Russia Defence Forum

Would you like to react to this message? Create an account in a few clicks or log in to continue.

Military Forum for Russian and Global Defence Issues


+39
PapaDragon
miketheterrible
dino00
Arrow
The-thing-next-door
mnztr
Hole
runaway
GunshipDemocracy
Peŕrier
Tsavo Lion
Isos
franco
Singular_Transform
hoom
Rowdyhorse4
kvs
sepheronx
Big_Gazza
max steel
Sujoy
Vann7
AlfaT8
magnumcromagnon
Werewolf
zg18
RTN
Mike E
collegeboy16
KomissarBojanchev
TheArmenian
Viktor
Russian Patriot
George1
TR1
Mindstorm
Pervius
GarryB
Austin
43 posters

    Submarine Warfare: U.S. vs Russia

    avatar
    southpark


    Posts : 91
    Points : 91
    Join date : 2019-03-31

    Submarine Warfare: U.S. vs Russia - Page 8 Empty Re: Submarine Warfare: U.S. vs Russia

    Post  southpark Sun Mar 31, 2019 5:14 pm

    Hole wrote:1. a LA or Virginia always stays with a carrier or amphibious group. It will stay 100 or 200km in front of the group or circle it and try to find enemy subs to prevent themfrom launching missiles. Just like a MiG-31 would try to soot down a bomber before it can launch his weapons.

    2. the first LA´s were pure sub hunters. Just like the Burkes were developed for AAW and ASW (against russian bombers and subs launching missiles). At the end of the 80´s they needed a new role and put a few Tomahawks onto the ships/subs. Then the 688I was developed with 12 silos and now the LA III or Virginia class has even more silos but in a large conflict there main task would be to hunt strategic weapon carriers and defend own battle groups.

    3. Arrow compared the numbers of the Virginia with the Yassen. I replied that it isn´t that easy. You have to compare their roles, that´s why I mentioned all the possible targets (Bulava, Poseidon and Kaliber/Zircon carriers) for the Virginias. Now someone brought up the LA class and french subs and so on.

    Western block (including Australia, Japan, Sweden): roughly 180 - 190 subs (around 80 with nuclear propulsion)
    Russia: some 60 - 65 subs (around 30 - 35 nuclear)
    China: roughly 70 subs (around 25 nuclear)

    Compared to the 80´s, when Russia had 375 subs and the rest of the world (including Amiland and China) had around 550.

    As an American, I would like to think that we do not factor the NATO allies fleet more than 20% in our ability to go on offense or defense. Countries as allies are like spouse's at the divorce time, true character comes out.....so we can more than match Russia's maximum reach in numbers and tech but where we lack at the moment is having some decent policy setters that has balls to optimize and oversee our engagements like where to fight, why we fight and what we are achieving. To me that is the problem more than any wonder weapons that Russia may throw at the world. The thing is decent strategists work with in the envelop of mutual respect for opponents and weigh their options...
    verkhoturye51
    verkhoturye51


    Posts : 438
    Points : 430
    Join date : 2018-03-02

    Submarine Warfare: U.S. vs Russia - Page 8 Empty Re: Submarine Warfare: U.S. vs Russia

    Post  verkhoturye51 Sun Mar 31, 2019 8:33 pm

    Kilos can go down to 300m. Just like Los Angeles or Virginia.

    Virginias go much deeper in reality, these are just official numbers. Russian wiki states cca 1600 ft or almost 500 m. There's a long list of reasons why a SSK can't compete with a SSN, starting from the form of hull that allows much less space for supplies, living quarters, sonar - everything is perfected for low endurance missions. Especially Paltus/Varshavyanka classes weren't designed for anti-submarine role and have a poor passive sonar.

    we can more than match Russia's maximum reach in numbers

    Democrats and GOP seem to agree that 355-ship navy is a must-have. All major navies are in the process of expansion, so the US is facing more opponents than just Russia, if it is to continue it's policy of global reach. On the other hand it's also clear that this goal is challenging, putting it mildly. And this is offtopic.
    avatar
    bolshevik345


    Posts : 39
    Points : 43
    Join date : 2019-03-31

    Submarine Warfare: U.S. vs Russia - Page 8 Empty Re: Submarine Warfare: U.S. vs Russia

    Post  bolshevik345 Sun Mar 31, 2019 8:55 pm

    verkhoturye51 wrote:
    Kilos can go down to 300m. Just like Los Angeles or Virginia.

    Virginias go much deeper in reality, these are just official numbers. Russian wiki states cca 1600 ft or almost 500 m. There's a long list of reasons why a SSK can't compete with a SSN, starting from the form of hull that allows much less space for supplies, living quarters, sonar - everything is perfected for low endurance missions. Especially Paltus/Varshavyanka classes weren't designed for anti-submarine role and have a poor passive sonar.


