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    Russian Tactical Air-to-Surface Missiles (ASM):

    marcellogo
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    Post  marcellogo Sat Jan 07, 2023 10:25 pm

    I think all of you are saying it right, each in its own way:

    Look, it's just for this reason this new kit came in 4 different version.

    In the not guided one toss bombing mode allow it to be precise until 7 km as in this range launch energy is sufficient enough to counteract outside forces.
    To reach 14 km range they add an inertial system that apply corrections to the asset.

    I think than in case of SAT guidance they didn't just use toss up from low quote anymore but start already in quote and even more with RAP.
    IMHO the real deal is the second mode, first useful but no such a big fuss, for the third and fourth better use specific made items.
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    Post  GarryB Sun Jan 08, 2023 3:21 am


    Wings on glide bombs are made to be impacted by the air flow so the wind will have hard impact on them.

    Perhaps you are confusing a wing with a sail?

    A side wind will effect a 250kg bomb pretty much the same whether it has wings or not because wings stick out sideways and therefore catch very little in the way of side drafts.

    If these glide kits had massive vertical tails then you might have a point but again a gyro would detect the turning and correct it by turning into the wind to remain on track.

    Same for rpg-7. 100% accurate at 50m but good luck touching anything at 1000m.

    Basic physics.

    Couple of things... chance of hitting things at 1,000m is zero because the rockets self destruct at about 930-950m. Second point... the rockets move at more than 380m/s so how far do you think the rockets will move off point of aim in about 3 seconds (the self destruction mechanism is part of the rocket motor... when it burns out the warhead is set off so it does not coast any distance in unpowered flight).

    Crosswinds can be observed and countered... the targeting reticule on an RPG-7 optic has a grid to counter the effect of a moving target but also the effect of a crosswind that is included in working out the aim point to use.

    Yes they need a certain precision. Even for carpet bombing. If your carpet bombing misses by 500m the target is still standing and you lost tens of bombs for nothing.

    There you are... missing THE target... if the target is one point then you use a guided weapon to hit it... a mortar and a sniper rifle are not interchangeable tools where you can use either or for any given target...


    Yeah so why does russian companies buy western planes with western autopilots

    They don't now, but mostly bribes or threats of sanctions.

    My point is no pilot, no computer controling the wings in a plane, you let that plane uncontrolled and it will quickly change its course. Same for gliding bombs.

    An autopilot can be as complex and expensive as you can make it, like western overpriced over engineered shit, but it can be very simple too... maintaining speed (in vehicles with engines), maintaining altitude, and maintaining a flight bearing... in which case it WILL NOT CHANGE COURSE... that is what an autopilot DOES.

    Ask any export customer of russian MiC if their weapons are as cheap as you pretend...

    They are just as expensive. So at the end they will buy western stuff. That's actually happening. They are loosing clients everywhere for western or 3rd party like south korean or japanese stuff.

    Western sanctions and laws like CAASTA suggest that when it happens it has nothing to do with the price or performance... Turkey has bought S-400s, India is buying S-400s... they both had a choice to buy anything they wanted.

    The west is getting more and more polarised and to be with them you have to buy their shit... especially their expensive shit like the F-35 that doesn't even really work properly yet. When Tempest fails and Europe is forced to buy F-35s think about that.

    For very cheap stuff China beats Russia.

    China is a production powerhouse, in some areas they compete very well, but in many areas they are only ahead of the west.

    I think all of you are saying it right, each in its own way:

    Look, it's just for this reason this new kit came in 4 different version.

    In the not guided one toss bombing mode allow it to be precise until 7 km as in this range launch energy is sufficient enough to counteract outside forces.
    To reach 14 km range they add an inertial system that apply corrections to the asset.

    I think than in case of SAT guidance they didn't just use toss up from low quote anymore but start already in quote and even more with RAP.
    IMHO the real deal is the second mode, first useful but no such a big fuss, for the third and fourth better use specific made items.

    Russia does not need to copy the west and has different requirements.

    Russia still sees value in short range unguided weapons so the shorter range glide kits are just replacing flying over the target area dropping dumb bombs.

    This is not to replace missiles because they would not use missiles for such targets... the two weapons they would use would be dumb bombs and dumb rockets both for targets spotted at the last few seconds or known to be located at specific coordinates at a specific time.

