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    MiG-25 'Foxbat' Interceptor

    Giulio
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    Post  Giulio on Sat Dec 24, 2016 12:04 pm

    Yes, AFAIK, ir missile's best position is from behind in any case, but with an high speed target, the target's speed could give problems with a chase path missile, because the missile have to put itself in the target's tail cone before to chase it and the approach speed is the difference between missile and target. So some advanced missiles can pass, instead to chase, to a collision path, by anticipate the target. For do this, the missile requires guidance computer and target info (route, speed, angle ....). Also some IR missile can do this, like SARH missiles, because they receive target info by the aircraft fire-control untill their launch, so they anticipate the target in an head-on or a lateral engaging and, then, they pass to IR guidance, in order to save the time of the head cooling system (limited).
    The IR guidance in the stratosphere is exalted by very low environment's temperature and by the overheating of the target's engines and fuselage. The head cooling improves all this and makes missile less sensitive to IR-deceives (different light frequencies). An ir missile is also ECM-proof. The water (clouds) can hinder the IR view, but, in the stratosphere clouds there aren't (although not entirely true). Afaik, to engage a Mach-3 SR-71 with a chase path is almost impossible.
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    Post  nastle77 on Sat Dec 24, 2016 5:07 pm

    Indeed an orphan but the whole point of PDS update was to resolve this midlife crisis
    Granted not a perfect solution by any means but the mig 25 not sure which versions but did score a few f4 and f5 kills ...and Iraqis only had a few of them
    Imagine on the central front with 300 plus pvo mig25 avsilable many of them would be likely to be diverted to intercept strike planes along with their escorts As their cannot be su 27 and mig29 available everywhere.
    IMHO best strategy for mig25 is to use speed and acceleration to avoid the escorts fighters and use slash and dash tactics against the loaded strike planes.In the gulf war if used appropriately mig25 was a hard aircraft to kill required considerable effort to pin down and destroy ,when available in big numbers I'm sure they will be very disruptive to a intricately planned air campaign.
    Any thoughts ?
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    Post  Giulio on Sat Dec 24, 2016 5:48 pm

    central front of what?
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    Post  Svyatoslavich on Sat Dec 24, 2016 8:10 pm

    nastle77 wrote:but the mig 25 not sure which versions but did score a few f4 and f5 kills ...and Iraqis only had a few of them
    Iraqi and Soviet sources claim a F-14 shot down in the Iran-Iraq war; and in the First Golf War in 1991, a F/A-18 was also shot down by an Iraqi MiG-25-
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    Post  nastle77 on Sat Dec 24, 2016 9:06 pm

    Giulio wrote:central front of what?
    European theater 80s NATO vs WP
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    Post  nastle77 on Sat Dec 24, 2016 9:06 pm

    Svyatoslavich wrote:
    nastle77 wrote:but the mig 25 not sure which versions but did score a few f4 and f5 kills ...and Iraqis only had a few of them
    Iraqi and Soviet sources claim a F-14 shot down in the Iran-Iraq war; and in the First Golf War in 1991, a F/A-18 was also shot down by an Iraqi MiG-25-
    Yes and per Tom Cooper a few F4 in Iran Iraq war
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    Post  Giulio on Sat Dec 24, 2016 11:28 pm

    nastle77 wrote:
    Giulio wrote:central front of what?
    European theater 80s NATO vs WP

    No chances: the European theater in the 70-80s was such a mess that it would break out immediately the third world war, nuclear .....
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    Post  nastle77 on Sun Dec 25, 2016 1:06 pm

    Giulio wrote:
    nastle77 wrote:
    Giulio wrote:central front of what?
    European theater 80s NATO vs WP

    No chances: the European theater in the 70-80s was such a mess that it would break out immediately the third world war, nuclear .....
    Possibly but the point I'm trying to make is that just because the B70 was cancelled the mig25 was not solely limited to trying to shoot down b52 and sr71
    Even tactical strike planes if not very maneuverable are just as vulnerable, it's a useful role as it will free up other true tactical fighters for other missions
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    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Sun Dec 25, 2016 7:23 pm

    Did late model B-52s and B1Bs have enough countermeasures to render the R-40 AAM useless?
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    Post  GarryB on Sun Dec 25, 2016 11:33 pm

    Yes, AFAIK, ir missile's best position is from behind in any case, but with an high speed target, the target's speed could give problems with a chase path missile, because the missile have to put itself in the target's tail cone before to chase it and the approach speed is the difference between missile and target.

