+53

Sujoy

mnztr

PapaDragon

Cyberspec

dino00

Hole

hoom

Admin

Azi

The-thing-next-door

Peŕrier

Tsavo Lion

Singular_Transform

GunshipDemocracy

zg18

AK-Rex

Book.

Isos

Arrow

kvs

Stealthflanker

Rmf

2SPOOKY4U

jhelb

Mindstorm

JohninMK

Big_Gazza

chicken

max steel

artjomh

sepheronx

nastle77

magnumcromagnon

Mike E

collegeboy16

Werewolf

etaepsilonk

runaway

flamming_python

medo

Rpg type 7v

George1

gaurav

Hachimoto

coolieno99

eridan

TR1

TheArmenian

Austin

SOC

Viktor

GarryB

KomissarBojanchev

57 posters

Go to page : 1, 2, 3 ... 9 ... 17

Anti-Ship Missiles Thread

Austin

Austin: Posts : 7618
Points : 8015
Join date : 2010-05-08
Location : India

Post n°1

Anti-Ship Missiles Thread

Austin Sun Jul 29, 2012 7:39 pm

Good Details on Brahmos and what ex US Navy officer think about Russian Brahmos and Sunburn

If nothing else, Russian involvement in the program should give us pause. Westerners have long ridiculed Soviet-built hardware, but the Soviet Navy was asymmetric before asymmetric warfare was cool. Soviet weapons scientists and engineers displayed impressive ingenuity, fielding an imposing array of anti-ship missiles. Some remain in service today, bedeviling prospective opponents. For instance, Sovremenny-class guided-missile destroyers transferred to China’s navy sport SS-N-22 Sunburn ASCMs designed to evade or overpower Aegis-equipped destroyers and cruisers. With its high speed and capacity to make radical evasive maneuvers during its terminal phase of flight, the Sunburn kept American air defenders up nights during my time in uniform—and doubtless still does so today. To all appearances, the BrahMos is cast in the same mold.

http://thediplomat.com/the-naval-diplomat/2012/07/27/indias-military-comes-of-age-the-brahmos-missile/

KomissarBojanchev

KomissarBojanchev: Posts : 1438
Points : 1597
Join date : 2012-08-05
Age : 25
Location : Varna, Bulgaria

Post n°2

Pictures of Kh-41 (P-270 Moskit) carried by aircraft

KomissarBojanchev Wed Aug 29, 2012 12:29 am

some people say that the P-270 could actually be carried by aircraft including the Su-33 while others say its ship-borne only. However the other official designation of this missile is kh-41 so that means its an air-to-surface weapon too.

I would really appreciate some pictures of the moskit loaded on to an aircraft so I can prove its AS capability scratch

GarryB

GarryB: Posts : 36388
Points : 36924
Join date : 2010-03-30
Location : New Zealand

Post n°3

Re: Anti-Ship Missiles Thread

GarryB Wed Aug 29, 2012 5:17 am

The Moskits shown at airshows suggest an air lunched variant... But I am not so sure they ever actually developed it into an operational weapon.

By the end of the 1980s they were already working on the Onyx and its Yakhont relative... after the Onyx was developed I really can't see them developing air launched Moskit.

Moskit is not much bigger than Onyx, buy Onyx is significantly lighter... 4.5 ton vs about 2.5 ton in the air launched models.

I have seen video of a very large belly mounted missile being launched from an Su-34, but couldn't tell if it was Moskit or Yakhont/Onyx.

Viktor

Viktor: Posts : 5814
Points : 6449
Join date : 2009-08-25
Age : 42
Location : Croatia

Post n°4

Re: Anti-Ship Missiles Thread

Viktor Wed Aug 29, 2012 12:09 pm

Some of the MIG-31 where able to carry Kh-41.

SOC

SOC: Posts : 576
Points : 623
Join date : 2011-09-13
Age : 45
Location : Indianapolis

Post n°5

Re: Anti-Ship Missiles Thread

SOC Wed Aug 29, 2012 9:58 pm

Viktor wrote:Some of the MIG-31 where able to carry Kh-41.

I think you're confusing the Moskit with the MiG-31D's Vympel-made ASAT.