    Lofting rockets and gliding bombs allow the same targets to be engaged with the same cheap weapons with a bit of dispersion to spread out the explosives and fragments to better cover an area target.

    The medium and long range glide kits have guidance and would replace missiles like the old Kh-25 and the new Kh-38... the former missile only having a 90 odd kg warhead so most bombs would deliver a better payload, but the Kh-38 has a decent 250kg payload... if a target needs something heavier or the target is a large group of tanks then gliding cluster bomb units with anti armour bomblets would make more sense than a missile with the glide kit taking the munition to a point just short of the centre of mass of the armoured vehicles...

    The Grom 1 and Grom 2 are for long and medium range targets and has guidance too.

    They have more capability than western weapons yet still HATO fanboys cry that Russia must buy Indian or Chinese or Iranian weapons...

    Not to say those countries don't have clever weapons.

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    Podlodka77
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    Post  Podlodka77 Wed Feb 08, 2023 11:24 am

    February 8, 01:08

    The source reported on the effectiveness of the "air-radar" missile with a new "head" during the SMO

    It has a "universal warhead that can work on all types of targets"

    MOSCOW, 8 February. /TASS/. An air-to-air missile developed and manufactured by the Tactical Missiles Corporation (KTRV) during a special military operation (SMO) in Ukraine showed the highest efficiency thanks to a new universal warhead. This was reported to TASS by a source in the military-industrial complex (DIC).
    "The newest air-to-radar missile was equipped with the latest universal warhead capable of operating on all types of targets," he said.

    The interlocutor of the agency noted the success of its combat use during the NWO. According to him, the previous missile of this class had three different "heads", which were used depending on the target intended for destruction.

    In October 2022, another source in the defense industry told TASS that the air-radar missile produced by KTRV showed an efficiency of over 98% during the SVO. At that time, several dozen missiles were used, product indices were not specified.

    About the missile

    According to the catalog of military products KTRV, we can talk about an aviation high-speed air-to-radar Kh-31PD missile designed to destroy radar stations, anti-aircraft missile systems and systems. According to the booklet, the maximum launch range of the missile is 250 km, it can be launched from an air carrier from a height of 15 km, and the mass of the warhead is 110 kg. Its predecessor is the Kh-31P missile.

    Earlier, TASS also reported that during the SMO, almost the entire line of promising aviation weapons developed and produced by KTRV was successfully tested.

    https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/16989553

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    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Thu Feb 09, 2023 7:00 am

    An excellent opportunity to test experimental new and even older weapons against HATO equipment like battlefield radar and air defence systems.

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    Kiko
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    Post  Kiko Fri Mar 03, 2023 7:32 pm

    "Product 305" will change the principle of warfare, by Alexander Timokhin for VZGLYAD. 03.03.2023.

    The Izdeliye 305 rocket will open up new opportunities for the Russian Aerospace Forces in the NVO zone.

    The latest development of the Russian military-industrial complex is able to turn the situation that has developed in the air of the special operation zone. Russian aviation is acting extremely carefully to protect pilots and vehicles from enemy fire. However, the Product 305 - if used correctly - creates new rules for the game on the battlefield. In what way?

    The fighting in Ukraine was not easy for the Russian Aerospace Forces. On the one hand, Ukrainian aviation has no chance against Russian aircraft, and the statistics of downed Ukrainian aircraft is quite impressive. On the other hand, it has not yet been possible to completely suppress Ukrainian air defense. This is especially noticeable from the point of view of the work of aviation along the front line of the enemy.

    The result of this state of affairs was the method by which the front-line aviation of the Russian Aerospace Forces operates today. These are launches of unguided missiles from a pitch-up. Cabrating is a special maneuver, a kind of jump that a pilot makes to strike at a target. It provides greater security from enemy air defenses.

    However, this method has problems. Firstly, it still does not guarantee complete security from air defense. And secondly, such launches, to put it mildly, are inaccurate. There are too many factors to consider in order to put such a volley exactly on the target.

    But in a curious way, the same Russian Aerospace Forces have already tested weapons during the NWO, which can become our future means of working along the front line, and very accurate and powerful, with which you can safely work on the enemy on the line of contact (LBS). The problem of working on point targets on the battlefield completely solves. What is it about?