    It was the whole reason the Soviets and Russians developed IR guided models of their BVR missiles.

    Otherwise can you explain why there is an IR version of the R-27ET... why have a long range missile with a range of 60km that needs a lock before launch when the seeker wont lock onto a target more than 20km away...

    Very simply it uses all that extra energy and speed to chase targets down...

    Even more so for the R-40TD, though in the case of a target like an SR-71 it is able to lock on at max range with a closing target because of the enormous IR signature...

    So some advanced missiles can pass, instead to chase, to a collision path, by anticipate the target. For do this, the missile requires guidance computer and target info (route, speed, angle ....). Also some IR missile can do this, like SARH missiles, because they receive target info by the aircraft fire-control untill their launch, so they anticipate the target in an head-on or a lateral engaging and, then, they pass to IR guidance, in order to save the time of the head cooling system (limited).

    No, you are wrong... lots of simple IR guided missiles don't tail chase as they have a simple lead algorithm in their guidance systems.

    Very simply think about a missile approaching from the side... from its perspective the target is moving in its field of view... lets say from left to right. If it turns to the right eventually the target will stop moving from left to right because the missile is flying to a point ahead of the target and has adopted an intercept course... assuming the missile continues to move closer and closer to the target and the target remains stationary in its field of view then it should impact the target without knowing range or target location.

    It works the same way the mirror landing system on an aircraft carrier.

    Afaik, to engage a Mach-3 SR-71 with a chase path is almost impossible.

    The IR signature of the SR-71 is enormous and can be detected at extended ranges with an IRST. Head on shots are actually more practical in that case with IR guided missiles.

    In the gulf war if used appropriately mig25 was a hard aircraft to kill required considerable effort to pin down and destroy ,when available in big numbers I'm sure they will be very disruptive to a intricately planned air campaign.
    Any thoughts ?

    In the sort of conflict you are talking about (european) I would think such slashing attacks would be most effective against targets like AWACS and AEW as well as JSTARS types and tanker aircraft. There will likely be enough strike aircraft for them to keep busy with... plenty of Tornados and F-111s to deal with too.

    The MiG-31 is rather better equipped for these and other roles however...

    Even tactical strike planes if not very maneuverable are just as vulnerable, it's a useful role as it will free up other true tactical fighters for other missions

    Location location location... most MiG-25s in the intercept role would be located in places where strategic aircraft are found and tactical strike aircraft are not.

    Of course unarmed recon versions of the MiG might be instrumental in detecting targets worth hitting...

    Did late model B-52s and B1Bs have enough countermeasures to render the R-40 AAM useless?

    I doubt it...
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    Post  Giulio on Mon Dec 26, 2016 10:41 pm

    I highly doubt that anyone in Europe, in Soviet era, would have attack the Warsaw Pact, numerically superior, with NATO conventional bombers and tactical strike airplanes.


    KomissarBojanchev wrote:Did late model B-52s and B1Bs have enough countermeasures to render the R-40 AAM useless?

    From many decades ago, ecm/eccm - war had become so developed as to create real "invisibility" problems of the bombers, for the interceptors; already in pre-stealth era. American and Russian bombers have very very advanced ecm/eccm systems. Today stealth aircrafts, compared with this "old system", are less developed in ecm, because they are "invisible". Actually ecm/eccm warfare is always very important and constantly evolving. But today, for a bomber is almost impossible to break an heavily defended area that has not been previously hit, so: cruise missiles and standoff weapons.
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    Post  nastle77 on Tue Dec 27, 2016 9:56 pm

    In the sort of conflict you are talking about (european) I would think such slashing attacks would be most effective against targets like AWACS and AEW as well as JSTARS types and tanker aircraft. There will likely be enough strike aircraft for them to keep busy with... plenty of Tornados and F-111s to deal with too.