Viktor

Viktor: Posts : 5814
Points : 6449
Join date : 2009-08-25
Age : 42
Location : Croatia

Post n°6

Re: Anti-Ship Missiles Thread

Viktor Thu Aug 30, 2012 2:39 am

SOC wrote:

Viktor wrote:Some of the MIG-31 where able to carry Kh-41.

I think you're confusing the Moskit with the MiG-31D's Vympel-made ASAT.

Perhaps, althrow I remember seeing Kh-41 "parked" by MIG-31 on some display the same way as we sow 3M-14E "parked" by MIG-31 on MAKS-2007.

GarryB

GarryB: Posts : 36388
Points : 36924
Join date : 2010-03-30
Location : New Zealand

Post n°7

Re: Anti-Ship Missiles Thread

GarryB Thu Aug 30, 2012 6:20 am

Might have been a joke...

The Mig-31 would not be tasked with any mission that would require Kh-41s.

The main carrier aircraft of such a weapon would be the Tu-22M3, but as posted on another thread the Tu-22M3 had the Kh-22M and now has the Kh-32 which exceeds the performance (and weight) of the Moskit.

There were plans for a naval Su-32, and talk of the Su-33 carrying the 4.5 ton 9m long missile, but considering the lack of money during the period I rather doubt they even actually bothered.

By the time they had the money they also had the Onyx, which is a more powerful missile.

The Chinese bought the Sunburn for their ships, which AFAIK are their only customer... as such vessels leave the Russian Naval inventory the requirement for the air launched model becomes less important.

If they haven't integrated it by now I doubt they will unless an export customer wants to pay for it. It makes rather more sense to integrate the Onyx/Yakhont and Kalibr missiles as they are compatible with the UKSK launcher going into every armed Russian navy vessel of Corvette and larger size.

The designation Kh-41 means it is an air launched model, whether it was every tested and integrated into an aircrafts inventory is debatable... the important thing is that the weapon is largely replaced by Brahmos/Onyx/Yakhont, which is available in air, land, sea surface, and sub launched models.

Viktor

Viktor: Posts : 5814
Points : 6449
Join date : 2009-08-25
Age : 42
Location : Croatia

Post n°8

Pictures of Kh-41 (P-270 Moskit) carried by aircraft

Viktor Thu Aug 30, 2012 10:55 am

Althrow MIG-31F/BM can be used in antiship role with its 6xKh-31A missiles.

Austin

Austin: Posts : 7618
Points : 8015
Join date : 2010-05-08
Location : India

Post n°9

Anti-Ship Missiles: Discussion

Austin Thu Oct 04, 2012 7:02 am

Aircraft Carrier Killers - Malakhit, Bazalt, Granit, Oniks, Brahmos, Club-K

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J-cm-f2JpiI

Austin

Austin: Posts : 7618
Points : 8015
Join date : 2010-05-08
Location : India

Post n°10

Re: Anti-Ship Missiles Thread

Austin Sun Oct 07, 2012 6:32 pm

Indeed the video is really nice , it really shows how far ahead in the race the Russians were when it comes to Anti-Ship missile when compared to ROW combined.

Look at the time line when Shipwreck were introduced at a time when the best Western antiship missile Harpoon and Exocet could just be subsonic and short range and small warhead size .......the ShipWreck were not only Fast Supersonic i.e M 2.5 but also had a long range of more than 500 km , could talks to each other via MMW datalinks ( clearly WoW ! ) and not only share information about each other in flight but also about the target ....they could all share each other picture on target and about each other relation position wrt target.

I mean these capability even after 30 years is really impressive as no other antiship missile even today can claim to have those capability ... to top it out it has ECM system to deal with SAM and could create false decoys !

And P-500 had a dual IR and RF seeker

Its a pity though Russian Oniks dont seems to have a dual mode seeker or an ability like Shipwreck to talk to each other ......neither does the Calbir.

Hopefully with Zircon-S they take the best of all the anti-ship missile and develop it.

TheArmenian

TheArmenian: Posts : 1883
Points : 2030
Join date : 2011-09-14

Post n°11

Re: Anti-Ship Missiles Thread

TheArmenian Sun Oct 07, 2012 8:14 pm

Austin wrote:
Its a pity though Russian Oniks dont seems to have a dual mode seeker or an ability like Shipwreck to talk to each other .....

Duh!...How can you say that? There is scant little information available about Oniks.