    "Product 305" and air support

    Let's formulate the task: you need to hit the target on the battlefield, but without flying up to the line of contact. Is there a weapon in the arsenal of the RF Armed Forces that can be used against targets moving across the battlefield, seeing their progress, controlling the means of destruction to prevent a miss, and at the same time keeping the weapon carrier at a safe distance from the front line? Yes, there are such weapons.

    "Product 305", known as LMUR, is a light multi-purpose guided missile. A product that (if its price is kept within acceptable limits) can become a real hit on the battlefield.

    LMUR - a rocket weighing 105 kg, carrying a fairly heavy warhead - 25 kg. Being retrofitted with special suspension units, it can be used by Ka-52 and Mi-28 helicopters. Also, several Mi-8 special-purpose helicopters were built for the FSB, capable of using an early version of this weapon.

    The missile’s range of 14.5 kilometers, as well as a very small loss of altitude when launched from a carrier, makes it possible to use it from a distance at which portable anti-aircraft missile systems, machine guns and small-caliber anti-aircraft artillery cannot reach it in range, and full-fledged anti-aircraft missile systems will be very it is difficult to detect an aircraft flying at an ultra-low altitude.

    The combat use of this missile since 2022 in Ukraine confirms this. The use of LMUR (at least, as far as can be judged from open sources) was safe for carriers - our helicopters.

    Was it effective? Yes, it is quite. The combat unit of the LMUR was quite enough to destroy any armored vehicle up to the tank and to destroy small buildings. Several missiles were used to destroy large objects. Some of the shortcomings of this rocket completely cover its main advantage - it can be controlled by the operator from the carrier in flight, like a drone, just a disposable one. And this gives our troops new opportunities.

    All helicopter anti-tank guided missiles and many aircraft air-to-surface guided missiles require the aircraft crew to first locate the target. And for this you need to be in line of sight with her. This allows enemy air defense systems to at least detect the carrier, as a maximum - if the range allows - to open fire on it.

    For a long time, the only missile that could be launched from an aircraft from outside the air defense zone, and then manually guided from its side, was the Kh-59 guided missile and a number of its modifications. But these are large and expensive missiles carried by the Su-24M front-line bomber and a number of other heavy aircraft. You can't use such a missile against a tank. It can only be spent on a serious purpose that justifies its cost.

    LMUR is a missile that can be used against a tank, but at the same time it gives the carrier the opportunity not to be in the line of sight with the target, remaining invisible behind the terrain at low altitude. If the position of the target, even a moving one, is approximately known, then the operator will find it through the missile lens and accurately point it, without even approaching the enemy.

    And this raises an interesting question. Why are our combat helicopters so "cool"? The same Ka-52 has powerful armor, ejection seats, and many more complex systems that it needs. What is this all for?

    For survival. Everything that is possible will shoot at the helicopter. Anti-aircraft missiles will be launched at him, anti-aircraft shells will burst in the air next to him ... if he works with his usual weapons - anti-tank and unguided rockets and guns. And LMUR takes him out from under fire. With this missile, he will operate from a relatively safe distance from fire from the ground.

    And this, in turn, means a sharp decrease in the requirements for the carrier - now the Mi-8 also has sufficient security, or even some hypothetical, now defunct light aircraft. What difference does it make if you have armor or not if they don't shoot at you?

    This should not be understood as a call to abandon full-fledged attack helicopters in favor of something else. But LMUR as a weapon gives Russia the opportunity to dramatically increase the number of strike units in aviation. And they will not risk under the fire of the Armed Forces of Ukraine, they simply have nothing else to do under this fire.

    You can put the control post directly in the cargo compartment of the Mi-8 and use these missiles from it. You can use them even with the An-2, if pressed. Again, this is not a recommendation, but simply a demonstration of the versatility of the weapon created. But one issue must be resolved, which, to tell the truth, has long been overripe.

    UAV for strike aircraft

    As mentioned above, if the operator knows approximately where the target is, then he will find it through the "head" of the rocket after launch. But if the accuracy of information about the target is insufficient? Then it simply will not fall into the field of view of a missile moving along the course, and it cannot maneuver like a winged drone.