    The MiG-31 is rather better equipped for these and other roles however.
    .

    what is your opinion is the Mig-25PDS interceptor a threat to planes likes F-4E ?
    I mean against F-15 the Mig25 is clearly outclassed in a fighter duel but if the F-15 is carrying external offensive weapons then is the latter still able to take on the foxbat ?
    I think such a contest will end inconclusively and lead to strike fighters dumping their weapons to engage the Mig , as in 80s both AIM7 and R40 are SARH maybe the MiG has a slight advantage with IR R-40 but then the F-15 is more manuverable once it dumps its weapons

    apologize this question was for GarryB and supposed to be part of Mig-25 thread
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    Post  Giulio on Tue Dec 27, 2016 11:15 pm

    If the Mig-25 is making good use of is lead in altitude and speed, only an F-15 could be a danger. The F-4 has no chances at all. And also an F-15 he has to run and climb in a hurry, because of the altitude of the Mig-25. At that altitude the F-15's maneuverability does not matter. The F-15 has to climb and then go down and, I think, without drop tanks.
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    Post  nastle77 on Tue Dec 27, 2016 11:44 pm

    Giulio wrote:If the Mig-25 is making good use of is lead in altitude and speed, only an F-15 could be a danger. The F-4 has no chances at all. And also an F-15 he has to run and climb in a hurry, because of the altitude of the Mig-25. At that altitude the F-15's maneuverability does not matter. The F-15 has to climb and then go down and, I think, without drop tanks.

    but if the f-15 is the attacking strike fighter the mig-25 will have to go down to its level to intercept it ? the ground clutter will make its SARH missiles useless but the IR R-40 still have a chance ?
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    Post  GarryB on Wed Dec 28, 2016 9:14 am

    What makes you think SARH missiles don't work against low flying targets?

    The tests of the R-33 were from 6km altitude and a 20km distant target at 20m altitude and they got kills.

    Ground clutter is a problem for scanning... not tracking.

    The MiG-25 is an interceptor and the only two aircraft in the same class are the F-14D and MiG-31.

    Manoeuvre performance is not really relevant with interceptions... for the F-15E model dumping weapons means automatic mission kill so MiG can retire early from the fight.

    Of course talking about MiG-25 vs f-15 is like talking about Su-35 against C-17... if the job is dogfight the F-15 and Su-35 would win because they are dogfighters. The MiG-25 however would be rather more effective in the role of intercepting threats like SR-71 or valkerie bombers.
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    Post  Giulio on Wed Dec 28, 2016 9:55 am

    And wich kind of F-15 is attacking? F-15E? The F-15E can not drop in flight its conformal fuel tanks. The F-15a and C are very dangerous, but at the Mig-25 altitude, there is not air, so the F-15's maneuverability and engines are disadvantaged. The F-15 reach that altitudes in zoom climb, non in ordinary level flight. And the Mig-25 can launch missiles and then escape at mach-2,8 speed, so first you have to avoid missiles and then to chase if you can. (The high speed is also a defensive weapon). Meantime, its colleague, the one you had forgotten, he shots down you.
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    MiG-25 'Foxbat' Interceptor - Page 3 Empty Just a quick question does anyone know how effective the mig-25 was at bombing targets and does anyone know of any wartime action of this aircraft bombing targets.

    Post  d_taddei2 on Mon Aug 28, 2017 10:18 pm

    Just a quick question does anyone know how effective the mig-25 was at bombing targets and does anyone know of any wartime action of this aircraft bombing targets.
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    Post  Svyatoslavich on Tue Aug 29, 2017 12:07 am

    Just what I remember by memory from reading Yefim Gordon's book about the MiG-25: the RB versions had a sophisticated and precise inertial navigation system for its time, but still dropping unguided bombs at high speed and altitude is not very satisfactory. It was used by the Soviets to help Egypt in the Yom Kippur war, these planes were at high speed and altitude were invulnerable to Israeli defences and flew over the Sinai and Israel with total impunity.
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    Post  d_taddei2 on Tue Aug 29, 2017 8:25 am

    Svyatoslavich wrote:Just what I remember by memory from reading Yefim Gordon's book about the MiG-25: the RB versions had a sophisticated and precise inertial navigation system for its time, but still dropping unguided bombs at high speed and altitude is not very satisfactory. It was used by the Soviets to help Egypt in the Yom Kippur war, these planes were at high speed and altitude were invulnerable to Israeli defences and flew over the Sinai and Israel with total impunity.

    High speed and altitude was what I was thinking not ideal has aircraft been armed with guided munitions? I suspect that it was mostly used for recce missions
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    Post  GarryB on Tue Aug 29, 2017 12:48 pm

    They were pretty much considered grid square bombers... they were not that accurate but against area targets they were adequate.

    It would be interesting to see what effect the Gefest & T system would have to accuracy... they had to develop special bombs that could handle the heating from the high speed flight.