GarryB

GarryB: Posts : 36388
Points : 36924
Join date : 2010-03-30
Location : New Zealand

Post n°12

Re: Anti-Ship Missiles Thread

GarryB Mon Oct 08, 2012 6:17 am

I rather suspect that the Onyx has datalink capability... in fact I would say any Russian anti ship missile with a flight range that exceeds the radar horizon would by necessity have a datalink capability.

The thing is that in addition to chatting to each other the missiles use the satellite that provided the initial target data to upload their radar view of the target back to the launch platform.

I rather doubt that would be a feature they would include in the dedicated for export Yakhont AShM.

Mostki doesn't need it with a range of less than 200km.

Viktor

Viktor: Posts : 5814
Points : 6449
Join date : 2009-08-25
Age : 42
Location : Croatia

Post n°13

Re: Anti-Ship Missiles Thread

Viktor Mon Oct 08, 2012 9:33 am

Russia should advertise maritime targeting satellites with Yakhont/Brahmos class missiles as US does with Patriot.

Austin

Austin: Posts : 7618
Points : 8015
Join date : 2010-05-08
Location : India

Post n°14

Re: Anti-Ship Missiles Thread

Austin Mon Oct 08, 2012 9:42 am

TheArmenian wrote:

Austin wrote:
Its a pity though Russian Oniks dont seems to have a dual mode seeker or an ability like Shipwreck to talk to each other .....

Duh!...How can you say that? There is scant little information available about Oniks.

May be or May be not but atleast Brahmos does not have those datalink capability.

Without having datalink capability and the intelligence to share the big picture . Oniks would be able to travel in group and target assets of CBG the way Shipwreck does.

Russian havent advertised datalink or IIR sensors for Oniks

TheArmenian

TheArmenian: Posts : 1883
Points : 2030
Join date : 2011-09-14

Post n°15

Re: Anti-Ship Missiles Thread

TheArmenian Mon Oct 08, 2012 11:08 am

Austin wrote:

TheArmenian wrote:

Austin wrote:
Its a pity though Russian Oniks dont seems to have a dual mode seeker or an ability like Shipwreck to talk to each other .....

Duh!...How can you say that? There is scant little information available about Oniks.

May be or May be not but atleast Brahmos does not have those datalink capability.

Without having datalink capability and the intelligence to share the big picture . Oniks would be able to travel in group and target assets of CBG the way Shipwreck does.

Russian havent advertised datalink or IIR sensors for Oniks

Exactly. As a matter of fact, the Russians haven't advertised anything for Oniks. That doesn't mean it does not have datalink or any other (secret) goodies.
We simply can't discuss a subject by making assumptions on things we know nothing about.

GarryB

GarryB: Posts : 36388
Points : 36924
Join date : 2010-03-30
Location : New Zealand

Post n°16

Aircraft Carrier Killers - Malakhit, Bazalt, Granit, Oniks, Brahmos, Club-K

GarryB Tue Oct 09, 2012 9:16 am

Russia should advertise maritime targeting satellites with Yakhont/Brahmos class missiles as US does with Patriot.

Satellite time is expensive, and with the export limitations on range not really necessary.

May be or May be not but atleast Brahmos does not have those datalink capability.

Without having datalink capability and the intelligence to share the big picture . Oniks would be able to travel in group and target assets of CBG the way Shipwreck does.

Russian havent advertised datalink or IIR sensors for Oniks

Without a satellite link there is no way to target an Oniks at more than 400km range

The Russians haven't advertised Oniks at all, it is not for sale. Only the down graded export Yakhont is for sale on the export market... that is its purpose, and with a flight range of less than 300km it doesn't need a datalink or sat feed.

Most aircraft big enough to carry such a weapon will have a radar powerful enough to detect a ship at 3-400km anyway.

Exactly. As a matter of fact, the Russians haven't advertised anything for Oniks. That doesn't mean it does not have datalink or any other (secret) goodies.
We simply can't discuss a subject by making assumptions on things we know nothing about.

Well, what we can say is that Granit had these datalink capabilities in the 1980s and the Oniks was developed in the 1990s, and no doubt will have been given a further upgrade in terms of electronics thanks to India and its Brahmos joint venture.

Considering its flight range of at least 500km and I have read up to 750km ranges as estimates, it would need target data from another platform... and in the Russian Navy that is a satellite network. If it can receive target data via satellite then at the very least it has a datalink reception capacity.