    Since we are arming the aircraft with a missile that allows us to strike from afar, then we will have to share the strike weapon with the reconnaissance one. This means moving the “eyes” of an attack helicopter or aircraft forward, towards the enemy, to a place where our attack vehicle not only does not exist, but will never exist. Today, this can only be done with the help of an unmanned aerial vehicle (UAV). Moreover, the expensive, heavy and complex "Orion" is not at all necessary, something like "Orlan-10" is enough.

    "Orlan-10" cannot perform a joint flight with a helicopter or aircraft. But this is not necessary. Where there is enemy activity, forward air controllers (PAN) should operate. The latter may well, on command from an attack helicopter or aircraft, lift something like the Orlan into the air.

    And here we need that technical possibility, which is not difficult to implement, but which has not yet been implemented. The control of the UAV after takeoff must be transferred to the attack manned aircraft, from which the LMUR is launched.

    Then everything is simple. The pilots themselves conduct additional reconnaissance, starting from what they managed to find from the drone, use LMUR, record the results of the strike, and then return control of the drone to the ground group. All without approaching the line of contact. Almost no risk. And hitting targets with their missiles is extremely accurate.

    These things should be started right away. All the equipment for this is not only at the disposal of the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation, but has already been tested in battles, and there are weapons and aircraft. You just have to bring these things together. And then it turns out that no matter how much our country can produce expensive attack helicopters, the number of attacking units in the air can be increased many times over in a matter of months. For very little money. And losses, on the contrary, to reduce. If only there were enough of these missiles, which are not simple in design, the production of which must be increased as quickly as possible.

    The only task that such a missile cannot solve near the LBS is the defeat of dispersed infantry. But for this there are other solutions that are quite effective. But everything that can be attributed to point targets, including mobile units such as tanks and self-propelled guns, can be destroyed very effectively in this way. It's time to take advantage of these opportunities.

    https://vz.ru/society/2023/3/3/1201256.html

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    Post  GarryB Sat Mar 04, 2023 4:35 am

    Armour and self protection equipment are always needed for platforms operating in a war zone because they only have to surprise you once to kill you.

    And interestingly reading all that they say why not An-2/Baikal... I would ask why not an armoured vehicle...

    Russian Tactical Air-to-Surface Missiles (ASM): - Page 11 Ewr5e414

    Perhaps a pairing of one vehicle with missiles and one vehicle with drones and missiles... you wouldn't need a vehicle with 15 missiles and a vehicle with 15 drones because the drones are reusable and recoverable, so maybe a unit of 6 vehicles with 12 missiles each and two drones each... that would be 72 missiles and 12 drones per squad... maybe with a couple of Terminators for self defence and support against ground and air targets.

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    Post  Isos Sat Mar 04, 2023 11:07 am

    Such long range missiles are nice but what your image forget to show is that you need someone to find the target and have a direct and constant view on it to guided the missile.

    Then it's just cheaper to equipe that guy with a metis and blow up that target.

    Loitering munition are better than such long range missiles for most of the targets because it allows surveillance and a final attack.
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    Post  limb Sun Mar 12, 2023 1:45 am

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OQzAjCZr0BM

    This guy is fucking retarded

    He repeats the most ridiculous propaganda about russian missiles hitting toilets
    He basically omits the modern Kh-29 is IR guided.

    Idk why hes recommened as knowledgeabe by pro-russians on twitter

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    Post  Big_Gazza Sun Mar 12, 2023 9:26 am

    Isos wrote:Such long range missiles are nice but what your image forget to show is that you need someone to find the target and have a direct and constant view on it to guided the missile.

    Riiiiight... I guess you haven't seen any of the miles of footage of Russian surveillance drones spotting Ukie AFVs or SPGs/towed arty etc and calling in Lancets or Krasnopols? Razz

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    Post  GarryB Sun Mar 12, 2023 9:43 am

    This guy is fucking retarded

    The first few minutes he says he wont talk about the Russians because this channel is about technology and not about animals.

    Why did you post this rubbish here?

    Nazi lover propaganda belongs in the rubbish bin.

    Such long range missiles are nice but what your image forget to show is that you need someone to find the target and have a direct and constant view on it to guided the missile.

    That is why they talk about light aircraft acting like drones or why I talk about using drones along with missiles launched from vehicles on the ground.

