018, russian su-34 destroyed a syrian retired corvette with two kh-35.

    You can see the missile hiting the back of the ship targeting the propulsion of the ship.
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    Post  GarryB on Sun Jan 13, 2019 2:14 am

    Went down like a Norwegian Frigate hitting an oil tanker...
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    Post  nastle77 on Mon Jan 14, 2019 4:05 am

    Hello
    I just wanted to see if someone has any numbers of SSC-1 sepal TEL operational by 1990
    military balance gives only 40 TEL
    and here http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-Rus-Cruise-Missiles.html#mozTocId369687

    it says in 4 fleets soviets had 19 battalions of 15 TEL each so over 300 TEL

    huge discrepency

    any help appreciated
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Thu Mar 28, 2019 9:02 pm

    nastle77 wrote:Hello
    I just wanted to see if someone has any numbers of SSC-1 sepal TEL operational by 1990
    military balance gives only 40 TEL
    and here http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-Rus-Cruise-Missiles.html#mozTocId369687

    it says in 4 fleets soviets had 19 battalions of 15 TEL each so over 300 TEL

    huge discrepency

    any help appreciated


    I dunno but if question is valid i can try to do some research?
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    Anti-Ship Missiles Thread - Page 10 Empty Report about a smaller "Compact" version of the Tsirkon Hypersonic Missile

    Post  Cyberspec on Thu Oct 31, 2019 8:59 pm

    Report about a smaller "Compact" version of the Tsirkon Hypersonic Missile which is intended to equip the Corvettes of the Karakurt and Buyan-M class

    Anti-Ship Missiles Thread - Page 10 %D0%A1%D0%BD%D0%B8%D0%BC%D0%BE%D0%BA%20%D1%8D%D0%BA%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%B0%202019-01-22%20%D0%B2%200.35.24

    Arrow https://iz.ru/833837/aleksei-ramm-bogdan-stepovoi/kompaktnyi-giperzvuk-vmf-poluchit-oblegchennye-rakety-tcirkon
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    Post  PapaDragon on Thu Oct 31, 2019 10:01 pm

    Cyberspec wrote:Report about a smaller "Compact" version of the Tsirkon Hypersonic Missile which is intended to equip the Corvettes of the Karakurt and Buyan-M class...

    "Compact" version of Zircon has same range as standard Onyx missile? Suspect

    How much range does full size Zircon have then?

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    Post  Isos on Thu Oct 31, 2019 10:25 pm

    That's weired. Those corvettes have the same uksk as gorshkov frigate which is suppose to test fire the tzirkon this year. Maybe weight ?
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    Post  Cyberspec on Fri Nov 01, 2019 12:01 am

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Cyberspec wrote:Report about a smaller "Compact" version of the Tsirkon Hypersonic Missile which is intended to equip the Corvettes of the Karakurt and Buyan-M class...

    "Compact" version of Zircon has same range as standard Onyx missile?  Suspect

    How much range does full size Zircon have then?


    The assumption is that it uses the same engine but the other components are scaled down...including a somewhat smaller warhead, but apparently it will have not much smaller destructive impact


    Isos wrote:That's weired. Those corvettes have the same uksk as gorshkov frigate which is suppose to test fire the tzirkon this year. Maybe weight ?

    "...Also the rocket will be adapted for launches from a special container...."
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    Post  Hole on Fri Nov 01, 2019 10:50 am

    Sounds more like a follow-on to the Uran-M.
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    Post  GarryB on Sat Nov 02, 2019 1:34 am

    Probably a cheaper simpler lighter version that makes more sense on lighter smaller platforms like Corvettes, but also smaller aircraft like the Flanker series and also internally on the Su-57 or Tu-22M3M.

    It would be a standard design so able to be carried on existing types without modification.

    The Zircon is optimised for taking down carrier groups with excellent air defence capability, but Corvettes are not normally going to need that sort of system... but something based on that system could be made much more cheaply and would certainly be more effective against smaller less well defended targets.

    Lets face it... Uran is probably good enough for most targets, but a reduced size Zircon offers a margin of overkill which means a target a Corvette might fire 2-3 Urans to ensure a kill would only need one mini Zircon missile most of the time.

    This drone/cruise missile attack on Saudi oil production means the next new thing in western air defence will be defence from low level subsonic threats, so as new systems get in to service the effect of Uran type missiles is going to be eroded, but high flying hypersonic missiles are in a different category... and will likely remain so for a while.
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    Post  Cyberspec on Sat Nov 02, 2019 9:45 am

    According to the article, the idea is to make it even more difficult to approach the Russian coast by arming the smaller coastal defence ships with such missiles
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    Post  Isos on Sat Nov 02, 2019 10:10 am

    Hole wrote:Sounds more like a follow-on to the Uran-M.

    "...Also the rocket will be adapted for launches from a special container...."


    Karakurt and buyan-m have uksk launchers and can't use angled launchers. There is no special containers on them but a universal uksk that should be the same as on biger ships.

    So either the journalist has no idea what he is talking about and is mixing words from officials or Zirkon can't be used by uksk and only uksk-M will use it while they try to reduce the size for uksk.
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    Post  Hole on Sat Nov 02, 2019 10:38 am

    Most reporters don´t know what they are talking about. The guy in the graphics department had only silhouettes of Buyan-M and Karakurt and used them. I would say the "mini-Zircon" in the "special container" is posed for the Stereguschij, Tarantul and Nanuchka classes.
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    Post  GarryB on Sat Nov 02, 2019 11:54 am

    And that special container might be a 40 ft standard shipping crate, which means trucks and river barges and even aircraft can transport them around if need be...
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    Post  JohninMK on Thu Nov 07, 2019 5:08 pm


    Missile Tidbits
    ‏ @divert_thruster
    Nov 2

    Cutaway diagram from Russia's KTRV Tactical Missiles Corporation shows the Kh-59MK anti-ship missile in detail. Unlike earlier variants, the KH-59MK uses an active radar seeker and has a 285km range, and has seen modest success in export markets.


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