They are replacing the Granit with Oniks in Oscar and Oscar II subs and the two Kirovs to be upgrades, so as it is a replacement missile for those weapons I would expect at least the same level of performance (ie packs of up to 12 missiles acting as a wolf pack), though the improvements in IT probably mean 32 or 64 missiles acting together.

Viktor

Viktor: Posts : 5814
Points : 6449
Join date : 2009-08-25
Age : 42
Location : Croatia

Post n°17

Re: Anti-Ship Missiles Thread

Viktor Thu Feb 21, 2013 1:09 am

Well, interesting stuff. Smaller Brahmos-M is in the pipe and Su-30 will be able to carry 3 of them, and Mig-29 two as opposed to

one Brahmos-A, Su-30 can carry.

The development of a smaller version of the supersonic missile "Brahmos"

20/02/2013 A joint Russian-Indian company BrahMos Aerospace began to develop a smaller version of the supersonic missile "Brahmos", said a source close to the Ministry of Defence of India.

"Weight of the new missile will be 1.5 tons, length - about six feet - the source ITAR-TASS. "It will be for the Su-30MKI and MiG-29, however, for this and for other military vehicles that are in service or to be taken by the Air Force of India, including aircraft Rafale and Mirage 2000" - he said. However, he stressed that it is not a missile "Brahmos" airborne ("BrahMos-A"), the test to be held later this year. "This is a different missile, - he explained. - If the Su-30MKI can install only one missile "BrahMos-A", then "BrahMos-M - three. MiG-29 - it will be possible to establish two missile" BrahMos-M. " According to him, "BrahMos- M "will be first tested at 1.5 - 2 years. Its range also be about 290 km. According to the newspaper VIEW, January 9, in the Bay of Bengal command warship of the Indian Navy successfully launched the Indo-Russian supersonic cruise missile "Brahmos". rocket flew 290 kilometers (almost maximum range) and by doing "double maneuver in the form S" hit the ship-goal at the level of one meter above the waterline, the source said, adding that the ship was "broken through." In October, the first deputy director of the NGO Engineering Alexander Dergachev said run an anti-ship cruise missile "Brahmos" submarine-scheduled for the end of 2012. Dergachev reminded that the missile "Brahmos" is designed to be versatile, able to start as a marine and surface and underwater vehicles, with a slope of 15 to 90 degrees, and from the ground. Machinery NGO representative said that by surface missile "Brahmos" is armed with 10 ships of the Naval Forces of India, each of which is eight to 16 missiles of this class. Russian-Indian joint venture "BrahMos "(NGO Organization Engineering and Defence Research and Development of India), established in 1998, specializes in the creation of supersonic missile ship and shore-based. missile "Brahmos" is designed to engage a wide range of marine purposes. It is characterized by high-range (up to 290 km) , hypersonic speeds (up to 2.8 m), a powerful combat load (250 kg), and low signature to radar. missile, whose weight in the base case is three tons, can be adjusted in height from 10 meters to 14 thousand . meters with respect to the trajectory. in new rocket into practice the principle of "fire - forget" - a goal she finds herself. According to experts, this unique missile, which would have the supersonic speed and a similar range in the world yet.

http://flotprom.ru/news/?ELEMENT_ID=138477

TR1

TR1: Posts : 5536
Points : 5542
Join date : 2011-12-06

Post n°18

Re: Anti-Ship Missiles Thread

TR1 Thu Feb 21, 2013 3:14 am

I wonder what the point is.
There is already Kh-31 with extended range for example.

GarryB

GarryB: Posts : 36388
Points : 36924
Join date : 2010-03-30
Location : New Zealand

Post n°19

Re: Anti-Ship Missiles Thread

GarryB Thu Feb 28, 2013 4:57 am

I wonder what the point is.
There is already Kh-31 with extended range for example.

Agreed... the French and Germans spent years talking about an anti ship missile that would be about 800kgs, would fly at Mach 2 with a 90kg warhead... they changed their minds several times and changed the name of it several times too but never actually got anything actually flying in the end.

In comparison the Soviets got the anti ship and anti radar Kh-31 into service and have managed to make it lighter and faster and cover a greater range than was envisioned by the European missile design.