    The Russians have shown they have mastered using drones flying high looking down and finding and monitoring targets and then using other drones like Lancet or guided artillery shells to hit said targets, so the use of drones for monitoring and finding targets coordinated with artillery or other missile types to destroy the targets makes sense and is being used in the field with success.

    What they could add are medium sized drones with much better optics and sensors like IIR sensors to find targets and monitor them from heights where the targets wont be aware they are being watched. The target information from such drones can be used by other platforms to mount standoff attacks with guided weapons from much safer distances.... Kh-38s could be launched from 30km plus (it has a range of about 40km) with a 250kg warhead it would devastate any target.

    Then it's just cheaper to equipe that guy with a metis and blow up that target.

    Launching missiles from a drone means with the information from the high flying drone a smaller lower flying drone could launch a smaller lighter missile towards a target from a most vulnerable angle... the new small missile called Bulat could be used to hit targets from medium range (4-5km) from a tiny drone... hit their sides and rear using stabilised lasers for guidance they are very accurate and the lighter warhead should still penetrate the rear of most tank turrets to get to the ammo and crew...

    The Bulat is quarter the size and weight of Kornet so you should be able to carry a lot of them... perhaps 10kgs each...


    He repeats the most ridiculous propaganda about russian missiles hitting toilets

    And also destroying civilian buildings on purpose... how many Orcs would be dead if they actually did that after 1 year of war?

    He basically omits the modern Kh-29 is IR guided.

    I didn't bother watching it past the first two minutes, but the Russians have a wide range of missiles they can use including new and old types.

    The Kh-29 has a 319kg warhead and is over the top for most targets, but it comes in TV and IR and laser homing models, but has largely been supplanted by the Kh-38 which has a smaller 250kg warhead and a 40km range (except for the cluster munition armed version with an 80km range).

    They also have LMUR and older missiles like the TV guided AS-13 and AS-18 as well as brand new weapons types of a range of types including also bombs and glide bombs and missiles.

    Idk why hes recommened as knowledgeabe by pro-russians on twitter

    Russians are animals for all the Orcs they are killing and they are hitting civilian apartment buildings on purpose because their weapons are shit... he sounds perfect for the doomer 5th columnists you seem to listen to...

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    Post  Isos Sun Mar 12, 2023 10:19 am

    Riiiiight... I guess you haven't seen any of the miles of footage of Russian surveillance drones spotting Ukie AFVs or SPGs/towed arty etc and calling in Lancets or Krasnopols? Razz

    I did. But such engagements involve the drone operator, the missile guy and some other commander on the front.

    They are not useless but are complicated to use. They are also more expensive than a suicide drone. They also can't loiter above the target, they will fly straight at high speed and if the operator doesn't find the target it will loose that missile for nothing.

    A metis or a kornet involves only one guy and the reaction time is 0s. See and shoot.

    And a Lancet can just loiter with a better range and flight path to find and attack the target from the best angle.
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    Post  TMA1 Sun Mar 12, 2023 11:57 am

    Limb knew the video would piss people off. He is not dumb. Just a little gay.

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    Post  GarryB Mon Mar 13, 2023 6:34 am

    They are not useless but are complicated to use. They are also more expensive than a suicide drone. They also can't loiter above the target, they will fly straight at high speed and if the operator doesn't find the target it will loose that missile for nothing.

    I would say the opposite... a surveillance and target detection drone is more expensive per drone than a suicide drone but you use a suicide drone for each target you find, so lets say $30K for a surveillance drone and $5K for a suicide drone... suicide drones are not used until you find a target so without the surveillance drone they are useless short range weapons. When you do find a target you launch a suicide drone or you fire artillery or send an attack aircraft with guided weapons to attack the target... your surveillance system, whether on the ground or in the air provides target data so the attack mechanism can be launched from standoff safe distances with a very good chance of a kill without even being detected or receiving return fire.

    The point is that 10 targets means 10-20 suicide drones to ensure kills you might need to hit some targets twice, but one surveillance drone could find dozens of targets because they are not destroyed when they find the targets and their target data can be shared with all sorts of platforms with HQ presumably deciding which attack platform to use to destroy the detected target.

    HQ will know how much ammo each attack method has on hand and the relative cost of each form of attack and can decide on which to use for most efficiency.