    Doesn't this contradict the physical capabilities of the materials that US sub hulls are made of?

    Also are the Russians covering up their real SSN diving depths too?
    Isos
    Isos


    Posts : 11367
    Points : 11335
    Join date : 2015-11-06

    Submarine Warfare: U.S. vs Russia - Page 8 Empty Re: Submarine Warfare: U.S. vs Russia

    Post  Isos Sun Mar 31, 2019 8:57 pm

    Hole wrote:Kilos can go down to 300m. Just like Los Angeles or Virginia. And below the surface you can shit on seaworthiness because there won´t be much waves. Mad

    A sub fight would take place with a speed around 10kn because otherwise you would give away your position. At that speed a Kilo/Lada is much quieter than a LA or Virginia. Also they use standard torpedo tubes which means they can use the same weapons as a SSN.

    In oceans, I think there are powerfull streams under the waves. Electric subs will have hard time going against that. To be checked I'm not a specialist.

    Indian kilo won against a LA class in shallow waters. But if it has to recharge its batteries it will need to turn on diesel engines which produce lot of noise and go at surface where noise can't be hidden under layers of salted waters.

    High speed of SSN allows them to escape more easily.
    verkhoturye51
    verkhoturye51


    Posts : 438
    Points : 430
    Join date : 2018-03-02

    Submarine Warfare: U.S. vs Russia - Page 8 Empty Re: Submarine Warfare: U.S. vs Russia

    Post  verkhoturye51 Sun Mar 31, 2019 9:30 pm

    Doesn't this contradict the physical capabilities of the materials that US sub hulls are made of?

    No, modern US and Russian nuclear submarines are both made of steel, allowing them to dive to about 500-600 m.

    Also are the Russians covering up their real SSN diving depths too?

    Exact crush depths are always classified, for the obvious reasons.
    PapaDragon
    PapaDragon


    Posts : 13362
    Points : 13404
    Join date : 2015-04-26
    Location : Fort Evil, Serbia

    Submarine Warfare: U.S. vs Russia - Page 8 Empty Re: Submarine Warfare: U.S. vs Russia

    Post  PapaDragon Sun Mar 31, 2019 9:38 pm


    Purpose of Kilos and Ladas is to cover Black Sea, Baltic Sea, Mediterranean (from time to time) and SSBN bastions in White and Ohotsk Sea

    These are all relatively small locations where limited range is not a problem

    By doing this they free up nuclear sub fleet to focus strictly on oceans (Pacific, Atlantic and Arctic)

    So yes, non-nuclear subs do count a lot and they do so as a method of enabling more efficient use of nuclear subs

    That being said Russia should definitely kick SSN/SSGN construction in high gear because right now they are definitely not getting required numbers
    magnumcromagnon
    magnumcromagnon


    Posts : 8138
    Points : 8273
    Join date : 2013-12-05
    Location : Pindos ave., Pindosville, Pindosylvania, Pindostan

    Submarine Warfare: U.S. vs Russia - Page 8 Empty Re: Submarine Warfare: U.S. vs Russia

    Post  magnumcromagnon Sun Mar 31, 2019 9:46 pm

    I'm surprised that we're even having debates over the lack of range of SSK's, when they're primarily used for coastal defense where port fuel depots are located not so far away.
    verkhoturye51
    verkhoturye51


    Posts : 438
    Points : 430
    Join date : 2018-03-02

    Submarine Warfare: U.S. vs Russia - Page 8 Empty Re: Submarine Warfare: U.S. vs Russia

    Post  verkhoturye51 Sun Mar 31, 2019 10:02 pm

    SSBN bastions

    scratch Smile

    Makes me smile every time.

    Bastions are 70s tactics because Soviet submarines were too loud to go in the mid Atlantic to launch their missiles. That's not an issue with Boreis anymore.
    avatar
    southpark


    Posts : 91
    Points : 91
    Join date : 2019-03-31

    Submarine Warfare: U.S. vs Russia - Page 8 Empty Re: Submarine Warfare: U.S. vs Russia

    Post  southpark Sun Mar 31, 2019 10:29 pm

    Not sure why the concept is not applicable now? Care to explain? It is still a very valid strategy for Russian's or Americans to hangout in various bastions where they are relatively in close distance to their other force components. Moving around may reduce the risk with respect to somethings but it may also increase the risk in other areas...they probably use both options now if noise was ever an issue at all.
    GunshipDemocracy
    GunshipDemocracy


    Posts : 6098
    Points : 6118
    Join date : 2015-05-17
    Location : fishin on Stalin´s Strait between Mexico and Canada

    Submarine Warfare: U.S. vs Russia - Page 8 Empty Re: Submarine Warfare: U.S. vs Russia

    Post  GunshipDemocracy Mon Apr 01, 2019 1:01 am

    southpark wrote:Not sure why the concept is not applicable now? Care to explain? It is still a very valid strategy for Russian's or Americans to hangout in various bastions where they are relatively in close distance to their other force components. Moving around may reduce the risk with respect to somethings but it may also increase the risk in other areas...they probably use both options now if noise was ever an issue at all.