There is no real benefit to creating a smaller Brahmos if it is going to replicate the performance of the Kh-31... it would make rather more sense to make a smaller Brahmos II hypersonic missile for tactical fighters and perhaps even helos and perhaps also a surface launched model for corvettes and perhaps conventional subs...

I remember seeing a photo that claimed to be a reduced size Kh-35 uran for smaller vessels over shorter ranges, which would certainly be useful, but a hypersonic missile would be even more useful.

I guess the main point of a smaller and lighter Brahmos would be to allow large numbers to be fired more rapidly to overwhelm the defences of any vessel/group of ships/land based target.

A missile designed to fit in the rotary internal launcher of the Backfire would certainly be useful... especially as that would mean the Blackjack should be able to hold 24 such weapons if needed in a conventional strike mission...

eridan

eridan: Posts : 179
Points : 185
Join date : 2012-12-13

Post n°20

Re: Anti-Ship Missiles Thread

eridan Thu Feb 28, 2013 10:11 am

How is a missile which has same range, same speed and 2-3 times smaller warhead for 2-3 times more missiles per aircraft not worth it? And how does that fall into same category as even the most advanced kh31 missile, which still falls short in range compared to that. Making a smaller brahmos for air launch makes perfect sense. Current air launched variant, even if it is a bit lighter than regular variant, is really too much of a missile for 90% of possible missions. Plus there is the whole saturation of target thing which may prove worth the extra cost if it means actually getting some missiles to the target, even in those remaining 10% of the missions. Even an undetonated missile can serious endanger a ship, let alone coupled with 100 kg warhead. 300kg warheads are often overkill, especially so if it means having less individual missiles carried and launched.

TheArmenian

TheArmenian: Posts : 1883
Points : 2030
Join date : 2011-09-14

Post n°21

Re: Anti-Ship Missiles Thread

TheArmenian Fri Mar 01, 2013 7:51 am

TR1 wrote:I wonder what the point is.
There is already Kh-31 with extended range for example.

Kh-31 is a decades old design that has been upgraded and re-upgraded. It can not be upgraded much more. While the Brahmos is new and has much more future potential. I bet the smaller missile, if it indeed is produced, will have a superior range compared to Kh-31 and be just as fast.

GarryB

GarryB: Posts : 36388
Points : 36924
Join date : 2010-03-30
Location : New Zealand

Post n°22

Re: Anti-Ship Missiles Thread

GarryB Fri Mar 01, 2013 9:04 am

How is a missile which has same range, same speed and 2-3 times smaller warhead for 2-3 times more missiles per aircraft not worth it?

When there is a missile already in service with similar flight parameters... the latest model Kh-31 in the anti ship/anti radiation model has a flight range of 250km, a flight speed of about mach 3, yet weighs about 650kgs... the Mig-35 could probably carry at least 6 of them, perhaps 8.

Redesigning it for scramjet propulsion could result in a significant increase in speed and range.

Not suggesting a smaller lighter Brahmos is a bad idea... just saying it already exists in the form of the late model Kh-31.

I honestly dont think the shkval is an effective weapon now and wont be in the future due to:
1. its extremely short range. A seahawk helicopter would destroy the submarine long before its in range to fire the shkval.
2. Its too noisy and will emmediately uncover the submarines approximate location.

The export model Shkval is unguided and is a short range self defence weapon that should be very effective as most counter measures take time to deploy.

Shkval is but one tool in the tool kit... in a few years time submarines could be equipped with the sub equivalent of the 9M100, the land based version is called Morfei... it will be an imaging infrared guided missile with lock on after launch capability... that sea hawk has a very noisy engine...

Longer range... better guidance... higher speed... it has a lot of potential.

I think AshMs like the klub and very long range high calibre torpedos are far more useful than submerged rockets.

Think of it in terms of aircraft... as everyone moves to more stealthy aircraft designs, then the usefulness of long range missiles diminishes because there is no point in having 500km range AAMs if the enemy planes can't be detected till they are within 10km... in which case the Shkval suddenly becomes a very potent weapon.

Kh-31 is a decades old design that has been upgraded and re-upgraded. It can not be upgraded much more. While the Brahmos is new and has much more future potential. I bet the smaller missile, if it indeed is produced, will have a superior range compared to Kh-31 and be just as fast.