    They might have a ground based Kornet team nearby, or artillery might be the best suited or perhaps a suicide or armed drone that can hit multiple targets and return to be rearmed and reused... for the price of the fuel used...

    A metis or a kornet involves only one guy and the reaction time is 0s. See and shoot.

    When the enemy target is near the front line you could also pass target data to tanks and other armoured vehicles to engage with HE shells in direct and indirect fire modes, but the risk of having Metis and Kornet teams operating deep behind enemy lines to engage targets detected by drones would be too high... such teams would be horribly vulnerable.

    Ironically a 2S1 or 2S3 with a full digital upgrade and laser guided shells that is 10km away from the target could stop calculate angle and elevation based on its own position from GLONASS receivers and target information from the drone and fire a single shell which the drone could then mark the target with a laser as the shell approached the target for a direct hit on even a moving target... the SP artillery vehicle is not super armoured, but can stop for a minute and fire a single round and then drive away from that position very quickly.

    A Coalition could do the same to targets 50km away or more with its new ammo...

    A Smerch battery could do the same to targets 120km away... with the drone over the target marking it a single rocket or shell should do the job most of the time...

    The core problem is the enormous number of targets on a modern battlefield and the limited number of weapon systems that will already be supporting forces doing other things...

    And a Lancet can just loiter with a better range and flight path to find and attack the target from the best angle.

    Not really... they tend to use the higher flying drones to find the targets and then launch lancets for the kill... the Lancets don't loiter... those white wings makes them easy to spot and so they would have to fly low and fast nap of earth to get to the target... flying low means their ability to spot other targets would be poor... though the low flying altitude means HEAT warheads tend to do more damage in light vehicles because the horizontal strikes means penetration from front to back or side to side rather than top to bottom... you are more likely to hit ammo or fuel or people...

    But if you look at the drone footage of attacks the drone is watching the target for some time but the crew of the target often bail out several seconds before we see the Lancet drone come in and smack the vehicle so they are spotting them early enough to save themselves, but not fast enough to shoot them down... would be a self preservation thing I suspect.

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    Post  George1 Tue Sep 26, 2023 3:07 pm

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    Russian Tactical Air-to-Surface Missiles (ASM): - Page 11 Empty Russia has developed a new generation 80 mm unguided aircraft missile.

    Post  franco Sat Nov 11, 2023 1:34 pm

    Russia has developed a new generation 80 mm unguided aircraft missile. According to Rostec, the missile is equipped with a highly efficient engine and combines the properties of concrete-piercing and high-explosive fragmentation ammunition. Work on this project was carried out by specialists from NPO Splav.

    The new missile is capable of hitting both openly located targets and objects located in fortified structures or forests. A special feature of the development is the creation of multifunctional aviation ammunition, which has not previously been encountered in domestic and foreign practice.

    According to Rostec, the new unguided aircraft rocket is superior to all existing domestic and foreign analogues. The basis of the rocket is a new small-sized, highly efficient rocket engine, which opens up broad prospects for the creation of various types of rockets, including adjustable and guided ones.

    https://avia-pro.net/news/v-rossii-sozdana-unikalnaya-aviacionnaya-raketa-ne-imeyushchaya-analogov-v-mire

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    Post  Tolstoy Tue Nov 21, 2023 3:48 pm

    GarryB wrote:This is the first set of photos I have seen of the AS-17/Kh-31 with a solid rocket booster to allow it to be fired from slow moving aircraft like Helos or Su-25TM type aircraft.
    Yankees copied the AGM-119 from the Kh-31 isn't it?
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    Post  GarryB Wed Nov 22, 2023 2:49 am

    Yankees copied the AGM-119 from the Kh-31 isn't it?

    Honestly I had to look up the AGM-119, and according to Wiki that is a US licence production Penguin, which is a european anti ship missile that is subsonic.

    The American version of the Kh-31 is called the MA-31 which they bought from the Russians in the 1990s to test their air defence systems on their ships with... that is when they introduced ESSM and SeaRAM and didn't talk about Phalanx so much any more.

    The Russians have tried lots of times to make a Kh-31 type missile and have failed... the Kh-31 is not easy to replicate... even though it entered service in the 1980/90s.