    From memory the RB version of the MiG-31 was supposed to be able to carry four belly and two wing mounted 1,500kg dumb bombs for a total of 9 tons of ordinance... that is quite impressive...

    Obviously a Tu-22M3 with up to 24 tons of ordinance is even better if not as fast...
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    Post  d_taddei2 on Tue Aug 29, 2017 10:38 pm

    GarryB wrote:They were pretty much considered grid square bombers... they were not that accurate but against area targets they were adequate.

    It would be interesting to see what effect the Gefest & T system would have to accuracy... they had to develop special bombs that could handle the heating from the high speed flight.

    From memory the RB version of the MiG-31 was supposed to be able to carry four belly and two wing mounted 1,500kg dumb bombs for a total of 9 tons of ordinance... that is quite impressive...

    Obviously a Tu-22M3 with up to 24 tons of ordinance is even better if not as fast...

    So hence they were never really used as a bomber. But impressive aircraft it will be interesting to see the mig-41 specs.

    One other thing it would be great if a mod is moving posts to another thread to let people know because you don't get alerted if there is a post. Just a quick msg on the original thread and a link would be fine.
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    Post  starman on Wed Aug 30, 2017 1:13 pm

    Svyatoslavich wrote:Just what I remember by memory from reading Yefim Gordon's book about the MiG-25:......It was used by the Soviets to help Egypt in the Yom Kippur war, these planes were at high speed and altitude were invulnerable to Israeli defences and flew over the Sinai and Israel with total impunity.

    Slight correction: MIG-25 flights over Israeli occupied territory occurred around 1971 not in the '73 war. Kosygin did show Sadat photos of the Israeli crossing operation but these IIRC were satellite photos.
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    Post  nastle77 on Mon Mar 30, 2020 6:00 am

    can the Mig-25R or RB carry the R-60 missile for self defense ?
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    Post  GarryB on Mon Mar 30, 2020 11:13 am

    No.

    The MiG-31 can carry R-60s on the twin pylon mounts, but carrying them limits the aircraft to much lower flight speeds than it is capable of... the missiles themselves normally fly at about mach 2.5 but operationally they only move at that speed for less than a minute... well at mach 2.5 they are moving at about 800m/s and they have an effective range of about 8km so they normally fly at mach 2.5 for about 10 seconds.

    Mounted under a wing and flying around at mach 2.4 for 20 minutes or more damages them... they were never designed for that... and MiG-25R and MiG-25RB move at that speed and faster for most of their flights.

    The bombs the MiG-25RB carry are custom designed to be carried at high speed for long periods.... they had to develop new high temperature fuses for the 1.5 ton bombs they use.

    It is interesting though because for many years the high altitude bombing system of the MiG-25RB was dismissed as useless... a bit like a scud missile... hard to intercept but not very accurate so you don't really need to intercept.

    Given time and technology and the new Gefest & T bombing system that can be added to old aircraft platforms... have heard about versions for the Backfire and Fencer and Fitters and ground attack Floggers, but they didn't really advertise it for the MiG-25... perhaps that is the platform they developed it for/on?
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    Post  nastle77 on Mon Mar 30, 2020 1:47 pm

    GarryB wrote:No.

    The MiG-31 can carry R-60s on the twin pylon mounts, but carrying them limits the aircraft to much lower flight speeds than it is capable of... the missiles themselves normally fly at about mach 2.5 but operationally they only move at that speed for less than a minute... well at mach 2.5 they are moving at about 800m/s and they have an effective range of about 8km so they normally fly at mach 2.5 for about 10 seconds.

    Mounted under a wing and flying around at mach 2.4 for 20 minutes or more damages them... they were never designed for that... and MiG-25R and MiG-25RB move at that speed and faster for most of their flights.

    The bombs the MiG-25RB carry are custom designed to be carried at high speed for long periods.... they had to develop new high temperature fuses for the 1.5 ton bombs they use.

    It is interesting though because for many years the high altitude bombing system of the MiG-25RB was dismissed as useless... a bit like a scud missile... hard to intercept but not very accurate so you don't really need to intercept.

    Given time and technology and the new Gefest & T bombing system that can be added to old aircraft platforms... have heard about versions for the Backfire and Fencer and Fitters and ground attack Floggers, but they didn't really advertise it for the MiG-25... perhaps that is the platform they developed it for/on?

    thanks so can they carry other IR missiles like R13M and /or R40 T ? or do they require special guidance ?

    and why was the PD/PDS cleared to carry the R60 then ?

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