I really don't see how that can be true... the current model Kh-31s use new fuels and new ramjet engines and new materials... there is nothing in the design of the Yakhont that makes it a better missile apart from scale allowing a larger warhead.

The new model Kh-31 anti ship version has a range of 250km in its export model... to scale down the Brahmos they would need to take out fuel and warhead and make a smaller seeker.... and basically make a Kh-31.

eridan

eridan: Posts : 179
Points : 185
Join date : 2012-12-13

Post n°23

Re: Anti-Ship Missiles Thread

eridan Fri Mar 01, 2013 11:22 am

GarryB wrote:
The new model Kh-31 anti ship version has a range of 250km in its export model... to scale down the Brahmos they would need to take out fuel and warhead and make a smaller seeker.... and basically make a Kh-31.

That is all news to me. What credible link supports those numbers? All i've found so far is kh31ad version - http://eng.ktrv.ru/production_eng/323/512/564/ where it claims 715 kg weight, 110 kg weight of warhead, 160 km max theoretical range. Practical ranges fired from 10 km altitude and with sea skimming last phase would be less, as also pointed out at the website. So where did 250 km figure come from? That is some newest version? kh31adm or whatever?

And it is wishful thinking that mig29/35 would carry more than 4 such missiles in any real world mission.

TR1

TR1: Posts : 5536
Points : 5542
Join date : 2011-12-06

Post n°24

Re: Anti-Ship Missiles Thread

TR1 Fri Mar 01, 2013 11:29 am

http://eng.ktrv.ru/production_eng/323/511/565/

As you can see the airframes range has no problem with 250km.

Anyways this "small" Barhmos is vaporware so far. When it actually appears, we can compare.

eridan

eridan: Posts : 179
Points : 185
Join date : 2012-12-13

Post n°25

Re: Anti-Ship Missiles Thread

eridan Fri Mar 01, 2013 12:05 pm

Ballistic range is irrelevant here. Missiles for s300 complex were tested in late 80s going over 300 km in pure ballistic profiles. Aim-54 could reach 300 km in a ballistic profile when properly launched but that is an useless figure.

Those same pages give actual, more useful ranges in practice, up to 160 km for actual antishipping range of actual antishipping variant. Why cling on a figure taken as theoretical maximum of an airframe? It is there black on white, why pick a different set of figures on purpose, figures that are not meant to be interpreted as practical range values?

It is much more useful to have a missile that will stay below the radar horizon for the whole 300 km of its flight range than one that will have to be fired at 15 km altitude, at mach 1,5, then go into a climb and painfully glide to squeeze out all energy to reach 250 km, leaving no energy for course correction (which may not even be efficient if missile is fyling too high) no energy for end manouvers and overall little chance of doing its mission since it was flying over the radar horizon, in a straight and steady trajectory, and took some 5-6 minutes to do it all, exposing itself to the target and possible interceptors.

A 1200-1500 kg brahmos-lite stands much better chances of actually completing its mission, and doing it from somewhat longer range.

Russia Defence Forum

Anti-Ship Missiles Thread

Anti-Ship Missiles Thread

Pictures of Kh-41 (P-270 Moskit) carried by aircraft

Re: Anti-Ship Missiles Thread

Re: Anti-Ship Missiles Thread

Re: Anti-Ship Missiles Thread

Re: Anti-Ship Missiles Thread

Re: Anti-Ship Missiles Thread

Pictures of Kh-41 (P-270 Moskit) carried by aircraft

Anti-Ship Missiles: Discussion

Re: Anti-Ship Missiles Thread

Re: Anti-Ship Missiles Thread

Re: Anti-Ship Missiles Thread

Re: Anti-Ship Missiles Thread

Re: Anti-Ship Missiles Thread

Re: Anti-Ship Missiles Thread

Aircraft Carrier Killers - Malakhit, Bazalt, Granit, Oniks, Brahmos, Club-K

Re: Anti-Ship Missiles Thread

Re: Anti-Ship Missiles Thread

Re: Anti-Ship Missiles Thread

Re: Anti-Ship Missiles Thread

Re: Anti-Ship Missiles Thread

Re: Anti-Ship Missiles Thread

Re: Anti-Ship Missiles Thread

Re: Anti-Ship Missiles Thread

Re: Anti-Ship Missiles Thread

Re: Anti-Ship Missiles Thread

Similar topics

Similar topics