    Edit: Oops... obviously that should read the west and the US have tried lots of times to make a Kh-31 type missile.... the Germans and French tried with the ANS and failed and the competition for the target missile for the US Navy that the MA-31 won had other competitors trying to do the same thing but they failed too.

    Ironically the Americans actually wanted a Moskit... an air launched Sunburn missile to test but the Russians would only let them buy very early model Kh-31 that didn't have the modern materials their own Kh-31 had so while the US complained that it did not fly very far it was still rather better than anything they could make then or now.


    I did. But such engagements involve the drone operator, the missile guy and some other commander on the front.

    They are not useless but are complicated to use. They are also more expensive than a suicide drone. They also can't loiter above the target, they will fly straight at high speed and if the operator doesn't find the target it will loose that missile for nothing.

    A metis or a kornet involves only one guy and the reaction time is 0s. See and shoot.

    Sending a drone to fly over enemy territory and look for enemy artillery or enemy armour moving forward to attack your lines is actually much safer than putting men on foot deep behind enemy lines with Metis or Kornet... of course if they see something they can fire at it but their speed on the ground is low and how much ammo do you think they will be carting around with them?

    In comparison a drone can cover vastly more area and fly high and see large distances in each direction and will be covering at least 100km per hour, and more often double that so it can search large areas  and see all sorts of things.

    When it spots an important target a suicide drone can be launched immediately to that location and hit the target, or nearby artillery can load up and use the coordinates from the drone to fire on the target with the drone lasing the target if necessary (for a target like a tank or artillery vehicle or air defence vehicle), or the artillery group can fire a full battery salvo at a group of enemy troops hidden in a forest or crossing a field.

    The point is that using recon drones covers more territory faster and can also be used to see how effective the attack is and while the attack method is being prepared it can continue to watch the target and see where it goes or if it hides where it hides (ie they go into a building ).

    The recon drone can lase the target for a suicide drone to hit, for a glide bomb to hit, for an artillery shell or artillery rocket to hit, or an attack helicopter or aircraft.

    We have seen Russian aircraft lofting rockets in 80mm and 122mm.... but they have laser homing rocket models now... they have been shown, so if a drone is over the target and an Su-25 approaches from 5km away and lofts a single rocket at the target area, if it is a laser homing model, the flight speed of the rocket is known so the pilot will transmit to the drone operator that he has launched the rocket so the drone operator can calculate when the rocket is coming down and activate his laser at the right time and boom you can kill point targets... whether that is a section of a trench, a vehicle, a building,  bunker, a sniper position... all done from a safe distance... and all done with one rocket that is cheaper than an ATGM.


    Last edited by GarryB on Thu Nov 23, 2023 2:54 am; edited 1 time in total

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    Post  lancelot Wed Nov 22, 2023 1:24 pm

    The US made the GQM-163 Coyote missile target to replace their use of the MA-31.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GQM-163_Coyote

    This uses a ducted ramjet and can hit Mach 3-4.
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    Post  ALAMO Wed Nov 22, 2023 2:02 pm

    They couldn't clone a 80s Soviet missile tech, so backed in time to the 60s and cloned Kub.
    Supa dupa missile.
    How sweet Laughing

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    Post  Tolstoy Wed Nov 22, 2023 4:12 pm

    GarryB wrote:The Russians have tried lots of times to make a Kh-31 type missile and have failed... the Kh-31 is not easy to replicate... even though it entered service in the 1980/90s.
    Rumor had it that the engineers behind the Kh-31 relocated to Ukraine. However, if this were to be true then Ukraine would have come up with a Kh-31, which they haven't. Probably there are other reasons why Russia could not make the Kh-31.
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    Post  Hole Wed Nov 22, 2023 4:24 pm

    GQM-163 Coyote
    More like Coyote ugly.

    Russia could not make the Kh-31.
    Suspect
    Completely modernised version is in serial production.

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    Post  GarryB Thu Nov 23, 2023 3:13 am

    The US made the GQM-163 Coyote missile target to replace their use of the MA-31.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GQM-163_Coyote

    This uses a ducted ramjet and can hit Mach 3-4.

    Hahaha... yeah, as Alamo points out, they can't copy a Russian missile from the 1980s, so they take an enormous naval surface to air missile from the 1960s...