    I agree, location that you can effectively defend and US cannot put any listening seabed devices in has its value. Not ot mention no ASW aviation loitering over .
    GarryB
    GarryB


    Posts : 39610
    Points : 40104
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Submarine Warfare: U.S. vs Russia - Page 8 Empty Re: Submarine Warfare: U.S. vs Russia

    Post  GarryB Mon Apr 01, 2019 1:39 am

    That being said Russia should definitely kick SSN/SSGN construction in high gear because right now they are definitely not getting required numbers

    Why?

    What a waste of money to spend on SSNs and SSGNs... what number do you think they will need that will be enough to make the US back down and stop being censored ?

    The defence of Russia from US carrier groups is via aircraft and land based and small ship based subsonic, supersonic, and hypersonic missiles... extra SSNs or SSGNs wont change that either way, but it will be bloody expensive to buy and to operate a much larger fleet of such vessels.

    A CVN would be very very expensive too but at least it gives you global access to world markets via the ocean and protects the money invested in the surface fleet too... SSNs do not do that... well they can assist in defending a surface fleet, but would not be much good for defence... they are attack weapons... SSNs are called attack subs.
    GunshipDemocracy
    GunshipDemocracy


    Posts : 6098
    Points : 6118
    Join date : 2015-05-17
    Location : fishin on Stalin´s Strait between Mexico and Canada

    Submarine Warfare: U.S. vs Russia - Page 8 Empty Re: Submarine Warfare: U.S. vs Russia

    Post  GunshipDemocracy Mon Apr 01, 2019 2:09 am

    GarryB wrote:
    The defence of Russia from US carrier groups is via aircraft and land based and small ship based subsonic, supersonic, and hypersonic missiles... extra SSNs or SSGNs wont change that either way, but it will be bloody expensive to buy and to operate a much larger fleet of such vessels.

    A CVN would be very very expensive too but at least it gives you global access to world markets via the ocean and protects the money invested in the surface fleet too... SSNs do not do that... well they can assist in defending a surface fleet, but would not be much good for defence... they are attack weapons... SSNs are called attack subs.

    Yasens make sense since they can pop up anywhere in the world and send 40 greeting to unsuspecting opponent. Russia has access to most of markets via land or Mediterranean too. only latin America is far. New Zealnd doesnt relly cound as we all know lol1 lol1 lol1
    PapaDragon
    PapaDragon


    Posts : 13362
    Points : 13404
    Join date : 2015-04-26
    Location : Fort Evil, Serbia

    Submarine Warfare: U.S. vs Russia - Page 8 Empty Re: Submarine Warfare: U.S. vs Russia

    Post  PapaDragon Mon Apr 01, 2019 2:52 am

    GarryB wrote:
    That being said Russia should definitely kick SSN/SSGN construction in high gear because right now they are definitely not getting required numbers

    Why?

    What a waste of money to spend on SSNs and SSGNs... what number do you think they will need that will be enough to make the US back down and stop being censored ?

    The defence of Russia from US carrier groups is via aircraft and land based and small ship based subsonic, supersonic, and hypersonic missiles... extra SSNs or SSGNs wont change that either way, but it will be bloody expensive to buy and to operate a much larger fleet of such vessels.

    A CVN would be very very expensive too but at least it gives you global access to world markets via the ocean and protects the money invested in the surface fleet too... SSNs do not do that... well they can assist in defending a surface fleet, but would not be much good for defence... they are attack weapons... SSNs are called attack subs.


    If building SSNs is waste of money then building CVNs is flushing money down the toilet and then pouring burning napalm after it

    Besides​, Russian trade moves by land not by sea

    Which means there is nothing to protect out there unless you are also of opinion that Russia should fight wars instead of usual Mideast and Latin American deadbeats who are too chickensh*t to do it themselves?

    Sponsored content


    Submarine Warfare: U.S. vs Russia - Page 8 Empty Re: Submarine Warfare: U.S. vs Russia

    Post  Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Wed Jul 17, 2024 11:09 am