    Its speed is mach 2.6 at sea level so it is slower than the Kh-31, it is also shorter ranged with the capacity to hit targets just over 80km away, but compare the nitty gritty... the Coyote is 5.6 metres long, but has a solid rocket booster to get it airborne and up to speed which makes the entire missile 9.5 metres long.

    They only stopped using the MA-31 because Senator McCain did not want America to use a Russian product... they don't mention the weight of the Coyote on that wiki page but it is bigger than Onyx with performance less than Kh-31.

    The specs for MA-31 is mach 2.5 at sea level in a 4.7m long missile that is less than 600kgs in weight that can be carried by light tactical fighters.

    They claim its range is 50km but the early model anti ship Kh-31 for export can hit targets at 70km and the newer models can reach 180km in the anti ship version. (the anti radiation models fly high all the way and can reach about 120km and 240km respectively in the old and new models).

    Rumor had it that the engineers behind the Kh-31 relocated to Ukraine. However, if this were to be true then Ukraine would have come up with a Kh-31, which they haven't. Probably there are other reasons why Russia could not make the Kh-31.

    Sorry, that was my mistake... Russia makes Kh-31s and they are very effective and they are working on improved models with the ramjet component replaced by a scramjet which should triple flight speed and greatly extend flight range.

    The difference between the Kh-31 and the Coyote is that a ramjet is mostly empty space, so the Russians filled that space with a solid rocket motor, which falls away when it has burned out leaving the empty space as the ramjet. This means it does not need an external solid rocket booster so it is much smaller and more efficient.

    The French/German ANS programme was an attempt to create the same thing and the Americans had a similar project too... but the Russians/Soviets were first by a mile because the SA-6 also used a combined rocket ramjet propulsion system too... in fact you could say the Kh-31 is an evolution of the SA-6...

    Solid rocket propulsion improved so the SA-6 was replaced with the solid rocket SA-11 BUK and then later models of BUK like the SA-17 and naval BUK missiles too... but I rather suspect the next generation might actually go back to the jet engine with a solid rocket booster and use a scramjet engine.

    Completely modernised version is in serial production.

    I posted the Combat Approved video showing it... put Russia when I meant to put the US and EU and the west.

    I should point out that missiles with a solid rocket booster are not bad.... the Pantsir and Sosna missiles use solid rocket boosters and slim low drag second stages optimised for gliding to the target, and appear to be excellent weapons... so the idea is not bad.

    I suspect the US Navy went to the Coyote because they have lots of old booster rockets left over from all their old SAMS, and this allows them to fit them into their VLS systems on their ships so they don't need to fly a Phantom to launch the missiles as targets.

    If it wasn't for McCain they probably would have kept buying them up until 2014 or the Ukraine war started.
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    Post  GarryB Thu Nov 23, 2023 3:25 am

    BTW if you look at the wiki page for the MA-31 it is rather interesting... like claiming the Kh-31 is based on the Moskit (I rather doubt the 600kg missile is based on the 4.5 ton missile at all).

    It also blames the Russian Duma from stopping the deal...

    This is Moskit:

    Russian Tactical Air-to-Surface Missiles (ASM): - Page 11 300px-11

    Russian Tactical Air-to-Surface Missiles (ASM): - Page 11 Imds-210

    This is SA-6 KUB:

    Russian Tactical Air-to-Surface Missiles (ASM): - Page 11 Tulaar10

    And this is Kh-31:

    Russian Tactical Air-to-Surface Missiles (ASM): - Page 11 Maks-210

    Russian Tactical Air-to-Surface Missiles (ASM): - Page 11 Russia17

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    Post  Tolstoy Thu Nov 23, 2023 6:32 am

    Hole wrote:Completely modernised version is in serial production.
    Which one is this?

    Kh-31P was the more advanced version.
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    Post  ALAMO Thu Nov 23, 2023 9:25 am

    The same one that is widely used in the ongoing war, being a standard load of any Su-35&30 CAP.
    Prefix "p" does not stand for modernized/new missile, but informs about version. P stands for "pasivnaya" - passive. It is a dedicated antiradar version. Longer ranged missiles were revealed in 2019 MAKS airshow, as AD and PD, where "D" stands either for "darobotana" or "dalnoboyna" - "improved" or "long ranged". Both are longer and heavier (700+ kg), but the range more than doubled to 250 km with high speed/altitude profile.

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